Changing system from suckling

dasheriff

Im currently running a spring calving suckler to weanling system but to be quite honest im making fck all of a profit from it even this year im not going to do great..Now i love suckling and seeing the calves grow and all that but the time has come for me to be sensible and i have to change system and try a new system..Im thinking of going finishing heifers,I have a friend a buyer that would get them at the right price for me id finish them on grass or silage over 6 months,meaning id get 2 rounds in a year..Id be finishing them for the butcher market.. What do ye think of this,id love to hear yer opinions good or bad..

leg wax

what breeds of cows have you got and what bull do you use,what weights are weanlings at sale and what age, what mart do you sell at and what time of year.how many acres have you for grazeing,what are your weakness at what you are doing now.sorry for all the questions.

blue5000

Also what are the costs like? Is there scope there to increase profit? If cattle stay scarce margins for finishing heifers will be tight too.

dealerman

dasheriff wrote: »

,I have a friend a buyer that would get them at the right price for me ..

:D:D:D

caseman

dasheriff wrote: »

Im currently running a spring calving suckler to weanling system but to be quite honest im making fck all of a profit from it even this year im not going to do great..Now i love suckling and seeing the calves grow and all that but the time has come for me to be sensible and i have to change system and try a new system..Im thinking of going finishing heifers,I have a friend a buyer that would get them at the right price for me id finish them on grass or silage over 6 months,meaning id get 2 rounds in a year..Id be finishing them for the butcher market.. What do ye think of this,id love to hear yer opinions good or bad..

Finishing cattle is a very expensive business large volumes of meal is needed. Its very hard to finish cattle of grass or silage.
Have to agree with leg wax an blue look at what you could change in your curreent enterprise.

sh1tstirrer

caseman wrote: »

Finishing cattle is a very expensive business large volumes of meal is needed. Its very hard to finish cattle of grass or silage.

Baloney, I have finished Hereford, Angus and Friesian cattle off grass with zero meal. I also fattened dry cows on silage

caseman

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Baloney, I have finished Hereford, Angus and Friesian cattle off grass with zero meal. I also fattened dry cows on silage [/QUOTE
Probably can i'd leave the finishing to the fellas thats geared up for it.

bob charles

dasheriff wrote: »

Id be finishing them for the butcher market..

cash flow may be a problem dealing with the above. Would you be able to survive on 50c margin a day per head? 50e per finished animal is considered a good profit figure nowadays. Unless you are doing the buying yourself and spend a good few days a week sourcing cattle it will be hard to make a few quid. Not many survive the beef finishing business either big or small, be careful lots of sharks out there, me included:D:D

dasheriff

leg wax wrote: »

what breeds of cows have you got and what bull do you use,what weights are weanlings at sale and what age, what mart do you sell at and what time of year.how many acres have you for grazeing,what are your weakness at what you are doing now.sorry for all the questions.

Mainly limo cows,a few charlaois blue simmental etc.Use a good charlaois bull sell at around 7 months in october, useually at castleisland mart. I have 80 acres of fair quality grazing..Im not sure what my weakness is legwax i think i do everything right but im still making nothing..

dasheriff

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Baloney, I have finished Hereford, Angus and Friesian cattle off grass with zero meal. I also fattened dry cows on silage

That is what i was thinking, i was hoping you wouldnt need alot of meal to finish these kind of stock.. Do you finish alot of cattle sh1tstirrer, how do you get on at it?.

Angus4life

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Baloney, I have finished Hereford, Angus and Friesian cattle off grass with zero meal. I also fattened dry cows on silage

i agree i have all angus and i only use meal to get them out of the field:) on grass from 7 months at weaning until 24 months for bulls and 30 months for heifers i have doubled my profits.. i used to have sucklers but to i also had very little profit.!

Good loser

Suckling ties one down a lot.

Would prefer small store to big store.

In Bandon yesterday very small AA bulls and heifers were making €250 to €325. Could take 2.5 years to get those heifers to €900 on AVERAGE.

Dry cattle would leave time for off farm work - milking?

reilig

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

Baloney, I have finished Hereford, Angus and Friesian cattle off grass with zero meal. I also fattened dry cows on silage

What age would you be finishing them at - esp. the Freisans??
Years ago when we were in dairy we used to try to finish the friesians off grass but found that they often got to 30 months and unfinished. Grass would make them tall and lanky but never put enough flesh on them to leave a reasonable return from slaughter. (We always ended up giving them meal for the final few months to get a bit of flesh on them!!) Would imagine that Angus would be easier to finish off grass, but you'll still need 24+ months of feeding in them and what sort of prices would you need to be getting for animals that you have kept and fed for 20+ months??

dasheriff

looking at all these replies lad i dont know what to do..Have any of ye advice that if i stuck with the sucklers how to make it more profitable,im addled now at the moment..

pakalasa

You've really got to ask yourself, even if you do improve things a lot, will you make a decent living at it. Even if you were to improve your profit by say 100 Euro per weanling, would that be enough to live on.
Not to be negative but to be realisitic aswell. Maybe you should sit down and talk to an adviser.

reilig

dasheriff wrote: »

looking at all these replies lad i dont know what to do..Have any of ye advice that if i stuck with the sucklers how to make it more profitable,im addled now at the moment..

We had a suckler discussion group meeting and farm walk last week. It was very interesting. Farmer in question keeps 50 suckler cows and plans to expand to 60 next year - currently has 15 in-calf heifers. Full-time farmer. Nothing fancy around the place. A good sized slatted unit with a good sized bedded shed. A few points about him:

€20k of SFP.
€12k in REPS.
Profit for 2010 was €18k (not including SFP) Total Profit €38K.
REPS money is completely invested back into the farm (fencing, yards, sheds etc). Has own baler, wrapper, conditioner mower)
Farms 120 acres in Leitrim. 80 acres owned, 40 leased. Much of it is reclaimed bog. Poor enough quality of land, but well cared for. However 80 acres of half decent land would produce as much grass as his 120 acres.

His cows are all continental bred. 1/3 are ChaorlaisX or Limousinx. 1/3 are SalerX. 1/3 are BBX. He tries to breed replacement heifers with good maternal traits, however he admits that none of his heifers have any trace of Freisian because they are too narrow. He said that muscle is more important.

2010 Calves
32 Bulls
21 Heifers
All but 3 off his own Chaorlais Bull.
All born from December 1st to March 17th.
All sold in the field on October 10th.
Buyer divided the bulls in 2 groups - paid 2.40 per kg live weight for 14 of the bulls and 2.25 per kg for the rest of the bulls. The average weight of his bulls was 410kg. Lightest was 350kg, heaviest was 475kg.
He received €2.10 per kg for the heifers who had an average weight of 395kg.

He fed 6 ton of ration to his weinlings for the last 6 weeks that they were on his farm (This cost €1650).

Every year he culls out cows - particularly those that have the lowest priced calves at sale time.
Recons he saves thousands by not selling at marts - no commission, no weight losses in animals, no transport costs, no waiting around the mart for the day.

The question at the end of the day is how much profit do you want to make?
How much is your single payment?
What type of cows do you have?
What type of facilities have you got?

Would agree with Pakalasa. You need to sit down with a good advisor and weigh things up. Look at what can be done and see if it will be worth your while.

dasheriff

Thanks for that reilig that was very interesting and informative,he is doing alot better than me at a very similar system i would have thought,it shows i have alot to look at and improve a few questions if you dont mind..Is it a export buyer he deals with or is it dealers..i will definately go to an adviser but is it a teagasc advisor ye would recomend or private..and is it a standard mix beef nut ye give to yer weanlings or just a basic ration?

F.D

Rellig what will he do when his 12k reps cheque dissapears, that will eat into his profit on any investment he needs to make, i know he is hoping the extra stock will make up some of the difference, just wonder did he mention this himself, very good detail though thanks for sharing

dasheriff, ref the Advisor, ask locally who people use but also take it with a pinch of salt, if he is doing nothing only the same paperwork for them year after year, he may be no use which i am finding out myself with the private one i am using (highly recommended Btw), starting to think Teagasc would have been a better bet with the different advisors for the different sections,
Try and find someone like yourself, looking into different sectors of farming and see who they used,

reilig

F.D wrote: »

Rellig what will he do when his 12k reps cheque dissapears, that will eat into his profit on any investment he needs to make, i know he is hoping the extra stock will make up some of the difference, just wonder did he mention this himself, very good detail though thanks for sharing

He is cutting his costs year on year. He is reseeding 1/5 of his land every year to increase grass growth. Cutting down on meal and trying to achieve weights year on year. Ultimately increasing his profits and preparing himself for a cut in Reps and a cut in SFP. Its probably something that we should all be doing. This is the 5th year in a row that we visited his farm at this time of year and he is continually improving the quality of his stock, his facilities and his land and the changes are very visible. He has gone from having "ordinary" cattle 5 years ago which didn't yield profit above his SFP to having "exceptional" cattle at the moment which are starting to pay nicely. He knows that the grants won't be there forever. The thing about it is that he is an ordinary farmer making it work, as opposed to a Teagasc farm which has endless government money being pumped into it. Like any of the rest of us, he is going to be without REPS money sooner rather than later. He's preparing for that. He doesn't know what's coming, but he's hopeful.

Muckit

reilig wrote: »

€20k of SFP.
€12k in REPS.
Profit for 2010 was €18k (not including SFP) Total Profit €38K.
REPS money is completely invested back into the farm

Firstly, fair play for sharing all the info Reilig, it's much appreciated. Always good to get a few stats to weigh things up.

However, you'd be ate up and spat out if you went on Dragon's Den! The 12K REPS money couldn't really be considered 'Profit' in the business sense if it's invested back. It won't contribute towards putting bread on the table. But I understand that it's the way a lot of us farmers see things.

reilig

Muckit wrote: »

Firstly, fair play for sharing all the info Reilig, it's much appreciated. Always good to get a few stats to weigh things up.

However, you'd be ate up and spat out if you went on Dragon's Den! The 12K REPS money couldn't really be considered 'Profit' in the business sense if it's invested back. It won't contribute towards putting bread on the table. But I understand that it's the way a lot of us farmers see things.

REPS money wasn't counted as his profit (Sorry, my post kinda hinted that it was) He had 18k profit before REPS or SFP. He was clear that he totally reinvested all of his REPS money in order to improve the place.

No problem posting it up
I had a print out from the event which gave all the details.
I think we're very lucky to have the discussion group that we have - sensible leaders who are farmers themselves and know to keep things down to earth. We learn a lot from it.

reilig

dasheriff wrote: »

Thanks for that reilig that was very interesting and informative,he is doing alot better than me at a very similar system i would have thought,it shows i have alot to look at and improve a few questions if you dont mind..Is it a export buyer he deals with or is it dealers..i will definately go to an adviser but is it a teagasc advisor ye would recomend or private..and is it a standard mix beef nut ye give to yer weanlings or just a basic ration?

Export buyers are who he was dealing with. But I think that a lot of export buyers could be called dealers too.

We don't feed nuts at all. You never know what's in them. We feed a ration called Golden Thrive from Patton Feeds in Monaghan. Its good stuff. Quite a few around here feed it. Comes in at around 280 per ton but there is a significant discount for paying withiin 30 days

Pat the lad

reilig wrote: »

dasheriff wrote: »

looking at all these replies lad i dont know what to do..Have any of ye advice that if i stuck with the sucklers how to make it more profitable,im addled now at the moment..

We had a suckler discussion group meeting and farm walk last week. It was very interesting. Farmer in question keeps 50 suckler cows and plans to expand to 60 next year - currently has 15 in-calf heifers. Full-time farmer. Nothing fancy around the place. A good sized slatted unit with a good sized bedded shed. A few points about him:

€20k of SFP.
€12k in REPS.
Profit for 2010 was €18k (not including SFP) Total Profit €38K.
REPS money is completely invested back into the farm (fencing, yards, sheds etc). Has own baler, wrapper, conditioner mower)
Farms 120 acres in Leitrim. 80 acres owned, 40 leased. Much of it is reclaimed bog. Poor enough quality of land, but well cared for. However 80 acres of half decent land would produce as much grass as his 120 acres.

His cows are all continental bred. 1/3 are ChaorlaisX or Limousinx. 1/3 are SalerX. 1/3 are BBX. He tries to breed replacement heifers with good maternal traits, however he admits that none of his heifers have any trace of Freisian because they are too narrow. He said that muscle is more important.

2010 Calves
32 Bulls
21 Heifers
All but 3 off his own Chaorlais Bull.
All born from December 1st to March 17th.
All sold in the field on October 10th.
Buyer divided the bulls in 2 groups - paid 2.40 per kg live weight for 14 of the bulls and 2.25 per kg for the rest of the bulls. The average weight of his bulls was 410kg. Lightest was 350kg, heaviest was 475kg.
He received €2.10 per kg for the heifers who had an average weight of 395kg.

He fed 6 ton of ration to his weinlings for the last 6 weeks that they were on his farm (This cost €1650).

Every year he culls out cows - particularly those that have the lowest priced calves at sale time.
Recons he saves thousands by not selling at marts - no commission, no weight losses in animals, no transport costs, no waiting around the mart for the day.

to me reilig that type of info and example is what it's all about. that is worth 50 granges!!!
real live farm, with real live costs/budgets and targets- not buttered up figures so people find it hard to work out what's really happening.

plus it's on marginal land, which is probably where most of the suckler farming takes place!

great to see a farmer improve land and stock

would it not be better for teagasc/government to throw this type of farmer/ example a few grande to make his figures available or farm walks on similar farms etc, rather than blowing huge sum's on grange and the likes!!! that don't apply to 90% of suckler farmers?
maybe I'm wrong???

Thanks for sharing!

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

Thanks for sharing that info reilig. Really informative. Puts us thinking

pakalasa

Did a few calculations on Reilig's posting above.

Selling Price - 940E for 32 bulls, 830E for 21 heifers, average say - 895E
Meal - 1650E for 53 weanlings = 31Euro per animal. so 4% of selling price
Profit not incl SFP & REPS - 18,000E = 340E per weanling
Cost of keeping suckler Cow & Weanling = 895 minus 340 = 555Euro

So if he sells his weanlings at 700Euro, profit drops to 7,685Euro

reilig

pakalasa wrote: »

Did a few calculations on Reilig's posting above.

Selling Price - 940E for 32 bulls, 830E for 21 heifers, average say - 895E
Meal - 1650E for 53 weanlings = 31Euro per animal. so 4% of selling price
Profit not incl SFP & REPS - 18,000E = 340E per weanling
Cost of keeping suckler Cow & Weanling = 895 minus 340 = 555Euro

So if he sells his weanlings at 700Euro, profit drops to 7,685Euro

Speakers at the event reconed that he should be pushing for average prices this year that are closer to €1000 with the rise in cattle prices. This will see profit increase to €23500.

Tipp Man

pakalasa wrote: »

Cost of keeping suckler Cow & Weanling = 895 minus 340 = 555Euro

No wonder there is no money in sucklers.

This seems outrageously high by the way - what would all of you have as the cost of keeping cow and weanling??

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

No wonder there is no money in sucklers.

This seems outrageously high by the way - what would all of you have as the cost of keeping cow and weanling??

€550 is actually very low IMO. Look at all the costs that you have to add up:

Vet fees
Medicine
Silage costs,
Slurry costs
Meal costs
And all the various farm running costs from water charges, to ESB and hedge cutting.
Its been done to death here on boards in the past and the general consensus is that it cost at least €600 to keep a cow (nobody included the cost of the calf).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056033239

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

€550 is actually very low IMO. Look at all the costs that you have to add up:

Vet fees
Medicine
Silage costs,
Slurry costs
Meal costs
And all the various farm running costs from water charges, to ESB and hedge cutting.
Its been done to death here on boards in the past and the general consensus is that it cost at least €600 to keep a cow (nobody included the cost of the calf).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056033239

That's more than a dairy cow who will be stocked tighter (about twice as tight) and have at least 50-75% more output per cow (in EUR's and could be a lot more in high output herds) and will be getting meal and fertiliser for a lot of the year

600 a cow is an outrageous amount - surely this highlights just how inefficent sucklers really are??

Tipp Man

Looking at an alternative he could buy 120 400-450kg cattle in september/october and sell them the following year

this system would leave EUR 200 at the very very minimum (expect 220-250) which would give him a profit of 24,000 before any REPS or SFP. This is not a high stocking rate and he would not have to worry about calving etc and still gives 6,000 more profit than the suckler system

Dozer1

really good information to judge ourselves against, suppose the biggest thing I see is that he has the ability to carry 50-60 cows or more, not sure exactly but the average suckler herd is but its alot smaller than that. At that level of profit for the time and effort he puts in he's still behind the guy on the average industrial wage.

So for those of us with 20 cows and a few cattle farming will always be a labour of love unfortunately.

Muckit

Tipp Man wrote: »

Looking at an alternative he could buy 120 400-450kg cattle in september/october and sell them the following year

this system would leave EUR 200 at the very very minimum (expect 220-250) which would give him a profit of 24,000 before any REPS or SFP. This is not a high stocking rate and he would not have to worry about calving etc and still gives 6,000 more profit than the suckler system

Ah..... where exactly do the calves come from with your system? Dairy or do we import? :rolleyes:

Tora Bora

Tipp Man wrote: »

Looking at an alternative he could buy 120 400-450kg cattle in september/october and sell them the following year

this system would leave EUR 200 at the very very minimum (expect 220-250) which would give him a profit of 24,000 before any REPS or SFP. This is not a high stocking rate and he would not have to worry about calving etc and still gives 6,000 more profit than the suckler system

Easier done in Tipp, than in Leitrim:o

Tipp Man

Muckit wrote: »

Ah..... where exactly do the calves come from with your system? Dairy or do we import? :rolleyes:

Dairy of course

Not saying its the best system in the world but it less work and more money than sucklers

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

Looking at an alternative he could buy 120 400-450kg cattle in september/october and sell them the following year

this system would leave EUR 200 at the very very minimum (expect 220-250) which would give him a profit of 24,000 before any REPS or SFP. This is not a high stocking rate and he would not have to worry about calving etc and still gives 6,000 more profit than the suckler system

Interesting thought.

Do you have a breakdown on how you could make €200 per head on store cattle in 12 months with current prices (This would effrectively answer the OP's main question) ? I think if that was possible then a lot more people would be doing it.

Another point is that if this farmer was to keep 120 store cattle as opposed to 50 cows, he would need a lot more space and would have to invest more money to achieve it. Also, 120 acres of land in Leitrim will not feed 120 store cattle no matter how hard you try. You would have to be buying in silage and ration during the winter months to buffer.

I agree that in certain cases, there is more profit to be made from the same number of dairy cows. However, you have to factor in the following:

Cows (dairy and sucklers) have 6 month winters in Leitrim. Often housed in Mid October and released in early may. This isn't very suitable for dairying and would see dramatic reductions in milk outputs compared to those with much shorter winters.

Over the past 5 years, most farmers in Leitrim have had to house cows during mid summer because of poor weather. Again, this wouldn't suit dairy farming.


In short, suckler farming is more suitable to marginal land than dairying. There's no magic formula out there. 30 years ago, the vast majority of farmers in this area were dairying. However, their poor land and long winters meant that they were unable to achieve returns comparable to farmers on better quality land and ultimately had less profit. Sucklers were the best option and were chosen by most. The quality of the land hasn't changed since and our climate appears to have gotten worse so there is no going back for farmers like this. There are only 2 ways to increase profit:

1. Reduce your costs
2. Achieve higher prices.

He's trying to do both.

Tipp Man

Tora Bora wrote: »

Easier done in Tipp, than in Leitrim:o

I assume you mean that type of bullock isn't readily availabe in Leitrim??

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

I assume you mean that type of bullock isn't readily availabe in Leitrim??

I think he means shorter winters, cheaper feed, and better grass growth in Tipp.

Tipp Man

reilig wrote: »

Interesting thought.

Do you have a breakdown on how you could make €200 per head on store cattle in 12 months with current prices (This would effrectively answer the OP's main question) ? I think if that was possible then a lot more people would be doing it.

Another point is that if this farmer was to keep 120 store cattle as opposed to 50 cows, he would need a lot more space and would have to invest more money to achieve it. Also, 120 acres of land in Leitrim will not feed 120 store cattle no matter how hard you try. You would have to be buying in silage and ration during the winter months to buffer.

I agree that in certain cases, there is more profit to be made from the same number of dairy cows. However, you have to factor in the following:

Cows (dairy and sucklers) have 6 month winters in Leitrim. Often housed in Mid October and released in early may. This isn't very suitable for dairying and would see dramatic reductions in milk outputs compared to those with much shorter winters.

Over the past 5 years, most farmers in Leitrim have had to house cows during mid summer because of poor weather. Again, this wouldn't suit dairy farming.


In short, suckler farming is more suitable to marginal land than dairying. There's no magic formula out there. 30 years ago, the vast majority of farmers in this area were dairying. However, their poor land and long winters meant that they were unable to achieve returns comparable to farmers on better quality land and ultimately had less profit. Sucklers were the best option and were chosen by most. The quality of the land hasn't changed since and our climate appears to have gotten worse so there is no going back for farmers like this. There are only 2 ways to increase profit:

1. Reduce your costs
2. Achieve higher prices.

He's trying to do both.

There is no comparison between dairy profits and suckler profits and i'm not trying to convert every farmer in the country into dairy, far from it!! - what i was trying to do was to show that the costs associated with a suckler cow are outrageously high relative to her output - it simply doesn't make any sense that a suckler at 1 to every 2 acres costs as much as 1 dairy to every acre

The way things are gone in every kind of farming it is nearly impossible to get very high cost systems to be profitable and it is clear to me from the figures quoted that suckler costs are just too high to be profitable - if its costing 550 (and that is good) to keep a cow then suckling is finished in my opinion.

To use some figures for the system i stated - buy 400-450 kg bullocks at 850 a head. Winter costs - 5 bales @ 18 a bale is 90, allow 20 for all vetinary and 50 for fertiliser and 20 for slurry ESB etc giving total costs of 180 bringing bullock cost to 1,030. to make your 200 profit bullock needs to make 1250 after factory stoppages. This means the bullock need to kill out 365 when factory prices are 3.40 kg. That kill out is only an average carcase

I accept what you say about longer wetter winters etc in leitrim and more marginal land. Given these parameters do you think that sucklers will follow in the footsteps of dairy in leitrim and cease?

Tipp Man

I hope people don't think i'm being down on suckler farming - I'm not - the stock produced are absolutely fantastic and are a credit to suckler farmers in general.

I am looking at this from a purely EUR point of view and I just don't see any money in sucklers.

reilig

I don't agree with your costs for keeping bullocks below, but that's another matter.

When you compare dairying and sucklers, you have to realise that 90% of suckler farmers in this country farm what can only be described as marginal land, while 90% of dairy farmers farm good land. How can you compare costs? It would probably cost more to keep a dairy cow on the marginal land than it costs to keep the suckler - after all, she would eat more as she needs extra feeding for the higher milk output. Farmers who have sucklers on good land have much lower costs than those on marginal land.

I think that suckling is a much more suitable enterprise than dairying in leitrim and has long term prospects.

Tipp Man wrote: »

There is no comparison between dairy profits and suckler profits and i'm not trying to convert every farmer in the country into dairy, far from it!! - what i was trying to do was to show that the costs associated with a suckler cow are outrageously high relative to her output - it simply doesn't make any sense that a suckler at 1 to every 2 acres costs as much as 1 dairy to every acre

The way things are gone in every kind of farming it is nearly impossible to get very high cost systems to be profitable and it is clear to me from the figures quoted that suckler costs are just too high to be profitable - if its costing 550 (and that is good) to keep a cow then suckling is finished in my opinion.

To use some figures for the system i stated - buy 400-450 kg bullocks at 850 a head. Winter costs - 5 bales @ 18 a bale is 90, allow 20 for all vetinary and 50 for fertiliser and 20 for slurry ESB etc giving total costs of 180 bringing bullock cost to 1,030. to make your 200 profit bullock needs to make 1250 after factory stoppages. This means the bullock need to kill out 365 when factory prices are 3.40 kg. That kill out is only an average carcase

I accept what you say about longer wetter winters etc in leitrim and more marginal land. Given these parameters do you think that sucklers will follow in the footsteps of dairy in leitrim and cease?

reilig

Tipp Man wrote: »

I hope people don't think i'm being down on suckler farming - I'm not - the stock produced are absolutely fantastic and are a credit to suckler farmers in general.

I am looking at this from a purely EUR point of view and I just don't see any money in sucklers.

Not at all.

The example that I gave above shows how profit can be made in sucklers.

Remember that there is a huge difference in the amount of hours put in on dairy farms in comparison to sucklers. I wonder if you broke down your profits per hour worked on similar sized Dairy and suckler farms, which would be the highest?? As farmers, we look at profit, but we never look at how many hours of work were invested to achieve that profit?? I'm certainly glad that I don't have to get up at 6am every morning to milk, 7 days a week.

pakalasa

It does proove though, that it's well worth knowing ALL your costs, right down to the new handle for the shovel. That 30 euro spent on creep meal (as in the above example) and the 40 euro on AI (typically), are money well spent compared to all the other costs that contribute nothing directly to the bottom line profit.

blue5000

reilig wrote: »

€550 is actually very low IMO. Look at all the costs that you have to add up:

Vet fees
Medicine
Silage costs,
Slurry costs
Meal costs
And all the various farm running costs from water charges, to ESB and hedge cutting.
Its been done to death here on boards in the past and the general consensus is that it cost at least €600 to keep a cow (nobody included the cost of the calf).

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056033239

Hi Relig, it may have been done to death, but we never really came to a conclusion. Somebody with well set up buildings etc. is going to have more profit than other ppl who are still building up/making repayments on buildings. Would it make better sense to just work out the variable costs/cow first? By variable I mean costs like feed, fertiliser, vet, minerals. Not interest, depreciation, land rental and other fixed costs. Perhaps boards is not the best place to do this?

Tippman I don't think store cattle rise every year by 200e /hd. Last winter was probably a once off, maybe I'm wrong.....

reilig

blue5000 wrote: »

Hi Relig, it may have been done to death, but we never really came to a conclusion. Somebody with well set up buildings etc. is going to have more profit than other ppl who are still building up/making repayments on buildings. Would it make better sense to just work out the variable costs/cow first? By variable I mean costs like feed, fertiliser, vet, minerals. Not interest, depreciation, land rental and other fixed costs. Perhaps boards is not the best place to do this?

Is than not what was done in the thread that i quoted above ?

Muckit

Tipp Man wrote: »

Dairy of course

Not saying its the best system in the world but it less work and more money than sucklers

Is that system not f*cked with all the holstein and montemeilliarde been bred in? Would you not end up with bulls/bullocks that resembled clothes hangers?

I agree that a change of focus and the opening of another beef market would be great. As with everything it wouldn't be a system that would suit all lads.

I might be talking sh*t, but I think less emphasis should be put on extreme breeding just purely for milk in milking herds and a little consideration given to breeding with more balance, bearing in mind the it's not always a female calf on the ground. With a bit more freisain influence, a bull calf worth feeding through to say rose beef at 7-8mths would be acheived.

The reality is that Dairying is going to see more expansion in this country than any other farming system. I don't think beef farmers would mind jumping on the pig's back and rearing yer left overs if the males could produced to beef

dasheriff

reilig wrote: »

Export buyers are who he was dealing with. But I think that a lot of export buyers could be called dealers too.

We don't feed nuts at all. You never know what's in them. We feed a ration called Golden Thrive from Patton Feeds in Monaghan. Its good stuff. Quite a few around here feed it. Comes in at around 280 per ton but there is a significant discount for paying withiin 30 days

Thanks for all your information reilig and everyone else it has given me alot to think about any more advice is very welcome aswell thanks

leg wax

dasheriff wrote: »

Mainly limo cows,a few charlaois blue simmental etc.Use a good charlaois bull sell at around 7 months in october, useually at castleisland mart. I have 80 acres of fair quality grazing..Im not sure what my weakness is legwax i think i do everything right but im still making nothing..

can you put up pics of your cows bull and weanlings please,how do your prices compare to figures in thread for weanlings and weights.

mattthetrasher

i salute farmers producing quality stock but i have seen how lets say the 50 cow man has a margin on 50,you would finsh 100-150 stores more turnover then again if its profit we seek 120 acres of forestry @200/acre=24000 plus reps and sfp +tax free growth maybe were all nuts:)

reilig

mattthetrasher wrote: »

i salute farmers producing quality stock but i have seen how lets say the 50 cow man has a margin on 50,you would finsh 100-150 stores more turnover then again if its profit we seek 120 acres of forestry @200/acre=24000 plus reps and sfp +tax free growth maybe were all nuts:)

Personally, Farming is more than money. Its a way of live. I grew up with it and I want my kids to grow up with it. Forestry won't allow that. This sentiment isn't a great way to run a business, but its how a lot of farmers in this country think. While we aren't the cash richest sector in the economy, Farmers are asset rich and most of us dream of that day when we can live off the land when the world food shortage kicks in and the price of food doubles

mattthetrasher

reilig wrote: »

Personally, Farming is more than money. Its a way of live. I grew up with it and I want my kids to grow up with it. Forestry won't allow that. This sentiment isn't a great way to run a business, but its how a lot of farmers in this country think. While we aren't the cash richest sector in the economy, Farmers are asset rich and most of us dream of that day when we can live off the land when the world food shortage kicks in and the price of food doubles

i agree with you reilig but the system in place, of a fixed payment with no ties to effort is all f d up. that guy with the 50 cows must have things done to the t.but the reward does not reflect his effort imo.

centre 13

Milk dairy cows ..grassland technology has really moved on in last 5 years to enable managing marginal land..assuming a reasonable block of land is available..dairy cows rarely kill either.