smacking children.

Toots

chatterpillar wrote: »

This reminds me ... there was an interview on the radio earlier with some man who has written a novel based around a child being smacked by his parents and the parents getting in trouble for it, I'm not sure of the details, was tuning in and out between different stations at the time!

Not to go too OT, but I think the book you're talking about is called The Slap by Christos Tsiolkas, I think it won some sort of prize recently. I read it a few months ago and it is a good read, although quite crude in parts. The big hoo-ha in that book is caused by a troublesome child getting a slap from someone who is not their parent, and the parents then try to have them (the person who slapped the child) prosecuted. Basically it goes between a few people's perspectives and shows how the aftermath affects them. Worth a read.

Ayla

nesf wrote: »

...That doesn't mean that any argument you pull up against smacking will always make sense or be reasonable. That's my issue with your post, not that you're against smacking.

The issue is whether it's acceptable as a last resort method of discipline when other methods have failed...

Khannie wrote: »

I'd disagree that you're just having your say. I'm not being disrespectful, but your posts on the issue smack (no pun intended) of drama IMO...

Ok, let me make one last stab at explaining my "illogical" & "unreasonable" position:

Believe it or not, my point in bringing the other types of hitting into this discussion was not to be dramatic or sensationalist. It was to highlight the fact that the vast majority of people believe that it is never appropriate to hit an adult for any reason, but some people seem to think it fine to hit a defenceless child in the name of discipline. The legal system & society comes down hard on a spouse who hits their partner, but everyone looks the other way when a parent strikes their kid. This double standard is what I've been trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to get across.

e.g.: It's not ok to hit someone who knows better, but it is ok to hit someone who doesn't.

Christ, and I'm the illogical one?

No one knows what the long-term emotional/mental/psycological damage an occasional smack does or does not do to a child. Those of us who were hit wouldn't know what it's like not to have been, and those adults who weren't smacked wouldn't know what they'd be like now if they had been. It's purely hypothetical speculation to say someone would turn out better/worse if they were/were not physically disciplined.

As far as the core issue of privacy...sure, I don't want anyone telling me how to parent my kids, and I'd probably not say anything to the adult in the OP. But I'd be damn sure to make sure that kid was ok coming out of the stall.

nesf

Ayla wrote: »

The legal system & society comes down hard on a spouse who hits their partner, but everyone looks the other way when a parent strikes their kid. This double standard is what I've been trying (obviously unsuccessfully) to get across.

If I lightly smacked my wife the court wouldn't do anything about it (though my wife would definitely leave me! ). I'd have to cause bodily harm before I'd be breaking any laws. Bruising etc. You're lumping a light smack in with a full-on punch or beating someone with a bat there.

Ayla

Yeah, I got ya...I know you're seeing a difference between a hit and a hit. I do too, believe it or not. I'm not talking about abuse here, that's a completely different thing.

But are you telling me that if you were out with friends & you saw a mate lightly hit his wife & tell her to "wise up" you wouldn't step in?

I do appreciate how you've completely sidestepped/missed the entire point I was making.

carfiosaoorl

My kids are 11, 10 and 3 and I can truthfully say I have often felt like smacking them but I dont and wont. Smacking an adult is assault, smacking a child is assault simple as.

nesf

Ayla wrote: »

Yeah, I got ya...I know you're seeing a difference between a hit and a hit. I do too, believe it or not. I'm not talking about abuse here, that's a completely different thing.

But are you telling me that if you were out with friends & you saw a mate lightly hit his wife & tell her to "wise up" you wouldn't step in?

I do appreciate how you've completely sidestepped/missed the entire point I was making.

I've seen women lightly slap their husbands to ward them away from something or to get their attention. Should this be unacceptable?

I wasn't really ignoring it, I was pointing out that there are gradations of "hit" and making a broad sweeping statement like "it's never acceptable to hit an adult" doesn't really work. It's not socially acceptable sure for a man to slap a woman but I've seen the opposite quite a few times between couples and no one's batted an eyelid over it.

cynder

I nudge my husband with my elbow to get his attention, we play fight as well.......

storker

Ayla wrote: »

But that's my point from my earlier posts:

If you condone a light smack to a misbehaving child, would you condone a light smack to a woman by her partner, or a light smack to a person with disabilities? You cannot seperate the instances, they are the exact same situation, yet so many people think the latter scenarios are appalling (a violation of human rights even) yet lightly smacking a child is ok???

No need to be confused, the clue is in the question:

One is a child, one is an adult, one is someone with a disability. Comparisons of apples vs oranges vs pineapples aren't generally valid.

Stork

Truley

storker wrote: »

No need to be confused, the clue is in the question:

One is a child, one is an adult, one is someone with a disability. Comparisons of apples vs oranges vs pineapples aren't generally valid.

Stork

That's because they are variables. The concept itself is the same - 'a light smack.' So in two out of three incidence it would be considered unacceptable and unhelpful - but in the case of a child it's fair game???

To be honest it's a perfectly valid analogy. If you don't agree with it fair enough but I'm surprised that so many people are attempting to pull it apart and make it out to be a stupid question. It's not.

RustyNut

storker wrote: »

No need to be confused, the clue is in the question:

One is a child, one is an adult, one is someone with a disability. Comparisons of apples vs oranges vs pineapples aren't generally valid.

Stork

I think the logic they used in sweden when they banned corporal punishment was that assault is assault regardless of who the victim is altho I would not advocate banning.

jim90

Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child

Ayla

nesf wrote: »

I've seen women lightly slap their husbands to ward them away from something or to get their attention. Should this be unacceptable?

In my opinion, yes. I would react the same if I saw a woman giving a man a light smack as I would seeing a man do the same to a woman.

nesf

Ayla wrote: »

In my opinion, yes. I would react the same if I saw a woman giving a man a light smack as I would seeing a man do the same to a woman.

Then you're a large exception for our generation.

pheasntstalker

hi never posted in this section before, but topic caught my eye,i for 1 got clatterd.kicked,bet with a leather belt ,poker what ever was handy, i am a parent to a 7 yr old,i do as a last resort give a smack only after warnings and taking favorite toys/fone away,i dont think it does any harm,i would never use a wooden spoon or any other object or slap there face, thats what is wrong with society today as one op said there to soft and uasuly it the people who dont have kids, that condone a slap, i see kids walking all over ther parents and the parents letting them, for fear of the gards or social workers bein called, i think the parents should take back the rite to rear the.re kids and the busy body brigade ,go rear there own ,thats just my opion

storker

RustyNut wrote: »

I think the logic they used in sweden when they banned corporal punishment was that assault is assault regardless of who the victim is altho I would not advocate banning.

The problem with that logic is that it presupposes that a smack comprises an assault.

Stork

storker

pheasntstalker wrote: »

, i think the parents should take back the rite to rear the.re kids and the busy body brigade

That's just it. As usual, there is surfeit of puritanical pillocks who take it on themselves to tell everyone alse what to do. The "this works for me so it's what everyone else must do also" brigade.

We have two very well-behaved, charming kids (not just our verdict but others also) who nevertheless are full of mischief and "divilment". Slapping them is not a part of our disciplinary repertoire, nor is even threatening them with same, because we don't really believe in it, and have discovered that it's mostly not necessary. But it has happened on the very rare occasion. In fact, I can't remember the last time either of our kids got a slap. But, that said, I'm damned if I'll be told by some moraliser that a single slap to the most protected part of their anatomy it's a black and white case of assault.

That said too, I do believe that not rewarding a tantrum or bad behaviour, and following through on threats is probably more effective. A case in point, the pre-bedtime story in our house is a very important part of the day to our girls. One night about two years ago, they were fighting...you know...needling each other throughout the story. I told them if they didn't stop then there would be no story that night. They didn't stop. So I closed the book and declared bedtime. Their resulting anguish at being denied the story quite took me aback. They suddenly became most apologetic and sorry; unfortunately, they had failed to take advantage of (too many) previous "chances" and I had no option but to follow through.

The next night, there was no problem and I think the "no story" scenario has happened only once ever since. Any bedtime misbehaviour now is effectively stopped with a threat to stop the story. And the threat has weight because they know it's not an idle one.

An exception would be one night recently when they got the giggles during the story...the result of a disagreement over how to pronounce "beret". I couldn't even attempt to discipline them even though it was very annoying because they'd got me at it too...

Stork

RustyNut

storker wrote: »

That's just it. As usual, there is surfeit of puritanical pillocks who take it on themselves to tell everyone alse what to do. The "this works for me so it's what everyone else must do also" brigade.

We have two very well-behaved, charming kids (not just our verdict but others also) who nevertheless are full of mischief and "divilment". Slapping them is not a part of our disciplinary repertoire, nor is even threatening them with same, because we don't really believe in it, and have discovered that it's mostly not necessary. But it has happened on the very rare occasion. In fact, I can't remember the last time either of our kids got a slap. But, that said, I'm damned if I'll be told by some moraliser that a single slap to the most protected part of their anatomy it's a black and white case of assault.

That said too, I do believe that not rewarding a tantrum or bad behaviour, and following through on threats is probably more effective. A case in point, the pre-bedtime story in our house is a very important part of the day to our girls. One night about two years ago, they were fighting...you know...needling each other throughout the story. I told them if they didn't stop then there would be no story that night. They didn't stop. So I closed the book and declared bedtime. Their resulting anguish at being denied the story quite took me aback. They suddenly became most apologetic and sorry; unfortunately, they had failed to take advantage of (too many) previous "chances" and I had no option but to follow through.

The next night, there was no problem and I think the "no story" scenario has happened only once ever since. Any bedtime misbehaviour now is effectively stopped with a threat to stop the story. And the threat has weight because they know it's not an idle one.

An exception would be one night recently when they got the giggles during the story...the result of a disagreement over how to pronounce "beret". I couldn't even attempt to discipline them even though it was very annoying because they'd got me at it too...

Stork

Yea for us slapping is wrong but it's a personal choice. So long as what's done is done with love occasional slap or not you won't go too far wrong.

My little one is big enough to read to me now at bed time, best part of the day:)

DM addict

I'm going to step into this debate as a childcare professional, rather than a parent.

Regardless of a child's age, it is not permitted for me to physically discipline a child in any fashion, even if I know the child is smacked by parents and/or when babysitting in a child's own home. As such, inevitably, a range of non-physical discipline techniques have to be used - time out, naughty step, reward charts, no story time, etc.

However, I work primarily with children under two years old. This means that a lot of reasoning based techniques are pretty much out of bounds. So, for what it's worth, here's my views.

Discipline, whether smacking or no, *must* be consistent. Idle threats are the enemy - if you threaten something, you must carry it through. Otherwise all your child learns is to ignore you. (This can present problems for the childcare worker if a parents smacks, as they will soon learn that the childcarer cannot discipline them, so might act up.)

Discipline should be scaled appropriately to the transgression (!) and to the age of the child. There is a difference between intentional and repeated wrongdoing, and accidental or occasional occurences.

When it comes to disciplining toddlers/those with whom it is difficult to reason, it is very important that the punishment/discipline is immediate. Otherwise it's just arbitrary. Same if you come home and the dog has widdled in your shoe.

On that note... I don't like to say that I treat small children like dogs. That's just not a positive thing for a parent to hear. BUT when children are too young to be reasoned with, they just need to learn that something is wrong, rather than understanding why. As such, my technique is to remove the child from the situation, usually physically, with a loud and firm "NO" (not shouting, just loud and firm). And when removing the child, use no eye contact and don't hold them for longer than necessary, otherwise it's a cuddle, and that's a reward. This takes A LOT of repetition before it sinks in, and I can see that many parents would resort to a light smack as the physical pain is more offputting.

Anywho, that's my two cents.

nesf

DM addict wrote: »

As such, my technique is to remove the child from the situation, usually physically, with a loud and firm "NO" (not shouting, just loud and firm). And when removing the child, use no eye contact and don't hold them for longer than necessary, otherwise it's a cuddle, and that's a reward. This takes A LOT of repetition before it sinks in, and I can see that many parents would resort to a light smack as the physical pain is more offputting.

That's exactly what we do with our 19 month old at the moment. I don't really see any other viable way of dealing with bad behaviour. That said, she's normally very good, the problem usually comes from her older brother doing something bad and her copying him.

Nanazolie

DM addict wrote: »

On that note... I don't like to say that I treat small children like dogs. That's just not a positive thing for a parent to hear. BUT when children are too old to be reasoned with, they just need to learn that something is wrong, rather than understanding why.

I take it you meant too young rather than too old?

DM addict

yes sorry!

gargleblaster

DM addict wrote: »

On that note... I don't like to say that I treat small children like dogs. That's just not a positive thing for a parent to hear. BUT when children are too young to be reasoned with, they just need to learn that something is wrong, rather than understanding why. As such, my technique is to remove the child from the situation, usually physically, with a loud and firm "NO" (not shouting, just loud and firm). And when removing the child, use no eye contact and don't hold them for longer than necessary, otherwise it's a cuddle, and that's a reward. This takes A LOT of repetition before it sinks in, and I can see that many parents would resort to a light smack as the physical pain is more offputting.

Anywho, that's my two cents.

That's what I did, works like magic.

Also, I'm curious if any dog trainers smack dogs in order to get them to behave as desired.

annetted

i hate to say it but some people are just rough in their dealings with adults and children.. i think that if a child was at risk, then a person should intervene but its a very big decision..

i was going up the naas road the other day. a man, woman and toddler got off the LUAS. the toddler was beside them - his mum then decided to put on his coat. the little boy wrestled a bit, she then pulled him hard to her, slapped him on the back of the head, shouted at him and put him jacket on - then threw him in the buggy (and i do mean threw him in roughly). the poor little boy put his dummy in his mouth and had a blanket which he snuggled into it. my heart went out to him. i was never so tempted to say something but the traffic lights changed and i moved off.. what makes people so thick.. like what is that child going to learn.. i don't know but some people don't seem to have much patience or tolerance.. its not easy bringing up children but its such an important job.. children learn from the example that they are shown.. i have a 3 year old boy and I have never slapped him and i hope i never will either.

nesf

gargleblaster wrote: »

Also, I'm curious if any dog trainers smack dogs in order to get them to behave as desired.

Generally only when necessary. As with children there are many other options that should be tried first.

Though, separating two fighting dogs requires physical action unfortunately.

lazygal

I hope not to smack my children when we have them. As a child, slapping never made me feel like I did something wrong and needed to be punished, i simply resented my parents for having hit me. I was told to "pick on someone your own size" when teasing my siblings, but then they contradicted this my smacking us.

I am also a child care professional and obviously not allowed to administer physical punishment. My mother was in the same line of work and it irked me no end when she smacked me or my siblings because she didn't have recourse to that in the classroom, she had to use time outs etc.

No matter what, physical punishment is a reflection on the ability of an adult to control their actions.

neuro-praxis

lazygal wrote: »

No matter what, physical punishment is a reflection on the ability of an adult to control their actions.

So, a parent who holds the value that smacking their children is a method of disciplining that works for them, and has decided this in advance, presumably in conjunction with their co-parent, using rational processes, is simply an out-of-control adult with anger issues?

Regardless of whatever methods parents use, I find there is a general lack of appropriate punishment with Irish children. Discipline is not merely about teaching right and wrong - in many cases the child is already well aware of what's right and wrong and therefore their actions require an actual punishment (whatever that might be).

All of my friends with poorly behaved children consider their children to be good and polite, by the way. You are obviously not all raising your children as well as you think you are - an afternoon in any Irish primary or secondary school class will show you that.

That's not to say I'm a smacking advocate, but I certainly have sympathy with parents who smack, occasionally and in the right circumstances, and who are otherwise consistent and loving.

Also a comment on the parent who took their child to a toilet cubicle to be smacked - if we were to take a positive view on the situation one could suppose that they were delivering the punishment while sparing them public humiliation.

lazygal

neuro-praxis wrote: »

So, a parent who holds the value that smacking their children is a method of disciplining that works for them, and has decided this in advance, presumably in conjunction with their co-parent, using rational processes, is simply an out-of-control adult with anger issues?

As I said in my post, smacking did not work on me. It simply created a lot of resentment in my head towards my parents. It was a very, very negative thing. I still resent my mother a little for smacking me across the face when I was about ten. She wouldn't have done it to an adult, yet she would tell me to pick on someone my own size? I was a slight child and she is a tall woman, I can't imagine what I did at ten to have her do that to me.

I manage to have excellent discipline in my classroom without smacking the children in my care, so I plan to continue this at home. I don't have the option of losing control and smacking a three year old, yet the children are well behaved in my school.

wexford awake

kids these days are so spoiled that they laugh at any one in authority, corporal punishment should be brought back in schools. In American schools paddling in schools are quiet common. in my childhood days we were raised to respect everyone else in society, yet it took loads of smacks, the odd beating with the fathers finest leather belt, or a sally rod or the mothers weapon the wooden spoon, but i may have resented it at the time, but looking back it's what i needed as a kid to turn in to a law abiding a nd respectful adult. I Fear becoming a parent, because I cant imagine having my kid walk all over me and fear a court appearance or social worker visit if I dare put manners on the little pup.

Ayla

wexford awake wrote: »

In American schools paddling in schools are quiet common.

That's a completely unfounded, flat-out lie.

margio

Ayla wrote: »

That's a completely unfounded, flat-out lie.

Actually it's not, paddlings as the Americans call it is actually common practice , but obviously it depends on what State your talking about, like I Think it's prevalent in the red nex southern United States, but it's prob outlawed in the other parts like new york , mass, new england, washington etc.

Wexford awake , i know where your coming from, Ireland has gone from a society that disciliplined their children with physical punishment as common practice to the other extreme where kids now are almost disciplining their elders, and all this happened within just one decade. I do feel the threat of physical punshment needs to be there if required. However, l feel as a kid I became immune to my fathers clatters, and being honest a grounding or these days to take away a mobile phone would prob be far more effective than a few slaps., however the threat that I might get a hiding was always in the back of my mind. Fear is a great deterrant, but while kids shouldn't be living in fear of their parents, a fear that for every action their is a consequence must be instilled with them. I Believe that a mixture of smacking and removing personal items should be used as disciplining. For minor discilpline issues like refusing to come to the table for dinner etc a few smacks wouldn't go astray, it's dealt with right there and then, but for more serious issues then a good grounding or better taking away mobile/internet priveleges away is prob best especially wih older kids. BUT Parents always need to know where their kids are, no excuses, they were young themselves once, so their not stupid as to what is going on