What is the best age to seperate a puppy from it's mother?

Bizzum

Edit to Clarify:

This thread has been split from another where these replies were not relevant to the query.

anniehoo wrote: »

10 weeks is a minimum.

Can you explain this please?

Shanao

Bizzum wrote: »

Can you explain this please?

A yorkshire terrier puppy shouldn't be sold before 10weeks of age, a responsible breeder of yorkies will hold onto them until this age to have them vaccinated for the first time, properly socialised, and to give them time to get a little sturdier; none of the toy breeds should be sold before ten weeks due to their size.

DBB

A yorkshire terrier puppy shouldn't be sold before 10weeks of age, a responsible breeder of yorkies will hold onto them until this age to have them vaccinated for the first time, properly socialised, and to give them time to get a little sturdier; none of the toy breeds should be sold before ten weeks due to their size.

This is assuming the breeder is very, very well versed in socialising the pups, which many breeders, unfortunately, are not.
According to research into critical periods of dog development, and I'm not aware that the rules are any different for toy dogs than for other groups, the optimum time to take a pup from the mother depends on a number of things, such as the expertise of the new home, and the expertise of the breeder.
The advice based on evidence (based on the seminal work by Scott and Fuller in 1965, research that was so good, it is still widely used by behaviourists and behavioural scientists) is that pups should come away from the dam at 8 weeks. Any later, and you risk the pup over-bonding with its littermates and home-place, and finding it more difficult to adjust to the new surroundiungs of the new home. The period from 8-12 weeks is without doubt the most important within the Socialisation Period from the socialisation/acclimatisation point of view, and the advice is that the pup should spend as much of this time in it's future surroundings as possible.
If the breeder is very well versed in the processes of socialisation and acclimatisation, the best advice is to take pup at 8 weeks: if the breeder is truly brilliant (from a puppy psychological development point of view), there is an argument to leave the pup longer with the breeder... but the number of truly brilliant breeders out there is pretty miniscule.
If the breeder is not knowledgeable, and if the new owner is, the recommendation is that the pup should actually leave the breeder's premises between 6-8 weeks of age. But this must be tempered against the fact that the new owner must be an experienced puppy-rearer and very well-versed in how the Socilisation Period needs to proceed.
Perhaps herein lies a dilemma. Perhaps it is better for a toy dog to stay with the breeder longer from a vaccination/physical development point of view, though personally, I'm not convinced of this.
But given the much greater possibility of a new pup suffering from behavioural problems due to it's staying with the breeder too long, compared to any problem caused by the pup being vaccinated with the new owner and not the breeder, I'll choose to avoid the former problem.

Sigma Force

Don't believe that, if a breeder is responsible and includes all their dogs and pups in the family and trains their dogs well they will have a good all round pup whether you get the pup at 8 or 10 weeks old.
If everyone was to go by that rule no rescue dogs would be taken in, it all depends on how the dog is reared not how long the breeder has it imo.

Toy breeds esp. the very small ones are delicate and imo shouldn't be taken away till 10 to 12 weeks and imo all pups bought or from a rescue should have full vaccinations rather than just the first lot.

If a breeders pup is suffering behavioural issues because it's left with them for an extra few weeks then to be honest I wouldn't go near that breeder at all and certainly wouldn't buy a pup from someone who didn't know what they were doing although sadly so many people in this country do.

Back on subject though op sounds like the pup was lucky, they get themselves in to all sorts of mischief, even adult dogs will snap at bees and wasps and get themselves stung, it sounds like your guy hasn't had an severe reaction so no harm done.

DBB

Sigma Force wrote: »

Don't believe that, if a breeder is responsible and includes all their dogs and pups in the family and trains their dogs well they will have a good all round pup whether you get the pup at 8 or 10 weeks old.
If everyone was to go by that rule no rescue dogs would be taken in, it all depends on how the dog is reared not how long the breeder has it imo.

Re the first paragraph of your post. Re-read my post, you've just repeated what I said in it. My point being that most breeders do not raise their pups as well as they should from a socialization point of view.
Re your second paragraph, in my experience, rescue dogs, and most commonly xbreed rescue dogs, actually leave the premises on which they were born prior to 6 or 7 wks of age, let alone 8 or 10. If they go to a good rescue, or a knowledgeable home, these pups tend to turn out great due to their varied early, but not too early, experience.
It is to do with how the dog is reared, as I've already said, I'm not sure why you're repeating what I've said and trying to make it sound like I said the opposite!

Shanao

DBB wrote: »

Re the first paragraph of your post. Re-read my post, you've just repeated what I said in it. My point being that most breeders do not raise their pups as well as they should from a socialization point of view.
Re your second paragraph, in my experience, rescue dogs, and most commonly xbreed rescue dogs, actually leave the premises on which they were born prior to 6 or 7 wks of age, let alone 8 or 10. If they go to a good rescue, or a knowledgeable home, these pups tend to turn out great due to their varied early, but not too early, experience.
It is to do with how the dog is reared, as I've already said, I'm not sure why you're repeating what I've said and trying to make it sound like I said the opposite!

The point that both myself and SigmaForce made was that a Responsible breeder will raise the puppies right. In regards to your statement of a breeder not being knowledgeable and the new owner being knowledgeable enough, they should sell the puppy between 6-8 weeks of age, why would a new owner being that knowledgeable buy a puppy from a breeder who clearly doesn't know what they're doing? There are responsible breeders out there who do not let their puppies go until they are 8, 10 or even 12 weeks and these puppies all seem to adapt and settle in their new homes fine. In comparison, I have yet to meet a puppy between 6/7 weeks who hasn't developed seperation anxiety. The puppies also learn bite inhibition from their dam and littermates between 7-9 weeks. On top of that, some toy breeds (shih tzus are the first ones that come to mind) actually get their puppy teeth a week later than most other breeds and are a week later in weaning. I would never let a puppy go before eight weeks anyway, but would prefer nine weeks at least.

In any case, all of this is off topic from the thread so its probably best to start up a new thread about this.

DBB

I'm well aware of the phases of puppy development, bite inhibition etc ;-)
I can tell you that rescues often have to make the call whether to leave pups with their owner-breeder, or to take them early, and from the oodles of experience I have in doing this, I can tell you that the pups I've taken early have always turned out top notch adults. The ones that come away later are often harder work as we're playing catch-up. In my experience, it is these later pups that have the worst separation problems. The early pups that develop anxiety problems are invariably byb or puppy farmed.
I can also tell you that experienced trainers and behaviourists will always opt for a younger pup, pre 8 wks, than one that's stayed with the breeder til 10+ wks. This includes the most famous puppy man of them all, Ian Dunbar, who coined the phrase "bite inhibition", also advocates taking the pup between 6-8wks if you're an experienced owner.
Knowing that even some of the best breeders don't know as much as they should about socialization, and I mean real, proper socialisation, I personally wouldn't buy a pup at 10+ wks. There are many responsible breeders out there who are remarkably unaware of socialisation, acclimatisation, bite inhibition, fear-imprint periods etc. As I say, the age I'd prefer to take a pup is based on the advice from the best in the business, and from my own experience having dealt with, it must be hundreds at the stage, pups taken from their mother at various ages.

Cherry Blossom

Well imo the optimum age to take a pup is at nine weeks old. At 8 weeks old the pup starts it's first fear imprint period and the first week of this period is particularly heightened. Any 'traumatic' experience that occurs in this period is likely to stay with the dog for life if you are not careful. If someone is going to take a pup at 8 weeks and leave it alone all day, it is likely they will have a dog with separation anxiety for life. I also firmly believe that this is why so many dogs have problems with travelling - the impact of that first journey is deeply embedded in them. If the pup is 9 weeks old there is still plenty of time left within the early socialisation period for them to become fully and completely comfortable in it's new home and to be introduced to all the sights and sounds the dog is going to be living with. I wouldn't take a pup at 7 weeks old but still believe this is better than 8 weeks.

Well those are just my thoughts on the matter anyway.

kennyw

Hi,

im quiet sickend to say the least, but i have a friend of a friend who has just got a pup yesterday, the pup is just gone past 5 weeks of age.

Its a X breed, staffie X jack russel..

The breeder of this dog and its littermates must really not care for the wellbeing of the pups as she/he was prepared to let the pup go to this at such a young age..

The person who now has the dog has no previous experience or any sort of dogs and has no idea of how to handle or care for this pup. Even doh she/he has the best intetions to make sure the best is done for this pup, im afraid this dog is going to end up in the pound with the rest of the unfortunite animals and pets.

I called over to the house yesterday to see this pup and to try give as much info/help as possible to the new owner of the dog, without been hurtful, as its a person who would take things to heart personally rather than professionally, (not that im a professional dog handler or anything).

I advised of the injections, feeding, bedding, training, and as much as i could without overloading the certain person too much..

Can anyone give me any stories (expereicne) of pups who have made it from 5 weeks of age in a new home without any issue mentally or physically.?

I myself doubt there will be any good ones but anyone with experience and advise would be good. I want to try help this dog and new owner as much as possible.

But i can say i will ot be around this person or dog alot, so my help may be limited.

All advise and opinons are welcome..

Padjo1981

Personally I would not take a pup under 12 weeks. It is shocking at how people give/take pups at only a feew weeks old.

are you serious

I got my first pup at 8 weeks he was fine then and is still fine now, no socialising problems, no biting, nothing bad at all. The breeder was great, socialised him and had him used to the car/van already.

My second pup is now booked, and the breeder this time in Dublin will be doing the exact same thing, I will collest the pup in about 5 weeks give or take a day or so and she will be 8 weeks old.

Any and all reading on dog I have ever done and add to that advice Ive gotten from people have said 8 weeks is a minimum to take a pup and I respect all advice I get greatly.

OP after 8 weeks all pups should be fully weaned from their mother and on some sort of solid food, whichever the breeder has chose for them. The mother will almost at all times do this herself without the help of the breeder as she will not want her litter grabbing at her with their teeth growing and hurting as they try feed from her.

Kennyw, My advice for your friend would be take the pup to the vets for a full check up, the pup would have probably been half way through weaning and started on solids of some sort(probably softened solids this early) The friends local vet will give all the help and advice needed and will have special food for pups at that age for development and growth as normal foods will not cater for the needs of such a young pup

Bizzum

It was always told to me by the older folks that about 8 weeks was the ideal time.
Great to see science caught up with this in the mid 1960's!

So, I'm with Scott & Fuller, Dunbar, O'Heare, the Coppingers et al.