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Fruits of the Celtic Tiger
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Let me re-iterate what I said before.
Private capital follows public capital, and labour ( i.e people) follow capital. If at the beginning of the Irish State we decided to move the theatres, major universities, governments, Supreme courts, and public subsidised private boondongles ( like the IFSC and Docks) to Wexford, then the argument would run that we would continue to infrastructure in Wexford and it's 1 millions inhabitants rather than the 50K population backwater that were Dublin.
We don't have the power to move populations on those scales, that's why decentralisation failed! Besides, public capital is controlled by govt. Are you saying govt are infallible? Like the pope?
The point of infrastructure isn't to play the insane positive feedback trap of subsidising the already subsidised, and capitalising the already capitalised, but to level the population playing field.
Dublin is the size it is not by mere accident, but because of its location. Its the single best place for a major Irish city. We should encourage it to flourish, not hinder it in order to grow some provincial backwater.
"Levelling the population field" - what does this meeeeean? Sounds FFesque.To give people who have paid into the national pool some return on their investment. We are talkiong about national government here, which in most countries would be building routes of national importance ( motorways and inter-city trains) not local projects like the LUAS , local public transport in a capital should be the problem for it's own inhabitants. New York funds it's subways.
Ireland is a unitary state (unfortunately). If Dublin COULD raise and spend its own taxes there'd be a metro system by now and less pointless motorway.0 -
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Let me re-iterate what I said before.
Private capital follows public capital, and labour ( i.e people) follow capital. If at the beginning of the Irish State we decided to move the theatres, major universities, governments, Supreme courts, and public subsidised private boondongles ( like the IFSC and Docks) to Wexford, then the argument would run that we would continue to infrastructure in Wexford and it's 1 millions inhabitants rather than the 50K population backwater that were Dublin.
We don't have the power to move populations on those scales, that's why decentralisation failed! Besides, public capital is controlled by govt. Are you saying govt are infallible? Like the pope?The point of infrastructure isn't to play the insane positive feedback trap of subsidising the already subsidised, and capitalising the already capitalised, but to level the population playing field.
Dublin is the size it is not by mere accident, but because of its location. Its the single best place for a major Irish city. We should encourage it to flourish, not hinder it in order to grow some provincial backwater.
"Levelling the population field" - what does this meeeeean? Sounds FFesque.To give people who have paid into the national pool some return on their investment. We are talkiong about national government here, which in most countries would be building routes of national importance ( motorways and inter-city trains) not local projects like the LUAS , local public transport in a capital should be the problem for it's own inhabitants. New York funds it's subways.
Ireland is a unitary state (unfortunately). If Dublin COULD raise and spend its own taxes there'd be a metro system by now and less pointless motorway.
Accusations of FF sympathies without foundation are ad hominems. I have no sympathy for FF, specifically its corrupt Dublin branch. And you miss the point when you talk about mass movement of populations, I am merely pointing out that Dublin would be a backwater were it not for government subsidy.
To complain about provincial backwaters is to spectacularly miss the point since Dublin would be one without subsidy.
In fact the only point you raised which could vaguely be said to be new was the claim for Dublins natural position. In fact there is no proof of that. The port is, even now, due to silting barely fit for purpose, and it could be moved. Dublin is half way up the East of the country, there is no law which makes that position the ideal spot for a capital on an island off Europe. Wexford's position is closer to the relative position of the UK capital
It is as close to the UK and closer to France.
If Dubliners want to withdraw from a unitary state, do by all means. In fact, please do. Your port ( the only, albeit subsidized , natural economic benefit of the city) would be no use as the port of a city state. Exports and imports to Ireland would go elsewhere. Government would move losing the city about 50% of it's economy and population to start with, the port would collapse and the productive citizenry - mostly immigrants and migrants from the country leave - leaving the 3 generation Dubliners, the howyas and the Roysh to run the place.
Good luck with that one.
Dublin can, however, pay for it's metro using it's own taxes or raising it's own bonds within Ireland. Like many cities. Let's do that.0 -
Accusations of FF sympathies without foundation are ad hominems. I have no sympathy for FF, specifically its corrupt Dublin branch. And you miss the point when you talk about mass movement of populations, I am merely pointing out that Dublin would be a backwater were it not for government subsidy.
To complain about provincial backwaters is to spectacularly miss the point since Dublin would be one without subsidy.
No it wouldn't, because any such govt would immediately be removed from power. Dublin was big before this state existed, and its choice as capital was a foregone conclusion. Your argument is as laughable as Sinn Fein's idea to make Athlone capital of Ireland.
Dublin's size is not an actual problem, thinking it is a problem is a complete waste of time. The focus should be to serve the people, wherever they may be. London and Paris are similarly dominant... so what?In fact the only point you raised which could vaguely be said to be new was the claim for Dublins natural position. In fact there is no proof of that.
Proof of its natural benefits? Um, ok..
Its at the mid point of the most populated coast
Its almost equidistant from every other major Irish city
Its warmer & drier than most of the island
Its close to the large British and European markets
Its located on a coastal plain unlike most of our rugged coastline
You want more?The port is, even now, due to silting barely fit for purpose, and it could be moved.
Or dredged.Dublin is half way up the East of the country, there is no law which makes that position the ideal spot for a capital on an island off Europe. Wexford's position is closer to the relative position of the UK capital
It is as close to the UK and closer to France.
Its not about law, its about common sense, its the best spot in the country, thats why so many people live there.
Wexford is no closer to London than Dublin is, in practical terms. But it IS farther from the northern half of Ireland. Being closer to France isn't enough.If Dubliners want to withdraw from a unitary state, do by all means. In fact, please do. Your port ( the only, albeit subsidized , natural economic benefit of the city) would be no use as the port of a city state. Exports and imports to Ireland would go elsewhere. Government would move losing the city about 50% of it's economy and population to start with, the port would collapse and the productive citizenry - mostly immigrants and migrants from the country leave - leaving the 3 generation Dubliners, the howyas and the Roysh to run the place.
Good luck with that one.
Dublin can, however, pay for it's metro using it's own taxes or raising it's own bonds within Ireland. Like many cities. Let's do that.
Its your port too, if you're an Irishman. Dublin is the capital of your country, its not an alien plantation foisted on an innocent virgin nation, its an integral part of it.
If you don't want to celebrate that, then don't expect me to care about your thoughts on what Ireland should or shouldn't be.
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They are failures of the bubble ...but had the bubble lasted 3 years longer we might have completed the national motorway network. There should be an M4 motorway to west of Mullingar ( maybe to Longford) , Tuam-Cork and Dublin - Enniscorthy. Other than Limerick - Cork these have all been started.
We are around 150 miles shy of a COMPLETE motorway/HQDC network which is but small fry compared to what we have built. Then we can predictably and reliably move between key population/employment centres as should be the case in an advanced economy.
As to the rest of the Network I have frequently posted that we do not need continous 2+2 on long rural runs...but we need 2+2 interspersed with S2 to allow predictable and safe overtaking opportunities.0 -
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The point of infrastructure isn't to play the insane positive feedback trap of subsidising the already subsidised, and capitalising the already capitalised, but to level the population playing field. To give people who have paid into the national pool some return on their investment. We are talkiong about national government here, which in most countries would be building routes of national importance ( motorways and inter-city trains) not local projects like the LUAS , local public transport in a capital should be the problem for it's own inhabitants. New York funds it's subways.
I'm not quite sure you understand the definition of "national importance". A decrepit old railway line, say, in the west of Ireland connecting a string of hamlets, might cover a larger geographic area, but when it comes to the number of people carried and the benefit to the overall economy, the Dublin-based projects such as Dart Underground and Metro North win not just comfortably, but utterly wipe the floor with those kinds of projects. As we all pay into this "national pool" as you say, the number of people who are served and more importantly who will use the infrastructure must be the primary basis upon which it is progressed. If we start playing games trying to hit every dot on the map, we end up with... well, the National Spacial Strategy. 0 -
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