Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

MJohnston

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The town marina.

The one off Abbey Road? Looks tricky enough to reach without some on-road portion.

Zubeneschamali

MJohnston wrote: »

The one off Abbey Road? Looks tricky enough to reach without some on-road portion.

Through the hospital grounds and across the road.

MJohnston

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Through the hospital grounds and across the road.

Yeah, that's what I mean, it'll have to cross a road at some point, which is a shame.

schemingbohemia

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah, that's what I mean, it'll have to cross a road at some point, which is a shame.

Virtually all Greenways have some element of road-crossing. Waterford certainly has a few, as does the Great Western. It's all about designing them to be as safe as possible for Greenway users, including traffic-calming measures, raised crossing platforms would be ideal but it all depends on volumes of traffic and their likely speed.

mr spuckler

planning permission for the cycle bridge takes it across to beside the library. as far as I know it will start from between the Radisson & the Credit Union - I'm guessing that's the part of the marina that they refer to.

marno21

Planning permission granted for Tralee-Fenit

http://www.radiokerry.ie/planning-permission-granted-tralee-fenit-greenway/

Lots of good news out of Kerry at the mintte

serfboard

marno21 wrote: »

Planning permission granted for Tralee-Fenit
...

Lots of good news out of Kerry at the mintte

You have to hand it to Kerry Co Co, now that they've discovered this Greenway business, they're not hanging around.

Abeeyfeale->Listowel, Tralee->Fenit and the South Kerry Greenway are all moving ahead.

They obviously know about the €50million funding available for Greenways and are determined to get their hands on it!

'Tis no wonder they have 37 All-Irelands!

Sam Russell

serfboard wrote: »

You have to hand it to Kerry Co Co, now that they've discovered this Greenway business, they're not hanging around.

Abeeyfeale->Listowel, Tralee->Fenit and the South Kerry Greenway are all moving ahead.

They obviously know about the €50million funding available for Greenways and are determined to get their hands on it!

'Tis no wonder they have 37 All-Irelands!

... and the Healy-Raes.

CatInABox

Sam Russell wrote: »

... and the Healy-Raes.

Wouldn't be terribly surprised if they've got a "HR Greenway Construction Company" that's just been set up, to be honest.

Joking aside, Kerry have been all over anything tourist related for decades, no surprise that they're getting not just politicians behind this, but locals as well. A singular drive that's quite admirable.

Del.Monte

CatInABox wrote: »

Wouldn't be terribly surprised if they've got a "HR Greenway Construction Company" that's just been set up, to be honest.

Joking aside, Kerry have been all over anything tourist related for decades, no surprise that they're getting not just politicians behind this, but locals as well. A singular drive that's quite admirable.

Kerry people (in particular those in Tralee) are too cute by half and that's one of the principal reasons why the 1980's Tralee/Fenit railway project failed. The nearby Tralee/Blennerville Steam Railway has been closed for years despite substantial EU funding. Don't mention the farce surrounding the Jeanie Johnston which is now rotting in Dublin.



Tralee/Blennerville Steam Railway today - a monument to cute hoorism.

Muahahaha

Kerry Council sent out 170 CPOs to landowners yesterday. Good info on what has been happening in this special report https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/specialreports/special-report-local-landowners-give-greenway-cpo-the-red-light-866233.html

With that in mind, negotiations with landowners were entered into in 2013. The proposal scheduled June 2016 as the completion date for the whole project.
Most of the 197 owners were amenable, but not everybody. A few declared they simply would not have such a throughway on their land.

Mr McDonald has a particular problem with the proposed route crossing a driveway. He proposed an alternative route. I showed it to them,” he says. “They said that was good but then they came back and threw it up in the air. They were going to have it their way. If we were listened to from day one, there would be a greenway there now.

Kerry County Council has told the Irish Examiner that all avenues were explored in an exhaustive manner. One local source who is familiar with the project — and many people are reluctant to go on the record because of sensitivities around the issue — pointed to a scenario he was aware of.

At one point along the route, negotiations were conducted with a number of farmers with adjoining holdings. This went on for five months. “It was back and forth. He wants it one way, the other man wanted it another,” says the source. “In the end, they nearly got agreement when another fella a bit along the way, who had previously agreed, came back and said he’d changed his mind.”

Was it ever going to be possible to get agreement? Frank Curran, of the Cahirciveen development organisation ACARD, doubts it. “It’s like everything,” says Mr Curran. “When you’re dealing with 170 people you’re not going to get everybody to agree. We had a meeting four years ago and even then some were saying that it would have to be by CPO.”

This point is also conceded by one of the landowners who has reached agreement with the council. “Even if they backed down on the CPO in the morning, there would still be between four and six who just will not do any deal,” says the landowner.

In February 2015, county manager Moira Murrell recommended to the council that CPO was the only way forward. The councillors were told the project hung in the balance despite agreement by 95% of landowners. At the time just four were understood to have been fixed in their opposition.

The councillors voted to proceed. Since then, things have advanced at a snail’s pace as is often the way. Funding which had been secured had to be reapplied for. Site investigation works were held up with landowners refusing to grant access. Later this month, the council is seeking a court order to be allowed onto the holdings of two landowners.

Once the CPO was introduced, others who had reached agreement had second thoughts. Some changed horses midstream on a matter of principle, others in solidarity. Mr McDonald says that the group he is part of now numbers around 32, representing a bit less than one sixth of all the owners.

Nationally, the IFA has also come on board as the south Kerry greenway is being seen as a rubicon.

Its been a drawn out process but the CPO will bring it to a head. There is a very small minority of the 170 landowners, perhaps 4-6, who are absolutely entrenched and are saying they will never let it go ahead in their lifetimes.The rest seem amenable to reaching a deal.

The thing with the farmers, IFA and the CPOs is they are using this as a basis for resisting future CPOs.

They were never brave enough to try this with a roads CPO but will chance their arm with one for a greenway.

Simple fact is that once the CPO is served, that's it. Its done, over. Its the whole point of a CPO.

To allow otherwise would disrupt all future infrastructure development in the country where you will have CPOs for roads, rail, airports, ports etc etc etc.

They spent years negotiating, got nowhere with a few folks, so have no option but to CPO the lot.

The farmers/IFA can go to court, but they will lose.

marno21

Deleted User wrote: »

The thing within the farmers, IFA and the CPOs is they are using this as a basis for resisting future CPOs.

They were never brave enough to try this with a roads CPO but will chance their arm with one for a greenway.

Simple fact is that once the CPO is served, that's it. Its done, over. Its the whole point of a CPO.

To allow otherwise would disrupt all future infrastructure development in the country where you will have CPOs for orads, rail, airports, ports etc etc etc.

They spent years negotiating, got nowhere with a few folks, so have no option but to CPO the lot.

They can go to court, but they will lose.

They didn't object to the roads CPOs because of the windfall they received.

The difference with the greenway is the comparatively less land being sold for similar division of land. Added to the fact that due to location the value of a lot of this land (especially the mountainous elements) is quite low.

Only a fool would've objected to most of the motorway CPOs.

CatInABox

marno21 wrote: »

Only a fool would've objected to most of the motorway CPOs.

Only a fool would've objected to winning the lottery, in other words.

Carawaystick

saw mention of this on twitter earlier
https://www.irishtrails.ie/Trail/Coachford-Greenway/937/

Bray Head

The Irish Times reports 197 landowners for 32km. Or a change of ownership every 160 metres on average!

Is there anywhere else in the world with landholding as scattered as this?

How did nearly 200 landowners acquire ownership in bits and pieces from CIÉ since 1960?

Pete_Cavan

Bray Head wrote: »

How did nearly 200 landowners acquire ownership in bits and pieces from CIÉ since 1960?

I would assume that initially a small number of farmers acquired land from CIE and they sold off bits over the years, mostly for one off houses.

Melodeon

Go to https://www.landdirect.ie and log in as a Guest, and zoom in to take a look at the huge number of individually registered land parcels along the old railway route.

serfboard

marno21 wrote: »

The difference with the greenway is the comparatively less land being sold for similar division of land.

The thing is, I would argue that it's not a "similar division of land" - it's a far smaller strip of land that can easily allow for the movement of animals (and let's face it, cattle/sheep farming is most of what farmers do in Ireland).

For example, I was on the GST near Abbeyfeale recently, and there are access gates combined with cattle grids to allow and prevent animal movement where required - and how many times a day do the animals need to be moved?

marno21 wrote: »

Added to the fact that due to location the value of a lot of this land (especially the mountainous elements) is quite low.

The value of the land is low because it's bad land - which usually means that there's fúck all else in the area. Here farmers are being presented with a potential extra revenue stream for their wives/families (tea rooms, etc.) and they're refusing it.

And then they wonder why their offspring are all migrating to cities and towns ...

An example of what I'm talking about here can be found in Sligo on the Knocknarea walk. At the base of the walk is a chalet (called, amusingly "Base Camp") which serves tea, coffee, freshly-made crepes if you want, buns, bars etc. I was chatting to the woman who runs it and she told me that the chalet is on their land, so they are using the fact that potentially hundreds of people are passing their door weekly to make some money.

Carawaystick

serfboard wrote: »

For example, I was on the GST near Abbeyfeale recently, and there are access gates combined with cattle grids to allow and prevent animal movement where required - and how many times a day do the animals need to be moved?

4 if they're dairy, 1/100 if not

Tigerandahalf

Ya the greenways do offer employment opportunities. On the Mayo greenway outside Newport there is a lovely new cafe - The Riverside Cafe. A lovely old type house that has been beautifully done. I got cones of icecream for the kids and a really nice coffee. It simply wouldn't be there if not for the greenway. Possibly 2 or 3 people employed for the summer season.

hans aus dtschl

Carawaystick wrote: »

4 if they're dairy, 1/100 if not

I think what the team doing Dungarvan did for the frequent animal movements (dairy) was provide a tunnel/bridge crossing for each of these, so that no gated crossings were necessary. It's a big one-off cost but it works very well.

marno21

Kerry/Limerick border to Listowel has been approved

http://www.radiokerry.ie/plans-approved-extend-north-kerry-greenway-limerick-county-bounds/

hans aus dtschl

Part 8 planning just entered for the Midleton-Youghal greenway:

https://www.corkcoco.ie/planning/municipal-districts-part-8-planning

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Part 8 planning just entered for the Midleton-Youghal greenway:

https://www.corkcoco.ie/planning/municipal-districts-part-8-planning

That is disappointing and quite short sighted. One of the more valuable disused railway alignments in the country.

Markcheese

marno21 wrote: »

That is disappointing and quite short sighted. One of the more valuable disused railway alignments in the country.

Really?
Maybe in 30 years time? But at the moment it's a wasted asset...

Markcheese

Was actually just about to post that I'd seen the planning notice sign by the level crossing in Midleton...
Quicker the better..
And if they can link in a coastal trail from youghal to dungarvan all the better..

riddlinrussell

Markcheese wrote: »

Really?
Maybe in 30 years time? But at the moment it's a wasted asset...

As much as I'm a proponent for Greenways, commuter rail should take precedence if its reasonably likely to happen in the near future, this looks like a case where they will want to take a good look at what happened with the Comber Greenway in Belfast. Any greenway along the alignment should be explicitly laid down as a way of protecting the rail corridor, with written agreements that the alignment can be used for railway when feasible and if/when that happens, the greenway will be moved, either to a completely new but equal quality position along the same route, or run alongside the rail line.

bk

riddlinrussell wrote: »

As much as I'm a proponent for Greenways, commuter rail should take precedence if its reasonably likely to happen in the near future, this looks like a case where they will want to take a good look at what happened with the Comber Greenway in Belfast. Any greenway along the alignment should be explicitly laid down as a way of protecting the rail corridor, with written agreements that the alignment can be used for railway when feasible and if/when that happens, the greenway will be moved, either to a completely new but equal quality position along the same route, or run alongside the rail line.

I believe someone posted earlier that Irish Rail have said for any Greenway built on inactive railways, that the land remains in IR ownership and that they can take it back at any time for rail in the future.

Though I'd hope they'd try to have the rail and greenway run side by side where they can. Many such greenways around the world and no reason they can't exist side by side.

OnDeBanks

Bray Head wrote: »

The Irish Times reports 197 landowners for 32km. Or a change of ownership every 160 metres on average!

Is there anywhere else in the world with landholding as scattered as this?

How did nearly 200 landowners acquire ownership in bits and pieces from CIÉ since 1960?

"But, as they say in south Kerry, you can’t eat the scenery. That would appear to have been the attitude of the Government and CIE executives of the day because a decision was taken to sell off the disused rail line to those with adjoining holdings.

This decision is at the heart of the problems that have now arisen. At the time, nobody could have predicted that the line would ever again be usable for any form of transport.

The days of cycling long distances out of necessity were drawing to a close. The notion that the future would present cycling as a form of leisure activity was entirely far-fetched.

As a result the line was sold. In some instances, the adjoining owners were reluctant to take it on. Much of the line — particularly on the ‘Golden Mile’ — is on land that is barely viable.

To that end, CIE had to appeal to some landowners to actually take possession in the years that immediately followed. The Irish Examiner understands that in a few cases, money was paid to take the line out of State hands."