Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

MJohnston

flazio wrote: »

Do you mind me asking for the source of this information?

I think poster might be slightly incorrectly be referring to this:
https://www.dublincycling.com/cycling/new-study-reveals-huge-numbers-commuting-bike-dublins-quays

The DCC/NTA traffic count has different figures:
https://www.google.com/url?q=https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Canal_Cordon_Report_2017.pdf&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwiM8I_v-MLgAhU7ThUIHeVKB2EQFjADegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw2AGcEc47MGI3i8mZ8nMVvA

Edit: worth noting though that the DCC figures only show commutes that cross the canals, there will be thousands of cycling commuters staying inside that boundary.

AndrewJRenko

flazio wrote: »

Do you mind me asking for the source of this information?

Sure, the source is the Census 2016;


https://irishcycle.com/2017/07/30/more-residents-commute-by-bicycle-than-by-luas-and-dart-in-dublin-city-and-suburbs/

marno21

The South Kerry Greenway legal case is rumbling on

https://www.radiokerry.ie/kerry-county-council-engineer-tells-court-site-investigation-works-will-determine-cost-greenway/

Del.Monte

A bit off topic, but why are these mini roads (tarmac) described as greenways? I have little experience of using greenways save for the Peel/Douglas former rail route on the Isle of Man which is grit/fine gravel and is used by pedestrians/cyclists and horses - ideal in my opinion.

None of the routes in Ireland seems to be more than mini tarmac roads and consequently ghastly - okay for cycling but for walkers yuk!



Above a section of a former rail route in the New Forest converted into a gravel/grit surfaced 'greenway'. https://www.forestleisurecycling.co.uk/

Greaney

Del.Monte wrote: »

A bit off topic, but why are these mini roads (tarmac) described as greenways? I have little experience of using greenways save for the Peel/Douglas former rail route on the Isle of Man which is grit/fine gravel and is used by pedestrians/cyclists and horses - ideal in my opinion.

None of the routes in Ireland seems to be more than mini tarmac roads and consequently ghastly - okay for cycling but for walkers yuk!



Above a section of a former rail route in the New Forest converted into a gravel/grit surfaced 'greenway'. https://www.forestleisurecycling.co.uk/

Going out on a limb here, but the difference in rainfall between the West of Ireland and Dublin is huge. We have waaay more rain and a tarmac road doesn't turn to mud so easily.

Greaney

I don't know about the rest of the country but the submissions for funding for a bike-week event in Galway (County Council) are the end of the month. Bike week is in the last month of June this year, and not the usual mid-month of the past, which is better because it's after the exams, and everyone can really take part.

So my question is, there's a lot of folk keen on greenways here, are any of ye doing/organising events for bike week?

MJohnston

Del.Monte wrote: »

None of the routes in Ireland seems to be more than mini tarmac roads and consequently ghastly - okay for cycling but for walkers yuk!

Hmm, not sure I agree with that. Grit/gravel paths are very quickly potholed by heavy rainfall.

Corca Baiscinn

Del.Monte wrote: »

A bit off topic, but why are these mini roads (tarmac) described as greenways? I have little experience of using greenways save for the Peel/Douglas former rail route on the Isle of Man which is grit/fine gravel and is used by pedestrians/cyclists and horses - ideal in my opinion.

None of the routes in Ireland seems to be more than mini tarmac roads and consequently ghastly - okay for cycling but for walkers yuk!

A number of the converted rail routes are tarmac but most canal/river sections I've been on are grit/gravel. Gravel isn't great for road bikes or for pushing buggies or for scooting balance bikes or for wheelchairs so given that there are lots of other walking trails around besides greenways it's a bit unreasonable to complain about the surface of some greenways. Also many canal sections have paths on both sides so in fact it would be possible to have both.

A lot of forest trails have been tarmaced in recent years too. Essentially it comes down to social inclusion. Tarmac allows all abilities to enjoy the amenity

Del.Monte

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot of forest trails have been tarmaced in recent years too. Essentially it comes down to social inclusion. Tarmac allows all abilities to enjoy the amenity

I would love to see figures that back up the social inclusion policy - i.e how many wheelchair users, pram pushers and people with mobility walkers use the greenways.

hans aus dtschl

Tar also has cheaper long-term maintenance costs apparently.

A good number of people with mobility walkers and buggies/prams use the Waterford greenway anyway. You'll always know you're getting near a town because the numbers of these shorter-distance users increases significantly as you get near the towns.

Markcheese

Probably could do with a mix, some tarmac, some packed gravel, and some traditional walkways, as you get to busier more urban areas there's more reason to tarmac, and maybe a standard colour grading system... For eg, brown could be a rough unimproved track, grey could be gravel, black for tarmac... And something else (blue?) for on road sections... At a glance at a route map, you could tell which bits are which, and how likely you are to travel it with a wheel chair or road bike..

mr spuckler

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot of forest trails have been tarmaced in recent years too. Essentially it comes down to social inclusion. Tarmac allows all abilities to enjoy the amenity

tbf the Great Western Greenway is a fine sand surface on top of a solid foundation, it's not tarmac anyway but don't ask me for more technical details! nothing about that surface would reduce accessibility or usability for any potential users.

schemingbohemia

Del.Monte wrote: »

A bit off topic, but why are these mini roads (tarmac) described as greenways? I have little experience of using greenways save for the Peel/Douglas former rail route on the Isle of Man which is grit/fine gravel and is used by pedestrians/cyclists and horses - ideal in my opinion.

None of the routes in Ireland seems to be more than mini tarmac roads and consequently ghastly - okay for cycling but for walkers yuk!



Above a section of a former rail route in the New Forest converted into a gravel/grit surfaced 'greenway'. https://www.forestleisurecycling.co.uk/

Well, the over 100,000 people who walked on the Waterford Greenway in 2017 would likely disagree with you.

Virtually all Greenways in Ireland are quarry dust/fine gravel surfaced, the only one (to my knowledge) that is all tarmac is the Old Rail Trail in Westmeath.

MJohnston

Del.Monte wrote: »

I would love to see figures that back up the social inclusion policy - i.e how many wheelchair users, pram pushers and people with mobility walkers use the greenways.

But what do those figures matter? A tarmac surface is inevitably easier to access for everyone. Your argument was that gravel is better for walkers, but why? I think a proper surface is better for everyone.

Del.Monte

MJohnston wrote: »

But what do those figures matter? A tarmac surface is inevitably easier to access for everyone. Your argument was that gravel is better for walkers, but why? I think a proper surface is better for everyone.

It's a personal thing, I just don't like the countryside being sanitised/cleaned up and covered in tarmac.

Del.Monte

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's a personal thing, I just don't like the countryside being sanitised/cleaned up and covered in tarmac.

Roads

riddlinrussell

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's a personal thing, I just don't like the countryside being sanitised/cleaned up and covered in tarmac.

I think its a fine balance, there should be provision made for all people to be able to enjoy aspects of the countryside, but I'm not going to advocate for a travelator to the top of Carrauntoohil but I realise the main route up it should definitely be fixed up a-la Snowdon, as its getting far more traffic than the route can handle. I think in the majority of situations, any man made route should be brought to great standard for all visitors, so all canals and railway routes, and natural routes be cared for in an area appropriate way, which will mean some level of management to ensure routes don't degrade, but minimal impact on the area.

RHJ

One issue I see if you start adding man-made paths to the site of mountains and Hills and tarmacing other places is what happens when someone inevitably falls over and decides to sue this could open up local authorities or whoever is responsible for that pathway having to pay a large payout.

MJohnston

Yeah, that's extremely far from a valid reason to not build greenways.

MJohnston

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's a personal thing, I just don't like the countryside being sanitised/cleaned up and covered in tarmac.

Well that's a completely different story from tarmac being disadvantageous to walkers though!

I've been in countless beautiful locations in Ireland that are no less beautiful for the presence of tarmac paths - Glendalough, the Ring of Kerry, Gougane Barra, etc.

My counter to your argument would be - better to build a few greenways with tarmac than force more tourists and locals to hop into polluting cars.

I'd also imagine that helping more people experience cycling in a pleasant and leisurely environment like this would do a lot to encourage them to switch to that mode for any commuting they might need to do.

riddlinrussell

RHJ wrote: »

One issue I see if you start adding man-made paths to the site of mountains and Hills and tarmacing other places is what happens when someone inevitably falls over and decides to sue this could open up local authorities or whoever is responsible for that pathway having to pay a large payout.

Its been seen with yer wan suing over the boardwalk on Djouce, it makes no sense to 'tarmac' a true hiking trail, but greenways are definitely not that.

What we really need to avoid that sort of thing is right to roam like they have in the UK.

But greenways wouldn't fall under that for my money, they SHOULD be maintained to a high standard and I would expect the county to be as liable for them as a pothole in the road.

Legal payouts are ridiculous in this country but liability exists for a reason and I wouldn't want any council to have an excuse not to keep greenways at a high standard instead of opening them to great fanfare and letting them rot thereafter

Grassey

Came across this earlier

New footbridge proposed to carry greenway from castleknock train station side to delwood side thereby avoiding the deep sinking.

bk

I would say that Glendalough is a great example of sensible accessibility for all people of differing abilities.

First you have the car parks, visitor center, coffee shops and ruins that can be visited by anyone, all the tourists, etc.

Then you have tarmac walks and wide timber boardwalk that lead to the two lakes, which can be used be most people, kids on bikes, buggies, even wheelchairs, etc.

Beyond the start of the upper lakes, you get into the more serious hiking territory, steep, narrow timber steps that lead up to a very narrow timber boardwalk and spectacular views. Obviously only accessible to able bodied, relatively fit and relatively well equipped people hikers.

Beyond that you can even go wondering through the hills, but that is off path, into muck and bog and needs serious hiking gear and experience *

Something for everyone and a good experience IMO. I'd love to see it expand further (Guinness Estate) and similar around the country.

As for the woman who sued for falling on the boardwalk. She initially won the case, but was laughed out on appeal in the High court. The ruling went something like if you are hiking in the mountains, you can expect uneven ground and watch your footing, you are responsible for yourself. I'm not a lawyer, but I think that set pretty clear precedence for hiking trails like this.

* I hike all over Wicklow, it is always fun heading down to the car park from the surrounding hills. You get weird looks from couples out strolling to the lakes with normal clothes and coffee cups, while you are wearing serious hiking gear and covered in muck. I don't think many of them realise it is a good starting point for more serious hiking.

whisky_galore

There's a nice rail trail on the former Shillelagh branch in Aughrim. Not sanitised at all, winds through mature trees and bikes are banned. I gathered from the site signage that it was accessible to the public via the goodwill of the surrounding landowners, that goodwill can be withdrawn if people aren't behaving themselves.

Really quiet and pleasant and a change from sidestepping Tour De France wannabes, off leash and/or fouling dogs and wagon trains of buggies of other greenways.
(That didn't stop one mountain bike rider I encountered who thought trail rules were for other people, there's always one)

spacetweek

whisky_galore wrote: »

Really quiet and pleasant and a change from sidestepping Tour De France wannabes, off leash and/or fouling dogs and wagon trains of buggies of other greenways.

That's not a nice way of talking about leisure cyclists, dog walkers and parents with babies.

MJohnston

whisky_galore wrote: »

There's a nice rail trail on the former Shillelagh branch in Aughrim. Not sanitised at all, winds through mature trees and bikes are banned. I gathered from the site signage that it was accessible to the public via the goodwill of the surrounding landowners, that goodwill can be withdrawn if people aren't behaving themselves.

Really quiet and pleasant and a change from sidestepping Tour De France wannabes, off leash and/or fouling dogs and wagon trains of buggies of other greenways.
(That didn't stop one mountain bike rider I encountered who thought trail rules were for other people, there's always one)

What a priggish thing to post. I guess greenways should only be for grumpy old Meldrews? I'm sure they'd still find something to complain about.

whisky_galore

whisky_galore wrote: »

I gathered from the site signage that it was accessible to the public via the goodwill of the surrounding landowners, that goodwill can be withdrawn if people aren't behaving themselves.

Sounds ripe for a cpo if you ask me. Access to an amenity that can be removed at the whim of someone in a bad mood is not an amenity

Really quiet and pleasant and a change from sidestepping Tour De France wannabes, off leash and/or fouling dogs and wagon trains of buggies of other greenways.
(That didn't stop one mountain bike rider I encountered who thought trail rules were for other people, there's always one)

You forgot to mention the less able bodied and wheelchair users, but screw them too, right?

If they can't manage to crawl the route, they shouldn't be allowed to enjoy nature, it's their problem, right?

Only those with no young kids, dogs, bikes, wheelchairs, prams, walking sticks, etc, should be allowed in that mecca, right?

Or were you trying to make a different point?

Del.Monte

One answer would be to build an Information Centre at each end of a Greenway showing the place as it used to be before construction of the greenway, with a few specimens of whatever wildlife used to be present in display cases and then bulldoze away - tarmac/white lines/signage/rubbish bins/toilets/seating/information boards etc.

Zubeneschamali

Del.Monte wrote: »

One answer would be to build an Information Centre at each end of a Greenway showing the place as it used to be before construction of the greenway

Yep - steam trains booting both directions at 70 mph for 100 years, it was idyllic.