Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

riddlinrussell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debate/?id=2019-10-03a.194

Comment from a Cavan TD regarding the Kingscourt line, in certain cases I'd agree with the sentiment but it really would be pie in the sky to argue for reinstating this line when Navan to Dublin isn't even under consideration at present, as ever I would argue that the greenway be set up in such a way as to be relatively trivial to reverse to rail if needed, and if you want to get serious about rail build new lines to modern standards instead of trying to keep things to the old outdated Victorian routes which will constantly hamper your ability to run an efficient, fast modern train system

There's about as much chance of the Kingscourt line reopening as Athenry to Tuam

The WRC phase 1 really did a number on rail expansion

Del.Monte

Deleted User wrote: »

There's about as much chance of the Kingscourt line reopening as Athenry to Tuam

The WRC phase 1 really did a number on rail expansion

Nonsense, there's a good case for reopening Athenry/Claremorris but no reason on earth to reopen Navan/Kingscourt unless the gypsum traffic resumes.

spacetweek

whisky_galore wrote: »

How green is a Greenway, given the numbers of people that use one use motor transport to get to it? It's a leisure facility, not a piece of commuter transport infrastructure.

By the time this greenway is done a lot of cars will be electric, with the rest to follow shortly after so it's a moot point. That said people arriving on PT would be even better.

spacetweek

riddlinrussell wrote: »

<snip>
.... as ever I would argue that the greenway be set up in such a way as to be relatively trivial to reverse to rail if needed,

I think we've discussed here before and agreed that once a rail line is converted to greenway it's never going back to rail. The cyclists wouldn't allow it and any secondary businesses that were trading on the back of the greenway would be destroyed.

riddlinrussell

spacetweek wrote: »

I think we've discussed here before and agreed that once a rail line is converted to greenway it's never going back to rail. The cyclists wouldn't allow it and any secondary businesses that were trading on the back of the greenway would be destroyed.

Indeed it's been discussed, exactly this happened in NI with the Comber Greenway, if it were to work there would have to be a clear legal agreement and time limit on the existence of the Greenway.

This isn't my preferred option, being pro Greenway on disused railway and being pro railway aren't mutually exclusive, we need an aggressive policy of railway improvement and construction if we want to meet emissions targets and make commuting feasible and not a nightmare.

New lines don't have to run exactly where the old ones did, and in many cases shouldn't. (And my god at least dual track everything new, half the scheduling and frequency problems with the network are all the single track everywhere...)

Zubeneschamali

riddlinrussell wrote: »

we need an aggressive policy of railway improvement and construction if we want to meet emissions targets and make commuting feasible and not a nightmare.

Commuting between Athenry and Claremorris?


Navan and Kingscourt?


These railways are dead - commuters need rapid transit into cities, not slow diesel between rural towns.

riddlinrussell

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Commuting between Athenry and Claremorris?


Navan and Kingscourt?


These railways are dead - commuters need rapid transit into cities, not slow diesel between rural towns.

Not sure of your argument to me here as we are in agreement on this...

spacetweek

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Commuting between Athenry and Claremorris?


Navan and Kingscourt?


These railways are dead - commuters need rapid transit into cities, not slow diesel between rural towns.

I'm not sure he said they should be reopened.

Muckyboots

Del.Monte wrote: »

Nonsense, there's a good case for reopening Athenry/Claremorris but no reason on earth to reopen Navan/Kingscourt unless the gypsum traffic resumes.

The EY rail report (the version without political interference) will demonstrate very soon that passenger numbers from Claremorris won't justify reinstating trains and would put a burden on an already financially overladen IR . Then we can all get back to deciding what's the best option for a derelict railway. Greenway for local economies or unicorn steamboats for anoraks.

Muahahaha

Just heard on the radio there that there is an ABP hearing going on in Tralee today concerning the Kerry greenway. KCC submitted that it is needed to boost employment in a rural area. Some farmers still objecting to the CPO

Del.Monte

Muckyboots wrote: »

The EY rail report (the version without political interference) will demonstrate very soon that passenger numbers from Claremorris won't justify reinstating trains and would put a burden on an already financially overladen IR . Then we can all get back to deciding what's the best option for a derelict railway. Greenway for local economies or unicorn steamboats for anoraks.

What does this even mean? It's like saying that the Galway/Dublin line is not viable because an intermediate station at Attymon Junction doesn't provide much traffic. Claremorris is an intermediate station on a through route that would reconnect Limerick, Galway etc. with Westport, Ballina etc.

L1011

Passenger numbers from all potential endpoints won't justify it either

Muckyboots

Del.Monte wrote: »

What does this even mean? .

It means Earnest & Young will adjudicate on whether a WRC phase 2 is viable. Couldn't be anymore simple.

Del.Monte

Muckyboots wrote: »

It means Earnest & Young will adjudicate on whether a WRC phase 2 is viable. Couldn't be anymore simple.

You've completely ignored what I said because it doesn't suit your agenda; work away I don't care if it makes you happy.

Corca Baiscinn

Muahahaha wrote: »

Just heard on the radio there that there is an ABP hearing going on in Tralee today concerning the Kerry greenway. KCC submitted that it is needed to boost employment in a rural area. Some farmers still objecting to the CPO

Heard that today on radio too but think it's scheduled to last for days, so there must be a lot of people for and against scheduled to give evidence

hans aus dtschl

I still take issue with the idea/concept that when a greenway goes in it can never be reinstated as a rail route.
I think the Cork/Blackrock/Passage medium/long term plans will be interesting in that regard.

riddlinrussell

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I still take issue with the idea/concept that when a greenway goes in it can never be reinstated as a rail route.
I think the Cork/Blackrock/Passage medium/long term plans will be interesting in that regard.

I am pro this as a concept (where the same route still makes sense) but in practice it just doesn't work out, once people have their lovely walking and cycling route they really don't want to give it up, I think the only even remotely feasible course for this would be a firm legal agreement that the route will be turned into a public transport route when feasible, and that as part of that change of use, an alternative cycle/footway of equal or greater quality must be provided along the route. Otherwise it will never sell to anyone.

riddlinrussell

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I am pro this as a concept (where the same route still makes sense) but in practice it just doesn't work out, once people have their lovely walking and cycling route they really don't want to give it up, I think the only even remotely feasible course for this would be a firm legal agreement that the route will be turned into a public transport route when feasible, and that as part of that change of use, an alternative cycle/footway of equal or greater quality must be provided along the route. Otherwise it will never sell to anyone.

That agreement already forms part of the lease agreement

In any event when a route does become viable, the alignment will have been protected

Also, once a line becomes viable and needs to be built (which would be required regardless of a greenway or not) it would require minimal additional investment to colocate the greenway alongside.

However, asking for the greenways to be built alongside an unused rail line makes the cost of the greenway unreasonable and unlikely to be built.

hans aus dtschl

We will wait and see. There's little progress on this or any other piece of infrastructure right now.

But I haven't seen opposition to Cork/Blackrock/Passage rail route from Cycling or pedestrian groups. From what I've seen they're actually in favour of it. The only group I've heard oppose it are local residents along the route. And I haven't even heard that opposition in a long time.

Sure, cycling groups are crying out for segregation, but nobody I've seen has been protesting the idea that the rail route be reinstated.

marno21

Summary of what's gone on at the South Kerry Greenway to date:

https://www.radiokerry.ie/latest-oral-hearing-proposed-south-kerry-greenway/

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

Summary of what's gone on at the South Kerry Greenway to date:

https://www.radiokerry.ie/latest-oral-hearing-proposed-south-kerry-greenway/

That's honestly a great summary

Tigerandahalf

I would think the IFA opposition here is an effort to protect farmers on a potential Galway Dublin greenway route from being CPO'd in the future.

Tigerandahalf

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

I would think the IFA opposition here is an effort to protect farmers on a potential Galway Dublin greenway route from being CPO'd in the future.

Possibly but a Galway to Dublin route is not physically possible without CPO on some portions

They are redesigning the route to make the most of govt owned bogs, forests etc but they are not joined up so the bits in between will need to be purchased, regardless of where the final route is

From Facebook

New Ross news - South East Greenway – Project Update

Folks , see below an update on the new Greenway from Wexford County Council

Paul


With planning permission and funding firmly in place, it’s full steam ahead for the construction of the South East Greenway, a state-of-the-art 24km cycling and walking route linking New Ross, County Wexford with Ferrybank, County Waterford through South KIlkenny

Wexford County Council has announced that clearing of vegetation and commencement of a site investigation contract along the route will commence this month. This will be followed by completion of the tender process, with the main construction works to begin in Summer 2020.

The South East Greenway is a joint initiative of Wexford County Council, Kilkenny County Council and Waterford City & County Council, supported by the local Partnership organisations. The three Councils have together committed funding of €5m towards the overall project costs of €13m, with a recently announced €8m grant from the Department of Transport Tourism and Sport providing the balance.

The Greenway is to be constructed along the former railway line between Mountelliott and Waterford, crossing the River Barrow via the renowned Red Bridge and passing through the scenic countryside of South Kilkenny, before reaching Abbeylands and Ferrybank County Waterford. From there it will link to the Waterford Greenway via the proposed North Quays and Bilberry Greenway Projects, creating a 72km Greenway of regional significance spanning from New Ross to Dungarvan.

The disused railway line has remained in the ownership of CIE / Irish Rail since the discontinuation of passenger services in 1963 and discontinuation of freight services in 1995 and the company has now commenced negotiations with the local authorities to facilitate the development of the much anticipated Greenway.

A proposal to provide a River Taxi service between New Ross and Waterford which would complement the Greenway and provide users with a unique experience for their return journey is also currently under consideration.

The South East Greenway is scheduled to open in Autumn 2021.

Pete_Cavan

The river ferry is a great idea and would really add to the attractiveness of the greenway.

Hibernicis

marno21 wrote: »

Summary of what's gone on at the South Kerry Greenway to date:

https://www.radiokerry.ie/latest-oral-hearing-proposed-south-kerry-greenway/

Echoing what DaCor said, it is a great summary and thanks for posting it.

But doesn't the opening sentence say so much about infrastructural development in Ireland....."The process for the greenway commenced in earnest in 2011" - 8 bloody years, and not a sod turned. EIGHT years ?

In 2008 China had a few miles of High Speed rail. By Feb 2016 (EIGHT years later) it had 20,000km.

marno21

Hibernicis wrote: »

Echoing what DaCor said, it is a great summary and thanks for posting it.

But doesn't the opening sentence say so much about infrastructural development in Ireland....."The process for the greenway commenced in earnest in 2011" - 8 bloody years, and not a sod turned. EIGHT years ?

In 2008 China had a few miles of High Speed rail. By Feb 2016 (EIGHT years later) it had 20,000km.

Yes but in China they don't have to listen to the usual suspects rambling on about habitats in hotel conference centres for weeks on end delaying things.

Hibernicis

marno21 wrote: »

Yes but in China they don't have to listen to the usual suspects rambling on about habitats in hotel conference centres for weeks on end delaying things.

Point taken. Closer to home……

In 1924 a fella had an idea that you could dam the Shannon and power the whole of Ireland from it. He convinced the Minister. The Minister convinced the Taoiseach. The Taoiseach convinced the Government. They spent 20% of the country’s budget on the Shannon scheme. And five years later it opened, on time and on budget. FIVE is a smaller number than EIGHT. And we are an awful lot richer than we were in 1925. You just wonder where we went so wrong that it takes eight years to get to a point where are having a hearing into the merits of building a footpath and cycleway. It opens your eyes to why people end up voting for the purveyors of the simplified messages, the trumps and johnsons of this world. Shudder.

/end of off topic thoughts

easypazz

Peter sweetman really sticks his beak in everything. I understand arguing against altering dune systems or building bridges across the Shannon.

But a cycle path through the countyside which has only positives?

MJohnston

marno21 wrote: »

Yes but in China they don't have to listen to the usual suspects rambling on about habitats in hotel conference centres for weeks on end delaying things.

Fellas, I get the frustration with our often vexatious planning process (although the funding process is usually the source of most delays), I really do.

But making comparisons with China, of all countries, is either ignorant or willfully naive. There are very specific, horrible reasons why they're able to afford and build infrastructure in such a short time. We should not be hoping to emulate their practices.

Let's compare ourselves to some of the many European countries that have also succeeded where we have not.