Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

Quackster

loyatemu wrote: »

Achill is different, it closed much earlier and the land was sold. Dungarvan, Fenit, Youghal, New Ross were all open until at least the 80s and stayed in CIE ownership until very recently.

Yep, on squatters' rights, the clock only starts ticking from the date the line was formally abandoned. Which in the case of Fenit was 2014.

The council simply doesn't want to go to the effort and expense of taking legal action to shift the idiot, even though they most certainly would win. Could delay completion of the greenway a few years too.

In the context of reopening a railway, the costs associated with clearing illegal squatters would be loose change in the grand scheme of things so it's not really comparable.

daniel_t1409

Are there any plans to turn the old New Ross to Wexford line into a greenway? The greenway could go from Waterford-New Ross-Macmine Junction-Wexford. This would be much better than tearing up the track on the waterford-Rosslare line as that line could still be useful as a railway. Most of the line os gone now but presumably there's workarounds?

loyatemu

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

Are there any plans to turn the old New Ross to Wexford line into a greenway? The greenway could go from Waterford-New Ross-Macmine Junction-Wexford. This would be much better than tearing up the track on the waterford-Rosslare line as that line could still be useful as a railway. Most of the line os gone now but presumably there's workarounds?

the New Ross - Waterford section is being converted at the moment, but I think New Ross - Macmine is mostly gone having been closed much earlier. The other problem is Macmine is the middle of nowhere, maybe it could connect with a Slaney Greenway between Enniscorthy and Wexford?

daniel_t1409

loyatemu wrote: »

the New Ross - Waterford section is being converted at the moment, but I think New Ross - Macmine is mostly gone having been closed much earlier. The other problem is Macmine is the middle of nowhere, maybe it could connect with a Slaney Greenway between Enniscorthy and Wexford?

I was thinking maybe before it reaches macmine it could go along some L roads to get into Wexford town or Enniscorthy, maybe widen them a bit for the greenway to go alongside them or something.

MJohnston

Anyone with too much time on their hands feel like putting together a map of "wide hard shoulder" roads?

https://twitter.com/yimbyie/status/1302957222457155594

loyatemu

certainly on roads that have been bypassed, there's no reason why they couldn't be converted. e.g. the former N11 in Wexford - ridiculously wide hard shoulders in places. However when the council reduced the speed limit from 100 to 80 after the motorway opened there were complaints so they raised the limit again, basically on the assumption that no-one uses these roads unless they're in a car (like the hell with pedestrians and cyclists, or the people living along the road, who could benefit from the slightly lower limit).

something I've noticed on these downgraded former N roads is that the councils stop maintaining the verges and they gradually get narrower. I often cycle on the former N11 near Ashford, downgraded 20 years ago, and the hard shoulders are more or less gone, covered with vegetation.

Somewhere like this, I would favour slewing the road to one side, to allow a 2-way cycle-lane and footpath on the other side, with a hedge separating them (as opposed to a cycle lane on either side)

hans aus dtschl

loyatemu wrote: »

something I've noticed on these downgraded former N roads is that the councils stop maintaining the verges and they gradually get narrower. I often cycle on the former N11 near Ashford, downgraded 20 years ago, and the hard shoulders are more or less gone, covered with vegetation.

I would favour slewing the road to one side, to allow a 2-way cycle-lane and footpath on the other side, with a hedge separating them (as opposed to a cycle lane on either side)

I feel like I could have written this whole message myself!
I use the N639 (former N8) and the verges are after taking over the hard shoulders and climbing lanes.
There's also loads of room for a really cheap high-quality dedicated greenway.
And it's a serious rat-run now, despite a motorway being <100m from the alignment, with a good few deaths and crashes in recent years.

Unless there's an about-turn in attitude from Councils it's not going to happen though. It's a "motorway-for-locals" now.

Carawaystick

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

I was thinking maybe before it reaches macmine it could go along some L roads to get into Wexford town or Enniscorthy, maybe widen them a bit for the greenway to go alongside them or something.

The railway alignment was built on to make the N30, the road from New Ross to Enniscorthy used to go under the railway from the Ballyanne Pub

Pete_Cavan

loyatemu wrote: »

certainly on roads that have been bypassed, there's no reason why they couldn't be converted. e.g. the former N11 in Wexford - ridiculously wide hard shoulders in places. However when the council reduced the speed limit from 100 to 80 after the motorway opened there were complaints so they raised the limit again, basically on the assumption that no-one uses these roads unless they're in a car (like the hell with pedestrians and cyclists, or the people living along the road, who could benefit from the slightly lower limit).

something I've noticed on these downgraded former N roads is that the councils stop maintaining the verges and they gradually get narrower. I often cycle on the former N11 near Ashford, downgraded 20 years ago, and the hard shoulders are more or less gone, covered with vegetation.

Somewhere like this, I would favour slewing the road to one side, to allow a 2-way cycle-lane and footpath on the other side, with a hedge separating them (as opposed to a cycle lane on either side)

I'd certainly agree with having good pedestrian/cycle facilities on one side of the road instead of a measly space on each side. What is the thinking on hard shoulders these days, are they still relevant on these types of roads? They probably should remain on N roads but they probably could be done away with on former N roads turned R roads.

daniel_t1409

Carawaystick wrote: »

The railway alignment was built on to make the N30, the road from New Ross to Enniscorthy used to go under the railway from the Ballyanne Pub

Maybe it could go alongside the N30(or whatever it's called now) for that section, or along the old New Ross to Enniscorthy road(the very old one that went under the railway, not the one that's recently bypassed). On the satellite imagery I noticed that there are a lot of places where it is completely gone(for example around rathgarogue) maybe it's not as easy as I first thought.

L1011

MJohnston wrote: »

Anyone with too much time on their hands feel like putting together a map of "wide hard shoulder" roads?

https://twitter.com/yimbyie/status/1302957222457155594

Quite a lot of the ones in Donegal (N15), Monaghan (N2) etc that they would have been driving on are intended to be used to widen the road to 4 lanes. Same with the N4.

However, as the posts above point out, there's substantial enough WS2 on the roads that used to be the N1,7,8,9,11 albeit not continuous end to end by any means.

loyatemu

L1011 wrote: »

Quite a lot of the ones in Donegal (N15), Monaghan (N2) etc that they would have been driving on are intended to be used to widen the road to 4 lanes. Same with the N4.

However, as the posts above point out, there's substantial enough WS2 on the roads that used to be the N1,7,8,9,11 albeit not continuous end to end by any means.

going back to the section of N11 I mentioned, you could have a continuous route from Ferns to Enniscorthy using the old hard shoulders, so you're linking 2 towns with a safe walking and cycling route. I think that's worth doing. There are probably plenty of other examples around the country.

Seth Brundle

More positive news...
https://twitter.com/WexBug/status/1303063687679401987

daniel_t1409

Seth Brundle wrote: »

More positive news...
https://twitter.com/WexBug/status/1303063687679401987

I've looked on google maps satellite images and most of the line is gone now as well as the macmine junction line which I already mentioned. Still, hopefully this does go ahead and maybe one going towards wexford/enniscorthy as well, would be cool to extend our network of cycle ways.

Pete_Cavan

Surely the logical thing to do would be to incorporate the Borris viaduct into the Barrow Greenway? It is not much of a detour, brings the greenway benefits to the town, adds an interesting feature and the Barrow along there seems to be surrounded by forest so probably better to leave nature do its thing there rather than disrupting it. The rest of the former rail line doesn't appear to be usable, most has disappeared entirely and whatever remaining sections seem too isolated to be of use.

whisky_galore

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The rest of the former rail line doesn't appear to be usable, most has disappeared entirely and whatever remaining sections seem too isolated to be of use.

I don't see the point of shovelling heaps of money into this when great chunks of trackbed no longer exist. Fills someone's pockets though on a useless errand.

Carawaystick

loyatemu wrote: »

going back to the section of N11 I mentioned, you could have a continuous route from Ferns to Enniscorthy using the old hard shoulders, so you're linking 2 towns with a safe walking and cycling route. I think that's worth doing. There are probably plenty of other examples around the country.

Theres the narrow bit coming out of Enniscorthy towards wexford, before a huge long stretch to Oilgate with very few junctions or accesses. A bit of imagination could link Enniscorthy to there, and Ferrycarrig if the next section of N11 is upgraded

daniel_t1409

One thing that I was thinking is main roads even without hard shoulders could be widened to make room for a greenway going alongside them. Also L roads could be used as well.

Sam Russell

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

One thing that I was thinking is main roads even without hard shoulders could be widened to make room for a greenway going alongside them. Also L roads could be used as well.

They need to put two way cycle lanes at one side of the road with some hard division otherwise cars will use the cycle-way as a parking space. They do this anyway in urban anyway, so it needs hard infrastructure to stop it.

daniel_t1409

Sam Russell wrote: »

They need to put two way cycle lanes at one side of the road with some hard division otherwise cars will use the cycle-way as a parking space. They do this anyway in urban anyway, so it needs hard infrastructure to stop it.

I was thinking in more rural areas. As for people parking there, a fence would prevent that and also seperate the cycleway from the road(people swerving in to the cycle way etc).



https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2512248,-6.8415942,3a,75y,49.21h,87.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9BGVNRLyIyVu-XaO94t99A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D9BGVNRLyIyVu-XaO94t99A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D159.3223%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192


A road like this could be good for a greenway on the side

Sam Russell

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

I was thinking in more rural areas. As for people parking there, a fence would prevent that and also seperate the cycleway from the road(people swerving in to the cycle way etc).



https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2512248,-6.8415942,3a,75y,49.21h,87.32t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9BGVNRLyIyVu-XaO94t99A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D9BGVNRLyIyVu-XaO94t99A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D159.3223%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192


A road like this could be good for a greenway on the side

I was thinking of rural roads. When sugar beet was a crop, in autumn, the hard shoulder was used to dump crops waiting weeks before being taken to he sugar factory.

Hard shoulders are also used by huge tractors which is not compatible with cycling.

In the example road you cite, one side should be two way cycle lanes, the other side should be two way pedestrians, both protected by some suitable fence/kerbing.

Pete_Cavan

I really can't see cycle infrastructure being added to rural R or L roads, apart from any strategic sections to link other cycle infrastructure/greenways. Even the example given above is only a relatively short stretch where the verge could accommodate cycle lanes so of little use. Having to buy land and the cost of construction would make this very expensive for limited benefit where the population is low. I'm not sure that these could really be classed as greenways either.

As previously mentioned, the former National Primaries which have been replaced by motorway, and which generally have the necessary road space which can relatively easily and inexpensively be reallocated, are a more realistic possibility, and also connect bigger populations. Funding should be made available for this purpose as leaving it to CoCos will see nothing happen. Further National Secondaries upgrades to include cycle/pedestrian facilities would be great, hopefully Ryan will make funding available for another round of such projects.

Grassey

I reckon the 'grey way' will at best look like this section of the N77 I drove past over the weekend.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.9035859,-7.3552828,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scNI7xCwvGqwqvU389GHl6w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Some bike symbols, rumble strips, and painted dividers between it and the general traffic lane.

In fairness, there were loads using it to walk and cycle along the route, but it still suffers the usual problems:
* no priority at junctions for continuing straight ahead / no stop/yield markings at junctions to indicate loss of priority if going straight ahead.
* Variable width, from about 2ft to 5ft depending on the original hard shoulder width
* Ended suddenly at bridge before Durrow, with 1ft between traffic lane and side of bridge

[As an aside I did see a load of signs around Durrow for signposted cycle routes [towards Cullohill etc] would be nice if we got more designated 'quietways / local roads' visibly designated for cycle touring to connect up disparite greenways]

riddlinrussell

Grassey wrote: »

I reckon the 'grey way' will at best look like this section of the N77 I drove past over the weekend.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.9035859,-7.3552828,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scNI7xCwvGqwqvU389GHl6w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Some bike symbols, rumble strips, and painted dividers between it and the general traffic lane.

In fairness, there were loads using it to walk and cycle along the route, but it still suffers the usual problems:
* no priority at junctions for continuing straight ahead / no stop/yield markings at junctions to indicate loss of priority if going straight ahead.
* Variable width, from about 2ft to 5ft depending on the original hard shoulder width
* Ended suddenly at bridge before Durrow, with 1ft between traffic lane and side of bridge

[As an aside I did see a load of signs around Durrow for signposted cycle routes [towards Cullohill etc] would be nice if we got more designated 'quietways / local roads' visibly designated for cycle touring to connect up disparite greenways]

I feel like the "Quietway" could work outside of cities and towns, make a very well signposted cycle route using rural roads and have car barriers at the entrances to these roads/midway along, with the landowners along those routes being the only ones with fobs/keys for the barrier. Ensure navigation apps etc are aware the road isn,t a designated route and bam, quiet routes for cycling. Main expense I could see is ensuring actual quality junction crossings at main roads and anywhere two routes don,t directly meet and you need a short section of main road cycleway.

loyatemu

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I feel like the "Quietway" could work outside of cities and towns, make a very well signposted cycle route using rural roads and have car barriers at the entrances to these roads/midway along, with the landowners along those routes being the only ones with fobs/keys for the barrier. Ensure navigation apps etc are aware the road isn,t a designated route and bam, quiet routes for cycling. Main expense I could see is ensuring actual quality junction crossings at main roads and anywhere two routes don,t directly meet and you need a short section of main road cycleway.

It's a decent idea. One concern would be that very low traffic rural roads tend to have terrible surfaces, so you'd have to resurface them, with the risk that they'd then get destroyed again by tractors etc. You could follow rural roads but build greenway on the other side of the hedges - it would involve CPO though which is proving contentious for some of the existing proposals.

nilhg

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I feel like the "Quietway" could work outside of cities and towns, make a very well signposted cycle route using rural roads and have car barriers at the entrances to these roads/midway along, with the landowners along those routes being the only ones with fobs/keys for the barrier. Ensure navigation apps etc are aware the road isn,t a designated route and bam, quiet routes for cycling. Main expense I could see is ensuring actual quality junction crossings at main roads and anywhere two routes don,t directly meet and you need a short section of main road cycleway.

I don't always want to be the one seeing problems with other peoples suggestions but I'm scratching my head as to how this would work, while I'm most aware of the area in a radius of about 60km of Kildare Town I've cycled enough around the rest of the country to have a fair idea that it's not too dissimilar. The country side is full of one off houses, sometimes they are built by family on the home farm but often sites were sold to finance various bits and pieces and I can't see it being feasible to block those roads off or put some sort of barrier in the middle that would force house owners to only use one exit, and that's before you'd have the issues with the farmers.

The only hope I could see for some sort of safe cycle network would be to impose much slower speed limits, put in some sort of traffic calming and have high levels of enforcement. To be fair mostly those tyep of little L roads, often with grass up the middle are generally much safer and nicer to ride on than your typical R road.

For what it's worth I think the best hope of a genuine national greenway network will come from joining up what we have via Coillte forest roads, Bord Na Mona roads and bog railways, windfarm/solarfarm access roads and any other publicly owned bits and pieces available.

Just as a small example I was messing around with RWGPS to see what routes could be done solely on the old mostly disused bog railways in this general area, I came up with the below, I realise that on their own not likely to be the most attractive but they are close to or cross both the Royal and Grand canal and the great thing is most of the engineering is done, it would be mainly a case of lifting the tracks as the bogs close down and putting in a suitable surface then giving some access up to the public road in places.

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/33966376

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/33966358

Grassey

https://irishcycle.com/2020/09/14/sandymount-cycle-route-postponed-due-to-opposition/


2:1 in favour from public submissions... Ah sure shelve it to next year....

Pete_Cavan

nilhg wrote: »

I don't always want to be the one seeing problems with other peoples suggestions but I'm scratching my head as to how this would work, while I'm most aware of the area in a radius of about 60km of Kildare Town I've cycled enough around the rest of the country to have a fair idea that it's not too dissimilar. The country side is full of one off houses, sometimes they are built by family on the home farm but often sites were sold to finance various bits and pieces and I can't see it being feasible to block those roads off or put some sort of barrier in the middle that would force house owners to only use one exit, and that's before you'd have the issues with the farmers.

The only hope I could see for some sort of safe cycle network would be to impose much slower speed limits, put in some sort of traffic calming and have high levels of enforcement. To be fair mostly those tyep of little L roads, often with grass up the middle are generally much safer and nicer to ride on than your typical R road.

For what it's worth I think the best hope of a genuine national greenway network will come from joining up what we have via Coillte forest roads, Bord Na Mona roads and bog railways, windfarm/solarfarm access roads and any other publicly owned bits and pieces available.

Just as a small example I was messing around with RWGPS to see what routes could be done solely on the old mostly disused bog railways in this general area, I came up with the below, I realise that on their own not likely to be the most attractive but they are close to or cross both the Royal and Grand canal and the great thing is most of the engineering is done, it would be mainly a case of lifting the tracks as the bogs close down and putting in a suitable surface then giving some access up to the public road in places.

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/33966376

https://ridewithgps.com/routes/33966358

I agree with all this. Also, turning roads in fob accessed private roads wouldn't work, people have visitors, deliveries, etc. who would want access. I can't see the cost of buying land and building cycle lanes on several km of R/L road with a couple of dozen houses being justifiable. Attitudes will have to change and people get used to sharing the roads with cyclists, who have just as much right to be there. As your map and Riddlinrussel's show, we have plenty of opportunities for high quality walking/cycle routes mostly separated from roads mostly in state ownership, which can be delivered relatively quickly and cheaply.

Former railways and tow paths should be the priority and built out first as they offer the highest quality and most separation. BNM/Coillte/other state lands can be used to link up sections and tie in other communities. Former National Primaries which have been replaced by motorway also offer a decent quality and reasonably cheap routes. Certain road projects now include for properly considered cycle lanes (eg. tourist National Secondaries and N24 Piltown) and we should see more of this going forward. Alternative solutions and possible land purchase are needed in places too (eg. Galway - Athlone, South Kerry). That would give a pretty extensive network and then roads can be used strategically to link up sections and tie in other communities.

Grassey

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I feel like the "Quietway" could work outside of cities and towns, make a very well signposted cycle route using rural roads and have car barriers at the entrances to these roads/midway along, with the landowners along those routes being the only ones with fobs/keys for the barrier. Ensure navigation apps etc are aware the road isn,t a designated route and bam, quiet routes for cycling. Main expense I could see is ensuring actual quality junction crossings at main roads and anywhere two routes don,t directly meet and you need a short section of main road cycleway.

I'd be in favour of less intrusive measures. In other countries I've cycled in, there are clearly signed roads for 'cycle routes' on low volume local or access roads. There are some examples of this here, the Durrow route I mentioned, Skye Road in Clifden etc

If the route is heavily demarked as a popular touring route, the speed limit should be reduced appropriately, and calming measures where appropriate. The biggest issue I'd see in the country is 'locals who know the road' flaking along boreens at max speed rather than driving appropriate to expecting cyclists/pedestrians etc

loyatemu

nilhg wrote: »

I don't always want to be the one seeing problems with other peoples suggestions but I'm scratching my head as to how this would work, while I'm most aware of the area in a radius of about 60km of Kildare Town I've cycled enough around the rest of the country to have a fair idea that it's not too dissimilar. The country side is full of one off houses, sometimes they are built by family on the home farm but often sites were sold to finance various bits and pieces and I can't see it being feasible to block those roads off or put some sort of barrier in the middle that would force house owners to only use one exit, and that's before you'd have the issues with the farmers.

The only hope I could see for some sort of safe cycle network would be to impose much slower speed limits, put in some sort of traffic calming and have high levels of enforcement. To be fair mostly those tyep of little L roads, often with grass up the middle are generally much safer and nicer to ride on than your typical R road.

you could put soft restrictions in on designated routes - "no entry except access and cyclists" sort of thing, and reduce the limits, put in chicanes etc. You don't have to close the roads or make them one way, just discourage people from using them unless necessary, similar to the urban "quietway" idea.