family members conversion causing difficulties

Starokan

Hi all. My cousin is converting to islam and its caused some rifts within our family. I am not familar with many aspects of islam so i thought id post this here and perhaps i could take some positive facts/messages back which might help everyone. If I use any wrong terminology here please forgive me as this is all new to me.

The story is my cousin is 28 , she is converting to islam (she was raised catholic but has not been practising for a number of years). By her own admission her primary reason for converting is to marry her boyfriend who is a practising muslim. If she does not convert they will not have a future.

I have found some of the families reactions to be way over the top but there are some genuine concerns here that i will list. Perhaps someone here can share some of their knowledge which will allow me to allay some of their concerns and make my cousins life a bit easier and happier.

The main concerns seem to be:

- once she converts she will be expected to assume a subserviant role to her husband instead of an equal role
- her brother who is gay feels that he will lose his relationship with his sister simply because there is no tolerance for homosexuals within islam
-she will have to relinguish her career to focus on becoming a wife and mother

Could anyone advise if these are genuine scenarios that may occur. Ive spoken with my cousin as we are good friends, she has assured me that none of the above will happen and her husband to be understands this.

I should stress that our family is pretty close and that these difficulties that have arisen is due to genuine concern for her rather than non willingness to embrace another religion. For my own part im of the opinion that if it makes her happy she should do it.

My own concern would be that she is converting purely to marry someone instead of having a genuine interest in being part of the faith she is about to embrace.

Any advice/comments would be much appreciated

dlofnep

Women are most certainly treated as subservient to men in Islam.

Qur'an 4:34: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah orders them to guard."

Intolerance towards homosexuality in Islam is also high. Many Islamic states proscribe from lengthy prison spells to the death penalty for those found guilty of homosexuality.

She should not have to convert for him. Your fears are well justified. My cousin recently moved back to Ireland from England. She was married to a Muslim, and he beat her routinely and treated her like an animal. She was expected to be subservient to his every need.

chicken fingers

The posters on here and the people who moderate the board will all tell you that your concerns are unfounded as obviously they have their agenda, which is fair enough.
examples might include:
She won't be subservient, she will just be respected.
She won't ever be pushed out of a career, she will have her own life and be able to make her own decisions.
She will of course be allowed to be acquainted with her homosexual brother.

But the reality of the situation will depend on how his family are.
Maybe it will be grand, maybe the extended family are the small % who are total carefree easygoing liberal muslims who can accept a foreigner recent "returnee" to Islam with a gay bro.

It also depends on what culture you are marrying into.

Are they hardcore or so called "moderates"?
How is the husband-to-be around her gay brother?
How are his family around the gay brother?
You probably won't hear what most true Muslims think about gays on this board.

How are his family around her?
TBH being coerced into converting is a bad sign and shows he respects his religion more than he respects her or her lack of one.
It shows a domineering attitude and a control, these things generally do not get better over time.
It shows that he is very serious about his faith and possibly that his family will not under any circumstances accept a non-muslim in their family.
If they are that serious, how do they feel about the gays and the women working or having independent lives?
etc etc.

dlofnep

chicken fingers wrote: »

TBH being coerced into converting is a bad sign and shows he respects his religion more than he respects her or her lack of one.
It shows a domineering attitude and a control, these things generally do not get better over time.

I totally agree. The fact that she is being forced to convert, just to suit him demonstrates that she is already seen as subservient.

charlemont

You should look into the customs regarding Relationships, Women and Raising of Children from the mans home country, Islam is practised differently in different regions.
I'm normally respectful towards Muslims as were I live contains plenty of them and I must say they are good people but Iv heard some horror stories regarding being married to them, Particularly involving Muslims from the sub continent.

Starokan

thanks for the replies guys

re his family i have met some of them and they are great with her, she has experienced no problems at all in that regard. The same goes for himself, he is a really sound guy and seems he is 100% genuine.

I find some of the comments here regarding subserviance to be a bit disturbing as i cant see her taking to well to that plus in my mind we are all equal.

Again thanks for the replies, much appreciated

pinkheels88

Hi OP,

I'm a 23 year old female who is pretty much in the same situation as your female cousin at the moment. However, it's been said in this thread that she is being "forced" into conversion. I'm sure your cousin is a very intelligent woman and nobody with a degree of intelligence can be "forced" into accepting a religion and making such a major life decision. Surely, this is her own personal choice, and besides reverting to Islam for somebody else/to be with a Muslim is not really following the path. Choosing Islam is primarily about establishing your relationship with God, not with your partner.
I understand where your reservations are coming from, and sure, there are horror stories about Western women marrying Muslim men, but sadly for every abusive, domineering Muslim husband, there's a Christian/atheist/what have you equivalent. Religion isn't what motivates these violent men.
I have family members and friends who are worried about me at the moment. It's not that they're all close-minded, it's that they've been exposed to a certain stereotype. They haven't encountered Muslims in their life. Islam is an alien concept to them. I have been blessed in my life to have the opportunity to live and work in the Middle East, and I was struck by how genuine and kindhearted the Muslim people I have encountered have been, including my boyfriend. You said you've met some of her boyfriend's family? Perhaps you were struck by how friendly and warmhearted they were?
I wish you, and your cousin the best.
Salam

EvesBlogg

if she doesn't convert - they wont have a future?????????????????

As an irish woman i am sick hearing about these dumb ass fools giving up their beliefs. I have never heard of a muslim man converting to Catholicism so that he could marry his irish wife because if he didnt they wouldnt have a future. Catch them. Not in a million!!!!
Neither do you hear of these women having kids and calling them after their grandfather... Seamus, no its always mohammed or husain. Why? she has no voice thats why. her opinions on important things will not count..
good luck to her

chicken fingers

Look, the facts are that most of these women "reverting" to Islam are doing so for a fella not for god, no matter how many rituals you do, the fact of the matter is usually bad experiences dating men from original culture, you find muslim men are very into the white skin and very respectful and you think "this is it".
Maybe it is, but, probably, its not.

Pinkheels sounds like you are throwing yourself into your new religion and thats great.
But the profile of these women is always very similar, I won't go into it because I will be banned if I mention the personality traits they share.

Its fair enough, I suppose you done 6 months or a year in abu dhabi or dubai teaching english or something?
I'd also suppose the other half is not originally from the emirates.
Your family do have a right to be worried, but in most cases theres nothing that can be done, religions and cults are like that once you're in, its very difficult to get out.

Why not see if he really is "the one" and tell him he needs to convert to Christianity or renounce islam to be with you?
And maybe settle on a middle ground of "agree to differ" like normal equal adults?
(this does not happen, in the mind of a true Muslim, you are not their equal)

pinkheels88

chicken fingers wrote: »

Why not see if he really is "the one" and tell him he needs to convert to Christianity or renounce islam to be with you?
And maybe settle on a middle ground of "agree to differ" like normal equal adults?
(this does not happen, in the mind of a true Muslim, you are not their equal)

I think you're missing my point a little... There's a difference between "converting" because of a man, and converting because you believe in Islam and you feel blessed to have discovered it. Why would I give my other half such an ultimatum? I know he'd pick Islam! I would too!

Jaafa

dlofnep wrote: »

Women are most certainly treated as subservient to men in Islam.



Intolerance towards homosexuality in Islam is also high. Many Islamic states proscribe from lengthy prison spells to the death penalty for those found guilty of homosexuality.

She should not have to convert for him. Your fears are well justified. My cousin recently moved back to Ireland from England. She was married to a Muslim, and he beat her routinely and treated her like an animal. She was expected to be subservient to his every need.

It seems like your cousin was just with the wrong guy. Do not for a second think wife beating is common place with Muslim men. You'll note there are men who aren't Muslim who beat their wives. It is not exclusive to Muslim men. The only difference is they use Islam as their excuse. And that's all it is a pathetic misinformed excuse. Men who are capable of beating their wives will find any reason to justify it to themselves. If it wasn't Islam it would be something else.

Also OP I don't not understand why she feels she must convert? A Muslim man can marry a christian women. Does she realise this?

Starokan

Jaafa wrote: »

It seems like your cousin was just with the wrong guy. Do not for a second think wife beating is common place with Muslim men. You'll note there are men who aren't Muslim who beat their wives. It is not exclusive to Muslim men. The only difference is they use Islam as their excuse. And that's all it is a pathetic misinformed excuse. Men who are capable of beating their wives will find any reason to justify it to themselves. If it wasn't Islam it would be something else.

Also OP I don't not understand why she feels she must convert? A Muslim man can marry a christian women. Does she realise this?

She feels she has to convert because her boyfriend has said it is a must if they are to continue the relationship. He is looking towards marriage and wishes his wife to be of the same faith as him. This is not open to negotiation for him.

Personally i respect his feelings , i do think however that he could have warned her earlier on in the relationship that this would be necessary on her behalf.

@ pinkheels . thanks for your input and yes i have to say the members of his family i have met have been extremely warm hearted and kind, no question about that they are lovely people. Your post was great to read but i think you are approaching it from the right side in that you are embracing a faith. My cousin on the other hand will be simply converting to stay with the man she loves, the religious side will mean nothing to her.

Could i ask your opinion as someone who is also in the process of possibly converting how you feel on some of the more controversial issues such as homosexuality. As i said in the op my cousins brother is gay, he is the one finding this most hard to deal with as he feels it is going to result in him being alienated from his sister. Are you facing any major decisions like this . (No need to answer if that's to personal for a public forum)

Personally I think she should do whatever makes her happy, thats my over riding belief , its her life and islam may be the perfect path for her, she wont know until she tries and having seen how well she gets on with her boyfriend i think its more than likely they will have a wonderful life together. If it doesnt work then like any relationship she will have to deal with whatever the fall out is.

It would however sadden me somewhat to see her enter a relationship where she is expected to be subserviant to someone else, i cant see that being healthy in any way. Likewise if her relationship with her brother suffers that too would be very sad indeed as he is a great chap and their closeness has always been a source of joy within our family.

dlofnep

Jaafa wrote: »

It seems like your cousin was just with the wrong guy. Do not for a second think wife beating is common place with Muslim men. You'll note there are men who aren't Muslim who beat their wives. It is not exclusive to Muslim men.

I never stated either way. However - Islam allows for a man to hit his wife. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Muslim men do not beat their wife.

Jaafa

dlofnep wrote: »

I never stated either way. However - Islam allows for a man to hit his wife. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Muslim men do not beat their wife.

What evidence do you have? I take it your referring to An-Nisaa 34-35?

Jaafa

Starokan wrote: »

She feels she has to convert because her boyfriend has said it is a must if they are to continue the relationship. He is looking towards marriage and wishes his wife to be of the same faith as him. This is not open to negotiation for him.

Personally i respect his feelings , i do think however that he could have warned her earlier on in the relationship that this would be necessary on her behalf.

@ pinkheels . thanks for your input and yes i have to say the members of his family i have met have been extremely warm hearted and kind, no question about that they are lovely people. Your post was great to read but i think you are approaching it from the right side in that you are embracing a faith. My cousin on the other hand will be simply converting to stay with the man she loves, the religious side will mean nothing to her.

Could i ask your opinion as someone who is also in the process of possibly converting how you feel on some of the more controversial issues such as homosexuality. As i said in the op my cousins brother is gay, he is the one finding this most hard to deal with as he feels it is going to result in him being alienated from his sister. Are you facing any major decisions like this . (No need to answer if that's to personal for a public forum)

Personally I think she should do whatever makes her happy, thats my over riding belief , its her life and islam may be the perfect path for her, she wont know until she tries and having seen how well she gets on with her boyfriend i think its more than likely they will have a wonderful life together. If it doesnt work then like any relationship she will have to deal with whatever the fall out is.

It would however sadden me somewhat to see her enter a relationship where she is expected to be subserviant to someone else, i cant see that being healthy in any way. Likewise if her relationship with her brother suffers that too would be very sad indeed as he is a great chap and their closeness has always been a source of joy within our family.

Have you met her prospective husband? Does he seem like the type who would abuse her in any way?

Starokan

Jaafa wrote: »

Have you met her prospective husband? Does he seem like the type who would abuse her in any way?

Yes I have and no i would not think he would abuse her at all . He comes across as a really sound decent guy.

Jaafa

Starokan wrote: »

Yes I have and no i would not think he would abuse her at all . He comes across as a really sound decent guy.

Then IMO you should have nothing to worry about. Don't see Islam as some sort of abusive trigger that will kick in once he's married.

As regards the gay brother, she doesn't necessarily have to shun him (I dont know what her husbands views will be) and there are some pro LGBT elements within Islam. Perhaps she could look into them.

Standman

OP, you say your cousin is converting to Islam solely because it is a condition her boyfriend has put on their marriage. This seems to me a bit of a risky way to go into a marriage with someone. I mean fair enough she doesn't see the value in the religion alone and is just converting so she can marry the man she loves, but this decision will have an affect on her whole life. What about when they have kids? Will she be ok with them being raised in a faith that she herself has no real belief in? I'd imagine it could be quite hard on the conscience to raise your own kids in a religion which you have no real belief in yourself.

whydoc

Jaafa wrote: »

What evidence do you have? I take it your referring to An-Nisaa 34-35?

For anyone trying to abuse this ayah, Just for education purpose :rolleyes::
http://falsehoodgo.webs.com/foryou.htm

irishconvert

Starokan wrote: »

Hi all. My cousin is converting to islam and its caused some rifts within our family. I am not familar with many aspects of islam so i thought id post this here and perhaps i could take some positive facts/messages back which might help everyone. If I use any wrong terminology here please forgive me as this is all new to me.

The story is my cousin is 28 , she is converting to islam (she was raised catholic but has not been practising for a number of years). By her own admission her primary reason for converting is to marry her boyfriend who is a practising muslim. If she does not convert they will not have a future.

I have found some of the families reactions to be way over the top but there are some genuine concerns here that i will list. Perhaps someone here can share some of their knowledge which will allow me to allay some of their concerns and make my cousins life a bit easier and happier.

The main concerns seem to be:

- once she converts she will be expected to assume a subserviant role to her husband instead of an equal role
- her brother who is gay feels that he will lose his relationship with his sister simply because there is no tolerance for homosexuals within islam
-she will have to relinguish her career to focus on becoming a wife and mother

Could anyone advise if these are genuine scenarios that may occur. Ive spoken with my cousin as we are good friends, she has assured me that none of the above will happen and her husband to be understands this.

I should stress that our family is pretty close and that these difficulties that have arisen is due to genuine concern for her rather than non willingness to embrace another religion. For my own part im of the opinion that if it makes her happy she should do it.

My own concern would be that she is converting purely to marry someone instead of having a genuine interest in being part of the faith she is about to embrace.

Any advice/comments would be much appreciated

Some very quick factual answers from my own experience as an Irish Convert (I am male) as no doubt you will read a lot of tosh from people who don't have any experience of Islam.

- once she converts she will be expected to assume a subserviant role to her husband instead of an equal role - Not at all, Ask my wife!!

- her brother who is gay feels that he will lose his relationship with his sister simply because there is no tolerance for homosexuals within islam - I seriously doubt she will lose her relationship with him as families are very important in Islam. However we believe the practise of homosexuality is wrong, so she may try to convince him of this which could cause friction. However it is really down to her personality.

-she will have to relinguish her career to focus on becoming a wife and mother - No way! My wife is working full time in a senior management role. Her sister minds our baby.

Any more questions, ask away, or PM me.

irishconvert

dlofnep wrote: »

Women are most certainly treated as subservient to men in Islam.



Intolerance towards homosexuality in Islam is also high. Many Islamic states proscribe from lengthy prison spells to the death penalty for those found guilty of homosexuality.

She should not have to convert for him. Your fears are well justified. My cousin recently moved back to Ireland from England. She was married to a Muslim, and he beat her routinely and treated her like an animal. She was expected to be subservient to his every need.

My Irish born neighbour beat his wife black and blue, neither were Muslim. Does that make all Irish wifebeaters?

Please keep your bigoted views away from this forum.

irishconvert

pinkheels88 wrote: »

Hi OP,

I'm a 23 year old female who is pretty much in the same situation as your female cousin at the moment. However, it's been said in this thread that she is being "forced" into conversion. I'm sure your cousin is a very intelligent woman and nobody with a degree of intelligence can be "forced" into accepting a religion and making such a major life decision. Surely, this is her own personal choice, and besides reverting to Islam for somebody else/to be with a Muslim is not really following the path. Choosing Islam is primarily about establishing your relationship with God, not with your partner.
I understand where your reservations are coming from, and sure, there are horror stories about Western women marrying Muslim men, but sadly for every abusive, domineering Muslim husband, there's a Christian/atheist/what have you equivalent. Religion isn't what motivates these violent men.
I have family members and friends who are worried about me at the moment. It's not that they're all close-minded, it's that they've been exposed to a certain stereotype. They haven't encountered Muslims in their life. Islam is an alien concept to them. I have been blessed in my life to have the opportunity to live and work in the Middle East, and I was struck by how genuine and kindhearted the Muslim people I have encountered have been, including my boyfriend. You said you've met some of her boyfriend's family? Perhaps you were struck by how friendly and warmhearted they were?
I wish you, and your cousin the best.
Salam

Excellent post sister, I couldn't have put it better myself. Wassalaam.

irishconvert

Starokan wrote: »

The story is my cousin is 28 , she is converting to islam (she was raised catholic but has not been practising for a number of years). By her own admission her primary reason for converting is to marry her boyfriend who is a practising muslim. If she does not convert they will not have a future.

One more point, she does not have to convert. A Muslim man is allowed to marry a Christian or Jew woman. This is her husband's insistance, not a rule of Islam.

Eriu79

I do not believe anyone should convert to any religion for a man/woman I am an Atheist and would never dream of pretending to believe in God in order to pbe with a man. That being said her situation can not be assessed by any one person here without knowing her husband and his family I have met many muslims in many countries and as with any person from any religion you can not judge the person until you have been close to the situation.

Mark Hamill

Starokan wrote: »

The story is my cousin is 28 , she is converting to islam (she was raised catholic but has not been practising for a number of years). By her own admission her primary reason for converting is to marry her boyfriend who is a practising muslim. If she does not convert they will not have a future.

Why? Muslim men can marry christian women without either needing to convert.

Roughly where is the husband-to-be from? Will your sister be expected to move back with him? Does she have a career at the moment and has he said anything about it?

As for your reservations, well as I hope you can tell from the fairly varied responses you are getting, they are possible but not definite. Malaysian muslims are very different to Saudi muslims (almost as different as Irish christians and US bible belt christians), so you need to think about the background of the husband to be and where your sister will end up before you can decide on if its a good idea.

oceanclub

chicken fingers wrote: »

She won't be subservient, she will just be respected.

I'm not sure how one argues this in the context of a man demanding that a woman else give up her own cherished beliefs or else he will not marry her. One's beliefs are, essentially, part of one's unique identify. If he expect even her beliefs to be subservient to his, and does not respect them, then why would he not consider her subservient in every other way? If he respected her beliefs, why would he demand she give them (whether that includes _genuinely_ giving them up, or just pretending to in order to please him).

P.

dlofnep

irishconvert wrote: »

My Irish born neighbour beat his wife black and blue, neither were Muslim. Does that make all Irish wifebeaters?

So now the onus is on you to demonstrate where I stated that all Muslims were wife-beaters. In-fact, I actually stated:

I have no doubt that the vast majority of Muslim men do not beat their wife.

So how exactly did I state that all Muslims were wife-beaters?

irishconvert wrote: »

Please keep your bigoted views away from this forum.

My views aren't bigoted. Please learn to read before you accuse me of bigotry. The Qur'an teaches that women are inferior to men.

irishconvert

dlofnep wrote: »

So now the onus is on you to demonstrate where I stated that all Muslims were wife-beaters. In-fact, I actually stated:

...

So how exactly did I state that all Muslims were wife-beaters?

You said:

dlofnep wrote: »

Your fears are well justified. My cousin recently moved back to Ireland from England. She was married to a Muslim, and he beat her routinely and treated her like an animal. She was expected to be subservient to his every need.

Now you are giving an example of one case you know of where a Muslim man beat a woman and treated her like an animal. This is one case. So how is the OP's fears justified? From statement one can gather that you assume this one case is representitive of all Muslim men. If you disagree please clarify what you mean by this statement.

dlofnep wrote: »

My views aren't bigoted. Please learn to read before you accuse me of bigotry. The Qur'an teaches that women are inferior to men.

The Qur'an teaches that men and women are different and have different roles. It doesn't teach that either are inferior. Where do you get this view from? State the parts of the Qur'an you believe prove this.

dlofnep

irishconvert wrote: »

You said:


Now you are giving an example of one case you know of where a Muslim man beat a woman and treated her like an animal. This is one case. So how is the OP's fears justified? From statement one can gather that you assume this one case is representitive of all Muslim men. If you disagree please clarify what you mean by this statement.

I was referring to an intolerance to homosexuality within Islam. Her fears regarding the brother getting shunned were very much justified.

irishconvert wrote: »

The Qur'an teaches that men and women are different and have different roles. It doesn't teach that either are inferior. Where do you get this view from? State the parts of the Qur'an you believe prove this.

Verse 4:34 quite clearly confirms it.

irishconvert

dlofnep wrote: »

I was referring to an intolerance to homosexuality within Islam. Her fears regarding the brother getting shunned were very much justified.

Why then did you refer to a situation that had nothing to do with homosexuality but was about a Muslim man beating his wife? You were quite clearly refering to beating of women. You are being untruthful if you deny this and you know it.

dlofnep wrote: »

Verse 4:34 quite clearly confirms it.

It doesn't say women are inferior. It says

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means.

Men are obliged to support women, pay for them, give them a home, food, clothes and everything else that is necessary for living. We have to pay for this with our own earnings. A women does not have this obligation. Any money she has is hers, she does not have to spend a penny on her husband.

dlofnep

irishconvert wrote: »

Why then did you refer to a situation that had nothing to do with homosexuality but was about a Muslim man beating his wife? You were quite clearly refering to beating of women. You are being untruthful if you deny this and you know it.

If that was my assertion, then why did I append the following?

I have no doubt that the vast majority of Muslim men do not beat their wife.

I mentioned it because Islam permits for a man to hit his wife.

irishconvert wrote: »

It doesn't say women are inferior. It says


Men are obliged to support women, pay for them, give them a home, food, clothes and everything else that is necessary for living. We have to pay for this with our own earnings. A women does not have this obligation. Any money she has is hers, she does not have to spend a penny on her husband.

"Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

That is the whole verse. It asserts that women cannot be self-sufficient in wedlock. It also asserts that a man has the right to beat his wife.

irishconvert

Hi,

Hobbes here. I am just butting on this post as it appears it is being directly linked somewhere and people are raging without reviewing the full thread.

First up. The thread is locked. Discussion over, people can't talk in a civil manner, so its over. Reporting posts has no impact except to annoy me on something that admins/cmods/mods are already aware of.

Two. the actual post below is horrible.. if you take it out of context, which is what a lot of people are actually doing. If you actually read Irish Converts take on the subject is here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74125764&postcount=52

If you are new to the forum, I also recommend reading the forum charter. It explains the purpose of the forum. If you have an issue with Islam, the forum isn't for you. But we have many other forums were you are free to discuss your feelings on the subject.

[edit 2] Just to clarify. IrishConvert pointed out that in Islam they do have rules which allow you to hit your wife. You may not agree, which is perfectly acceptable (and IC doesn't appear to do it). But this in itself is not a banning offense.

Also before people think if a non-Muslim said the same thing they would be banned, it was a non Muslim who first stated it in the thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73892022&postcount=13

They were not banned/warning/reported for that post.

- Hobbes.

---

Original post

---

dlofnep wrote: »

If that was my assertion, then why did I append the following?

Why didn't you just correct your original incorrect post? You are now refering to a post made a day later.

dlofnep wrote: »

I mentioned it because Islam permits for a man to hit his wife.

Yes it does, under certain limited circumstances. It doesn't allow severe or regular beating of women. Women are allowed to divorce their husbands so if they are being abused then they can take this right.

dlofnep wrote: »

That is the whole verse. It asserts that women cannot be self-sufficient in wedlock.

It does not. It sets out the obligations of a man and is addressed to men. It does not forbid women to work or be self-sufficient. And as I mentioned earlier, if a women does work and earns her money, it is hers alone. She does not have to share it with her husband of family, as a man does. The same rule applies for inheritance, she keeps her share for herself to spend however she wishes whereas a man must share his portion out to his wife and family.

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

Yes it does, under certain limited circumstances. It doesn't allow severe or regular beating of women.

What do you consider valid circumstances for hitting your wife, and what do you consider not severe?

P.

dlofnep

irishconvert wrote: »

Yes it does, under certain limited circumstances.

Well, at least you admit it's permitted to beat your wife in Islam. I rest my case.

dead one

oceanclub wrote: »

What do you consider valid circumstances for hitting your wife, and what do you consider not severe?

P.

What would you do when your daughter/wife dates with strange men? ---She breaks the dignity/honor of house--- The punishment doesn't apply to all women--- It has restriction under certain social context.... If you don't follow that context then you have pimps/prostitutes/sex selling/porn moives etc---- You will have broken families system--- You will have outdoor sex

dead one

dlofnep wrote: »

Well, at least you admit it's permitted to beat your wife in Islam. I rest my case.

You with your case may rest in peace for the moment but the dead women in your case may not rest ----

Freiheit

Are you implying dead one that violence is the answer if a daughter dated someone you don't approve of?.

dlofnep

dead one wrote: »

You with your case may rest in peace for the moment but the dead women in your case may not rest ----

That doesn't make sense whatsoever.

oceanclub

dead one wrote: »

What would you do when your daughter/wife dates with strange men? ---She breaks the dignity/honor of house--- The punishment doesn't apply to all women--- It has restriction under certain social context.... If you don't follow that context then you have pimps/prostitutes/sex selling/porn moives etc---- You will have broken families system--- You will have outdoor sex

What do you consider a strange man?

If she dates a strange man, how much violence/beating against her is warranted? Do you have an example of what type of beating should be administered?

Also, do you think that if her father is beating her, and she perceives him as a violent abuser, it would push her to the man she's dating even more?

P.

dead one

Freiheit wrote: »

Are you implying dead one that violence is the answer if a daughter dated someone you don't approve of?.

What violence? Do you have the same problem of understanding --- See, in islam, male is head of family, head of family doesn't mean, he is superior or inferior to any other member of family... He has greater responsibility in family affairs than any other member of family --- Now, as a head, it is his responsibility to do what is best for by following God's orders.....
If any members of family breaks the rules of families or the limit which are given in the book of God then he/she is punishable for violating the message of God.....
I tell you what is real violence that you may think. i aint attacking on your society which is standing on wishfulthinking but i giving you a time to think that you may understand... See, this pure violence on which your society is going to suicide....

"In your/western society, today, kids do not get the tender loving care from their parents, and as a result the family system is destroyed . The husband and wife both work outside their home at different places. A free and uninhibited atmosphere prevails at both work places. So, at times the views and interests of the couple begin to diverge and the marriage undergoes a strain. Illegitimate extra marital liaisons begin to develop and the marriage breaks down. Divorce drives the final nail into the coffin. The home is destroyed!"


The society allowed the family system to decline and disintegrate because it failed to realize the purpose of the creation of woman.... The women is being used as show piece in commercial... You are trading in the name of freedom..... Isn't it violence my comrade.....

MagicMarker

OP, there is no such thing as ''factual'' answers here, just because a muslim on this board doesn't expect his wife to be subservient to him, or to give up her career, or to shun her gay brother means absolutely nothing.

The fact is, you're sister's BF might expect all of these things, or he may not. But imo, insisting that your sister convert, and this being non-negotiable, is not a very good start. What other things are non-negotiable? Will she be expected to adhere to prayer rituals, ramadan etc?

I think she really needs to think long term here, this decision doesn't just effect her but also future children.

EDIT: And one more thing OP, appearances can be deceiving. I'm in no way saying this man will physically abuse your sister, but since when do abusers of any kind look like or appear to be abusers?

Mark Hamill

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Why? Muslim men can marry christian women without either needing to convert.

Roughly where is the husband-to-be from? Will your sister be expected to move back with him? Does she have a career at the moment and has he said anything about it?

As for your reservations, well as I hope you can tell from the fairly varied responses you are getting, they are possible but not definite. Malaysian muslims are very different to Saudi muslims (almost as different as Irish christians and US bible belt christians), so you need to think about the background of the husband to be and where your sister will end up before you can decide on if its a good idea.

Yes, if he is insisting on this it might be more worrisome because of him in particular and his background and expectations rather than just his religion.

dead one

oceanclub wrote: »

What do you consider a strange man?

If she dates a strange man, how much violence/beating against her is warranted? Do you have an example of what type of beating should be administered?

Also, do you think that if her father is beating her, and she perceives him as a violent abuser, it would push her to the man she's dating even more?

P.

first tell me, would you allow your daughter/wife to date with other men.... then i will give answer what you wrote above....

oceanclub

dead one wrote: »

first tell me, would you allow to your daugther/wife to date with other men.... then i will give answer what you wrote above....

I'll ask the questions, thanks. I'll assume your refusal to answer means you don't want to publically reveal the level of violence you would administer to a woman.

Perhaps Irishconvert could answer instead?

P.

dead one

oceanclub wrote: »

I'll ask the questions, thanks. I'll assume your refusal to answer means you don't want to publically reveal the level of violence you would administer to a woman.

Perhaps Irishconvert could answer instead?

P.

No, don't run for Christ's sake? Please tell, would you allow? then I will give you a very clear and a detailed answer?

Starokan

cheers for all the replys people. some very interesting points and views here. Just as an update things have calmed down somewhat.

My own view as I said back in the op is she should do what makes her happy and that has probably become the prevalent attitude.


re the issues i mentioned originally her fiance is hapy for her to continue with her career but when kids arrive he told her he would prefer her to be a stay at home mother with them. She seems perfectly happy about this so no issue there.

as for being subserviant she said its just not an issue with them and it never will be which is also good.

She will be converting to islam if they get married for the simple reason that her fiance does not wish to be married to someone not of the same faith as him. He is very concerned that any children would be raised in his faith. He has asked her to take some time and examine islam as a religion and see if it is a path for her. He is putting her under no time pressure and is prepared to wait for her answer, he particularly wants her to understand what her children would be raised to believe.

I guess the ultimatum is still there but in my opinion he is being upfront and honest as to his feelings and what more can you ask for.

The real divisive issue has been her brother. This became a very contentious topic for them as he in line with his religion believes that homosexuality is wrong. Let me stress he is by no means rude to her brother , the opposite in fact but its a very very difficult one for her to get her head around as she loves her brother dearly and would never want him to feel excluded in any way

I hope they resolve it all and get married as they are a great couple together and he treats her so well. Having said that I think it was exceptionally naive of them not to have these conversations far earlier in their relationship as a lot of this toing and froing could be avoided.

Anyhows cheers for all the input , much appreciated , ill let you know how it turns out

Freiheit

Religion in general,responsible for so much prejudice and discrimination,for no reason other than ancient figures 'who said it was so'. Is it based on science? or new research ? no....just homophobic interpretations of an ancient text. Again there is schools of Islam who do accommodate lgbtq identities and for anyone in such a situation these should be explored.

Blonks

No offense but your sister seems a little ridiculous. How does one convert to Islam? Does one simply put on the Islam badge and wear the burka - I dont think so. Seeing that she was a non-practising Catholic, that would pretty much sum up her view of God - not really a believer but a you never know just-in-case kinda person. (I'm in I have the badge! -rubbish) Can she just switch on her belief switch and decide because of love that yes she now believes - I think not. This would make her conversion a hollow gesture and not much more than a cultural decision. Why would she not explore her own faith first seeing that we are talking about the same God in both religions and decide whether she actually does believe. Then the loss of her own religion might actually have some significance.

As an aside ... Freiheit I cant believe you posted that turd.

irishconvert

Freiheit wrote: »

Religion in general,responsible for so much prejudice and discrimination,for no reason other than ancient figures 'who said it was so'. Is it based on science? or new research ? no....just homophobic interpretations of an ancient text. Again there is schools of Islam who do accommodate lgbtq identities and for anyone in such a situation these should be explored.

What a nonsense post. There is as much prejudice and discrimination among non-religious people as religious people. This is not the forum for general sweeping statements, if that is your thing than perhaps you would feel more at home posting in After Hours

irishconvert

oceanclub wrote: »

What do you consider valid circumstances for hitting your wife, and what do you consider not severe?

P.

I don't know, I haven't been in a situation where I felt it was appropriate. I stress that hitting a wife is to be regarded is a last resort.

dlofnep wrote: »

Well, at least you admit it's permitted to beat your wife in Islam. I rest my case.

I don't quite know what your case is when you are chopping and changing your opinions from post to post, then denying you said what is written in clear text for everyone to see.

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't know, I haven't been in a situation where I felt it was appropriate. I stress that hitting a wife is to be regarded is a last resort.

Well, I'm curious what that last resort would be. And how much hitting is appropriate? Where would you hit her, for example?

And what if she reported it to the police? Would you consider this a violation of your religious rights?

P.