family members conversion causing difficulties

irishconvert

oceanclub wrote: »

Well, I'm curious what that last resort would be. And how much hitting is appropriate? Where would you hit her, for example?

And what if she reported it to the police? Would you consider this a violation of your religious rights?

P.

Look, to be honest I am not the type of person who goes around hitting anyone, my wife included. To get to the stage of hitting your wife, you first have to be in a position where you are so annoyed you are no longer sleeping in the same bed as her. My opinion is that if you are at this stage and you feel you have to hit your wife then you may as well call time on the marriage. Actually if I did hit my wife I think she would divorce me quicker than you can say sharia law!

Siuin

dead one wrote: »

first tell me, would you allow your daughter/wife to date with other men.... then i will give answer what you wrote above....

ALLOW your daughter to date other men? (I'm excluding 'wife' since if she is your wife, one would think that she isn't dating other guys...) - last time I checked, I didn't have to seek permission from my father on who to date. Unfortunately, Islam isn't so keen on allowing women the right to self determination.

Siuin

irishconvert wrote: »

Look, to be honest I am not the type of person who goes around hitting anyone, my wife included. To get to the stage of hitting your wife, you first have to be in a position where you are so annoyed you are no longer sleeping in the same bed as her. My opinion is that if you are at this stage and you feel you have to hit your wife then you may as well call time on the marriage. Actually if I did hit my wife I think she would divorce me quicker than you can say sharia law!

And what if the tables are turned and you are the one annoying her? Oops, that's right- she can't make sanctions against you, and heaven forbid she lay a finger on you. It appears that only women can be classed as disobedient in Islam...

Freiheit

Posted by Irishconvert ****What a nonsense post. There is as much prejudice and discrimination among non-religious people as religious people. This is not the forum for general sweeping statements, if that is your thing than perhaps you would feel more at home posting in After Hours******
Irishconvert I really question your temperament and thus suitability to moderate. Your manner is bellicose like and rather than engage in rational discussion all you do is make threats against members or ban them when you don't agree with what's said. You never discuss,just like you didn't above.

Your response doesn't answer my post it merely attempts to deflect it. Of course there is homophobia amongst non-religous people but I'm hoping that that will change in line with new scientific discoveries. Your school of Islam is fixed and is not open to new knowledge.

There is schools of thought in Islam which advocate that Islam should assimilate such new knowledge and adapt in accordance with new realities. If there is prejudice from others sources it doesn't excuse it from your or other schools of Islam.

Incidentally if the man in question believes that a gay brother in law is simply wrong in his lifestyle,will he in time want his children to have interaction with someone whose lifestyle he believes to be wrong?. What if one of the children is gay or bisexual themselves?. What sort of person also expects someone to join a faith in which they themselves don't believe?.

I'm taking a copy of this post in case it's deleted by the moderator who seeks to censor debate rather than engage with it.

Lady Chuckles

Jaafa wrote: »

Have you met her prospective husband? Does he seem like the type who would abuse her in any way?

I'm sorry, I just have to say something now...

A few of you ask the OP if the husband-to-be seem abusive in any way, and the OP answers no.

But how often can people (from the outside) spot someone who's abusive? In many cases the abuse is hidden and abusive people are sound and friendly outside of their home.

I'm not saying the man is question is abusive or anything, I'm just saying no one can really tell.

oceanclub

irishconvert wrote: »

Look, to be honest I am not the type of person who goes around hitting anyone, my wife included. To get to the stage of hitting your wife, you first have to be in a position where you are so annoyed you are no longer sleeping in the same bed as her. My opinion is that if you are at this stage and you feel you have to hit your wife then you may as well call time on the marriage. Actually if I did hit my wife I think she would divorce me quicker than you can say sharia law!

Well if you think it's wrong - and if you think it's wrong, I'm not sure why you're defending that tenet of your religion - what do you think is acceptable in general then? We've seen one regular in the group defending this, including hitting his daughter for dating men he doesn't approve of (I presume that includes adult daughters). How much violence is it permissable to inflict? Also, what about when the laws of the land conflict with this?

P.

carolmon

oceanclub wrote: »

How much violence is it permissable to inflict? Also, what about when the laws of the land conflict with this?

P.

Exactly the point!
No abuse should be excused in the name of culture or religion and no abuse should be deemed exempt from the rule of law on this basis.

Hobbes

Hi,

The lot of you should know by now..

1. If you have an issue with Islam, this is not the forum for you to post in (unless you can follow the charter).

2. You have an issue with a post you use the report post button.

3. You attack the post and not the poster. (even if their views do not reflect your own)

Please do not follow up in this thread regarding what I just mentioned. Thanks.

[edit] Oh, btw Mods related to the issue reported are not allowed moderate on that issue. Nor do we delete/modify other peoples posts. If a post is deleted, the content is left intact for admin/cmods. So there is no censorship here.

dlofnep

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't quite know what your case is when you are chopping and changing your opinions from post to post, then denying you said what is written in clear text for everyone to see.

I didn't deny stating anything, nor did I chop and change any of my opinions. You made a false accusation, which I pointed out to be false by quoting one of my posts I had posted PRIOR to your accusation, which clarified my original post.

So spare me the melodrama.

Hobbes

- once she converts she will be expected to assume a subserviant role to her husband instead of an equal role
- her brother who is gay feels that he will lose his relationship with his sister simply because there is no tolerance for homosexuals within islam
-she will have to relinguish her career to focus on becoming a wife and mother

Ignoring the rest but in response to those.

1. Has been mentioned in depth on other posts here. The short answer is the woman is considered equal and has rights. It is not a one sided marriage.

2. Can't answer this one. I guess it depends on the level of how far they take religion. In the same way many Christians don't have an issue with gays, but a Christian Evangelists will. You would be better to answer this from talking to them.

3. For the most part this is BS. Again it depends on who they are marrying. Of Muslims I know personally in work, many are female and some are even management/execs, with children I might add.

dlofnep

Hobbes wrote: »

Ignoring the rest but in response to those.

1. Has been mentioned in depth on other posts here. The short answer is the woman is considered equal and has rights. It is not a one sided marriage.

How is the woman considered equal?

Qur'an 23:1-6—The Believers must (eventually) win through—those who humble themselves in their prayers; who avoid vain talk; who are active in deeds of charity; who abstain from sex; except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess—for (in their case) they are free from blame.

Qur'an 33:50—O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee . . .

Promotes the rape and ownership of captive women. Treats women in general as property - re: 'right hand possesses'.

"Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

Promotes the idea that the male is the guardian of women and the favoured sex, and thus superior. Also permits a man to beat his wife.

How exactly are females treated as equals?

dead one

Siuin wrote: »

ALLOW your daughter to date other men? (I'm excluding 'wife' since if she is your wife, one would think that she isn't dating other guys...) - last time I checked, I didn't have to seek permission from my father on who to date. Unfortunately, Islam isn't so keen on allowing women the right to self determination.

I don't have any daughter /wife to allow to date with other men... Why islam is keen in protecting this relation of woman..... A woman is purest relation on earth in form of mother/sister/daugther/wife..... .... Do you agree? but west has corrupted this pure relation in form of girlfriends---- West has corrupted the base of family system by allowing their daughters and wives to date with strange men..west has corrupted all these precious relations in the name of freedom of woman.... Islam is solution for all of your problems which you see every..... Why don't you have perfect family systems.... Have you ever wonder--- why children do not receive the tender loving care from their parents,.... It is because you have degraded and misuse this pious relation in the name of freedom....
Mikhail Gorbachev, he describes status of women in westren society by his own word

“The extent of women’s emancipation is often viewed as a yardstick to be used in judging the social and political level of society. The Soviet state put an end to the discrimination against women so typical of tsarist Russia with determination and without compromise. Women gained a legally-guaranteed social status equal with men. We are proud of what the Soviet government has given women: the same right to work as men, equal pay for equal work and social security. Women have been given every opportunity to get an education, to have a career, and to participate in social and political activities. Without the contribution and selfless work of women, we would not have built a new society nor won the war against fascism. But over the years of our difficult and heroic history, we failed to pay attention to women’s specific rights and needs arising from their role as mother and home-maker, and their indispensable educational function as regards children. Engaged in scientific research, working on construction sites, in production and in the services, and involved in creative activities, women no longer have enough time to perform their everyday duties at home – housework, the upbringing of children and the creation of a good family atmosphere. We have discovered that many of our problems – in children’s and young people’s behavior, in our morals, culture and in production – are partially caused by the weakening of family ties and slack attitude to family responsibilities. This is a paradoxical result of our sincere and politically justified desire to make women equal with men in everything. Now, in the course of perestroika, we have begun to overcome this shortcoming. That is why we are now holding heated debates in the press, in public organizations, at work and at home, about the question of what we should do to make it possible for women to return to their purely womanly mission.”

This is all what you are saying ALLOW your daughters to date other men? .... I ain't stopping any woman from dating with other men.... Soon you will suffer with consequences of your actions... A pure muslim women will accept death bravely than allowing her body to hungry men.... .That's the difference between islamic and western thinking.... I hope you would clear..... why islam is so keen? The society allowed the family system to decline and disintegrate because it failed to realize the purpose of the creation of woman

dead one

dlofnep wrote: »

How is the woman considered equal?

These verses posted by you have some context and you are trying to apply them out of context.... which is pure of example of dishonesty which also shows you can use any dishonest mean to prove yourself honest in your points..... Now tell, context of all those verses???

oceanclub

dead one wrote: »

West has corrupted the base of family system by allowing their daughters and wives to date with strange men.

I think you'll find it that it's in Islam, not Christianity or European secularism, that polygamy is justified (though even then not considered the norm). Looking around my considerable circle of friends and acquaintances, mostly decadent non-religious Westerners, there are no wives dating strange men.

P.

Hobbes

dlofnep wrote: »

How is the woman considered equal?

As I said it has been discussed in depth on the forum. You are welcome to search through it.

Promotes the rape and ownership of captive women. Treats women in general as property - re: 'right hand possesses'.

I hope you read in the charter about quoting out of context. I'll let it slide this time. But I refer you to my earlier post.

Even a casual search will give you more details about treatment of slaves, which doesn't exactly agree with your claim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_malakat_aymanukum

An-Nur 24:33 : But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is Allah, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful
...

Abbas said, "If you do that, then Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful, and their sin will be on the one who forced them to do that."

...
An-Nisa 36 reminds readers that a believer should do good to a variety of people, including "what your right hands possess".

dead one

dead one wrote: »

A pure muslim women will accept death bravely than allowing her body to hungry men....

Better make him a sandwich first so

MagicMarker

You know what's hilarious? If an atheist was saying the exact same shíte dead one is saying, they'd probably be banned!! :pac:

brimal

irishconvert wrote: »

dlofnep wrote:

I mentioned it because Islam permits for a man to hit his wife.

Yes it does, under certain limited circumstances. It doesn't allow severe or regular beating of women. Women are allowed to divorce their husbands so if they are being abused then they can take this right.

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't know, I haven't been in a situation where I felt it was appropriate. I stress that hitting a wife is to be regarded is a last resort.

irishconvert wrote: »

Look, to be honest I am not the type of person who goes around hitting anyone, my wife included. To get to the stage of hitting your wife, you first have to be in a position where you are so annoyed you are no longer sleeping in the same bed as her.

I can't believe what I'm reading :eek:

dead one

oceanclub wrote: »

I think you'll find it that it's in Islam, not Christianity or European secularism, that polygamy is justified (though even then not considered the norm).

ignorance isn't crime.... Polygamy (plurality of wives) is main question in the family system of Islam. The following are a few points:

As a pure religion that gives real solutions for humanity, Islam avoided any utopian doctrine. In many of its laws, Islam sees the flexibility of the law and the realistic factors and circumstances. A law can not be 100% good for every person, groups, culture, or country. However, Islam considers the over all values and gaining. If the advantages of a law overcome its disadvantages, then that law would be legislated and vise versa. This concept is driven from Quran: “They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great harm (sin) and some benefits for people; but the harm (sin) is greater than the benefits (2:219).”Polygamy, like any other law, has its disadvantages and advantages on both the husband and the wife. But do those advantages overweigh the disadvantages?
I) Polygamy before Islam

Polygamy existed before the advent of Islam among several civilizations and religions. All that Islam has done is restricted it and make more organized and civilized.
In his book, History of Civilization (vol.1 p.61), Will Durant says:
The clerics in the Middle Ages thought that polygamy was an innovation of the Prophet of Islam. But that is not the case. As we have seen, it has been practiced in most societies before Islam.
Among the history lots of stories were narrated about men who cheated on their wives or got married with more than one. Take an example from the bible: some people accuse prophets and make them look sinful just not to say they had more than one wife. Isn’t that Abraham (peace be up on him) was married Sarah and from her he had Isaac and simultaneously he was married to his made and had from her Ishmael?

oceanclub wrote: »

I think you'll find it that it's in Islam, not Christianity or European secularism,

The following are some phrases from the bible
"After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him."
2 Samuel 5:13
"He (Solomon) had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines..."
1 Kings 11:3
"And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
Genesis 4:19
"If a man have two wives, one beloved, and another hated, and they have born him children, both the beloved and the hated; and if the first-born son be hers that was hated: then it shall be, when he maketh..."
Deuteronomy 21:15
"if he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall her not diminish."
Exodus 21:10

The point here is not to say that monogamy never been practiced or not applicable. However, it is just a wondering that how come the legalized polygamy in Islam is inferior to the unlimited clandestine adultery in other religions and civilizations.
Is that Fair?
Answering that question is not simple since each case has its own circumstances. First of all, the question would be; why is the husband thinking about another wife, especially when both partners have agreed to dysfunction polygamy in their marriage life. In this case and before divorcing, a social worker assigned by the Islamic Court has to study the case and judges it. For instance, may be the husband wants children and his current wife is barren but yet he still loves her and wants to keep her as a wife in addition to his new one. Furthermore, if the wife is the one who is controlling the divorce process -not the husband- then she can divorce her husband if that avails her. Overall, Same question would be asked. As an American is it fair that I can divorce my wife or she can divorce me at any time.
III)Polygamy could be a Natural and social need?
What if:
- There are some men by nature need more than one wife and their wives have no problem with polygamy.
- Monogamy is not just a theory and is thoroughly practiced, so no more men were allowed to cheat on their wives. Do you think for that group of people- who never naturally get satisfied by one wife- Monogamy is a solution and is sufficient?
- There are women who have no problem in marrying a man already having a wife especially if a marriage is in their interest.
- The majority of society are women keeping in mind that:
o Marriage age of puberty mostly begins earlier in girls than in boys.
o The power of proliferation of women ceases at a certain age, after which pregnancy is very rare case, whereas there is no such fixed age for men.
In this case where no enough men, do we tell those women just disregard your emotion and desire or just abuse yourself through unlawful acts like being Homosexual.

oceanclub wrote: »

I think you'll find it that it's in Islam, not Christianity or European secularism,

IV) Homosexuality but not Polygamy!
It is so ironic that several western countries and some American states legalizing homosexuality under the excuses of genetic and psychological problems or nature, but yet disregarding vehemently any excuse for polygamy....Keep in mind that in Homosexuality, a homo is destroying the structure of family by emphasizing strongly and exclusively on his/her lust and disregarding other bonds and factors that could create a continuation of a peaceful tranquil society. In addition to that, Homosexuality makes a person’s live under the emergency of lust and desire which starts growing infinitely and calls for desire saturation at any time or any where jeopardizing the pure ordinary relation between any two people.
While in polygamy, the person is restricting him self to more responsibilities and commitments since he has to be just with his wives and treat them co-equally in everything: money, living, emotion, etc. By that, he is just establishing a bigger family and limiting him self to a clear honest accepted relation.

V) Polygamy and its Preconditions in Islam
Islam allows polygamy on some condition and here are some of them:
a- The wife(s) has no objection about polygamy during or before the marriage contract. And if the husband disregards that, the wife has the right to raise that to the Islamic court.
b- Equitable treatment for all the wives
c- Number of wives not to exceed four.

oceanclub wrote: »

Looking around my considerable circle of friends and acquaintances, mostly decadent non-religious Westerners, there are no wives dating strange men.

There are also no husbands around ---- why because--- The society allowed the family system to decline and disintegrate because it failed to realize the purpose of the creation of woman.....

oceanclub

dead one wrote: »

*snip*

I'm not going to read paragraphs upon paragraphs of text - you're wasting both your own time and mine - but the hypocrisy of you being in favour of polygamy for men while in favour of beating up women who want to decide on their own partner is staggering. I hope the OP is taking note.

P.

KarlDrake

oceanclub wrote: »

...the hypocrisy of you being in favour of polygamy for men while in favour of beating up women who want to decide on their own partner is staggering.

Plus many.

dead one

oceanclub wrote: »

I'm not going to read paragraphs upon paragraphs of text - you're wasting both your own time and mine - but the hypocrisy of you being in favour of polygamy for men while in favour of beating up women who want to decide on their own partner is staggering. I hope the OP is taking note.

P.

I don't favor polygamy for men? it's not necessary in islam, if you want to marry one woman then marry one.... That isn't hypocrisy on my part but on your part.... You take polygamy as an excuse to torch your own reason about isalm but you ignored polygamy in Christianity as your above quote show your ignorance and ignorance isn't bliss.... You forget homosexuality in secular western state which is worst than polygamy.......... I prefer to marry one woman, Islam doesn't say you must marry more than one woman.... You aren't going to read paragraphs because you don't have courage to see the truth.... and you can't answer those paragraphs because you're blissfully ignorant about Islam....
Now you raise question again and again of beating of woman but you had ignored my question..... Here is again what i asked you before
1. As a father!!! will you allow your daughter/wife to share bed with different men....
2. As a father!!! will you allow your son to be a drunkard...
3. As a husband, will you be able to see your wife to have relation with a strange man....
Please answer above three points, then i will give the reason of punishment.... why punishment is mention in Qur'an about rebellious woman.... Please, let's talk some logic, answer above points so that i can tell you real purpose of why punishment in necessary in some certain conditions...

dead one

KarlDrake wrote: »

Plus many.

Like i said, i don't favor polygamy, it isn't necessary in islam, It's just a solution for your problems like homosexuality, Here is good reason why islam permitted polygamy under certain conditions....

""""In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.
Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million females in U.S.A who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain, 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband.
Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. All those who are modest will opt for the first.
In Western society, it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and lead a protected life.
Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to marry a married man or to become public property. Islam prefers giving women the honourable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the second.
There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygamy, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women. """""

tfitzgerald

There is no time when there is justification for hitting your wife and I have to say one of my biggest problems with Islam is the way woman are treated Also dead one you say " your problems like homosexuality" I have no problems with it unlike in Iran where they hang 15 year old boys who are homosexual because it's an afront to Islam

dead one

tfitzgerald wrote: »

There is no time when there is justification for hitting your wife and I have to say one of my biggest problems with Islam is the way woman are treated

Great, the punishment isn't for all the women, it has restricted social context..... So, you really have problem with hitting a woman who wishes to destroy the family system and future of children.... But, you don't have any problem with prostitutes, pimps and women who produce children having no father...... Which is big problem????.... If you hit or punish any member of family who wants to destroy family then that hitting is even far better than that lust which is wandering in the streets of west.... Open your eyes comrade, you have to see some more truth?

KarlDrake

You're some character.

You see homosexuality as a problem.
You see violence towards women as an acceptable way of disciplining them. (!)

You do know what year this is, right? So why do you live your life by dark age rules?

That is the behaviour of the weak minded and spiritually bankrupt.

I'm astounded that the otherwise excellent moderators have not banned you. I wish you well in your own life but I suggest you first have a long hard look at it.

halkar

Starokan wrote: »

She feels she has to convert because her boyfriend has said it is a must if they are to continue the relationship. He is looking towards marriage and wishes his wife to be of the same faith as him. This is not open to negotiation for him.

Just for the above lines she should walk away. If he does not respect her religion than he has no respect for her. I am muslim and my wife is catholic. I have never asked my wife to convert. Both myself and my family respects her for what she is not for what she believes. We are happily married 20 years.

tfitzgerald

dead one wrote: »

Great, the punishment isn't for all the women, it has restricted social context..... So, you really have problem with hitting a woman who wishes to destroy the family system and future of children.... But, you don't have any problem with prostitutes, pimps and women who produce children having no father...... Which is big problem????.... If you hit or punish any member of family who wants to destroy family then that hitting is even far better than that lust which is wandering in the streets of west.... Open your eyes comrade, you have to see some more truth?

This has to be a con nobody in there right minds thinks like this . But I can tell you this as the father of three girls if you hit one of them I would not be turning the other cheek I would be sending you to meet Allah " peace be upon him"

Beruthiel

dead one wrote: »

If you hit or punish any member of family who wants to destroy family then that hitting is even far better

That is NEVER a good reason to hit another human being.
It is a barbaric, basic, unintelligent attitude perpetuated by neanderthals.
Any wo/man who resorts to that kind of thing is no better than an animal.

dead one

KarlDrake wrote: »

You're some character.

thanks

KarlDrake wrote: »

You see homosexuality as a problem.

"Keep in mind that in Homosexuality, a homo is destroying the structure of family by emphasizing strongly and exclusively on his/her lust and disregarding other bonds and factors that could create a continuation of a peaceful tranquil society. In addition to that, Homosexuality makes a person’s live under the emergency of lust and desire which starts growing infinitely and calls for desire saturation at any time or any where jeopardizing the pure ordinary relation between any two people."
You see no problem, great

KarlDrake wrote: »

You see violence towards women as an acceptable way of disciplining them. (!)

i don't see violence, i have never hit a woman in my whole even a woman had hit me badly, i seek no revenge for what she had done-- even i could take revenge......i always treat women gently.... Punishment isn't violence, if punishment is violence then why you have prisoners, why you have courts. Family is like an organized institution, if any member tries to break law of that institution or tries to corrupt the justice of institutions then he/she should be punishment.... If you don't punish then women in west are practical example...... like prostitute, pimps, children having no father.... isn't it much bigger problem than lightly hitting a woman...

KarlDrake wrote: »

You do know what year this is, right? So why do you live your life by dark age rules?

I have seen true face of the your civilsation, where streets of freedom are extended gutters and gutters are filled by blood and violence...

KarlDrake wrote: »

That is the behaviour of the weak minded and spiritually bankrupt.

Once you're corrupt you can't distinguish between "good" and "bad"

KarlDrake wrote: »

I'm astounded that the otherwise excellent moderators have not banned you. I wish you well in your own life but I suggest you first have a long hard look at it.

Excellent, I didn't abuse any one, why an excellent moderator should ban me.... Isn't it an excuse, that you can't face me.... or you don't have space to run from me...

Hobbes

My earlier warning appears to have gone on deaf ears.

Clearly people are incapable of attacking the post rather then the poster (even if you fully disagree with them). Nor is one persons opinion reflective of a whole religion.

Locking this thread so as to avoid banning people.

[edit] Welcome people from Twitter. The TL;DR version is here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=74085716#post74085716