Question: Irish BJJ Open

da-bres

This is a question to the organizers of the Irish open, IBJJA Peeps,

According to BJJ.ie website the irish open is scheduled for 23rd of october (same date as the british no gi open)

Is this going ahead???

I have booked the days off work, according to the data available, But its worth noting I booked the irish closed and Dublin open dates off as well and they never happened.

Killme00

Thanks

I hope it goes ahead and hopefully the Dublin open can be rearranged too.

Clive

da-bres wrote: »

This is a question to the organizers of the Irish open, IBJJA Peeps,

According to BJJ.ie website the irish open is scheduled for 23rd of october (same date as the british no gi open)

Is this going ahead???

I have booked the days off work, according to the data available, But its worth noting I booked the irish closed and Dublin open dates off as well and they never happened.

That's 2010 - there's no confirmed 2011 date as far as I know.

Killme00

Clive wrote: »

That's 2010 - there's no confirmed 2011 date as far as I know.

Hi Clive,

Any idea if it will go ahead this year?

There were 160 competitors at the Munster Open and 106 register so far for the Irish BJJ Cup. I think those numbers make it a viable competition.

Going forward it would be great to build the Irish Open in a similar vein to the Swedish Open (600+ competitors over two days) and the English Open (400 competitors over two days).

Let me know if i can be of any assistance. I'm sure others would be willing to get involved too.

Regards,
Tom

da-bres

Id gladly help out too!:) It would be a shame if it didn't go ahead:(

Tim_Murphy

Why wouldn't it be going ahead?

da-bres

We are almost 9 months into the year and the irish closed, dublin open and the Irish Open have yet to happen. These were all included in the IBJJA's list of competitions this year.

According to bjj.ie

May 8th – Irish closed
Oct 23rd Irish Open (2011)

Dublin Open was cancelled as well back in February.

Barry.Oglesby

I agree with the sentiments here. Having spoken to guys on the IBJJA board, there's some restructuring to be done and it will be done soon. It's a voluntary thing remember so I think they'll be asking people in the BJJ community to chip in.

I hope to see the Irish Open happen before 2011 is out and I'll be happy to facilitate it. I think we should be looking to make it one of Europe's best tournaments, and we have the proximity to the UK, a Ryanair hub and plenty of NAMA hotels in our favour to make it an international event.

Tim_Murphy

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I agree with the sentiments here. Having spoken to guys on the IBJJA board, there's some restructuring to be done and it will be done soon. It's a voluntary thing remember so I think they'll be asking people in the BJJ community to chip in.

I hope to see the Irish Open happen before 2011 is out and I'll be happy to facilitate it. I think we should be looking to make it one of Europe's best tournaments, and we have the proximity to the UK, a Ryanair hub and plenty of NAMA hotels in our favour to make it an international event.

In fairness, the organisation of the competition would have to come on a long way from last years one for that.

Barry.Oglesby

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

In fairness, the organisation of the competition would have to come on a long way from last years one for that.

I wasn't at that so I can't comment. What I will say is that tournaments are a bit of a labour of love and are tough to run, so I don't like to criticise too much. However with the technology out there right now, they're becoming easier each time you run one. I don't think it's too unreasonable to expect that the Irish Open be the best, most attended BJJ tournament in Ireland. And I think that's possible.

Clive

Well it's great that there's such enthusiasm for the Irish Open. I'll see if I can find anything out.

r_obric

Who organised the irish open for the last few years?

David Jones

I used to provide the facility (this was not my tournament) for the Irish Open and the mmaleague amongst others. However two things have prevented that from ever happening again.

1. At one of last years mma league events, parents and relatives of a particular group of competitors decided it would be ok to smoke cannabis outside the hall on school property on a Saturday morning at 11am whilst Under 10, Under11 and and under 12 rugby and hockey was going on with parents etc watching their kids. Upon asking them to leave and take their competitor sons with them and on getting them disqualified from the competition, I had to listen to a tirade of abuse. That unfortunately was the reason I cannot facilitate the mma league anymore.

2. Competitors and supporters at all competitions that I have hosted seem to think that bins are ornaments and not for actually putting litter in. Throwing litter on the floor is fine, throwing toilet roll down the toilets is fine, spilling coffee, powerade etc on the sportshall floor is fine etc etc The someones who have to clean it up were always Gillian and I and I was no longer prepared to do that. It was generally assumed that we would put out the matted areas and number the areas and provide tables and benches etc etc, take delivery of mats etc all for free.

Finally, I personally didnt feel most of the competitions in this country (this does not include the mmaleague) were particularly well run. Weighins were patchy, sometimes done well at others not so much. At other competitions run by SAPO there were no weighins (the honestly policy was used!)
Nothing ever and I mean ever started close to the time announced. (All competitions experience delays but some more than others!) This is not always the fault of the organisers but usually due to a large cohort arriving to pay on the day and cant understand why preregistration is necessary for efficiency. €30 - 35 euro entry fee are extortionate particularly for single elimination. I know exactly how much the mats, hall and insurance costs were so if you have over 100 competitors paying that somebody somewhere is making some ok money. This was back in the day before Gus came over and started paying referees and judges too.

Personally I have heard great things about the Munster open and Gus always tries to run a tight ship over here too. I would love to see the Irish open up there with the best tournaments in the world and although I can no longer provide a venue would still be willing to assist in running it or setting up. But if you want top quality competition at the moment I feel you still have to go to the UK or further afield. Like everything else in sport, we lag behind.

I personally wont run another tournament,as we seem to have a problem in this country with preregistration. We simply wont commit financially to competing. This makes the efficient running of a tournament almost near impossible. "Can I pay on the day?" is the very last thing as an organiser you want to hear or read. We have the same aversion to standing order payments for club fees as we do the above which makes running a club just as if not more difficult. Here endeth the rant!

Liam_B

Personally I have heard great things about the Munster open and Gus always tries to run a tight ship over here too. But if you want top quality competition other than that I feel you still have to go to the UK or further afield. Like everything else in sport, we lag behind.

We can put some Great comps here. No worries.
Look... you know the story, seems to be a slack in compeittions running at the moment.
My own experience, competeted as purple a bit in uk and brown once or twice in uk & euorpeans at comps like Bristol open , kent open , Seni's, euro's. ..some great comps , some sh*t......we can run great comps here no drama. just a bit of organizing locally with the teams & we're sorted. Last munster open was pre-reg only at it came off without a hitch.

Everyone run it like that (pre-reg)...and hey presto. its the norm!

Also some Reggae beats playing!, its hard to act like a cock , while Bob marley is blasting behind ya.;)

Hanley

Out of the people competing in Munster, does anyone know what percentage came form Dublin clubs?!

r_obric

Hanley wrote: »

Out of the people competing in Munster, does anyone know what percentage came form Dublin clubs?!

Rough guess is about half.

Tim_Murphy

Liam_B wrote: »

Also some Reggae beats playing!, its hard to act like a cock , while Bob marley is blasting behind ya.;)

Ha ha, good thinking.

Barry wrote:

I wasn't at that so I can't comment. What I will say is that tournaments are a bit of a labour of love and are tough to run, so I don't like to criticise too much.

Oh I know that, and I'd agree with you. Internet people will usually be more inclined to b^tch about something if it's bad rather than praise it if it's good but at the same time when people are taking money off competitors then the competitors should be able to expect a minimum level of professionalism.

I don't know, I've probably just been to too many TKD and Kickboxing competitions, I don't really have the heart for the whole waiting around all day and night thing not having a clue when you'll be competing.

Barry.Oglesby

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Ha ha, good thinking.

Oh I know that, and I'd agree with you. Internet people will usually be more inclined to b^tch about something if it's bad rather than praise it if it's good but at the same time when people are taking money off competitors then the competitors should be able to expect a minimum level of professionalism.

I don't know, I've probably just been to too many TKD and Kickboxing competitions, I don't really have the heart for the whole waiting around all day and night thing not having a clue when you'll be competing.

Agreed. I can't stand it anymore as a coach or as a competitor. I would much prefer to see a mat empty for an hour during the day but know when my division was on rather than sitting on my ass waiting and then being called right after I decided to have a sandwich.

With good organisation, you can at the minimum provide an estimate of when divisions will run, at least to within 30 minutes of the start time. Obviously you can't plan for everything though.

Having run quite a few tournaments now, I can relate to almost all of the problems Dave mentioned. (bar the cannabis one)

The big hitters for me if you're organising are:
1) Inaccurate or incomplete entries- ie. missing weight, wrong divisions etc. etc. And when guys turn up they expect the be "re-homed" in another division and look at you like you're behind the counter in McDonalds.
2) Not willing to prepay, or showing up on the day with money in their hand saying how they "had problems with the system". Yes, the problem was you didn't want to use it.
3) Coaches, competitors and sometimes just randomers looking over the organiser's and table staff's shoulders pointing out where their guy should have points, not have points. Essentially back-seat reffing and judging everything.
4) Disrespect for property as per Dave's post. Where you have crowds, you have mess and I'd expect to clean a bit, picking up a few bottles is never a chore but when you're mopping up spillages, food waste, unblocking jacks... it's beyond messy.

I know the organisers have to up their game but there's a lack of respect among competitors for those organising too.

mark.leonard

I have already spoken with Dave about the Cannabis issue at the League, he is perfectly right to put an end to the League on those grounds given that St. Andrews is his livelihood and not worth jeopardising so a mate can run a competition.
Dave and Gillian always gave us far more support for the League than anyone else would have and I am forever grateful.

I would like to point out that we do not have cannabis smoking shelters at every round of the league; to my knowledge this was a small segment of the parents from a single club and is not representative of 99.9% of spectators and competitors at the league. If you have enough people coming to a place, eventually a bad egg or two make it along as well.

Regarding the mess after events, I always fill multiple black bags with Michelle and anyone willing to help me after an event tidying the hall before I go, it is my opinion that the League always tidies up after itself. I agree that competitors can't find a bin, or their supporters, but I take on the effort of clearing up afterwards so the venue doesn't suffer for their lack of consideration.

I also pay referees, when I can afford it I always try and give folks something for helping out, but more recently I have made it policy, particularly for refs as I have got two top class refs in Jim and Paul and I want them to keep doing the job with me! Swapping in and out referees ran us into trouble before and I don't intend on letting that happen again.

I like pre-registration as it lets me plan how many mats, refs etc. I need at a given event. We limit the numbers on League events too, as I make a commitment to get out before 5 pm at each event and can't be sure of meeting that if 50 people turn up on the day and push us way over time. It always drives me bonkers that folks complain that a website I spend an inordinate amount of time maintaining "Didn't work on their computer", but again people are the way they are, and I am sure that sometimes, it doesn't work on their computer

In respect to the Irish Cup/Open/Closed or other events; if the organiser of those events are interested in increasing the capacity, flexibility and reliability of their entry process, on the day and on-line; give me a shout, I am sure I could whip up some software to help them meet their goals, I did it once before after all

SBG Ireland

David Jones wrote: »

€30 - 35 euro entry fee are extortionate particularly for single elimination. I know exactly how much the mats, hall and insurance costs were so if you have over 100 competitors paying that somebody somewhere is making some ok money. This was back in the day before Gus came over and started paying referees and judges too.

i assume thats a dig at me and andy. our goal was to make enough money to send an irish team to the europeans. we cleared 2754.29 which is sitting in an account. me and andy did our best, have run a bunch of irish opens sometimes costing us money never taking anything. on our own time/dime we set up ltd co, set up meetings with olympic council and bunch of other stuff i dont have the time or inclination to go into.

on that note im stepping down from any committee etc. cant be bothered dealing with this sort of thing and in fairness im so busy with running gyms, travelling, pro mma team etc etc i cant commit to giving this my all. im meeting andy tomorrow and we'll be setting a date for a general meeting to be held in next few weeks open to anyone who's been around a while and runs a legit bjj club and wants to get involved with taking over.

i'd like to think i've contributed a little to the foundation of bjj in ireland as a competitor, coach etc. but now its up to the next gen of guys. im only interested in coaching, not sitting around a table.

David Jones

As a "governing body" I think anyone involved in the sport is entitled to ask where the money is going from a competition run by said body. That is the first time anyone has acknowledged what has happened to the monies generated from the competitions such as the Dublin and Irish Opens.

Most of the people involved in this sport from an early stage have given up more time and lost more money than anyone who will come after. I dont think the new generation of students appreciate or in some cases acknowlege that fact.
If we are specifically talking about time given up re Irish and Dublin Opens, waiting on a Friday after work till sometimes 8pm for two transits to arrive and unload them into a store, to set them all out later that night when hall was free or next day. To clean up after the events including, mopping floors, picking up cigarette butts, unblocking toilets etc so that the school could function the following Monday.That and to provide the hall at a vastly discounted rate from the €90 per hour groups normally get charged.(that money is rent and is lodged with the school not me) I dont think you were the only one investing in the sport for no return.

As a "governing body" surely setting up courses like a code of ethics course, a first aid course, moving towards getting a recognised Level 1 course in the sport is what should be happening. Maybe that has been but it sure as hell hasnt been publicized.

Next Generation was unwillingly involved in a grade / sandbag issue in the Summer. I would have thought that an independant "governing body" in the sport would have released a statement on the issue and was disappointed to see that people I have been involved with in the sport since practically day one (and who are founder members of the "governing body") would say nothing publicly about what happened. Although your students in particular seem to see nothing wrong with what happened and were very vocal about it publicly. I think if the shoe were on the other foot it might be a different story. I really cant say I am suprised there was no statement, the committee is made up of all SBG and BJJ Revolution associates oh and one Judo guy.

Through work I have to deal with at least 10 governing sports bodies. I can ask to see their accounts, I can question what exactly they do. If there is an incident on a pitch they may make a statement and/or ask for an inquiry. They run courses and they involve more than 2 clubs in their committees. Perhaps the IBJJA does need an injection of young enthusiasts. It certainly needs to up its game as a governing body of a young growing sport.


I like to think I also have contributed a little to the foundation of BJJ in Ireland as a competitor, coach etc The last two years have been the worst in terms of personal injuries and being let down by people I have invested a lot of time and money in and by individuals in other clubs who I thought I could count on for support publicly. Next Generation was one of the original clubs in this country and what I had hoped would be some sort of legacy to the Irish BJJ scene. Its passing has barely raised an eyebrow from people I thought of as friends. It has raised plenty of brown nosing little f**ckers for its replacement on here though.

Sunshine friends abound in Irish BJJ.

You can keep it.

EnjoyChoke

I really think we should concentrate and build on the positives in Irish BJJ. For the record I think the vast majority of competitors in this country are prepared to pre-register (Munster and Irish cup prove this) will turn up on time, make weight and are respectfull. There are exceptions, but such is life.
Yes some of the earlier comps that were run here were rough, but believe me, up to a couple of years ago the UK was no great shakes either.
I've competed in 40+ comps in 4 different countries and the Muster open is as good as any out there, the BJJ cup isn't too far behind either. All that the Irish open needed last year was a timetable and one more matted area. Easily fixed.
If we're honest we don't have a national governing body. The IBJJA was a well meaning stab at creating one but hasn't really got off the ground.
If we're even more honest, we don't need one. Every country bar Brazil, the US and Portugal are able to operate perfectly well without one.
What we do need is 4-5 well run, big comps a year. Maybe a couple more ref courses as well. This can all be done on a club basis (as far as I'm concerened if someone puts on a well run comp and makes some money out of it, fair play to them)

Barry.Oglesby

I think first of all, you have to address what went wrong so far with the IBJJA, and I'll be the one to say what other people outside of the committee were seeing, though I've spoken to Andy about it and I've had a lot of it explained to me- why certain actions were taken etc.

Firstly, a committee was formed out of 2 Irish clubs, and representatives appointed. At no stage was there any communication to anyone, though they probably felt there was no obligation to communicate. Essentially, no matter who it was set up by, once you go down the road of starting to organise an NGB you are doing it in the name of every practitioner in Ireland whether you like it or not. The optimum method of doing this would to have convened a meeting and then voted in a board. The next best thing would have been to have released statements, emails, letters and rang as many people as possible informing them of the formation. This didn't happen, and since the bulk of the representatives were from only 2 clubs, a lot of people got the hump. I think if you look at this from the outside in, you can see why. Andy and John are very respected in the BJJ community and rightly so, but they run their own clubs and businesses. It looked bad even though I'm satisfied no dishonesty was intended. Again, there was no communication to say why the board's make up was as it was. An email would have sufficed.

Secondly, if the Irish Open was to fund an Irish team's trip to the Euros. Why not let everyone know in advance? As it was, everyone either baulked completely and didn't enter the Open due to the €35 price tag, or they entered and grumbled, especially when other tournaments were running at €20/€25. Again, just an email would have done the trick.

There's a number of things that an organisation could achieve, things that maybe those not coaching don't see:

1) negotiate cheaper insurance costs
2) Deliver courses in first aid/coaching/ethics to improve the standard of coaching and service to the practitioner
3) Purchase equipment for use in tournaments such as mats, timers, safety equipment to make running tournaments cheaper
4) regularly train new officials and upgrade the qualifications of existing officials to ensure a good standard of refereeing and judging
5) Help to promote the sport generally in schools. Most people don't know this but BJJ is a very OLD sport. Most clubs have the complete opposite demographic of what a healthy sport should have ie. approx 70% junior, 30% senior. We should be aiming for higher participation.

I'd be interested in sitting down with people to discuss how this could be done, but not if there's not a will generally to see it happen. Unfortunately I think there's an us and them approach in existence, though not from everyone it has to be said.

Let's see how this meeting goes.

EnjoyChoke

All we need:

1. Good BJJ coaches and Gyms.
2. An Irish competiton scene consisting of 4-5 big comps (split GI/NOGI) that are well organised, in every sense, and that attract international competitors.

That's it. The rest is fluff.

Killme00

Fair play to all for the open, honest and frank discussions. Hopefully this can continue for the better of BJJ in Ireland.

Barrys idea about the IBJJA buying competition mats to reduce future costs is an excellent idea.

For me personally, as an active competitor (however bad :P), i'd like to see:
-More regular competitions throughout the year
-More training opportunites for referees (paid for or subsidised by the IBJJA)
-An open line of communication betwen the clubs, competitors and the IBJJA

I have my fingers crossed that we'll still get the Irish open and Dublin Open before year end.

Barry.Oglesby

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

All we need:

1. Good BJJ coaches and Gyms.
2. An Irish competiton scene consisting of 4-5 big comps (split GI/NOGI) that are well organised, in every sense, and that attract international competitors.

That's it. The rest is fluff.

That's as may be for the competitor in the short term. It's all fluff til it's needed

To take point 2) in context of my post, a lot of international guys would want to know they're getting a fair shake from officials and having them qualified and regularly updated with rules updates etc. takes money and time. Liam did some sterling work on that last year and I would definitely say that improved the standard of officiating. How much damage would an international reputation suffer if there was a rule change that Irish refs weren't up to speed on? Competitions are expensive to run with no guarantee you're going to break even. Reducing the cost of running them by providing cheap mats would increase the frequency of competition.

EnjoyChoke

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

How much damage would an international reputation suffer if there was a rule change that Irish refs weren't up to speed on?

Given some of the shocking ref calls I've seen abroad, very little

I'm broadly in agreement with you, but I think organisation has and will continue to be carried out on a club by club basis.
Once the two points above are fully covered off, the sport/Art will continue to grow. We can function perfectly well without a NGB.

SBG Ireland

I guess i thought you'd just say it to my face after +10yrs knowing each other rather than insinuating me and Andy were ripping people off on some public forum.

As for everybody's 'suggestions' you'll have to forgive me if i can't be bothered reading when you've been involved in the sport a wet week or if i consider you a beginner that's never achieved anything on the mat or had the ability to coach anybody to achieve anything of significance

But hey i look forward to seeing the wonderful job u guys will no doubt do when you take over, just remember who's shoulders you are standing on

Jk
blackbelt
Sbg head coach
Bjj open and cup team champions
owner of pretty much every significant pro mma title in Ireland
just getting started

Peace out

David Jones

I guess i thought you'd just say it to my face after +10yrs knowing each other rather than insinuating me and Andy were ripping people off on some public forum.

And I thought I would get some public support this Summer from you after 10 years of knowing each other. What happened in the Summer was wrong anyway you want to rewrite it. It embarrassed me, it embarrassed Chris Brennan ( who was very good to you, Dave Roche and I on our first trip to the states and has always had a lot of time for you) and it embarrassed Next Generation as a whole not just here in Ireland but on a wider scale. It called into question every belt that has ever been given out by Chris in this country.

I thought you would stand up if not on your own but as part of the IBJJA and say "you know what guys thats just wrong".Even a phone call or email to say I have your support. But you backed two individuals with your silence that have basically pirated over the last two years a club that took me 10 years to build up. I now have to watch as your students and my former students help promote highlight videos and ass kiss each other. We go back a lot longer and that should have meant something. If it had been the other way around you would have had my support.

Just for the record I said somebody is making good money, I never insinuated it was a rip off, or the money was being used for personal profit. I just thought if its a governing body run competition, at that price people are entitled to know.

Egos used to be checked at the door, now it seems they are worn on the sleeve.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Barry.Oglesby

Ignoring the other stuff...

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Given some of the shocking ref calls I've seen abroad, very little

I'm broadly in agreement with you, but I think organisation has and will continue to be carried out on a club by club basis.
Once the two points above are fully covered off, the sport/Art will continue to grow. We can function perfectly well without a NGB.

Possibly, I just think it would be helpful to have a structure in place to run first aid/refs courses etc. etc. I'm all for small government though. I've done all that kind of stuff off my own bat previously because I needed to professionally or I got it through other organisations I've worked with.

Based on this topic though it's probably a waste of energy.

TEAM RYANO

guys lets keep this chat about bjj in ireland ,if guys have a problem with each other keep it to your self the bjj community is small here lets try and work toghter not against each other.
i think 2012 will be a good year for bjj in ireland.
the ibjja only ever ran 1 comp that was last year the other 5 were run by me and john,the dublin open was run by my self and club .
so the ibjja is only new our first offical comp was last year .
i got 20 people who said they would help oiut at the comp 6 showed up 1 from cork 1 from belfast and 4 from dublin.
onwards and upwards for bjj in ireland
peace out ...
andy ryan

Sid_Justice

Obviously as someone very wet around the ears my opinion counts for **** all but the problem with running these organisations is that there seems to be some assumption that the guy that's the best at the sport should be administrating the sport.

I just consider this a little illogical, it would be a bit like Anderson Silva saying he wants Dana White's job or Marcelo Garcia saying he wants who ever runs IBJJF's job.

For these things to work you need athletes to spend their time being athletes (not coaches, administrators, fund raisers etc.) you need coaches being coaches (not administrators, not fund raisers) and you need the admin staff doing the rest. Obviously this all requires a bit of honesty, integrity and accountability amongst everyone. Ignoring some little falling outs between groups I don't think we have any problem, at all levels, for these 3 qualities.

It reminds me of the MMA situation when nobody could sit down and organise a meeting because the coaches of the biggest teams didn't seem to agree on rule changes because they weren't the one who thought of it first. I don't mean this as a slight on their coaching skills / merits etc. but you need people with experience running organisations who aren't too egotistical to head up these things (just as a casual example Mark Leonard or Barry Oglesby) rather than Ireland's versions of Greg Jackson or Fedor.

Barry.Oglesby

Pick Mark I'm too egotistical.

mark.leonard

While I appreciate the compliment, a lack of ego is not something I suffer from too seriously!
In any Association/Organisation you need to have a mix of skills, ideally you want a couple of high ranking experienced folks included, they can represent the "Business" of BJJ and steer the committee toward decisions that enable the betterment of BJJ in Ireland. They have the context that a pure administrator would not.
You also need folks with logistical and organisational skills who will handle the execution and day to day maintenance, when those two skill sets coincide its awesome, but its easier to make the team up by combining them from different people.

Tim_Murphy

You know a thread is gone a bit nuts when Sid is the one talking sense. :pac:

r_obric

I dont get why people feel it needs a "body" like the ibjja to run a competition, cant clubs put them on with help from the community and other clubs, it works fine for the munster open, and a business man from the UK has made it work without being offically tied to any club here