Spray Collars

piperh

Can i get some honest opinions please and don't worry i'm really hard to offend

I had a disagreement with my friend tonight as we were walking our dogs like me she has 2, 1 of each both neutured. Ours are all friends but she sometimes has real problems with the 3yr old male and he lunges barking at other dogs. Now this doesn't seem to be all dogs or any particular kind but is definately worse if the other dog is barking, she has tried a behaviourist who told her to make herself the boss and takes the dog to regular social classes and with some dogs he's fine and others he just goes for. This seems to be making little difference after 5mnths.

Tonight she said she'd come up with a plan to combat this, she's going to get a spray collar and spray the dog if it lunges or barks but reward it if he walks past another dog. Now i disagree with spray collars and couldn't see how this would work and ended up asking how she'd like something sprayed in her face everytime she did something someone didn't like but she's adamant that this punishment and reward system will work.

What do others think?

RubyGirl

Maybe she should try if she think's an approaching dog is going to "rise" her dog, she should put the dog into the "sit" position, go down to his level and talk softly "no bark" or some other command to him until the other dog passes. When the other dog passes she should them reward her dog for it's good behavour by giving it a treat.

I think he can pick up something in the barking dog & is just protecting his owner.

DBB

Hey Piperh,
My first observation is that your fruiend was given flawed advice in the first place by the person she paid to address the dog's behaviour issues: making yourself the "boss" does not stop a dog being aggressive. When owners are told to take this approach, it tends to make the owner feel justified in using more physical or unpleasant training techniques... after all, they're the boss, right?;)
The truth of the matter is that your friend's snarky dog is probably acting as he does out of fear... which is an entirely different emotion to what the unqualified "behaviourists" will tell an owner, that the dog is trying to overthrow the world and become pack leader.
So, because the vast majority of aggression is fear-based, using a method to stop the behaviour which increases the fear is a very risky thing to do. The problem with using punishment is that it has to be 100% cons6sitently applied, and it has to be severe enough to really convince the dog not to do it again.
So, when a fearful dog snarks off, and he gets sprayed in the face, one of two things will happen.
1) the dog will be so affected by the spray that he will not snark off again in the near future. His aggressive behaviour becomes inhibited by the horror of the spray.
The problem is, and it is a really bad problem, is that although the behaviour is inhibited, the underlying fearful emotion is not. If anything, the fear is greater. And this has to manifest itself somewhere. Often, the dog will inhibit his aggression in many cases, but the wrong dog comes along on the wrong day, and the snarky dog may explode in a big explosion of fear and pent-up frustration.
2) the dog will not be at all inhibited by the spray, but in fact will associate getting sprayed in the face with the appearance of another dog, thus giving the snarky dog an even bigger reason to be aggressive to other dogs.
Dogs don't view the punishment from the point of view "Oops, if I hadn't been aggressive, that spray wouldn't have happened". Rather it is a more direct "When I see a dog approach me, I feel apprehensive. But now when I see another dog he causes a nasty spray into my face.... I hate dogs approaching me even more now"

Your friend has some positives to work on, in that her dog can be good around some dogs. This good behaviour can be reinforced (clickers are really good for this sort of work). Her dog can first learn around non-annoying dogs how his owner wants him to behave, as she can teach him to focus on her around these dogs (teaching him to sit, look at her etc). Then, when both owner and dog really have the hang of a sequence of events to follow when in the presence of another dog, they can graduate onto other dogs more likely to provoke a reaction.
During this time, she will need to structure his environment so that she minimises the chances of him meeting other, unknown dogs, whilst he learns the ropes with steady dogs who don't provoke him. If in doubt at all about an approaching dog, she should turn around and leave, duck into a gateway, or try to move around the other dog. The fewer chances he has to be aggressive, with concurrent maximising of chances to learn how to behave around steady dogs, the quicker this will happen for her. For this reason, bringing an aggressive adult dog to "socialisation" classes can be really counter-productive, and I would question the advice given to her to bring this dog to such classes. He's not ready for them right now. Think about it... the other dogs in these classes tend also to be problem dogs, so it's a very difficult environment to carry out any meaningful rehab work if a calm and controlled environment is required.
She might also consider getting in a behaviourist who will base their advice on evidence-based techniques:rolleyes::)

piperh

DBB wrote: »

Hey Piperh,
My first observation is that your fruiend was given flawed advice in the first place by the person she paid to address the dog's behaviour issues: making yourself the "boss" does not stop a dog being aggressive. When owners are told to take this approach, it tends to make the owner feel justified in using more physical or unpleasant training techniques... after all, they're the boss, right?;)

For this reason, bringing an aggressive adult dog to "socialisation" classes can be really counter-productive, and I would question the advice given to her to bring this dog to such classes. He's not ready for them right now. Think about it... the other dogs in these classes tend also to be problem dogs, so it's a very difficult environment to carry out any meaningful rehab work if a calm and controlled environment is required.
She might also consider getting in a behaviourist who will base their advice on evidence-based techniques:rolleyes::)

DBB i couldn't agree more with your opening paragragh, sometimes i want to shake her when she says but thats what i've been told to do, he has to understand i'm the boss and he has to do what i want. He's a lovely dog and although boisterous around mine (they're puppies and love it) he's fine with them so i feel sure with time she can get him over his wobbles without resorting to the collar.

I never thought of the classes like that and have to admit to encouraging her to keep taking him as i thought the more he got used to them the better he'd be but i will put this point across. I think she'll be relieved to take him out of that situation as he always seems to find at least one dog there to have a go at and its often different dogs.

Discodog

I have a similar problem. My 18 month old Collie/Lab gets on really well with other dogs & is well socialised. But twice a day I have to pass a neighbour who has a Collie & a Westie. Both of them, but especially the Collie lunges out of their drive teeth bared & my guy reacts to defend himself.

The situation is made worse because, until I got this chap, I only had the two females which my neighbour's Collie considers to be part of his harem When the Collie is away from his drive he is fine, so much so that I have even clipped a lead on him & bought him for a walk with my youngster without any grief.

I was worried that my guy would become defensive around other males but so far so good. It's just so annoying when you are doing well & there is a spanner in the works & I don't think that the Collie is going to stop.

summer_ina_bowl

Too many times when someone says they were told to "be the boss" what they were actually advised was to earn the dogs respect through feeding/treat giving (e.g. asking your dog to sit before you put down it's dinner) so that the dog learns that the owner is worth listening to - can we remember that before attacking the poor un-named behaviorist involved without really knowing how she approached this situation! lol!

One of my dogs was badly bitten during an attack from a dog that lunged out of it's owners grip - the owner kept saying how sorry he was, and that his dog was usually fine and very obedient, but just didn't like 'some dogs'. My dog that was attacked was a female collie, who had her back turned to the other dog (a male lab) at the time as she was walking backwards while watching the tennis ball in my hand, and so was hardly perceived as a threat by him. Basically the lab was not lunging from nerves or fear. The labs owner had to get pretty rough with his dog to get him to let go of my dogs rump

To be honest, a mild aversion like citronella or an odourless spray isn't going to harm the dog. If used correctly by an informed owner, it's not gonna give him any lasting physical or emotional scars. It may however be enough for the owner to break the dogs concentration on its target and allow them to get their dog under control. In time, with consistent routine, all but the dimmest dogs would realise that lunging does not please their owner and that they will be redirected if they try.
For the same purpose as a spray collar, I recommended a bottle of water to the owner of the dog who caused mine to require 6 stitches. Months later I met him in the same area, his dog did not lunge for mine. He told me that within a month his dog had stopped lunging and when he was passing another dog, the owner could keep him in a sustained sit.

I don't advocate violence or harmful training techniques for dogs. But I do believe that a few weeks of being splashed with water is better that a life tiem being roughed up while being removed from another dogs bum

DBB

Too many times when someone says they were told to "be the boss" what they were actually advised was to earn the dogs respect through feeding/treat giving (e.g. asking your dog to sit before you put down it's dinner) so that the dog learns that the owner is worth listening to - can we remember that before attacking the poor un-named behaviorist involved without really knowing how she approached this situation! lol!

In fairness, I have yet to meet a qualified behaviourist who would advise asking a dog to sit before feeding it, whilst also sayiing you do this "to be the boss".

In time, with consistent routine, all but the dimmest dogs would realise that lunging does not please their owner and that they will be redirected if they try.

With all due respect, when a dog is bricking itself around another dog, I don't think it's first priority at that moment is whether it is "pleasing it's owner". It's self-preservation at this level, it has very little to do with what the dog thinks the owner is thinking.
Whilst spraying the dog in the face/nose is one way of doing this, there are other ways of doing it without ever using any aversive methods. Using aversive methods is fraught with potential problems. Using positive reinforcement isn't. So whilst spraying the dog might work, I'd have to ask, at what cost? Many dogs would lose all reason at being sprayed with citronella.

For the same purpose as a spray collar, I recommended a bottle of water to the owner of the dog who caused mine to require 6 stitches. Months later I met him in the same area, his dog did not lunge for mine. He told me that within a month his dog had stopped lunging and when he was passing another dog, the owner could keep him in a sustained sit.

Again, this could have been achieved without spraying the dog with water. Using aversive methods can stop unwanted behaviours: but it does not supress the underlying emotion. so whilst this dog that's getting sprayed in the face, on your advice, is notlunging at your dog any more, I wonder in which aspect of his life is his frustration boiling over? That's the beauty of using positive reinforcement instead: it addresses the source of the problem, not the symptom.

I don't advocate violence or harmful training techniques for dogs. But I do believe that a few weeks of being splashed with water is better that a life tiem being roughed up while being removed from another dogs bum

I wonder if you asked a dog who was being squirted in his exquisitely sensitive nose with citronella spray whether his considers this harmful? Let me assure you, that a few weeks of being positively reinforced for appropriate behaviour around other dogs would also have prevented being "roughed up while being removed from another dogs bum". It just means having to think about the problem from the dog's point of view, rather than from the human's, who often have this inherent drive to punish, punish, punish. Dogs don't think that way at all. Pity they have to live with the consequences of humans who do.

summer_ina_bowl

DBB wrote: »

In fairness, I have yet to meet a qualified behaviourist who would advise asking a dog to sit before feeding it, whilst also sayiing you do this "to be the boss".

What I was saying was that being told to ask your dog to sit for dinner is often misinterpreted as being told to be the boss. People watch Ceaser Milan and he often uses this as a method of reinforcing dominance, where as I know of many trainers/behaviorists/training enthusiasts who recommend this to reinforce good manners and as an opportunity to practice 'sit' with a strong reward behind it.

I'm not suggesting that a fearful dog be trained with aversion, that's ridiculous, but there is a big difference between a dog who it 'bricking it' and an aggressive or dominant dog who has boundary issues.
I'm very much in favour of positive training, all of my dogs have been clicker trained. But realistically, some people have poor timing and in situations like this, when a dogs drive is strong, positive methods may not be enough to keep control. How many dogs are euthanised every year for behavioural problems - these problems were probably created by the owner and aren't the actions of a necessarily 'naughty' dog, but to most people the cause of the behaviour is irrelevant, if they can't stop it quickly, the dog is put down or ends up in a shelter.

What I'm saying is that if someone has tried positive training, behaviourists and socialisation classes to stop aggressive lunging to no avail (whether failure is down to the dog or owner) and feels that they have no options left, then I would rather see them research water aversion and spend a few weeks squirting liquid on it's nose (and then live out a happy life with their pet) than arrive into a vets because their dog has attacked another dog/person and is now about to be killed.

I agree that using aversive methods can stop unwanted behaviours without suppressing the underlying emotion, that's why I'd recommend the water is used to break the dogs focus so that enough control can be regained so that it can be put into a sit. Eventually the dog will associate oncoming dogs with going into a sit and receiving a treat - if you were repeatedly trying to get an in-drive dog into a sit and it was ignoring you, you're only going to weaken the sit command beyond repair.

Saying that dogs don't punish is unfounded - a pup bites it's mother roughly and it'll get reprimanded with a snap and a growl. If you're walking a dog who's mentality is that he's a tough cookie and that no other dog should dare cross his path, I think it is fair to reprimand aggressive lunging with a shout or a squirt of water if the dog is ignoring you, your food lure and your request for a sit - especially when his behaviour is endangering others.