Certification by ECSSA

2011

This topic has come up a number of times on this forum.
This thread may answer a few questions for others that are not members of ECSSA or RECI but wish to get their work certified.


The Project

This is a complete rewire of a very old stone cottage that has been completely gutted. The new owner wants to completely "modernize". I will push to use MK accessories, but may have to concede to something cheaper.

As I am not a registered electrical contractor I am not permitted to certify my own work so I gave the nice people in the ECSSA a buzz.
They explained that once the work is complete I need to download and fill out this form. An inspector will call out within 10 days of receiving payment (of €300) to certify.
Return visits from the inspector (if required) will cost €125 each.

If everything goes to plan this installation should be certified early next year.
I will update this thread then explaining how easy or difficult it was to achieve.

For the record the "customer" is a close family friend that is owed a few favors so I will not be paid for any of this work.

evosteo

id be interested to see how they deal with individual people,

just wondering is the call back charge due to a test failing and having to be retested?

2011

evosteo wrote: »

id be interested to see how they deal with individual people,

I will keep you "posted"

just wondering is the call back charge due to a test failing and having to be retested?

Yes, it only applies if the inspector is unhappy with some aspect of the installation. Once the inspector is satisfied that the relevant change(s) have been made the certificate will be issued.

The owner of the property will then have the added benefit of having a certificate issued by an independent inspector.
In my view a certificate issued by a third party is a more meaningful document.

slavetothegrind

i would think this is the way it should be done all the time.

no self certifying at all.

Same for the rgii gas system.

the customer faces the 300 euro charge no matter who does the work and the inspectorate keeps them honest re: regulations.

i know, i know, who keeps the inspectors honest......:o

i'm not disrespecting any good contractor at all but rather saying that it would be a lot less hassle for contractors not having to deal with the paperwork and cert body's and keep out chancers as the work has to be of the appropriate standard.

2011

slavetothegrind wrote: »

i would think this is the way it should be done all the time.

no self certifying at all.

Same for the rgii gas system.

the customer faces the 300 euro charge no matter who does the work and the inspectorate keeps them honest re: regulations.

i know, i know, who keeps the inspectors honest......:o

i'm not disrespecting any good contractor at all but rather saying that it would be a lot less hassle for contractors not having to deal with the paperwork and cert body's and keep out chancers as the work has to be of the appropriate standard.

+1
I could not agree more

M cebee

i'm a reci member 15yrs or more

but i reckon self-certification should be scrapped alright


there'll still be plenty of cowboy work after installations are energized- mind you

Bruthal

M cebee wrote: »

i'm a reci member 15yrs or more

but i reckon self-certification should be scrapped alright


there'll still be plenty of cowboy work after installations are energized- mind you

Cowboy work can pass tests anyway, an installation could pass with connectors buried in walls, but fail because the DB is too high.

2011

robbie7730 wrote: »

Cowboy work can pass tests anyway

Correct, some aspects of cowboy workmanship can't be detected by the required tests.

Thankfully many different breaches of the regulations can be found when an installation is properly inspected.
The electrician responsible for a given installation would then be forced to address any breaches of regulations that the inspector has found to get the completion certificate or final payment may be withheld, simple as.
This will be of immense benefit to the conscientious electrical contractors out there.

In effect this is the way that work is carried out in the industrial sector; the electrical contractor will inspect and test his own work, but to get paid this work will have to pass the scrutiny of the electrical engineer/electrical designer (who works on behalf of the client) to get a system signed off.

Even a cursory glance from the experienced eye of an inspector can tell a lot about the standard of workmanship. I have been on many walk downs myself on industrial installations. From my experience most snags are spotted from a thorough visual inspection.

I know that when my volunteer "assistant" and I are having this installation tested that we can expect no mercy from the inspector. The owner of the house will also know for a fact that the installation has been tested. I have seen many completion certificates that clearly indicate that the testing has not been done (because the figures are all over the place).

an installation could pass with connectors buried in walls

It could as there is no mandatory test carried out that is designed to find this.
Ultimately the person responsible for a shortcut such as this will be held accountable if this were to cause problems in the future regardless of who tested the installation.

but fail because the DB is too high.

Yes, blatant disregard for the regulations will result in an installation failing even if it is a regulation that you do not agree with (naturally self certification assists unscrupulous electrical contractors in ignoring any regulation that does not suit their agenda)
Personally I do not agree with this regulation, but to get the required certificate I will have to comply.

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Correct, some aspects of cowboy workmanship can't be detected by the required tests.

Yes most coyboy operators will show more than a hint of their work standards in the visible aspects of the installation anyway.

I know that when my volunteer "assistant" and I are having this installation tested that we can expect no mercy from the inspector. The owner of the house will also know for a fact that the installation has been tested. I have seen many completion certificates that clearly indicate that the testing has not been done (because the figures are all over the place).

I remember having to test about 50 swa cables of about 95 square, we had just terminated to sub boards, myself and apprentice, and we skipped none of them, even though we assumed they would be a formality. The interesting thing was, one panel had been swamped with water from a broken temporary pipe after we terminated cable, and pipe had since been fixed on a site. It showed in meggar test. MCCB had to be replaced. Would have been interesting to just assume they were ok, maybe only test a few at random, and let it be switched on.

Yes, blatant disregard for the regulations will result in an installation failing even if it is a regulation that you do not agree with
Personally I do not agree with this regulation, but to get the required certificate I will have to comply.

Yea my point was that someone can pass with the connectors, but fail with something that really has no electrical problem.

Was changing socket for neighbour a few weeks ago, earth core not connected in t&e, but had seperate earth between 2 sockets. Reason, nail into cable in wall during original build 8 years ago connecting L to E, so the earth conductor was live, dont bother fixing, just bypass. This more likely caused by the "wire a house in a day" setup at all costs. So there was a live nail head in the wall since the house was built.

The most annoying work is fixing cowboy stuff.

Good idea this thread 2011.

M cebee

yes

the electrical test results are only part of the picture


for example the inspector can take a look in the attic and if the wires are strewn around-that is a breach of the wiring rules


also he can remove socket covers and if the boxes are not flush with the finished wall -they don't comply

i'm sure there's plenty more-they're just two quick examples


anyhow self-certification should deffo be scrapped!

it's a joke especially with the non-registered guys being supplied with certs from the registered guys

slavetothegrind

M cebee wrote: »

i'm a reci member 15yrs or more

but i reckon self-certification should be scrapped alright


there'll still be plenty of cowboy work after installations are energized- mind you

sadly this is very true.

but how do we legislate for that?

especially in light industry where add-ons are regular enough, would get very expensive if recertified every time

there has got to be the onus on the customer to ensure the person they hire for work is competant and insured to do that work.
i carry my policy with me and have been asked to see it NEVER!
asked did i have it sure! But not often.

Customers know full well what they are getting when they get three prices and one is 40% lower than the other two, and requires cash payment.

bertie1

2011 wrote: »

This topic has come up a number of times on this forum.
This thread may answer a few questions for others that are not members of ECSSA or RECI but wish to get their work certified.


The Project

This is a complete rewire of a very old stone cottage that has been completely gutted. The new owner wants to completely "modernize". I will push to use MK accessories, but may have to concede to something cheaper.

As I am not a registered electrical contractor I am not permitted to certify my own work so I gave the nice people in the ECSSA a buzz.
They explained that once the work is complete I need to download and fill out this form. An inspector will call out within 10 days of receiving payment (of €300) to certify.
Return visits from the inspector (if required) will cost €125 each.

If everything goes to plan this installation should be certified early next year.
I will update this thread then explaining how easy or difficult it was to achieve.

For the record the "customer" is a close family friend that is owed a few favors so I will not be paid for any of this work.

So you are going to wire a house for a "close family friend" with no insurance to cover yourself or the home owner. What happens if somebody gets hurt as a result of your work or there is a fire and the investigators decide the electrical work was to blame. You could easily end up in court . You are taking an awful chance it dosn't take mush for things to go wrong or for another tradesperson on site to something that could compromise your installation unknown to you.

Bruthal

bertie1 wrote: »

So you are going to wire a house for a "close family friend" with no insurance to cover yourself or the home owner. What happens if somebody gets hurt as a result of your work or there is a fire and the investigators decide the electrical work was to blame. You could easily end up in court . You are taking an awful chance it dosn't take mush for things to go wrong or for another tradesperson on site to something that could compromise your installation unknown to you.

It is covered when the ECSSA test and certify it, is it not?

M cebee

the insurance cover would be a separate issue

2011

So you are going to wire a house for a "close family friend" with no insurance to cover yourself or the home owner. What happens if somebody gets hurt as a result of your work or there is a fire and the investigators decide the electrical work was to blame. You could easily end up in court . You are taking an awful chance it dosn't take mush for things to go wrong or for another tradesperson on site to something that could compromise your installation unknown to you.

Thanks for your concern, but as it happens I have insurance cover.

eoghan.geraghty

2011 wrote: »

Thanks for your concern, but as it happens I have insurance cover.

If you have your insurance cover in place, why don't you just pay to join ECSSA rather than pay for a one off cert?

2011

eoghan.geraghty wrote: »

If you have your insurance cover in place, why don't you just pay to join ECSSA rather than pay for a one off cert?

Mainly because I am not an electrical contractor, nor do I want to be.
There are other requirements to joining the ECSSA such as, I would need to own suitable test equipment. For this one off I will borrow test equipment from work.

Besides after this job the favor factory is closed!

The home owner will pay all certification costs.

I have my own insurance in place as it is a requirement for my work.

jdesbt

so how did it all go

2011

jdesbt wrote: »

so how did it all go

Will let you know when I'm done!
I have not even started yet.

2011

The house is nearly finished, I will be applying to the ECSSA soon to inspect.
Fingers crossed it all goes well :D

I was offered some electrical work recently as this is not something I do anymore I offered it to a local electrical contractor that I know quite well.
When I asked him if he was with RECI or the ECSSA he told me that he was not registered at all.
He pays either the ECSSA or RECI to certify every job for him. As all of his work is either a rewire or a new installation an extra €250 does not make any difference.
When submitting his price to the customer he informs the customer that his work will be independently assessed by an inspector (which of course is true).
Apparently it works, because he is out the door with work. He also told me that he knows several other contractors that operate like this.

It would seem that electrical contractors and tradesmen in general have lost credibility to a large portion of the general public due to the behaviour of some during the boom.
This seemed to me like an interesting way of giving skeptical customers confidence.

M cebee

i jacked in reci last year for the opposite reason!

2011

M cebee wrote: »

i jacked in reci last year for the opposite reason!

What do you mean?

M cebee

would be daft imo to operate as a non-registered contractor if you're doing all new-connections and re-wires

isn't it 400euro testing?

and you have the inconvenience of reci/ecssa scrutinizing your work

your competition can advertise as registered/safe electric contractors
-theres no kudos in my experience being non-registered

just my take on it after 16years reci membership:)

2011

M cebee wrote: »

isn't it 400euro testing?

€200 to 250 AFAIK

and you have the inconvenience of reci/ecssa scrutinizing your work

Not a problem if it is done properly.

your competition can advertise as registered/safe electric contractors
-theres no kudos in my experience being non-registered

In reality there are plenty of people that were dissapointed with the standard of work from "registered/safe electric contractors" that certified their own work without "the inconvenience of reci/ecssa scrutinizing" it.

I know that there are some fantastic registered electrical contractors out there, that is why I have often reccoemended on this forum that people use them. There are also plenty of people with 30 year mortgages stuck with substandard wiring installed by contrators that could not care less about workmanship or regualtions. Clearly self certification by registered electrical contarctors did not work for customers of these contractors.

Part of my remit is to walk down and sign off work carried out by registered E & I contractors. Based on my experience I would hate to think what it would be like if nothing was checked by a third party.

When you say that you "jacked in" RECI do you mean you left them?

M cebee

yes deregistered

regardless of competence, its not advantageous to operate non-registered in your example

M cebee

can someone confirm the cost then?
-thought it was 400 last time i looked

2011

M cebee wrote: »

yes deregistered

Why?

regardless of competence, its not advantageous to operate non-registered in your example

Any electrical contractor that is "out the door with work" and making money in this difficult environment must be doing something right.

Prices for the ECSSA to inspect & certify are avaliable here:
http://www.ecssa.ie/includes/tiny_mce/plugins/filemanager/files/Application_for_Certification.pdf

deandean

@2011 I had a house re-wired a few years ago effectively by a very good apprentice so i had to contact RECI and get one of their inspectors out.

I can only say that the guy was extremely thorough, prob much more than a self-cert installation.

I had to put a few small things right, so I had to pay for one re-visit. I was happy with the service though.

2011

deandean wrote: »

@2011 I had a house re-wired a few years ago effectively by a very good apprentice so i had to contact RECI and get one of their inspectors out.

I can only say that the guy was extremely thorough, prob much more than a self-cert installation.

I had to put a few small things right, so I had to pay for one re-visit. I was happy with the service though.

Pleased to hear it.

I wired a milking parlour and farm yard when I was an apprentice (many moons ago). RECI inspected my work and issued me with a completion certificate.

However I must admit they insisted on a revisit as the inspector was not satisfied with meter cabinet that I had installed. I too was very happy with the service. Everything was meticiously checked.

M cebee

an apprentice is learning-usually at the customers expense when working solo ime
Test results and inspection only part of the picture

Bruthal

Depends on the apprentice really, just as is does with qualified lads.