Son Of General Retro Discussion

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

I am. Currently it's full of girls who are just preparing for a slumber party.

Luckily I set up a load of CCTV cameras earlier.

Surely thats because of the gold wallpaper?

a5y

EnterNow wrote: »

Whoa whoa, there's no need to be dragging the Mega CD into this. It gave us such titles as:




Ok not much else but still.

Snatcher: impressive art direction, attention to detail, aesthetics, gripping and memorable storyline, immersion and gameplay (ignoring the flow breaking shooting bits which you either love, hate or would rather forget).

But considering the hardware does Snatcher have impressive graphics? Is it tech demo awesome?



This is impressive graphics without the added confusion of anything else positive that Snatcher has going for it. Its a good tech demo... with both disasterous feature creep and remarketing as a game.

I believe the phrase is "OK not much else but still." :P

(Cough Sonic CD, Silpheed, Final Fight CD, Road Avenger, Night Trap, Flink...)

Myrddin

a5y wrote: »

But considering the hardware does Snatcher have impressive graphics? Is it tech demo awesome?

Since when did that ever equate to a brilliant game though?

Snatcher CD is comic-noire based consolised point & click adventure. It's graphics are good in the comic sense, it's music is excellent, & the storytelling & immersion are without a doubt the best the console has to offer.

It doesn't need brilliant tech demo graphics, it's a brilliant game, what else matters

Of course Sonic CD, Robo Aleste, Shining Force etc are all great examples, my point was the console doesn't offer much...but there are hidden gems which totally exonerate the console for me

Retr0gamer

Rise of the Robots is not a good looking game. It looks absolutely dire. The art direction is muck and the animation is terrible. All they did was badly render 3D models and took pictures of them. For all the stick I give DKC at least they gave the game good animation that gave the illusion that it wasn't just a few photos taken of CGI art. I don't even think that rise of the robots follows the animation rule that you need at least 3 frames to provide convincing movement.

Snatcher on the other hand has some gorgeous hand drawn artwork, there's no faulting it there. Also just because it's a text adventure doesn't mean it's a bad game. Some of us here love adventure games and I wouldn't dismiss the genre because of a lack of gameplay. As a text addventure Snatcher is on the top pile.

o1s1n

I've never played through Snatcher. Got it up and running the weekend before last in an emulator. Wanted to check it quickly before considering dropping a load of cash for that copy on adverts.

Looks to be an amazing game, but my god, does it borrow from sources heavily. There's 'influenced by' (Obvious ones like Bladerunner and T2)

But then there's simply ripping off. The backdrops of the city are a copy and paste job straght from Neo Tokyo in Akira.





Kinda pissed me off!

Myrddin

Agreed, it borrows heavily from the likes of Blade Runner & Terminator, & the Neo Kobe backdrop basically is straight from Akira.

It 'feels' original to play though, & strings it all together to make a really memorable game

johnny_ultimate

I've never played Snatcher, but whenever I hear 'adventure game' I break out in a cold sweat and have to stop myself randomly consulting gamefaqs.

Cool genre though.

o1s1n

I'll have to give it a run through sometime soon.

Do you have an original PAL Sega CD copy? I think I remember you saying you do? They sure do go for a nice sum these days - a hell of a lot more than Panzer Dragoon Saga.

a5y

EnterNow wrote: »

Since when did that ever equate to a brilliant game though?

Never. I've never implied it did. Hell, maybe even a disproportion amount of games with excellent graphics are utterly terrible.

Snatcher CD is comic-noire based consolised point & click adventure. It's graphics are good in the comic sense, it's music is excellent, & the storytelling & immersion are without a doubt the best the console has to offer.

When I say graphics I mean impressive demonstrations of what the hardware can do. I don't mean how pleasing the end result actually looks (I call that aesthetics), though so many games magazines used the terms interchangeably its kinda a hopeless cause making the distinction.

When I mean how good something looks I'll talk aesthetics. So when I say that Atari 2600 version of Star Castle made on Kickstarter has impressive graphics, I mean it, and similarly when I say I'm not impressed by the Saturn version of Virtua Fighter's graphics .

It doesn't need brilliant tech demo graphics, it's a brilliant game, what else matters

Of course Sonic CD, Robo Aleste, Shining Force etc are all great examples, my point was the console doesn't offer much...but there are hidden gems which totally exonerate the console for me

The only reason the Mega CD didn't offer much was that Sega was utterly nuts when it came to decision making. (From Wikipedia) "Sega of Japan, partnering with Sony, refused to consult with Sega's American division until the project was completed — Sega of America had to assemble parts from various "dummy" units to obtain a working prototype."

Read:

• "All that talent and those resources we have in the US? F### EM."
• "Should big third party developers be able to make games for the launch? Ha ha, no, screw those guys."
• "Sega and Sony are going to be BFFs forever!"

Also for "What is the contingency plan if this doesn't pay off? I don't think a console add-on has ever been proven to be commercially successful."

• "Well, we could either write off the add-on business model as a failed experiment and accept you can't win them all, and commit the entire business in the medium and long term to developing for a new console. Not perfect, and Nintendo would be sure to benefit from the failure but its been proven to be the most successful approach for years."
• "OR if we came really close to success we could commit the entire business to try another add-on. Learn from the mistakes, maybe help 3rd party devs out too so we'll spread the risk."
• "OR we could be nuts and do both and leave customers asking themselves what console they even buy games for any more and give them misleading info on when the next console is getting released."

:pac: "Gee. That third option offers the worst of both worlds and sounds utterly insane. Let's do that one."

(I love Sega, but the same way I love really stupid friendly dogs you have to keep a close eye on).

TL;DR:
Mega CD: Good
Snatcher: Good
Rise of The Robots: "Well it is prettier than Altered Beast."
Sega: Fun, dearly missed, their shareholders must have been insomniacs, barking mad.

Retr0gamer

NTSC copy is even rarer. Jeremy Blaustein in an interview reckons that they sold less than 3000 copies. Did a lot better in Europe.

As for ripping off other sources, sure it's failed film director Kojima that wrote it. The man rips off so many films in his games, I'm amazed people actually think he is a great writer, the mans a total hack and the only reason some of his games come off ok is because he is working with some amazing localisers, who often have to fight tooth and nail with him to rewrite some of the worst dialogue. Still he does make some good games with interesting ideas and snatcher has some interesting ideas for a text adventure.

Myrddin

o1s1n wrote: »

Do you have an original PAL Sega CD copy? I think I remember you saying you do? They sure do go for a nice sum these days - a hell of a lot more than Panzer Dragoon Saga.

Retr0gamer wrote: »

NTSC copy is even rarer. Jeremy Blaustein in an interview reckons that they sold less than 3000 copies. Did a lot better in Europe.

Years & years ago, I was sent Megadrive, Sega CD, & 32X as an Xmas present with some games. One of the games was Snatcher CD [US]. I must have been about 15/16, played them all to bits & finished Snatcher.

About two years later, the PS1 arrived on the scene. Bored with the Sega stuff, I needed funds for a PS1. The rest is history If only I'd known then what I know now :mad:

Anyway...

o1s1n

EnterNow wrote: »

The rest is history

No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ah Jaysus. That is one of the most awful examples I've ever heard of someone selling gear on to buy current gen stuff. You have my condolences.

Feck...a US one and all?

Feck....

Jack burton

Ah thats terrible

Seriously considering dropping some coin on a copy, but now I want a USA one instead :P

*edit

Currently in talks for one at a nice price!

o1s1n

I didn't know the US one was rarer. Really dislike the look of US Sega CD boxes though. The patern down the side is just really awful and unnecessary.

Lovely -



Hidjus! -

Jack burton

I like the long boxes though!

o1s1n

It's the blue and white stripe down the side that makes me want to barf.

Plus the original artwork is square - so the long boxes are going to be cropped with bits cut off!

Jack burton

Just reading there aswell, It wasnt released on the Mega cd in Japan, I was full sure it was.

Anyone here ever play the english patch for Poilcenauts?

Myrddin

Jack burton wrote: »

Just reading there aswell, It wasnt released on the Mega cd in Japan, I was full sure it was.

Anyone here ever play the english patch for Poilcenauts?

Yep, works a charm

Jack burton

Is the game all its cracked up to be?

Retr0gamer

Snatcher is the best reason to break out the justifier light guns.

Jack burton

How about this bad boy?

Myrddin

Jack burton wrote: »

Is the game all its cracked up to be?

Yeah it's pretty good. I didn't enjoy it as much as Snatcher, but Snatcher made a bigger impression on me back then because it was such a huge departure for me to the other types of console games I'd played, & I was a lot younger back then...so it's hard for me to compare the two.

It's well worth a play anyway that's for sure

Myrddin

Jack burton wrote: »

How about this bad boy?

Infideals have one, even nicer with our 25% off. Still though...short of T2 TAC, is there anything worthwhile using it for?

Retr0gamer

The Menacer is such a piece of **** that it won't work with snatcher.

Justifier all the way. Makes you feel like Dirty Harry... well dirty harry with a fetish for 90's neon.

Jack burton

Well I got a menacer in a bundle ages ago and if you can get one cheap then maybe pick one up but I wouldn't recommend it.

Really have to get myself a pink justifier

o1s1n

What's better than using one Justifier? Two at once! You feel like Dirty Harry x2.

I cracked two of them out of storage two weeks ago and have been playing crap loads of Lethal Enforcers 1 & 2. It's an ugly digitized mess but so much fun.

Actually I was playing it so much I pulled a muscle in my arm and it's still sore

Probably because I usually get more into it than I should. 'Die scum!' is yelled at the TV many times.

'You'll never catch me, Sheriff!'

'No, but I'll kill you instead, you absolute ****!'

I also get very angry when people shoot me, especially if it means me losing a power up gun. I usually end up shooting the same spot on the screen long after their corpse has vanished.

a5y

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Rise of the Robots is not a good looking game. It looks absolutely dire. The art direction is muck and the animation is terrible. All they did was badly render 3D models and took pictures of them.

Don't conflate aesthetics, art direction and graphics. They aren't the same, they're measured to different standards (some can't be measured objectively) and they can vary wildly in the one thing.

And don't make me dig up animation snobs fleecing the original Prince of Persia or Dragon's Lair for using rotoscoping, or portrait artists complaining about the competition they were facing from photography, or how for years the oscars excluded from nominations special effects that used computers for the same reason: "because it's cheating."

Its cringeworthy reading. This isn't about prettiness, its about progress, technique and technology.

The only one good thing Rise of The Robots had going for it was it was the first successfully marketed title* the original use of pre-rendered sprites across multiple formats. I don't even say it had good aesthetics back then, never mind how badly it has aged, but graphically it demonstrated it could be done. Certainly didn't demonstrate it should be :pac:

*(The marketing was successful. It only because massively disappointing because it was massively known about. That it also was full of crap about the AI learning from you was sleazy lies, so consider this a victory achieved through fighting dirty)

Its as simple as this: In 1991 Terminator 2 cames out and three years later a famously bad game demonstrates it can be done across 16 bit consoles by 3rd party developers.

• Its a rubbish game.
• It isn't the best demonstation of prerended graphics on a console, even for its time (DKC came out in the same year, and unlike RoTR it wasn't a one trick pony)
• The reviews are rightfully murderous after the hype.

But it raised the bar, it was a proof of concept, and unlike DKC it proved it was an option in all developers' bags of tricks for all options. That it sold well enough to become so-hated proved there was demand for real 3d graphics (and unfortunately overhyped shovelware) across gamers of all consoles..

And frankly since games weren't being taken serious as art forms until Lara's triangular boobs appeared on PlayStation the standards needed lifting fast.

Its not all good though. The trend that bastarding game was the first nail in the coffin of everything from 2d Sonic games to "lets use 3d badly as a stylish gimmick when we could instead use sprites and a simplified aesthetic" :mad: I even blame it a bit for the Western "3d" Sega Saturn logo typography, when before we could have gotten the Japanese "flat, sprite-like" logo.

It wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't printed monotone on the console. It could instead have been an honest hint of the Saturns 2D power, instead it looked more like a hint of Comic Sans to go with Clockwork Knight. :rolleyes: Stuff like that didn't help when Sony was free of any "games are for children" image that Nintendo or Sega had.

For all the stick I give DKC at least they gave the game good animation that gave the illusion that it wasn't just a few photos taken of CGI art. I don't even think that rise of the robots follows the animation rule that you need at least 3 frames to provide convincing movement.

And at least 3? I don't think I could animate something standing still that isn't deliberately rigid (like a twee cardboard cutout no budget stage prop) with only 3 frames.

I think 12 frames per second (sure, reuse frames as needed) is pushing it for smoothness nowadays, and that was an acceptable standard for a long time, at least in some parts.

a5y

Retr0gamer wrote: »

The Menacer is such a piece of **** that it won't work with snatcher.

Justifier all the way. Makes you feel like Dirty Harry... well dirty harry with a fetish for 90's neon.

So a cyberpunk Dirty Harry. Perfect actually!

Retr0gamer

a5y wrote: »

tl;dr

I wouldn't even give Rise of the Robots that much credit. It used the same digitising technique Mortal Kombat used and even then that was first used in 1983 with the Journey arcade game. As for using pre-rendered digitised graphics it was exactly the same technique numerous PC and Amiga games had been using before it. Lots of amiga games used the technique since most CGI was created on amiga farms at the time. Stardust is an earlier game that came to mind.

As for creating the whole pre-rendered CGI fad, I'd say it would have died out with RotR if it wasn't for Donkey Kong Country being so successful. I'm pretty sure that was driven by marketing people seeing how successful DKC was and not by the disaster RotR became.

So the only thing the game has going for it is being a minor **** smear on gaming history and having incredibly underhanded and evil marketing. Evil because they pretty much stole kids money with their marketing.

It definitely isn't a technical achievement on any system either. It's got a dreadful engine and feels like it's held together by the programmers sheer optimism. DKC at least pioneered a technique to increase the available colours on screen that the SNES could display.

Look I'm even saying nice things about DKC!

o1s1n

First time I've ever seen anyone attribute anything positive to ROTR (Other than the comical reference to Brain May without any of his music)

Proceed. I shall get my popcorn.

Retr0gamer

I asked Brian May about Rise of the Robots (I've met and drank with the legend twice). It left such a lasting impression with him that he didn't know what I was talking about.

o1s1n

You drank with Brian May? How the hell did you end up in that situation?

Does standing next to Michael Biehn with a beer in my hand count as drinking with him? He was fairly sozzled himself on wine if that helps the situation :pac:

Andrew76

o1s1n wrote: »

You drank with Brian May? How the hell did you end up in that situation?

Probably back in retr0's drag queen escort days, that meme comes to mind. :pac:

DinoRex

o1s1n wrote: »

Does standing next to Michael Biehn with a beer in my hand count as drinking with him? He was fairly sozzled himself on wine if that helps the situation :pac:

That's like standing next to Solid Snake!

Retr0gamer

o1s1n wrote: »

You drank with Brian May? How the hell did you end up in that situation?

Does standing next to Michael Biehn with a beer in my hand count as drinking with him? He was fairly sozzled himself on wine if that helps the situation :pac:

A friend of mine is one of his godsons. Got us free tickets and backstage for the last Queen gig in Dublin and into the green room and after party when he was promoting We Will Rock You on the Late Late Show. He wasn't sozzled but very interested in my phd, he's a bit of a science nerd

o1s1n

Andrew76 wrote: »

Probably back in retr0's drag queen escort days, that meme comes to mind. :pac:

Myrddin

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I asked Brian May about Rise of the Robots (I've met and drank with the legend twice)

Would you not of thought of something else to ask like say, what if felt like to walk out on stage in Wembley 86 & play one of the best god damned concerts the world has ever seen & likely never will again??

o1s1n

Retr0gamer wrote: »

A friend of mine is one of his godsons. Got us free tickets and backstage for the last Queen gig in Dublin and into the green room and after party when he was promoting We Will Rock You on the Late Late Show. He wasn't sozzled but very interested in my phd, he's a bit of a science nerd

Lucky lucky git!

DinoRex

Always love this comment on youtube:

Retr0gamer

EnterNow wrote: »

Would you not of thought of something else to ask like say, what if felt like to walk out on stage in Wembley 86 & play one of the best god damned concerts the world has ever seen & likely never will again??

I was more interested in asking him what it's like working with the Gamesmaster on Sky at Night.

Myrddin

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I was more interested in asking him what it's like working with the Gamesmaster on Sky at Night.

I know he's an amateur physicist...but seriously, it's Queen ffs!

Retr0gamer

I did ask him about Queen but was a bit star struck and he was genuinely more interested in chatting about science

DinoRex

Oh! A Tex Murphy Kickstarter. Project Fedora:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/251414413/tex-murphy-project-fedora

Steve X2

a5y wrote: »

Zombies killed

Pic 1: Killcount 0
Pic 2: 0
Pic 3: Still 0 :pac:

Pic 4: 2 dead zombie GAA teams. And a their zombie bus driver. All with headshots. :eek:

And a zombie tried wanted to parley as well, though that wasn't a headshot. I'm not risking joking about that because Steve possibly flung a the bus at it.

Twas a long night and I did what I had to do



.

Andrew76

Steve SI wrote: »

Twas a long night and I did what I had to do



.

OI! That looks dangerously close to a spoiler pic! (I'm well behind on the episodes damn SOPA crackdown) :pac:

Bit the bullet and got the game. Now for the long wait while it downloads via Peasant Broadband.

SdoowSirhc

atavan-halen wrote: »

Feck off you! There's only room for one young person here and that's me! :P plus I still have a few days left of teenage angst.

It's okay, I'm just observing the human behavior on this thread and narrating in my Attenborough voice

o1s1n

DinoRex wrote: »

That's like standing next to Solid Snake!

FUUUUUUUU

How did I never notice this?!?

****. I could have gotten my NES Metal Gear signed (stfu Retr0:p)

That would have been amazing



Edit - by the way, more Kojima stealing. Why wont he leave my favourite films alone???

SdoowSirhc

Retr0gamer wrote: »

A friend of mine is one of his godsons. Got us free tickets and backstage for the last Queen gig in Dublin and into the green room and after party when he was promoting We Will Rock You on the Late Late Show. He wasn't sozzled but very interested in my phd, he's a bit of a science nerd

The image I have of you now...



Edit* i cant figure out how to attach a pic :l

Steve X2

Andrew76 wrote: »

OI! That looks dangerously close to a spoiler pic! (I'm well behind on the episodes damn SOPA crackdown) :pac:

Bit the bullet and got the game. Now for the long wait while it downloads via Peasant Broadband.

You mean Arma 2 and the Mod? Cool.
It's a damn good game.

.

Andrew76

Steve SI wrote: »

You mean Arma 2 and the Mod? Cool.
It's a damn good game.

.

Yep, be a while before it's done downloading etc. I take it the server issues will get better in time? I don't have hours to spend trying to get into a game.