Son Of General Retro Discussion

johnny_ultimate

The only nice thing I can say about it is that the world's full of mildly interactive distractions. Of course, it would be better if any of them were actually good or had depth, but at least you can microwave popcorn with surprisingly accurate popping physics in between the bland corridor shooting.

o1s1n

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

but at least you can microwave popcorn with surprisingly accurate popping physics in between the bland corridor shooting.

And in the end, isn't that all that matters?

Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy

Retr0gamer

Here's a controversial opinion:

Duke Nukem 3D wasn't that great.

Sure the shareware episode was fantastic with some of the best level design ever. However epsiode 2 is a bit crap and it picks up in episode 3 but it never reaches the heights of the first episode. The fourth episode added to later editions was a bit better.

However if you want to play truly great build engine games go for Blood and Shadow Warrior. Finished Blood recently and it's great. Both those games are consistently brilliant the whole way through.

o1s1n

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Here's a controversial opinion:

Duke Nukem 3D wasn't that great.

Sure the shareware episode was fantastic with some of the best level design ever. However epsiode 2 is a bit crap and it picks up in episode 3 but it never reaches the heights of the first episode. The fourth episode added to later editions was a bit better.

However if you want to play truly great build engine games go for Blood and Shadow Warrior. Finished Blood recently and it's great. Both those games are consistently brilliant the whole way through.

You're dead right. I have fond memories of being far too young to play Duke 3D and that's most of the appeal of it for me to be honest. The first episode is really what it's all about.

Blood and Shadow Warrior are far better. Shadow Warrior would probably me my favourite build engine game. The one liners are great.

Do you want to wash Wang or do you want to watch Wang wash Wang?

CiDeRmAn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Here's a controversial opinion:

Duke Nukem 3D wasn't that great.

Sure the shareware episode was fantastic with some of the best level design ever. However epsiode 2 is a bit crap and it picks up in episode 3 but it never reaches the heights of the first episode. The fourth episode added to later editions was a bit better.

Not really that controversial tbh.
I remember there were those who were beckoning the advent of proper 3D rendered fps, and not the throwback of Duke, which felt more like Doom with a z axis.
Now, I know that mightn't be a negative in itself but I never enjoyed Duke beyond the opener.
It was way overrated at the time and, having downloaded the XBLA edition for old times sake, I am still underwhelmed by it.

The best thing I can say about it is that the Saturn edition is a technical triumph, but that has more to do with the developers Lobotomy than anyone else.

Retr0gamer

Well I preferred the Build Engine over early 3D engine games like Quake. Back then there wasn't really much you could do with a 3D engine game since it was so taxing on the system. However Build engine offered a lot on interactivity with the environment and a lot more detail.

Early games like Quake, Quake 2 and Unreal were really just a series of long brown corridors and nothing looked like it had a place or purpose. In Duke Nukem and other build engine games you could be exploring an office complex, cinema or haunted manion and the look and feel of the rooms and location would be spot on.

Before Duke and the build engine the only games that came close to that level of detail and interactivity in the environments was System Shock which was a massive system hog, and Dark Forces. The build engine was a much better engine than the engine used in both those games. Subsequent 3D engines were more advanced but couldn't give the same level of detail. It wasn't until Sin and more importantly Half-Life and System Shock 2 that 3D engines had caught up with Build in that regard.

johnny_ultimate

Its Duke himself that has aged badly. As a teenager his 'risque' one liners might have been something to enjoy when your parents weren't listening.

Now the casual sexism is cringey. Its the Your Highness of gaming. And all you have is a bland shooter to fall back on.

Retr0gamer

I find Duke Nukem 3D was funny because it was knowingly lame. Duke Nukem Forever tries to hard and just comes across as crash and poorly written.

CiDeRmAn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Well I preferred the Build Engine over early 3D engine games like Quake. Back then there wasn't really much you could do with a 3D engine game since it was so taxing on the system. However Build engine offered a lot on interactivity with the environment and a lot more detail.

Early games like Quake, Quake 2 and Unreal were really just a series of long brown corridors and nothing looked like it had a place or purpose. In Duke Nukem and other build engine games you could be exploring an office complex, cinema or haunted manion and the look and feel of the rooms and location would be spot on.

Before Duke and the build engine the only games that came close to that level of detail and interactivity in the environments was System Shock which was a massive system hog, and Dark Forces. The build engine was a much better engine than the engine used in both those games. Subsequent 3D engines were more advanced but couldn't give the same level of detail. It wasn't until Sin and more importantly Half-Life and System Shock 2 that 3D engines had caught up with Build in that regard.

Horses for course, I just didn't like the game that much at all.
I think you need to play Quake again though, I found it to be far more, well, architectural in nature, the levels, especially that first episode, have a "Dark Souls" thing going on.
Ok, there is a lot of brown but there is a tangibility to it all that the paper thin sets of Duke lack completely.
And as for it's "sense of humour", I'm sure the developers will say they were going for irony but instead it just plain sucks.

I didn't think much of Dark Forces, felt too much like a Doom mod, and it's sequels all sailed the Fail Boat being very weak attempts to use 3D, combat tended to stink in my opinion as well.

Half Life and System Shock 2 both nailed it I suppose, Thief as well.

Descent and Descent II were earlier and provided proper 3D fps thrill, albeit in zero gravity and from the cockpit of a spaceship.

Retr0gamer

I don't need to play Quake again. I'm not talking about the greater architectural nature of the levels, it's definitely better than build engine levels. It's more that the levels really didn't resemble anything and had not sense of purpse. For example:

Quake


Another brown corridor

Duke 3D:



A bar

There's a lot more detail in allowed in Duke 3D so places resemble what they are meant to be. It's crude but it gets the job done. It wasn't until Half-Life or System Shock 2 where I'd be wandering around a science facility that looked and felt like a science facility and not a series of brown interconnected corridors.

As for Dark Forces, how dare you! It was much better than a Doom mod. Did you play the PC version or the PS1 version because the PS1 version had the size of the open areas greatly reduced and was much more restrictive with only tight corridors. Dark Forces engine was very close to the Build engine in that it could do massive open environments, had destructible walls and could also do room over room effects. Thought it was much more advanced than Doom and a great game.

As for the sequels. I really enjoyed Jedi Knight especially when it was one of the very first games to have 3D card support and I was the first of my friends with a 3D card so it looked amazing. Went back to play the expansion pack that I got cheap on steam. My rose tinted specs were removed instantly. It's really aged badly to the point that it's not fun at all.

I never liked the Quake 3 engine sequels by Raven either. They got good reviews but I found they were really generic FPS games with a star wars skin.

CiDeRmAn

Retr0gamer wrote: »

I don't need to play Quake again. I'm not talking about the greater architectural nature of the levels, it's definitely better than build engine levels. It's more that the levels really didn't resemble anything and had not sense of purpse. For example:

Quake


Another brown corridor

Duke 3D:



A bar

Hey man, I just googled Dark Souls and I got a shed load of brown images!
image search for Dark Souls

In Quake it was a dark and gloomy castle.
There are only so many colours that are going to be appropriate there.
I reckon when Crown and Dulux make up there paint charts especially for dark and gloomy castles there is a certain absence of pinks, mauves, emerald greens and all those other colours associated more with dodgy bathrooms from the 80's.

A sense of purpose?
In Quake?
To get to the end of the level without getting gibbed mostly!!
But then at least it tried to get away from coloured key cards, a thing that Duke 3D explicitly leaves as a major mechanic!

There's a lot more detail in allowed in Duke 3D so places resemble what they are meant to be. It's crude but it gets the job done.

And they can keep it!
I didn't like the thing really at all.
I know I'm being completely subjective but I was completely left cold by the bulk of the game.

It wasn't until Half-Life or System Shock 2 where I'd be wandering around a science facility that looked and felt like a science facility

Couldn't agree more.

As for Dark Forces, how dare you!

It's pants!
And not nice Agent Provocateur pants, but big grey, old Primark/Pennys pants!

It was much better than a Doom mod. Did you play the PC version or the PS1 version because the PS1 version had the size of the open areas greatly reduced and was much more restrictive with only tight corridors. Dark Forces engine was very close to the Build engine in that it could do massive open environments, had destructible walls and could also do room over room effects. Thought it was much more advanced than Doom and a great game.

And it was pants, see previous comment!
I played, and still have somewhere, the PC version, I didn't like it then either.

As for the sequels. I really enjoyed Jedi Knight especially when it was one of the very first games to have 3D card support and I was the first of my friends with a 3D card so it looked amazing. Went back to play the expansion pack that I got cheap on steam. My rose tinted specs were removed instantly. It's really aged badly to the point that it's not fun at all.

I never liked the Quake 3 engine sequels by Raven either. They got good reviews but I found they were really generic FPS games with a star wars skin.

I'm with you there, found the immediate sequel fun at the time but lost it's lustre big time in hindsight.
And the later sequels were awful, wasted the time installing the demos and then uninstalling them shortly after.

If we are talking FPS I did enjoy Hexen 2 back in the day, using the Quake engine.
I liked it's predecessors as well, Heretic and Hexen on the PC.

Retr0gamer

Quake still had the Silver and Gold keys iirc.

Never liked Ravens games after Heretic and Hexen although I didn't play Heretic and Hexen 2. Recently got Singularity in the steam sale and heard it's a lot better than their previous games and also that the latest wolfenstein wasn't bad either. We'll see.

Myrddin

A visual description of this discussion

Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy

EnterNow wrote: »

A visual description of this discussion

http://i40.tinypic.com/k2z1gl.jpg

just give it a beard, same thing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlp0ssW6iu0

DinoRex

I only liked the first episode of Duke 3D as well.

Was always hugely impressed that I was actually able to download all that back in the day.

But I remember a friend bought the full game and I got a copy off him and I distinctly remember being thankful I hadn't forked out for the thing.

I think Prey was a much better update on the kind of game that Duke was. And was in production for just about as long.

CiDeRmAn

DinoRex wrote: »

I only liked the first episode of Duke 3D as well.

Was always hugely impressed that I was actually able to download all that back in the day.

But I remember a friend bought the full game and I got a copy off him and I distinctly remember being thankful I hadn't forked out for the thing.

I think Prey was a much better update on the kind of game that Duke was. And was in production for just about as long.

Well said, I really liked Prey and it pre-empted the central conceit of Portal as well!
I bought it when it came out on the 360 and really enjoyed it.
I think it goes for 7 euro preowned at the mo, well worth having, certainly streets ahead of anything Raven has released on the next gen consoles.

I look so much cooler in the pic, thanks Enternow! (the cheques in the post!)
And Retr0, you will never outrun that photo, ever!

Myrddin

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

And Retr0, you will never outrun that photo, ever!

Once it's on Google Images yer f**ked

DinoRex

pdbhp

All PS Vita launch issues aside sweet vid for Katamari:D

pdbhp

All PS Vita launch issues aside sweet vid for Katamari:D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFxSa5sBMbg

Sparks43

WbfsSync is the greatest thing since sliced bread


Even better then Mince Pies and xmas Pudding with Brandy Butter


That is all:D

Doge

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Sure the shareware episode was fantastic with some of the best level design ever. However epsiode 2 is a bit crap and it picks up in episode 3 but it never reaches the heights of the first episode. The fourth episode added to later editions was a bit better.

I think in episode 2 it's the setting / storyline that restricts the level design.

I think they did a great job on the design of the space stations and lunar bases,

but at the end of the day, thats all they were......space stations.

Nothing like the diversity of natural landscapes and urban architecture of Earth.

And I think this is one reason why Duke Nukem Forever was a fail also,

setting the game in Las Vegas really restricted it imo,
and the storyline was very weak, the worst part of the story for me is when you meet the president.

Duke3D had a very subtle storyline if any (aliens have invaded earth in the future) and it told that story solely in terms of level progression which was great, you never knew what was coming next.

Duke3D brought us all the way from the Earth's Surface, to the Earth's crust and beyond, it felt so unlimited.

And was certainly a hell of a lot more of an adventure.

I'm an absolute fanatic of Duke 3D, it is my favourite FPS of all time,
I have seriously love for it, so I might struggle to criticise episode 2 and 3.

I think if they were very like Episode 1, people would criticize it the game for being too samey samey.

I have a lot of favourite levels from those episodes, I think I need to replay them again just to to compare them to the first EP.

The amount of detail and references in that game even give games today a run for their money, especially with all the secret places and levels.

Simple things like being able to walk over a blood spattered corpse, and see your bloody footprints is just one example,
and there's so many games which lack that even today, especially Duke Nukem Forever.

Being able to see blood slide down a wall was awesome also!

The action in duke3D is responsible for me having some form of gaming ADHD today, I prefer action games where I can get a quick fix, and be stimulated all the way through.

The flow of action in the game for me will always be far superior to Blood and Shadow Warrior, and I have often lost the motivation to play on in those games.

Especially with Blood, i found the visual style and atmosphere of the game extremely bland (too brown and grey!) and depressing, which is probably what was intended, but rapes my motivation of playing it through.

I loved the additional features of the build engine in Shadow Warrior, like all the alternative fire modes for example,

But I found a lot of the levels a bit too long winded or something.

Pyongyang

Does anyone use the Marvel app on iPad? There's a few cheeky sales going on right now (comics for 99c). Any good? Worth a hoof?

Pyongyang

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQc5TIin9S0

Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy

Pyongyang wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQc5TIin9S0

is it too late to ring Santa?

Retr0gamer

I was also pleasantly surprised by Prey. Really didn't expect much but it really delivered. Not an amazing game but very solid with great ideas.

johnny_ultimate

Yeah Prey was solidly enjoyable.

Just played some Child of Eden. Last level is level of the decade. Swoon.

Doge

Speaking of Duke3D, check out this standalone eduke32 mod,

Sonic The Hedgehog 3D:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vggTAq4UmNQ

You can download it here, and do not need duke3D to play it:



http://sonic3d.ru/en/downloads/category/3-current

Steve X2

Just had a go this morning on the PS VITA for a good few mins.

The thing is actually smaller than I thought. It always looked big in the pictures as it was been held my a dainty Japanese hand. It's only a bit bigger than the PSP and feels very nice in my hands which are on the larger size. The game cards themselves are tiny, a good bit smaller than DS/3DS carts and smaller than an SD card(I think, only had the card in my hand for a few seconds). The new memory cards they have are very small but larger than a micro sd card (kids are gonna lose these things).

The one thing I didn't expect was that the cases for the games would be so cool. They're like mini bluray cases and I really like the look and feel of them. I can see a bunch of them sitting on my shelf at home looking pretty

I might cave in and buy one later today, I'm not sure what to do :rolleyes:

But that screen is a thing of beauty and just the right size and res for a mobile console. And the games, well you've all seen the videos and they just look great. I might try get a quick demo again later on today but gotta go do some sort of work thingy now.

.

Doge

o1s1n wrote: »

The Sonic cart seems to be the same as dumped ones. I'm more interested in dumping the Daze Before Christmas and Zero Tolerance carts. The Zero Tolerance especially seeing as it's completely undumped, radically different to the final version and probably of historical importance seeing as it's one of the first proper FPS console games.

You seriously have to throw up a gameplay video of that Zero Tolerance prototype! :eek:


Would love to play with your dump too if you ever squeeze one out!

Steve X2

iMAME is out in the apple app store for iPhone and iPad.
It only has a few crappy games included but grab it quick before it gets pulled as there is a way to load more roms onto it even on non jailbroken devices.

http://toucharcade.com/2011/12/21/get-it-before-its-gone-imame-hits-the-app-store/

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=485639079&mt=8

.

DinoRex

Zelda Timeline revealed:

http://kotaku.com/5869993/this-might-actually-be-the-official-zelda-timeline

(No mention of the CDi games...)

Retr0gamer

We've 3 splits now? I call ridiculous fan fiction.

Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy

Retr0gamer wrote: »

We've 3 splits now? I call ridiculous fan fiction.

Retr0gamer

Atlus are the kings of trolling.

Every clue they gave about their next project pointed towards Growlanser 4 which everyone wanted. Turns out it was Gungir.

Then an hour later they announce the clue for their NEXT game saying it will start with 'G'

johnny_ultimate

Yeah got a good chuckle out of tonight's Atlus Faithful newsletter.

And no new clue til 2012! Lulz.

Sparks43

DinoRex wrote: »

Zelda Timeline revealed:

http://kotaku.com/5869993/this-might-actually-be-the-official-zelda-timeline

(No mention of the CDi games...)

I'm calling Pulp Fiction on this tbh

valleyoftheunos

Steve SI wrote: »

Just had a go this morning on the PS VITA for a good few mins.

The thing is actually smaller than I thought. It always looked big in the pictures as it was been held my a dainty Japanese hand. It's only a bit bigger than the PSP and feels very nice in my hands which are on the larger size. The game cards themselves are tiny, a good bit smaller than DS/3DS carts and smaller than an SD card(I think, only had the card in my hand for a few seconds). The new memory cards they have are very small but larger than a micro sd card (kids are gonna lose these things).

The one thing I didn't expect was that the cases for the games would be so cool. They're like mini bluray cases and I really like the look and feel of them. I can see a bunch of them sitting on my shelf at home looking pretty

I might cave in and buy one later today, I'm not sure what to do :rolleyes:

But that screen is a thing of beauty and just the right size and res for a mobile console. And the games, well you've all seen the videos and they just look great. I might try get a quick demo again later on today but gotta go do some sort of work thingy now.

.

where did you try it?

Myrddin

DinoRex wrote: »

Zelda Timeline revealed:

http://kotaku.com/5869993/this-might-actually-be-the-official-zelda-timeline

(No mention of the CDi games...)

Then it can't be cannon, still, it'll please the kiddies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHIP9UtkQDQ

Steve X2

valleyoftheunos wrote: »

where did you try it?

The Tsutaya store in Shibuya.


.

valleyoftheunos

ah right, thats a bit out of my way then

Retr0gamer

I don't why some fans think that Sonic CD is the best sonic ever but I have to say that the XBLA rerelease is very impressive. It's rebuilt from the grond up rather than emulated so it's not horribly stretched or boredered yet still remains very faithful. It's only 400 points so hardly a rip off. Well worth giving it another shot at that price point.

Pyongyang

Steve SI wrote: »

iMAME is out in the apple app store for iPhone and iPad.
It only has a few crappy games included but grab it quick before it gets pulled as there is a way to load more roms onto it even on non jailbroken devices.

http://toucharcade.com/2011/12/21/get-it-before-its-gone-imame-hits-the-app-store/

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=485639079&mt=8

.

I can't find it in search results on the App Store. Guess it's been pulled already.

Steve X2

Pyongyang wrote: »

I can't find it in search results on the App Store. Guess it's been pulled already.

Nope, still there. Just click on the app store link above, but be quick

It's not showing up in search results for most people.

.

DinoRex

Pyongyang wrote: »

I can't find it in search results on the App Store. Guess it's been pulled already.

Yeah, I kept getting the 'I'm a Megan Fox Fan' app.

But I got it in the end via the link.

Pyongyang

Phew! Yep, got it now. Even though I don't 'do' MAME, just worth a look to see I guess.

Steve X2

Pyongyang wrote: »

Phew! Yep, got it now. Even though I don't 'do' MAME, just worth a look to see I guess.

It's a pity you dont "do" MAME.
It's not just for playing games you know, in fact thats not its only purpose at all. It's great to be able to see the history of games, the artwork, the pcb's, the cabs, the flyers, marquess etc. I use it as a research tool a lot of the times.
The fact that it plays the games as well is just a bonus, a really big bonus

.

o1s1n

I picked up a great MAME pack there recently and it came with all the marquees, bezels and other artwork bits and pieces.

Theyre a nice way of filling the black boarders either side of the screen in vertical games.

Pyongyang

I've nothing against MAME at all, I just figure if I used it I'd end up with about 9 trillion games and never devote any time to them.

If I stick to buying original games I've invested money in to them, so I'm inclined to play them more. That's all. If anything I think MAME is a fantastic preservation project.