Tonight With Vincent Browne Thread v2.0

mix_up

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Arrgghhh... one of the audio filters on my TV has just failed...

Pretty cowardly judgement by the three judges... "She was an exceptional person"... yeah, and they are leaving her to suffer... Save your mealy mouthed words if your not gonna help her..

incredibly cowardly descision

Lady Chatterton

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

I bet Deirdre O'Shaughnessy is really glad she made that journey all the way to Dublin for a 30 second conversation :rolleyes:

The newspaper review is a joke, Vinny should give it enough time or drop it altogether :mad:

Skid

COYW wrote: »

Every section of society got to submit their opinion today, RC, CoI, Methodist, Jewish and atheist.

I don't think any Religious group should have been allowed into that Forum.

How can any of them claim to represent the views of their congregation on such a divisive issue? Go into any Church, Synagogue or Mosque (or Atheist meeting) and you will hear several disparate views on Abortion.

Lady Chatterton

Skid wrote: »

I don't think any Religious group should have been allowed into that Forum.

How can any of them claim to represent the views of their congregation on such a divisive issue? Go into any Church, Synagogue or Mosque (or Atheist meeting) and you will hear several disparate views on Abortion.

I disagree, I think the debate needs lots of opinions, there is something to be learned from every contribution, even if you don't agree with it.

Harry Angstrom

MrsD007 wrote: »

The newspaper review is a joke, Vinny should give it enough time or drop it altogether :mad:

The thing is, when Sam Smyth stood in for Vinnie last year, he gave plenty of time to the newspaper review. Vinnie seems to think he's got a 1 hour programme, when in reality it's not much more than 40 minutes if you take out the ad breaks and the news. Time management is not one of Vinnie's strongpoints

Skid

MrsD007 wrote: »

I disagree, I think the debate needs lots of opinions, there is something to be learned from every contribution, even if you don't agree with it.

Sticking a Dog Collar around your neck does not make your opinion more valid than any other citizen of this country.

RayM

MrsD007 wrote: »

They still decided to the tick the 'Catholic' box on the Census form though

I think they probably need to reword that question. Or better still - just get rid of it altogether. It should be no more relevant to the state than whether you prefer Eastenders or Coronation Street, Barry's Tea or Lyons, etc.

Lady Chatterton

Skid wrote: »

Sticking a Dog Collar around your neck does not want your opinion more valid than any other citizen of this country.

No one said it did!

However, 84% of people in this country say they are catholic so that gives the church a mandate as far as I'm concerned.

COYW

Firstly, as MrsD007 says, they tick the box in the census. The census doesn't lie. Whether its mammy doing it or they do it themselves doesn't matter.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Essentially they are catholics by dint of apathy rather than anything else. Church attendance is far less than 84%, most people under 60 only go to churches for weddings, funerals and other social occasions.

You are correct in your remarks about people attitudes to the church i.e. a la carte Catholicism but the fact remains that a sizeable majority of citizens turn to the RC church for the most important occasions in their lives and that gives them grounds to speak on these issues.

Sarky

MrsD007 wrote: »

No one said it did!

However, 84% of people in this country say they are catholic so that gives the church a mandate as far as I'm concerned.

The country could be 100% hardcore Catholic, it would not give the church a mandate to lecture government on lawmaking.

Lady Chatterton

RayM wrote: »

I think they probably need to reword that question. Or better still - just get rid of it altogether. It should be no more relevant to the state than whether you prefer Eastenders or Coronation Street, Barry's Tea or Lyons, etc.

There was the option to tick the “no religion" box or leave the question unanswered. However, people decided to select the catholic church.

Lady Chatterton

Sarky wrote: »

The country could be 100% hardcore Catholic, it would not give the church a mandate to lecture government on lawmaking.

They were invited to contribute to the consultation process along with other interest groups. Atheist Ireland were there too

COYW

Sarky wrote: »

The country could be 100% hardcore Catholic, it would not give the church a mandate to lecture government on lawmaking.

A wide variety of groups, religious and non-religious have been invited to give their opinions on the issue. No harm in getting peoples opinions.

Skid

COYW wrote: »

Firstly, as MrsD007 says, they tick the box in the census. The census doesn't lie. Whether its mammy doing it or they do it themselves doesn't matter.

MrsD007 wrote: »

No one said it did!

However, 84% of people in this country say they are catholic so that gives the church a mandate as far as I'm concerned.

There was no small print in the Census to indicate 'by ticking this box you revoke all rights to have your own opinions'. The day when Citizens of this country blindly followed what a man on the altar dictated to them has long gone.

COYW

Skid wrote: »

There was no small print in the Census to indicate 'by ticking this box you revoke all rights to have your own opinions'. The day when Citizens of this country blindly followed what a man on the altar dictated to them has long gone.

No but by ticking that box, you are saying that you are a member of that church and therefore you subscribe to its philosophy and teachings. If you don't agree with its teachings, don't tick the box.

Anyway, it's leaba time.

Lady Chatterton

Skid wrote: »

There was no small print in the Census to indicate 'by ticking this box you revoke all rights to have your own opinions'. The day when Citizens of this country blindly followed what a man on the altar dictated to them has long gone.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this occasion Skid.

Sarky

COYW wrote: »

A wide variety of groups, religious and non-religious have been invited to give their opinions on the issue. No harm in getting peoples opinions.

Not at all. Opinions are not a mandate either, though. Opinions are best ignored in such processes in favour of credible sources and evidence. One does not make good law on the opinions of people with little/no experience on the topic being discussed.

If a priest wants a mandate, he can damn well run for office.

Harry Angstrom

There was a man from Atheist Ireland speaking today. Can he be 100% certain that he's speaking on behalf of all atheists? I know one or two atheists who are opposed to abortion so I doubt he's representing them.

Sarky

I doubt he said he was. More likely he was using reason and citing cases and events that actually happened to back up his points.

Catholics don't have that choice though. Their priests represent them whether they like it or not. It's right there in the catechism. The clergy decide what's right or wrong. The laity obey without question. Anyone who starts forming their own opinion on morality is not adhering to catholicism.

Skid

COYW wrote: »

No but by ticking that box, you are saying that you are a member of that church and therefore you subscribe to its philosophy and teachings.

I don't remember seeing that on the Census form. The question asked was “What is your religion?"

RayM

MrsD007 wrote: »

There was the option to tick the “no religion" box or leave the question unanswered. However, people decided to select the catholic church.

I went to a regular Sunday mass last year for the first time since I was a child, and I was shocked at the low attendance (I was also surprised that they seem to have changed the wording of the Creed, and replaced "and also with you" with "and with your spirit" in my absence, but that's another issue altogether...). I don't believe for a second that 84% of Irish people are Catholic, regardless of what they (or their mammies) misguidedly said on the census form.

Lady Chatterton

RayM wrote: »

I went to a regular Sunday mass last year for the first time since I was a child, and I was shocked at the low attendance (I was also surprised that they seem to have changed the wording of the Creed, and replaced "and also with you" with "and with your spirit" in my absence, but that's another issue altogether...). I don't believe for a second that 84% of Irish people are Catholic, regardless of what they (or their mammies) misguidedly said on the census form.

Church attendances have been falling that is not in question but apparently there has been some increase in numbers attending church since the recession, I suppose some people return to the church at times of need. The fact remains that 84% of people have some association with the Catholic Church otherwise why would they tick the box when there were other options open to them.

AK333

RayM wrote: »

I went to a regular Sunday mass last year for the first time since I was a child, and I was shocked at the low attendance (I was also surprised that they seem to have changed the wording of the Creed, and replaced "and also with you" with "and with your spirit" in my absence, but that's another issue altogether...). I don't believe for a second that 84% of Irish people are Catholic, regardless of what they (or their mammies) misguidedly said on the census form.

I'm a regular mass goer (don't hold that against me) and would go to different churches/times etc, depending on what we're up to, and apart from 12 noon mass, most of them are very empty, and the people that are there, are generally speaking, over 60. I honestly don't think the RCC speak for the majority of people living here. People might say they are catholic because they were christened, but they don't actually practice their faith - cba getting out of bed probably after the night before

Harry Angstrom

AK333 wrote: »

I'm a regular mass goer (don't hold that against me) and would go to different churches/times etc, depending on what we're up to, and apart from 12 noon mass, most of them are very empty, and the people that are there, are generally speaking, over 60. I honestly don't think the RCC speak for the majority of people living here. People might say they are catholic because they were christened, but they don't actually practice their faith - cba getting out of bed probably after the night before

People in their 60's or over have just as much right to be heard and represented in this country. I don't think there's a Constitutional stipulation which states that only young trendy types should be entitled to vote or to have their opinions heard. Maybe the RC Church don't speak for the majority of people but they still represent a fairly sizeable number of older people in this country.

RayM

MrsD007 wrote: »

Church attendances have been falling that is not in question but apparently there has been some increase in numbers attending church since the recession, I suppose some people return to the church at times of need. The fact remains that 84% of people have some association with the Catholic Church otherwise why would they tick the box when there were other options open to them.

I don't think the fact that 84% of people claim to have some sort of vague association with the Catholic Church should result in it being given any political influence. If the bishops really feel the need to participate in this debate, they have every opportunity to do so from the pulpit.

Lady Chatterton

RayM wrote: »

I don't think the fact that 84% of people claim to have some sort of vague association with the Catholic Church should result in it being given any political influence. If the bishops really feel the need to participate in this debate, they have every opportunity to do so from the pulpit.

You're completely missing the point, they were invited to contribute to the discussion like lots of other groups (lawyers, medical profession, other churches, atheists, pro-choice and pro-life groups)

RayM

MrsD007 wrote: »

You're completely missing the point, they were invited to contribute to the discussion like lots of other groups (lawyers, medical profession, other churches, atheists, pro-choice and pro-life groups)

I don't think I'm missing the point. My point is that the churches (or Atheist Ireland, for that matter) shouldn't be given that platform (treated as being equal to actual experts), invited or not.

BaZmO*

MrsD007 wrote: »

You're completely missing the point, they were invited to contribute to the discussion like lots of other groups (lawyers, medical profession, other churches, atheists, pro-choice and pro-life groups)

Unfortunately the most important group (women who have had an abortion, for whatever reason) were not invited. It shouldn't be a religious debate. The church have one stance that is based on their perceived morality. The debate should be based on facts.

Callan57

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'd wager that most people say that they are catholics because their parents were catholics and that they were indoctrinated in catholic schools (which until recently most working and lower-middle class people had no choice but to go to) and they haven't really put much thought into whether they actually believe what the churches preach or not.

Essentially they are catholics by dint of apathy rather than anything else. Church attendance is far less than 84%, most people under 60 only go to churches for weddings, funerals and other social occasions. And when it comes to issues like contraception then most irish catholics are very a la carte.

Agreed, it's purely cultural for most people. Technically I'm a Catholic but I don't agree with or adhere to 10% of RC teaching ... a simple accident of birth for the vast majority of people.

Lady Chatterton

BaZmO* wrote: »

Unfortunately the most important group (women who have had an abortion, for whatever reason) were not invited. It shouldn't be a religious debate. The church have one stance that is based on their perceived morality. The debate should be based on facts.

Yeah, I agree, they should have been invited to speak.

Last year, Ryan Tubridy invited a number of women on to the LLS to discuss their experiences of abortion, they all had abortions because their babies were incompatible with life. I know they had specifically asked to take part in the discussion this week but they were refused an opportunity.