Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

Deise Doodler

Funfair wrote: »

The biggest problem in Waterford is looking over at what the other Counties are doing and comparing their methods with ours..

Fcuk the Cork's Tipp's and Kilkenny's let them train robots if they want..

We tried under Davy the fitness route and we failed misserably go back to doing what we do best e.g. play cute skillful hurling using skillful players and not fitness fanactics who are brain dead.


Dont think you could call the Killkenny's/Tipps Brain dead ( Hurling wise) fitness fanactics, Robots ? yea would give you that one

ArtVandelay76

Funfair wrote: »

That's because they don't give him the special treatment.. Justin mac bent over backwards for Kelly and Kelly repaid Justin in spades winning 2 all stars on the way.

More I think about it Justin handled both Kelly and Flynn exceptionaly well and gave both players the special treatment they needed to get them right for big games.

The less experienced managers like Davy and now Ryan are trying to show everyone who's boss and that crap don't work with some players, Kelly being one.

Kelly got 1 all-star when justin was manager in 2002 when he was 19. In my opinion from then on he was left do what he liked and everything was too easy because his talent and youth made up for attitude. Maybe if Justin had disciplined him more in his younger years he wouldn't be in this position now, maybe even have another couple of all-stars.

Deise_Davy

ArtVandelay76 wrote: »

Kelly got 1 all-star when justin was manager in 2002 when he was 19. In my opinion from then on he was left do what he liked and everything was too easy because his talent and youth made up for attitude. Maybe if Justin had disciplined him more in his younger years he wouldn't be in this position now, maybe even have another couple of all-stars.

He actually won a second all star in 2008

phkk

As a few level headed people have said, I think too many people are jumping the gun, not one match has been played yet. I would urge people to give time to M Ryan, that's the least he deserves, even if he has had to make a few tough calls. For me,as a KK man, Eoin Kelly is a fantastic hurler but it's his application and attitude that are severely lacking...I've no doubt that he'll be back in the Waterford colours before the year is out. The manager is setting his stall out and I, for one admire him for that, much in the same manner as a young Brian Cody did in November 1998.
I remember people up here raising eyebrows with alot of his decisions in the first few years- he introduced some players onto the panel that had never hurled county minor e.g Martin Comerford, Eddie Brennan, Derek Lyng , John Mulhall to name a few. In fact, and many people find this hard to believe but Martin Comerford didn't start on the 1999 U-21winning team and Eddie Brennan hurled senior county championship before playing senior club championship, fact!
I saw the O'Gormans play both hurling and football and was very impressed with them. They're both very fast, tenacious and well able to read the game and no doubt with the intercounty hurling training required, both would have the application and determination to make the step up. I've maintained for a while here in Kilkenny that if you put most good club players into the county training set up, it can turn a good club hurler into an excellent club hurler through sheer intensity and exposure of top class standards. Again, it has happened with alot of the hurlers here who were on the panel for a period of time and became great county men.
Which would you prefer to have on your panel; a mercurial star who on his day could do anything with a ball but who doesn't want to put in the required effort or young players with the natural raw talent but with huge dedication and commitment?
Besides, whats the worst can happen? The O'Gormans don't make the step up and go back helping the footballers. I wish Michael Ryan all the best this year as a keen hurling observer/player

ArtVandelay76

He actually won a second all star in 2008[/Quote]

Justin wasn't manager then only for the Clare game and Kelly didn't play that day.

ArtVandelay76

He actually won a second all star in 2008[/Quote]

Justin wasn't manager then only for the Clare game and Kelly didn't play that day.

ArtVandelay76

He actually won a second all star in 2008[/Quote]

Justin wasn't manager then only for the Clare game and Kelly didn't play that day.

Funfair

deise_girl wrote: »

Isnt that part of the point? Eoin Kelly wasnt gonna be lasting 70mins...

Based on a bleep test a week after Christmas.. doubt Kelly was ever going to pass that one...

He was obviously set-up for the fall, same as Ken's treatment by Davy..

We'll have to listen to Ryan over the coming days telling us how it breaks his heart and how Kelly was a major part of his plans and he's a dissapointed as anyone not having him when the truth is he ousted him.

cute whore

Joan brophy

Just remember all stars one or two mean nothing, there is only one liam mc carthy. That should be the only focus

Mountainlad

Funfair wrote: »

Based on a bleep test a week after Christmas.. doubt Kelly was ever going to pass that one...

He was obviously set-up for the fall, same as Ken's treatment by Davy..

We'll have to listen to Ryan over the coming days telling us how it breaks his heart and how Kelly was a major part of his plans and he's a dissapointed as anyone not having him when the truth is he ousted him.

cute whore

A beep test? Who mentioned that?

There was more to it than that I'd imagine.

Also, Ken's knees were the reason he retired, he can hardly run. Great shame, but that's the way it is, you can't pin that on Davy.

Funfair

ArtVandelay76 wrote: »

He actually won a second all star in 2008

Justin wasn't manager then only for the Clare game and Kelly didn't play that day.[/QUOTE]

Enough said...

Glad you mentioned 2008 as he was the one reason we got to the Final.

He beat Offally and Wexford on his own that year also scored the goal that beat Tipp in the Semi Final.

suitcasepink

Funfair wrote: »

Based on a bleep test a week after Christmas.. doubt Kelly was ever going to pass that one...

He was obviously set-up for the fall, same as Ken's treatment by Davy..

We'll have to listen to Ryan over the coming days telling us how it breaks his heart and how Kelly was a major part of his plans and he's a dissapointed as anyone not having him when the truth is he ousted him.

cute whore

Was it based on those beep tests? I dunnooo
But like, he wasnt up to it this year at all either, anyone could see he didnt look very fit and it showed in his game. Even last year('10) bar the Cork game he wasnt great either, this shouldnt be a huge shock... If youre not putting in the effort, you dont get the rewards.
Plenty other players, older and younger, were able to pass the test, if he really wanted to, he would have been able too.

ArtVandelay76

Funfair wrote: »

ArtVandelay76 wrote: »

He actually won a second all star in 2008

Justin wasn't manager then only for the Clare game and Kelly didn't play that day.

Enough said...

Glad you mentioned 2008 as he was the one reason we got to the Final.

He beat Offally and Wexford on his own that year also scored the goal that beat Tipp in the Semi Final.[/Quote]

So Davy was the man to get the best out of kelly then????

Funfair

Mountainlad wrote: »

A beep test? Who mentioned that?

There was more to it than that I'd imagine.

Also, Ken's knees were the reason he retired, he can hardly run. Great shame, but that's the way it is, you can't pin that on Davy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-stage_fitness_test

Yes a bleep test is what they use to gauge fitness these days..

Ryan said the results he got back from Pat Flanagan (Physical Trainer) were dissapointing.. I presume he used a bleep test but could very well have used a breathaliser

There was a comman consencus doing the rounds that Davy ruined Ken with his training methods..

Mountainlad

Funfair wrote: »

Enough said...

Glad you mentioned 2008 as he was the one reason we got to the Final.

He beat Offally and Wexford on his own that year also scored the goal that beat Tipp in the Semi Final.

Mullane was the top scorer from play in the championship that year, think he had a say in it to be fair. Also, one goal against Tipp? He scored 1-10, mostly frees, but Ken McGrath and Kevin Moran were the standout players that day. Dan scored our goal against Wexford, does that mean he won it for us?

And 2008 is a distant memory. What about 2009, 10 and 11?

Funfair wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-stage_fitness_test

Yes a bleep test is what they use to gauge fitness these days..

Ryan said the results he got back from Pat Flanagan (Physical Trainer) were dissapointing.. I presume he used a bleep test but could very well have used a breathaliser

There was a comman consencus doing the rounds that Davy ruined Ken with his training methods..

I know what it is. I think there was more to it than that, if they even did use a beep test. A gym test was likely done as well, to test whether he was following what was given for him to do in his training programme.

I don't exactly know what you're getting at here. First you say he was ousted, and then you say ruined. I'm not a doctor so I dunno, but I think cartiledge problem like his was either there or not there, and not something Davy created, albeit he may have made it act quicker.

deise_girl wrote: »

Plenty other players, older and younger, were able to pass the test, if he really wanted to, he would have been able too.

And this is everything that needs to be said in one simple sentence.

Everyone else was given a target and they either made or didn't, I'm sure that was expressed to them. Kelly didn't, he shouldn't be treated any differently. End of.

Giveitfong

Funfair is actively rewriting history in his contributions on the topic of Eoin Kelly.


He says that “Justin mac bent over backwards for Kelly and Kelly repaid Justin in spades winning 2 all stars on the way”. Kelly’s second All-Star was won in 2008 when Davy Fitzgerald was in charge for all of the championship except the first round against Clare in which Kelly didn’t play. Kelly won his first All-Star in 2002 which was Justin McCarthy’s first year in charge. What about McCarthy’s subsequent five years in charge?


This brings me to Funfair’s earlier statement that “Ironically Justin had a reputation for having poor Man Management skills but always got the best out of Eoin Kelly”. This is pure myth. In all, Eoin Kelly played in 26 championship games (including qualifiers) for Waterford while McCarthy was in charge. Kelly did play well in some of these – I recall in particular the Munster final and All-Ireland semi-final in 2002, the first game against Limerick in 2003, the games against Clare and Cork in 2004, the Munster championship game against Cork in 2005 (his best in a Waterford shirt) and the qualifier game against Dublin later that year, the qualifier game against Galway in 2006 and the drawn All-Ireland quarter final against Cork in 2007.


However, he also had a few stinkers. He was substituted in the Munster final in 2003, was poor in the All-Ireland semi-final against Kilkenny in 2004, and was very poor in the All-Ireland quarter final against Cork in 2005 and both the quarter final against Tipperary and semi-final against Cork in 2006.


Overall, Kelly’s scoring rate from play (not counting frees) was quite modest. In the 26 championship games he played in under Justin McCarthy he scored a total of 3-45 for an average of 2.1 points per game. He failed to score from play in seven games and scored the equivalent of three points or more (including goals) in just eleven. Knowing Kelly’s abilities, you could hardly say on the basis of these figures that Justin McCarthy “always got the best out of Eoin Kelly”. These scoring statistics should also provide food for thought for those who argue that he should be in the team for his scoring ability alone.


Incidentally, John Mullane played in 27 championship games under Justin McCarthy (one more than Kelly) during which he scored 9-67 from play for a total of 94 points. This gives an average of 3.5 points per game, almost twice Kelly’s scoring rate from play. Mullane drew a blank in just three games and scored three points or more in 16.


Kelly did very well in his first year under Davy Fitzgerald, scoring 6-6 from play in five games for an average of 4.8 points per game (which earned him an All-Star). After that, things started to go pear-shaped. In 2009 he managed just seven points from play in five games and things didn’t improve much in 2010 with eight points from four games. Last year he came on as a late substitute against Limerick, didn’t play in the Munster final and was substituted in both the All-Ireland quarter final and semi final (in both of which he scored one point). However, in fairness to him he was one of the main victims of Davy Fitzgerald’s bizarre selection, placement and tactical decisions.


Meanwhile, John Mullane went from strength to strength, notching 6-55 for a total of 73 points in 18 championship games under Davy Fitz, for an average of 4.1 points per game. Not only has he been prolific but he has been consistently so. Not only did he score in every one of those 18 games, but he notched three points or more in fourteen of them. If Eoin Kelly had Mullane’s attitude and consistency, who knows what Waterford might have achieved in the last ten years.

Funfair

Giveitfong wrote: »

Funfair is actively rewriting history in his contributions on the topic of Eoin Kelly.


He says that “Justin mac bent over backwards for Kelly and Kelly repaid Justin in spades winning 2 all stars on the way”. Kelly’s second All-Star was won in 2008 when Davy Fitzgerald was in charge for all of the championship except the first round against Clare in which Kelly didn’t play. Kelly won his first All-Star in 2002 which was Justin McCarthy’s first year in charge. What about McCarthy’s subsequent five years in charge?


This brings me to Funfair’s earlier statement that “Ironically Justin had a reputation for having poor Man Management skills but always got the best out of Eoin Kelly”. This is pure myth. In all, Eoin Kelly played in 26 championship games (including qualifiers) for Waterford while McCarthy was in charge. Kelly did play well in some of these – I recall in particular the Munster final and All-Ireland semi-final in 2002, the first game against Limerick in 2003, the games against Clare and Cork in 2004, the Munster championship game against Cork in 2005 (his best in a Waterford shirt) and the qualifier game against Dublin later that year, the qualifier game against Galway in 2006 and the drawn All-Ireland quarter final against Cork in 2007.


However, he also had a few stinkers. He was substituted in the Munster final in 2003, was poor in the All-Ireland semi-final against Kilkenny in 2004, and was very poor in the All-Ireland quarter final against Cork in 2005 and both the quarter final against Tipperary and semi-final against Cork in 2006.


Overall, Kelly’s scoring rate from play (not counting frees) was quite modest. In the 26 championship games he played in under Justin McCarthy he scored a total of 3-45 for an average of 2.1 points per game. He failed to score from play in seven games and scored the equivalent of three points or more (including goals) in just eleven. Knowing Kelly’s abilities, you could hardly say on the basis of these figures that Justin McCarthy “always got the best out of Eoin Kelly”. These scoring statistics should also provide food for thought for those who argue that he should be in the team for his scoring ability alone.


Incidentally, John Mullane played in 27 championship games under Justin McCarthy (one more than Kelly) during which he scored 9-67 from play for a total of 94 points. This gives an average of 3.5 points per game, almost twice Kelly’s scoring rate from play. Mullane drew a blank in just three games and scored three points or more in 16.


Kelly did very well in his first year under Davy Fitzgerald, scoring 6-6 from play in five games for an average of 4.8 points per game (which earned him an All-Star). After that, things started to go pear-shaped. In 2009 he managed just seven points from play in five games and things didn’t improve much in 2010 with eight points from four games. Last year he came on as a late substitute against Limerick, didn’t play in the Munster final and was substituted in both the All-Ireland quarter final and semi final (in both of which he scored one point). However, in fairness to him he was one of the main victims of Davy Fitzgerald’s bizarre selection, placement and tactical decisions.


Meanwhile, John Mullane went from strength to strength, notching 6-55 for a total of 73 points in 18 championship games under Davy Fitz, for an average of 4.1 points per game. Not only has he been prolific but he has been consistently so. Not only did he score in every one of those 18 games, but he notched three points or more in fourteen of them. If Eoin Kelly had Mullane’s attitude and consistency, who knows what Waterford might have achieved in the last ten years.

Mullane works hard at his game and fair play to him.. your obviously a fan of his as you mentioned him more then Kelly in your stats report.

Kelly like I said earlier has natural talent and dosen't like the training but if you get his head right can be as good as anyone in the Country.

Ryan knows this and feels we can get on without kelly, I don't but hey he's the manager and he knows more then me so I'll respect that.

Hopefully this gets sorted fast and we don't have to find out the hard way if I was right or wrong...

Blueboy5195

Et Cetera wrote: »

They are simply not good enough, the sole reason they're being invited along is because they are clubmates. This sounds harsh but it's the reality.

I totally agree with Et cetera. I know for certain from close sources that seven Fourmilewater players are included in the squad. Don't know all the names but Shane Walsh, Liam Lawlor, Jamie Barron, Maurice and Thomas O'Gorman and Brian Wall were included. All footballers,only two were involved last year. Surely this is all because of Ryan?

Mountainlad

Funfair wrote: »

Mullane works hard at his game and fair play to him.. your obviously a fan of his as you mentioned him more then Kelly in your stats report.

Kelly like I said earlier has natural talent and dosen't like the training but if you get his head right can be as good as anyone in the Country.

Ryan knows this and feels we can get on without kelly, I don't but hey he's the manager and he knows more then me so I'll respect that.

Hopefully this gets sorted fast and we don't have to find out the hard way if I was right or wrong...

Don't get you on this one! If he knew this, as you say (I presume he told you, how else would you know), then do you not think he may be trying to get the best out of Kelly by getting him to have a look at himself and change his attitude?

Mountainlad

Blueboy5195 wrote: »

I totally agree with Et cetera. I know for certain from close sources that seven Fourmilewater players are included in the squad. Don't know all the names but Shane Walsh, Liam Lawlor, Jamie Barron, Maurice and Thomas O'Gorman and Brian Wall were included. All footballers,only two were involved last year. Surely this is all because of Ryan?

Wrong! There are six! And I don't think Nicky Cashin and Br Ryan and indeed Flanagan are just there for the craic, I'd imagine they would have contested these decisions if they felt he was showing far too much bias towards his own. But maybe they decided they were worth a try, and were impressed by these players in training!

By the way, Brian Wall wasn't included, but he did play for Waterford in 2004, and he played u21 and minor (in both codes I think).

All footballers you say? Sure, just like Shane Walsh, who scored 1-5 in the recent all-star match, 3-13 in the league, got nominated for an all-star for Waterford this year, and outside of Mullane is really our only other scoring threat up front at the moment. He's had his fair amount of criticism over the last few years, and was re-introduced into the Waterford team at the same age as the O'Gorman twins I think (maybe a year younger).

Blueboy5195

Mountainlad wrote: »

Wrong! There are six! And I don't think Nicky Cashin and Br Ryan and indeed Flanagan are just there for the craic, I'd imagine they would have contested these decisions if they felt he was showing far too much bias towards his own. But maybe they decided they were worth a try, and were impressed by these players in training!

By the way, Brian Wall wasn't included, but he did play for Waterford in 2004, and he played u21 and minor (in both codes I think).

All footballers you say? Sure, just like Shane Walsh, who scored 1-5 in the recent all-star match, 3-13 in the league, got nominated for an all-star for Waterford this year, and outside of Mullane is really our only other scoring threat up front at the moment. He's had his fair amount of criticism over the last few years, and was re-introduced into the Waterford team at the same age as the O'Gorman twins I think (maybe a year younger).

Fair enough, thats your opinion. I agree Shane is key for us but surely you agree the O'Gormans would be of more benefit to the footballers than the hurlers?

Mountainlad

Blueboy5195 wrote: »

Fair enough, thats your opinion. I agree Shane is key for us but surely you agree the O'Gormans would be of more benefit to the footballers than the hurlers?

Sorry if I came across a bit strong, but there's too much being made of this! All clubs will be represented fairly according to the quality of the players they have, and the bottom line is the players on the pnale don't matter until at the very least we come to the start of the league when only 26 players can be named for any match! In previous years players that weren't good enough were given a chance, and no fuss made about it because Fitz had no club allegiance. Point is they deserve a chance, and they might suprise a few people here.

They are top class footballers and a huge loss to the footballers, but they don't have a contract with the footballers and are free to do as they wish. As for your question, I don't know really. I think they're both good hurlers, who've performed well for their club, and have done so while commiting to the football team meaning for a good portion of the year they wouldn't even be doing any hurling with a team, which has to be admired I feel. The regular training at such a high level could bring them on even further and they could vindicate Michael Ryan's decision.

Any player that comes into a team and is better than what was previously had is a welcome addition, so the answer to your question really is that they may improve either side. The ultimate ambition for any team is to win every game they play, and to do that you want the best available players. Brick and Shane Walsh would be huge additions to the football team if they were to choose to play it, but they'd be a loss to the hurlers as well. There's two sides to it.

gammon_steak

I'm sick of reading about how the O'Gormans should stick to football as they would be a big loss to the footballers. The main priority of GAA in Waterford is our hurling team and it's our only chance of proper success. If the lads are good enough for the hurling panel then so be it and why wouldn't or shouldn't they be involved? Football is number 2 and that's the way it is.

noiniho

It is very insulting to fourmilewater, alot of people on here disregarding them as just a football club, saying they should stick to the football.

Have any of you been watching the club championship the last few years? Aside from what is now the big two of Ballygunner and De La Salle, Fourmile are up there witht he best of the rest, if not the best of the rest, they have been desperately unlucky in close games over the last 3-4 years, no other team in the county likes playing them and they are a very good hurling team/club!! They are not just a football team.

does their present standing in the club championship make them deserving of having a ~10% representation on a panel of 50? of course it does.

The O Gorman twins selection is the one raising the most dispute, I have seen this up close but if you put either of those two lads up against any other member of that panel in a competitive match they will know they are after a game and I have seen them come out on top of other inter county players in club games over the last few years. It struck me that you always get more then you expect when watching them and theat means that they are actually better then they are giving credit for.

all this b!tching and moaning already, these players ye are all so worried about mightnt even be next or near the panel come the league matches....
and lets just say that all that tossing and turning, those sleepness nights are justified and your worse dreams come true, they are actually on the league and god forbid get a game, how about.... WE GIVE THEM A F*CKING CHANCE!!! then if things dont work out go crazy and form that angry mob, they are headed towards the old mill etc.

As for the Eoin Kelly situation, lets face it he is difficult to manage, if he wasnt he would still be wearing a Mt. Sion jersey, it sounds to me like he wasnt up for the hard early season training, he probably got away with a stunt like this before, but ryan was brave enough to say it is not good enough, I dont know how they were tracking fitness but taking body fat % and calculating mean muscle mass etc probabaly had something to do with it, Eoin Kelly would have got through any other type of fitness tests but there is no hiding place from a skinfold test either you have the work done or you havent.

hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard

espeically when you start to head towards the 30 yrs of age mark

chinguetti

Give me a guy every time who'll stick his head into a place where you'ld be afraid to to win a tough ball who mightn't be the most naturally talented guy than a player who can dazzle when you're 10 points up but is nowhere to be seen when you're struggling.

Why not give them a chance, what harm can it do in January? People give out when people are tried and then give out when people aren't tried. Some people are never happy. Trawl the county for guys and invite clubs to send along any decent player they have to trials.

Also don't know what test they use nowadays but i'm told by my physio (i do a fair bit of running) that the bleep test ain't the cutting edge test anymore. Best training for a GAA player running wise is 800 metres style training plan.

enoughtaken

By the way, Brian Wall wasn't included, but he did play for Waterford in 2004, and he played u21 and minor (in both codes I think).

.[/QUOTE]

Brian Wall has played both football and hurling for Waterford at Minor, U21, Junior/Intermediate and Senior

STIG83

Pity about Eoin Kelly, if he copped on and kept head down, he would have achieved a lot. His goal in the Munster Final 04 was class.

Psychedelic

Funfair wrote: »

Kelly like I said earlier has natural talent and dosen't like the training but if you get his head right can be as good as anyone in the Country.

How about Kelly gets his own head right? Sounds to me like the management are trying to be supportive but if he refuses to even meet them then there's no hope for him.

"The results of that test were disappointing, to be honest about it. I then contacted Eoin and I said to him that we were going to invite him to join the panel for the month of January and see would that make any difference, on one condition that he came in and met us.

"He refused to meet us and I said to him very specifically: 'Eoin, do you realise by not meeting us the consequences of your decision?'

"He said: 'I do'. I said: 'Okay, will you think about that overnight and I'll come back and talk to you tomorrow.' So I rang him again the following day and again, Eoin said that he hadn't changed his mind. That was exactly as he felt.

http://hoganstand.com/Waterford/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=159879

Et Cetera

STIG83 wrote: »

Pity about Eoin Kelly, if he copped on and kept head down, he would have achieved a lot. His goal in the Munster Final 04 was class.

That was a long time ago, and he's a shadow of that talent now. He's lazy and by all accounts generally a disruptive influence. I'm pretty critical of Ryan, but I think fair play to him for having the balls to do what's right.

WHEN was the last time Kelly consistently performed? that's the only question that matters.

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

You're pursuing a personal vendetta here, I can't help but feel. Would you like to name to those 50 players seen as you said you could?

There is no personal vendetta here, actually I retract my statement I could name 150 better hurlers not on the panel. Im not going to even start naming names basically most players from the county minor/u21 players over the last 4 years.
But if you can honestly tell me that the 2 O'Gorman's, both going on 27 years of age, having never represented the county in hurling at any grade before would be on the panel had the manager not been a fellow clubman then fair play. I mean not one but 2 of them? It stinks as far as Im concerned and Id question whether ryan is even able to tell the difference between the 2

Regarding Kelly, I think the problem is that he used to get away with not training hard because he was such a natural athelete and his natural fitness got him through. Now hes a bit older its harder to get the fitness up and hes just not willing to push himself hard enough to get up to the required level. I think he wants to be there on the big stage during the summer but not willing to work for it during the winter months. Thats why curtains for him imo

mccarthy37

enoughtaken wrote: »

By the way, Brian Wall wasn't included, but he did play for Waterford in 2004, and he played u21 and minor (in both codes I think).

.

Brian Wall has played both football and hurling for Waterford at Minor, U21, Junior/Intermediate and Senior[/QUOTE]

Ill never forget the year he came on for Tony Browne against Tipp he was just as good and that's some compliment to the man. Fourmilewater have made real progress in hurling the last few years so I say give the OGormans a chance. Brick, Shane Walsh and the Prendergasts have done very well for us so who knows, its only trials at the moment lets wait and see.

calvin_zola

is Brian wall invited to the trials? def should have had more to do with the hurlers in 05/06/07

The blue blaa

Ballyduff Lower seem to be after losing a few of their stronger lads this year. Jack Kennedy is going to De La Salle, John O'Leary is going to Mount Sion. Dunhill got one of their players aswell i'm told an i think 1 or 2 might be retiring aswell.
I'd worry for them in the intermediate this year, rumour have it they had a vote about going down into junior but the players left there decided to stay intermediate. It's a pity to see a club like them struggle like this but i hope they'l soldier on.

Mountainlad

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

There is no personal vendetta here, actually I retract my statement I could name 150 better hurlers not on the panel. Im not going to even start naming names basically most players from the county minor/u21 players over the last 4 years.
But if you can honestly tell me that the 2 O'Gorman's, both going on 27 years of age, having never represented the county in hurling at any grade before would be on the panel had the manager not been a fellow clubman then fair play. I mean not one but 2 of them? It stinks as far as Im concerned and Id question whether ryan is even able to tell the difference between the 2

Woah, now I'm convinced :rolleyes:

Sure why not make it 250 while we're at it, that's an even bigger number.

I'm sure he can't when they are standing side by side, but given they both wear different colour helmets when hurling I'm sure he can

What I find funny though is I'm quite sure you've no idea who they were trying this time last year, or else you wouldn't be pursuing this at all. Fact is loads of players are tried out this time of year, so it's nothing new really. I'm sure they are looking at all players that deserve to be looked at. Call that naive if you want but I don't think so.

As a matter of interest though, how many times did you see Maurice and Thomas O'Gorman play last year? Can you tell me what colour helmets they wear? And what games were you at?

phkk

Mountainlad wrote: »

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

There is no personal vendetta here, actually I retract my statement I could name 150 better hurlers not on the panel. Im not going to even start naming names basically most players from the county minor/u21 players over the last 4 years.
But if you can honestly tell me that the 2 O'Gorman's, both going on 27 years of age, having never represented the county in hurling at any grade before would be on the panel had the manager not been a fellow clubman then fair play. I mean not one but 2 of them? It stinks as far as Im concerned and Id question whether ryan is even able to tell the difference between the 2

Woah, now I'm convinced :rolleyes:

Sure why not make it 250 while we're at it, that's an even bigger number.

I'm sure he can't when they are standing side by side, but given they both wear different colour helmets when hurling I'm sure he can

What I find funny though is I'm quite sure you've no idea who they were trying this time last year, or else you wouldn't be pursuing this at all. Fact is loads of players are tried out this time of year, so it's nothing new really. I'm sure they are looking at all players that deserve to be looked at. Call that naive if you want but I don't think so.

As a matter of interest though, how many times did you see Maurice and Thomas O'Gorman play last year? Can you tell me what colour helmets they wear? And what games were you at?

Well said Mountanlad- if he can name 150 better hurlers than the O'Gormans, then I've no doubt but Waterford will not only win this years All-Ireland but the next 5!!

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

Woah, now I'm convinced :rolleyes:

Sure why not make it 250 while we're at it, that's an even bigger number.

I'm sure he can't when they are standing side by side, but given they both wear different colour helmets when hurling I'm sure he can

What I find funny though is I'm quite sure you've no idea who they were trying this time last year, or else you wouldn't be pursuing this at all. Fact is loads of players are tried out this time of year, so it's nothing new really. I'm sure they are looking at all players that deserve to be looked at. Call that naive if you want but I don't think so.

As a matter of interest though, how many times did you see Maurice and Thomas O'Gorman play last year? Can you tell me what colour helmets they wear? And what games were you at?

No I dont know what colour helmets they wear and I didnt see FMW last year as I was away but I know the lads well from playing against them many times. Im the same age as them so would have seen them first hand through the years since underage level. I know what their about you wont meet tougher lads out on the field and nicer lads off it.
They are both fine footballers and to be fair they were late developers (didnt make the co. minor panel on their last year minor and there was a Nire man in charge!)

imo Maurice a good bit better hurler than Tom and I think scully called both of them up because he didnt know which was which. hence my comment about not knowing the difference. Anyway Im not going to slag anyone else off especially to a fellow parishioner such as urself:D

Black Suir

alllcounty wrote: »

The problem with a motion been put forward is it never gets a fair hearing. The same rhetoric is put forward every time a request for reform is made. They say look at the divisional finals and the excitement it generates among supports and players, why should we change this. The divisional finals may have excitement but the quality is severally lacking. This is not a good enough reason to maintain the division of our county at this level. The teams that got to the divisional finals may have played 4 or 5 very average and at times poor quality games to get there. Too many teams at different levels of standard brings down the overall quality. Again when the request for change comes, clubs will have been warned in advance by divisional board officials to say no. Improvements at this level will not have been given a fair chance given the continuous nay say of certain board members who say this is the way it always has been done so it must be right.

The biggest problem in the county is the standard of delegates that clubs send to county board meetings. Some of the delegates spend more time outside the door or in the jacks smoking than they do in the room where the meeting is held. And those that are in at the meeting, some of them are very set in their ways. They see the officers like people in the past saw the local priest, doctor, teacher and Post master. If they said something they are always right and they go along with it. Its the same at a county board meeting. An officer says something and the delegates go along with it without questioning them. And if there is questions asked the answer given is often a political one and again few if any questions it.

Black Suir

Et Cetera wrote: »

This is a disgrace, they aren't near good enough. What a blow.

Thomas could be the answer to our problems at full back. He may not be the most stylish of hurlers but he sure is effective.

Black Suir

Deise_Davy wrote: »

He actually won a second all star in 2008

The year Justin dropped him and when Davy brought him back and he had a point to prove.

Black Suir

Deise_Davy wrote: »

He actually won a second all star in 2008

The year justin dropped him and when Davy brought him back he had a point to prove.

Black Suir

To those that say that the o'Gormans should stay with the footballers, what about

Brick Walsh, Shane Walsh, Seamus and Declan Prendergast, Clinton Hennessy, Gary Hurney, Liam Lawlor etc that have played hurling for Waterford in recent years. Should these lads have stuck to the game as well or were the likes of Gerald, Justin and Davy right to give them a go at trying to stake a place on not just the hurling panel but starting team. How are we to know if a player is good enough if we dont give them a fair crack of the whip.

deisebhoy17

Black Suir wrote: »

To those that say that the o'Gormans should stay with the footballers, what about

Brick Walsh, Shane Walsh, Seamus and Declan Prendergast, Clinton Hennessy, Gary Hurney, Liam Lawlor etc that have played hurling for Waterford in recent years. Should these lads have stuck to the game as well or were the likes of Gerald, Justin and Davy right to give them a go at trying to stake a place on not just the hurling panel but starting team. How are we to know if a player is good enough if we dont give them a fair crack of the whip.

You have no argument here. Brick & Shane Walsh were always talented young hurlers who showed promise at minor & u21 level. as with seamus pender, all just happened to be excellent footballers aswell. Declan maybe more of a late developer but he was till 20/21 years old when first on the panel. Liam Lawlor was an outstanding hurler at underage level but didnt really make it under Justin and tbf to Davy he brought him back and hes done well.
And as for Gary Hurney well yes he was right to go back to the big ball. As for Clinton Hennessy as far as I know he was never even called onto a Waterford football panel so i dont know what ur talking about here.

The bottom line is that decent club hurlers the o'gormans maybe but have no experience of that level of hurling and would be nowhere near that class. Its nothing other than favourtism by ryan to lads from his own club and he dogs on the street would tell u that

toggingout

First Thing first is that I have no problem with the O'Gormans been called into the squad because I don't know what kind of hurlers they are. One thing is for sure is that they are very talented footballers.

This discussion though does highlight a major issue with regards to our county teams at all levels and club favourtism. How many times does someone get called into a county team and the three selectors will have at least 4-5 players from there clubs on the panel. When it comes to the starting 15 some players are just pissing against the wind trying to earn a starting place because club loyalty comes first. It was going on 15 years ago and it still goes on today. It probably happens a lot more at underage level and all it does is frustrate a number of talented younger lads who either give up altogether or turn down any future call ups.

I'm sure it goes on in all counties and I don't know how it can be solved but it needs to be addresses if our county teams are going to be successful at underage

PTH2009

Id be more concerned if the full starting 15 of Fourmilewater were on the Waterford Squad for 2012.

Anyone here about any matches this weekend ?? I knw the footballers are playing tomorrow at 2pm in WIT.

doublejj

not good enough,end of story..............tough lads great footballers hurlers,good but not good enough..............

deisedude

F*ck sake lads. The two of them are in a squad of 50, not the first 15. they haven't even swung a hurl in anger yet. Would you give them a f*cking chance? I'd say half of ye have never even seen them play

Black Suir

deisedude wrote: »

F*ck sake lads. The two of them are in a squad of 50, not the first 15. they haven't even swung a hurl in anger yet. Would you give them a f*cking chance? I'd say half of ye have never even seen them play

I agree with you. And if they do make the final panel, you wont find two players that will show more committment. If every team had 15 stylish hurlers in it you would win nothing. You need players as well that will put there body where others wont, the likes of Peter Queally of past years

doublejj

seen them loads of times.......if they played with say dunhill for instance or roanmore would not be in squad.....

Mountainlad

doublejj wrote: »

seen them loads of times.......if they played with say dunhill for instance or roanmore would not be in squad.....

They don't though, and they are in the squad, so give them a chance at least please.

doublejj

my point exactly.........mountainlad have nothing against the two boys,just thats my opinion having played against them and watched them..................tough boys i give anyone a chance no problem,just irks me a bit.......like i said no ffence to the twolads