Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

Mr Tibbs

Although we lost I'm glad I traveled down to Walsh Park. It was a fabolous evening. It could have been in Spain. Got a great laugh when it was announced over the tannoy attendance 2,200. You could add another 1,000 to that figure and with no tickets somebody went home rich tonight. To be honest I went down in the belief that we could get a win here, we have some very nice player's to come from this team maybe with better management we might do better next year.

Waternut

How did Bourke play? Candidate for the future full back position?

seananigans

I think,as a county we need to stop talking about next year,we have so much going on about ,now is the timeframe we need to be looking at .

As for the seniors ,they deserve respect for such a valiant fight against our neighbours behind the north wall.

I dunno im conflicted , 2-3 years ago i accepted we were in transition ,but i think the excuses need to be put away after this year

Deise_2012

Waternut wrote: »

How did Bourke play? Candidate for the future full back position?

Played well, was well protected by kieran power in the sweeper role also but looks like a super talent. I still prefer seeing him in the half back line though, reminds me of darragh fives similiar type player. Will be brought onto the senior panel in the next year or 2, maybe a year for the intermediates wouldn't do any harm

shoddy14

The lack of threat in the full forward line is becoming akin to the full back position of the 00's which prevented us from going any further. It has been disheartening to see kilkenny/Clare full back lines mopping up ball after ball with ease in the last week, However the performance of the minor full forward line to date offers hope as they seem to always win their fair share of possession and have cause trouble to all the teams they have played. Until we find scoring forwards we won't be able to consistenly compete with the big guns

Deise_2012

shoddy14 wrote: »

The lack of threat in the full forward line is becoming akin to the full back position of the 00's which prevented us from going any further. It has been disheartening to see kilkenny/Clare full back lines mopping up ball after ball with ease in the last week, However the performance of the minor full forward line to date offers hope as they seem to always win their fair share of possession and have cause trouble to all the teams they have played. Until we find scoring forwards we won't be able to consistenly compete with the big guns

calm down, it was our most inexperienced forward line with god knows how many years! both management and players will learn from this season, there's a lot of players to make the return next season too, don't be writing them off yet

Horseboxhead

we were not set up to get goals to night, we started with a two man full forward line, and then we went to one, we had at one stage 4 players out around the middle, but unfortunatly the space it was supposed to create, was covered by clare just adapting better to what we were trying to do , waterford selectors overthought this tonight, sending off was vital, but you have to have a structure players understand, and clearly in the second half our half forward line disappeared,our midfield and half backs had no outlet other than Eamonn murphys selfless running which he was rewarded for by being taken off, just could not fathom it.
On a side note what about Limericks statements that waterford were showboating on sunday, on the sideline and on the field, seems to have got them riled up, as if they need it, limerick are always physical anyway, plus heard a strange romour, our backs were told to push up last sunday when we were 8 points up, to close the game down, and look what happened, if true, we are lucky we are producing players as our managemant is gone to the dogs.

noiniho

The reason the full forward line didnt win a ball is because we played a two man full forward line for nearly all of the game (it is hard to see the positioning telly so I dont know if we reverted to this after Clares 3 early points or if we did it fromt he start), even when we had the slight breeze in the first half, frustratingly we still lumped a few balls into our out numbered full forward line. with this system you are bascially relying on a free taker for scores and to come through in a low scoring game, kinda like Clare themselves used to do some years ago with Seanie McMahon scoring from all distances and angles and a reliable freetaker up front. One thing you are not going to do is get goals. This system for a whole game brings serious pressure on your backs, as the ball is coming back as soon as its cleared and the best hope you have is if the third midfielder/ sweeper you bring back creates havoc int he middle of the field and the oppositon have to wirhdraw a player back there themselves to deal with him, which didnt happen
Amazingly, on a few occasions, the Clare Full back line actually ran into trouble after picking up ball unopposed and even after short puck outs and we got a few scores from this. Dillon kept up his end of the baragin and even from open play he takes his strikes so early and is so accurate he must be a nightmare to mark, cant take your eyes off him second, no messing he just takes the strike and invariably it is between the posts. Breatnach also did his bit to keep us in it with his strength in the air, driving forward and picking off a few points.
The second half was more of th same until the sending off, it was desrved, I know a sending off is always going to be a factor but I thought that it mightnt actually make much difference to us as instead of having two man full forward line who couldnt win a ball it would be a one man full forward line who wouldnt win a ball. one thing you are not going to get with this system is goals and when Clare got theres we were goosed.
The lads battled bravely until the end, as they did all through, I thinl it is a pity we went with a withdrawn corner forward, espeically int he first half, the backs did well all through even with fourteen men, even when inviting some pressure on themselves, I think they could have held there own man to man with the Clare forwards, who lets face it were mis-firing to a large degree last night. in the first half I would have like to see Breathnach in full forward with two pacy corner forwards in there with them.
Inthe end we needed goals, without a full forward line you aint going to get them... Shame really, the better team won int he end put they were there for the taking last night and that game was anyones. if we went for it more in the first half we coul have had a serious rattle of them

Royal Legend

Tactically, I thought we were poor tonight. You could also argue about the placing of the team as the selectors seemed to be more worried as to Clare's strengths than playing to ours. Considering Ray Barry playing at half back after scoring 1-3 against Kilkenny? Why were the last two frees knocked over the bar? They both occurred in the last couple of minutes, 5/6 points down, you could see Jake asking the bench whether to put it over or drop it in, did Queally think it was a 70 minute game? The last couple of minutes petered out as if we were resigned to losing.
Clare IMO were the better team overall, but they got two soft goals to win it as well.

carter10

I wouldn't mind any statements by Limerick, great men to talk when they're winning, remember Richie Bennis at it in 07.

robopaddy

I think we are over analysing things, the sending off was what absolutely killed us, after that we played with effectively 4 forwards as we were playing a 2 man full forward line anyway. 4 into 6 dosent go. As soon as the foul occurred I was praying for a few seconds 'please let it be Donie Breathnach' because he also wears a yellow helmet and I knew PP was on a yellow card and it was hard to say from where we were which one it was

Up until then youd have to say things were going well. We were winning, our backs were well on top and while we were depending heavily on Jake Dillon for scores we were still outscoring them. I thought when Tony Kelly went off early (hope hes ok) and we went in at half time with our tails up that this could well be our night as Clare werent going great and as some one else alluded to seemed to show signs of fear after Kelly went off. I think the sending off gave them the belief back and from then on there was only going to be one winner. Lets not forget we were still ahead with less than 15 mins left on the clock but it was inevitable the extra man was going to take take its toll especially in that punishing heat.

blaming management seems to be our answer to everything down here in Waterford the usual slaying going on here. I think Peter Queally has a fantastic job done with these lads we had the all Ireland champions on the back foot for 40 to 45 mins and after the awful hammering we took last year off the same opposition you have to say there has been progress

Royal Legend

robopaddy wrote: »

I think we are over analysing things, the sending off was what absolutely killed us, after that we played with effectively 4 forwards as we were playing a 2 man full forward line anyway. 4 into 6 dosent go. As soon as the foul occurred I was praying for a few seconds 'please let it be Donie Breathnach' because he also wears a yellow helmet and I knew PP was on a yellow card and it was hard to say from where we were which one it was

Up until then youd have to say things were going well. We were winning, our backs were well on top and while we were depending heavily on Jake Dillon for scores we were still outscoring them. I thought when Tony Kelly went off early (hope hes ok) and we went in at half time with our tails up that this could well be our night as Clare werent going great and as some one else alluded to seemed to show signs of fear after Kelly went off. I think the sending off gave them the belief back and from then on there was only going to be one winner. Lets not forget we were still ahead with less than 15 mins left on the clock but it was inevitable the extra man was going to take take its toll especially in that punishing heat.

blaming management seems to be our answer to everything down here in Waterford the usual slaying going on here. I think Peter Queally has a fantastic job done with these lads we had the all Ireland champions on the back foot for 40 to 45 mins and after the awful hammering we took last year off the same opposition you have to say there has been progress

first of all, I don't make a habit of blaming management, Secondly Clare we AI U21 Champions "last year". Different teams this year, it is not comparing like with like. Thirdly, I cannot understand either giving teams too much respect or playing one of our on form scoring forwards as a half back and finally, why did the management team give the nod for Jake to go for a point, 2 mins left on the clock and 5 points down. I am seriously questioning did the management make a mistake as regards the time left? Even Paudie knocked over a free in the last minute or so, it was as if we had given up? I think they are fair points to make and questions to ask.

fricatus

Royal Legend wrote: »

Why were the last two frees knocked over the bar? They both occurred in the last couple of minutes, 5/6 points down, you could see Jake asking the bench whether to put it over or drop it in, did Queally think it was a 70 minute game?

Royal Legend wrote: »

and finally, why did the management team give the nod for Jake to go for a point, 2 mins left on the clock and 5 points down.

Jake* was right in front of me and I clearly saw him asking those questions all right... I was wondering about it myself, and the only thing I can think is that the management wanted to get within three points and then hopefully get lucky with a scrambled goal. There were still about 4 minutes plus stoppage time to go IIRC.

In fairness, if he'd gone for goal three times and failed, we'd be berating the team for passing up three sure points.


* He's some hurler all the same, isn't he?

noiniho

robopaddy wrote: »

I think we are over analysing things, the sending off was what absolutely killed us, after that we played with effectively 4 forwards as we were playing a 2 man full forward line anyway. 4 into 6 dosent go. As soon as the foul occurred I was praying for a few seconds 'please let it be Donie Breathnach' because he also wears a yellow helmet and I knew PP was on a yellow card and it was hard to say from where we were which one it was

Up until then youd have to say things were going well. We were winning, our backs were well on top and while we were depending heavily on Jake Dillon for scores we were still outscoring them. I thought when Tony Kelly went off early (hope hes ok) and we went in at half time with our tails up that this could well be our night as Clare werent going great and as some one else alluded to seemed to show signs of fear after Kelly went off. I think the sending off gave them the belief back and from then on there was only going to be one winner. Lets not forget we were still ahead with less than 15 mins left on the clock but it was inevitable the extra man was going to take take its toll especially in that punishing heat.

blaming management seems to be our answer to everything down here in Waterford the usual slaying going on here. I think Peter Queally has a fantastic job done with these lads we had the all Ireland champions on the back foot for 40 to 45 mins and after the awful hammering we took last year off the same opposition you have to say there has been progress

I thought Clare were the better team and deserving winners, management of every team are not above criticism, Waterford went in to that game last night afraid of their lives of Clare which was totally evident by the way we set up. it is like the management were saying from the start of the game 'there is no way the hammering that happened last year is happening on my watch' as the game played out if the approach was to go out and win the game, espeically in the first half, I think the game was there for the taking.

Basically we were too negative because of fear on the line, we showed them too much respect with our tactics. Watching the game I think our backs and midfield were strong enough to hold their own in an orthodox line up... this was an oppurtunity missed. We were outscoring them even with containment tactics, which is unusual because it normally turns out that the team with the witdrawn forward will be happy to be with in three points of the opposition until the final stages, we managed to be ahead i would say in spite of the tactics not because of them.

robopaddy

Royal Legend wrote: »

first of all, I don't make a habit of blaming management, Secondly Clare we AI U21 Champions "last year". Different teams this year, it is not comparing like with like. Thirdly, I cannot understand either giving teams too much respect or playing one of our on form scoring forwards as a half back and finally, why did the management team give the nod for Jake to go for a point, 2 mins left on the clock and 5 points down. I am seriously questioning did the management make a mistake as regards the time left? Even Paudie knocked over a free in the last minute or so, it was as if we had given up? I think they are fair points to make and questions to ask.

I would have said dont panic take the points aswell. there was still a few minutes left to play. If we kept knocking over the points and got within a goal in the last minute then we could throw off the shackles and just go for a goal. But there was no point in keep dropping that ball in around the square as it was just going to come straight back out.

I have no doubt in my mind that Peter Queally realised it was 60 minute game and not 70 minute. He wasnt just some fellah picked up on the side of the road below at Carroll's Cross before the match

Royal Legend

robopaddy wrote: »

I would have said dont panic take the points aswell. there was still a few minutes left to play. If we kept knocking over the points and got within a goal in the last minute then we could throw off the shackles and just go for a goal. But there was no point in keep dropping that ball in around the square as it was just going to come straight back out.

I have no doubt in my mind that Peter Queally realised it was 60 minute game and not 70 minute. He wasnt just some fellah picked up on the side of the road below at Carroll's Cross before the match

It was in the 59th minute with no notion of how long was going to be played as injury time, 5 points down? surely you go for goal?
As regards tactics, we set ourselves up not to lose as we were fearful of them. This is the second time in a week that I think we lost a match we could have won, if management had made the right decisions. In saying that, everyone makes mistakes and hindsight is great. Hopefully, management of both teams is abject enough to learn not to repeat these errors. IMO Kilkenny won last Saturday because they knew how to and we did not.

Hidalgo

Royal Legend wrote: »

It was in the 59th minute with no notion of how long was going to be played as injury time, 5 points down? surely you go for goal?
As regards tactics, we set ourselves up not to lose as we were fearful of them. This is the second time in a week that I think we lost a match we could have won, if management had made the right decisions. In saying that, everyone makes mistakes and hindsight is great. Hopefully, management of both teams is abject enough to learn not to repeat these errors. IMO Kilkenny won last Saturday because they knew how to and we did not.

That's not just management, that's years of doing it. Time and time again they've been under the cosh and came out the right side. Doing so breeds self confidence amongst players as they draw on past experiences to get over the line

garv123

For the last point jake tapped over from the free I was sitting in the stand between him and management..
jake kept looking back and shouting and not once did anyone answer him or even gesture anything to him and he turned around and hit it over when he got no answer.

The last free, jake didnt take it because he was heading into the edge of the square and the free taker ended up over hitting it by the looks of things.

Also people blaming tactics.. Are ye forgetting we were 3 points up before the sending off? That sounds like tactics were working well enough for us. When we lost the sweeper was when things went tits up.. Waterford were still in control till the sending off

robopaddy

Royal Legend wrote: »

IMO Kilkenny won last Saturday because they knew how to and we did not.

Or because they had scoring forwards we didnt. It was a midfielder Kevin Moran who single handedly clawed us back to level par in the dying moments with 2 outrageous points from midfield. we had no right to bring that game to extra time really considering how little change our forwards were getting and the wides we had

Mr Tibbs

Paudi Penders first yellow was hard to believe as there were about six players in a scuffle on the sideline that Clare seemed to disagree with. Row over Paudi was singled out but still got the sideline decision how strange was that. Surely if a foul had been that serious to warrant a yellow card you'd think the ref would have decided on a throw ball. I was a bit away from the scuffle but I saw plenty of hurley's being used as weapons. As was said by Mountainlad Eamon Murphy through on goal when he recieved a full frontal challenge not too disimilar to what Paudi committed and not even a warning in that case.

Royal Legend

the standard of refereeing in general is poor. The guy last week in the wex/kilk game was clueless as well, nobody knew what he was going to pull or not pull for. bring back Mickey Wadding, all is forgiven

noiniho

garv123 wrote: »

For the last point jake tapped over from the free I was sitting in the stand between him and management..
jake kept looking back and shouting and not once did anyone answer him or even gesture anything to him and he turned around and hit it over when he got no answer.

The last free, jake didnt take it because he was heading into the edge of the square and the free taker ended up over hitting it by the looks of things.

Also people blaming tactics.. Are ye forgetting we were 3 points up before the sending off? That sounds like tactics were working well enough for us. When we lost the sweeper was when things went tits up.. Waterford were still in control till the sending off

I hate playing with a third midfielder or a seventh defender in hurling, to me the only reason to do it is;

Against the wind
- Damage limitation, against a stronger team who are getting a run on you.

From the start of the game regardless of conditions
- Against a vastly superior team that you afraid you are going to get absolutely hockeyed by.

The gane last night in my opinion didnt warrent those tactics, considering the talent we had at our disposal, we worried too much about them and not ourselves.
Being three points up after 45 mins didnt justify the tactics either

We were playing at home, with the wind for the first 30 minutes, we should have went at them for all we were worth and been six points up at half time... instead we drew everyone back and drew them on us, it was the act of a manger that didnt have confidence in his team

Royal Legend

noiniho wrote: »

I hate playing with a third midfielder or a seventh defender in hurling, to me the only reason to do it is;

Against the wind
- Damage limitation, against a stronger team who are getting a run on you.

From the start of the game regardless of conditions
- Against a vastly superior team that you afraid you are going to get absolutely hockeyed by.

The gane last night in my opinion didnt warrent those tactics, considering the talent we had at our disposal, we worried too much about them and not ourselves.
Being three points up after 45 mins didnt justify the tactics either

We were playing at home, with the wind for the first 30 minutes, we should have went at them for all we were worth and been six points up at half time... instead we drew everyone back and drew them on us, it was the act of a manger that didnt have confidence in his team

Thank you, my point exactly. We have the talent to beat most teams, why do we act as if we are inferior? They were AI u21 champions last year, different teams were playing last night. the big threat was Kelly and he went off injured.
Anyway, that's another season gone.

premierstone

Royal Legend wrote: »

first of all, I don't make a habit of blaming management, Secondly Clare we AI U21 Champions "last year". Different teams this year, it is not comparing like with like.

They had 9 of last years team still available together with members of the 2010 AI Minor runners up (should really have won) so this Clare team is just as strong as last years.

Royal Legend

premierstone wrote: »

They had 9 of last years team still available together with members of the 2010 AI Minor runners up (should really have won) so this Clare team is just as strong as last years.

And the Waterford panel was just as strong, even though Paudie Mahony was not 100% and Gavin O'Brien is still out. The bulk of this squad competed from u14 upwards as does the follow on for the next two years. Aim for the sky and you might hit the ceiling, aim for the ceiling....

Deise_2012

At the end of the day we were in a winning position before paudie got sent off, kieran power was cleaning up in the sweeper role so they were playing straight into our hands, ye can talk about tactics all ye want but after the sending off we were completely over run at midfield and the half forward line...because power had moved from his sweeper role.

It's about winning a game in the end and we were on our way in doing that

Royal Legend

Deise_2012 wrote: »

At the end of the day we were in a winning position before paudie got sent off, kieran power was cleaning up in the sweeper role so they were playing straight into our hands, ye can talk about tactics all ye want but after the sending off we were completely over run at midfield and the half forward line...because power had moved from his sweeper role.

It's about winning a game in the end and we were on our way in doing that

But we didn't...

Management have to allow for all eventualities, Paudie was already on a yellow, I don't accept that just because we were down to 14 that it meant we could not win, you change formation, you don't just give up and what I saw from the stand last night was either giving up, having no plan B or just clueless.
I will leave it at that, it is just frustrating that within 5 days, three of our county teams have failed to put away teams that were there for the taking, considering that two of them were reigning AI champions

hardybuck

It's one thing to setup with a good game plan that works, but you've got to be adaptable and react to situations very quickly. The latter of the two seperates good managers from average managers, in my opinion.

I've played on many teams where managers just couldn't process information quickly enough on the sideline. Within 5 minutes a game can turn and be won or lost. I think this, particularly around the sending off, along with some errors on the field - i.e. the poor effort from the keeper for the goal, really cost Waterford.

It should also be pointed out that Waterford only introduced three subs despite it being a sweltering evening, and playing with 14 men. Clare used their full bench, and this would definitely have helped them to finish the game strongly.

Hidalgo

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Paudi Penders first yellow was hard to believe as there were about six players in a scuffle on the sideline that Clare seemed to disagree with. Row over Paudi was singled out but still got the sideline decision how strange was that. Surely if a foul had been that serious to warrant a yellow card you'd think the ref would have decided on a throw ball. I was a bit away from the scuffle but I saw plenty of hurley's being used as weapons. As was said by Mountainlad Eamon Murphy through on goal when he recieved a full frontal challenge not too disimilar to what Paudi committed and not even a warning in that case.

Even if 5 other players had been booked, Prendegrast would still have gone. His 2nd wasn't the fact that it was shoulder to chest, he used the hurley to stop Galvins run, and to neck region.

At what stage in the game did Eamon Murphy get fouled again? If the game is on TG4 player I must have another look at it.

Surprised he was taken off actually, he was showing for the ball consistently in an outnumbered forward line.

premierstone

Royal Legend wrote: »

And the Waterford panel was just as strong, even though Paudie Mahony was not 100% and Gavin O'Brien is still out. The bulk of this squad competed from u14 upwards as does the follow on for the next two years. Aim for the sky and you might hit the ceiling, aim for the ceiling....

As strong as what? The one that Clare beat by 19 points?

As a neutral it was fairly obvious to me that man for man Clare had a stronger team, so Waterford needed to change things and they did and tbh it was working very well and they were frustrating Clare very well, the sending off and the timing of the goal changed all that.

Mountainlad

Hidalgo wrote: »

Even if 5 other players had been booked, Prendegrast would still have gone. His 2nd wasn't the fact that it was shoulder to chest, he used the hurley to stop Galvins run, and to neck region.

At what stage in the game did Eamon Murphy get fouled again? If the game is on TG4 player I must have another look at it.

Surprised he was taken off actually, he was showing for the ball consistently in an outnumbered forward line.

First half, we were just getting into the ascendency so maybe we were a point or two down, probably around 20 mins.


I think Peter Queally can sleep easy knowing that one of the biggest criticisms of him is that we didn't lob in a free when the game was over.

As for withdrawing the man, it did mean that we weren't going to score goals but it meant Clare weren't either. There was no threat on the goal til Prendergast was sent off. They knew if they conceded goals we'd be bet but they were brave enough to do it. And it was working very well, and they had a well drilled and strong backline to. That platform given by Barry, Fives and Prender coupled with Power as an excellent choice of a sweeper helped. They also worked the ball extemely well up the field, which is a good part of the reason they won so many frees. And they had confidence in Jake Dillon's excellence as a free taker. The all-ireland u21 champions and Munster minor champions from 2010 playing us and we were on top and not looking in much bother until we went down to 14.


Some people are obviously forgetting pretty quickly that we have been beaten by an aggregate score of 37 points in the last three years at this level, the narrowest defeat a 5 point loss v Tipp in 2011 when we were 14 down at half time. I would happily give Peter Queally another run with this team given Fergal Hartely and Shane Ahearne both got two years, and both appear inferior managers to me.

Hidalgo

Watching the game last night, I wasn't sure what exactly Prendegast got his 1st yellow for so I had a look at it again.
In the lead up, the ball spills loose, Podge Collins pulls, Prendegast blocks but goes down. At the time I thought Collins had got him across the back of the leg as he bent down immediately to see if Prendegast was ok, but when Prendegast got back up he showed no signs of getting a belt. His hurley was broken though, I'm assuming he blocked Collins' attempted pull and that's what broke his hurley.

Is it possible he got a card as the ref or linesman saw him with a broken hurley and assumed the worse???
Unless something happened that didn't show up on camera.

Regarding the Eamon Murphy tackle by Jack Browne, lucky to escape yellow, not so much from the challenge but from the positioning. It wasn't the usual shoulder to chest, instead Browne ran into Murphy with his chest into Murphy's shoulder.

Mountainlad

No changes to the Waterford minor team, said I'd just say that instead of posting the entire team. I guess they were a good bit better than Limerick for the majority of the game, so it's understandable. Hopefully they get the job done this time, would be in the depths of despair if we were to lose another game 11 days.

Deise_2012

Mountainlad wrote: »

No changes to the Waterford minor team, said I'd just say that instead of posting the entire team. I guess they were a good bit better than Limerick for the majority of the game, so it's understandable. Hopefully they get the job done this time, would be in the depths of despair if we were to lose another game 11 days.

Very unfair to be criticising minors but I think they have made a big mistake starting farrell again, he's been poor in most of the games bar the clare one, would prefer to see cormac curran playing midfield and kearney wing forward but the management know more than I do so best of luck to them!

spacetrap

Hidalgo wrote: »

Watching the game last night, I wasn't sure what exactly Prendegast got his 1st yellow for so I had a look at it again.
In the lead up, the ball spills loose, Podge Collins pulls, Prendegast blocks but goes down. At the time I thought Collins had got him across the back of the leg as he bent down immediately to see if Prendegast was ok, but when Prendegast got back up he showed no signs of getting a belt. His hurley was broken though, I'm assuming he blocked Collins' attempted pull and that's what broke his hurley.

Is it possible he got a card as the ref or linesman saw him with a broken hurley and assumed the worse???
Unless something happened that didn't show up on camera.

Regarding the Eamon Murphy tackle by Jack Browne, lucky to escape yellow, not so much from the challenge but from the positioning. It wasn't the usual shoulder to chest, instead Browne ran into Murphy with his chest into Murphy's shoulder.

Would you go away Waterford were dirty simple as. What was the story with all the head high tackles , if the ref was any good more than one from Waterford would have seen the line.5 points from play does not say much for yer forwards it was the frees and many soft ones that kept ye in it. Also when the groundsmen were asked numerous times to water the pitch they refused. Another tactic to spoil the game and not let Clares skill destroy ye.

Hidalgo

spacetrap wrote: »

Would you go away Waterford were dirty simple as. What was the story with all the head high tackles , if the ref was any good more than one from Waterford would have seen the line.5 points from play does not say much for yer forwards it was the frees and many soft ones that kept ye in it. Also when the groundsmen were asked numerous times to water the pitch they refused. Another tactic to spoil the game and not let Clares skill destroy ye.

I'm from Clare.

All the head high tackles, who else do you think deserved to be sent off??
waterford had 2 high tackles, both resulting in yellow cards. Many of the frees Clare conceded were soft, but still frees, and stupid ones to give away. If Clare were more disciplined at the back ,this would have been less of a problem

spacetrap

Hidalgo wrote: »

I'm from Clare.

All the head high tackles, who else do you think deserved to be sent off??
waterford had 2 high tackles, both resulting in yellow cards. Many of the frees Clare conceded were soft, but still frees, and stupid ones to give away. If Clare were more disciplined at the back ,this would have been less of a problem

For a start Prendergast should have seen a straight red and the lad who took Collins out of it.Browne for us could and should have got yellow but a lot of frees to Waterford were not even frees Mcinerney fair shoulder and when O Neill slipped and was met with an elbow how was that a free to Waterford.
Sorry for assuming you were from Waterford.

Hidalgo

spacetrap wrote: »

For a start Prendergast should have seen a straight red and the lad who took Collins out of it.Browne for us could and should have got yellow but a lot of frees to Waterford were not even frees Mcinerney fair shoulder and when O Neill slipped and was met with an elbow how was that a free to Waterford.
Sorry for assuming you were from Waterford.

Prendegast's 2nd yellow could have been red, the one on Collins a yellow for me. Yes the David Mac shoulder was harsh, but then again, Collins got one very soft free, think it was against Darragh Fives for a push/shoulder in the back when it was really nothing.

WumBuster

Am i right in saying that if the minors lose on Tuesday they will be out again the following Saturday against Galway in an AI Q Final? Big incentive to win there.

Mountainlad

spacetrap wrote: »

For a start Prendergast should have seen a straight red and the lad who took Collins out of it.Browne for us could and should have got yellow but a lot of frees to Waterford were not even frees Mcinerney fair shoulder and when O Neill slipped and was met with an elbow how was that a free to Waterford.
Sorry for assuming you were from Waterford.

Duggan also got a free off Kieran Powr (think it was Power) when he was the one actually fouled the Waterford player. Straight in front of the posts. Decisions go against both teams. In no way were Waterford dirty. Neither side was. Clare fouled a lot, you could maybe at a stretch accuse them of being cynical. Not convinced myslef, there was only the one cynical tackle on Murphy. However, you could certainly call the Clare Senior team cynical on the evidence of Saturday night, and a lot of players on both panels.

3ships

From gaa.ie





Date TBC - Saturday July 27th/Sunday July 28th, 2013

• Electric Ireland GAA Hurling All Ireland Minor Championship 2013 Quarter Final
  TBC
  +ADD
  
  Antrim
  vs.
  Munster Runners-Up
  TBC
  More info
  
  
  
  
• Electric Ireland GAA Hurling All Ireland Minor Championship 2013 Quarter Final
  TBC
  +ADD
  
  Galway
  vs.
  Laois
  TBC
  More info
  
  
  
  

Hidalgo

Mountainlad wrote: »

Duggan also got a free off Kieran Powr (think it was Power) when he was the one actually fouled the Waterford player. Straight in front of the posts. Decisions go against both teams. In no way were Waterford dirty. Neither side was. Clare fouled a lot, you could maybe at a stretch accuse them of being cynical. Not convinced myslef, there was only the one cynical tackle on Murphy. However, you could certainly call the Clare Senior team cynical on the evidence of Saturday night, and a lot of players on both panels.

More silly and needless than cynical, the only cynical foul was the one on Murphy, and that was the type of action I'd want a member of my FB line to perform every day if necessary.

Both sides got a few iffy frees as you say, pretty much happens in every match.

robopaddy

WumBuster wrote: »

Am i right in saying that if the minors lose on Tuesday they will be out again the following Saturday against Galway in an AI Q Final? Big incentive to win there.

would be playing Antrim it would seem. Either way a Munster medal should be enough incentive for anyone to win

Mr Tibbs

Best of luck to the Minors Tuesday evening, dont leave this one behind you lads you are our last hope of any medals this year.

seananigans

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Best of luck to the Minors Tuesday evening, dont leave this one behind you lads you are our last hope of any medals this year.

no pressure now

Mr Tibbs

Tyres trive on presure and I think these bunch of young lads will also.

seananigans

Mr Tibbs wrote: »

Tyres trive on presure and I think these bunch of young lads will also.

oh ya ,our lads only fail when there's expectation

Deisegodeo

U21 match was very disappointing. I dont think we have won a game at this level since 2009, despite producing good schools and minor teams for the last number of years. Looks like Clare and other counties are overtaking us big time at development between minor and u21 level.

Lets hope the minors can produce another big performance and finish the job they really should have done in the drawn game. 8 points is a big lead to throw away in the last 10 minutes but hopefully they have learned the lessons and will bring home the Munster Cup. Would be a badly needed boost after the u21 and senior defeats of the past week. Best of luck to the minors anyway.

Thinkstoomuch

Deisegodeo wrote: »

U21 match was very disappointing. I dont think we have won a game at this level since 2009, despite producing good schools and minor teams for the last number of years. Looks like Clare and other counties are overtaking us big time at development between minor and u21 level.

Lets hope the minors can produce another big performance and finish the job they really should have done in the drawn game. 8 points is a big lead to throw away in the last 10 minutes but hopefully they have learned the lessons and will bring home the Munster Cup. Would be a badly needed boost after the u21 and senior defeats of the past week. Best of luck to the minors anyway.

Rest assured ,ye won't be the worst.Cork are.

We have ony won 1 minor game bar against Clare this year at home,since 08.

Ye have harty cup winning teams ,Cork have none.We have players ruined at minor level,again being badly coached at U21 level.

We have won just 2 games at U21 level,and while yere manager is new,we have stuck with the same guy the last four years,and their is a strong chance,the same minor and U21 managers will be involved next year,which means things wont change.
Ye won't be as bad as Cork.

Giveitfong

I am still trying to get my head around the latest case of a talented Waterford underage team failing to deliver in a game that was there to be won. It is the job of management to get their charges into the right frame of mind, to pick and set out the team properly, and to devise an appropriate game plan. I think the Waterford management got all three of these wrong in the game against Clare on Thursday night.


I thought that Clare were the more determined team. They won the throw-in at the beginning of the first and second halves and most of the rucks that developed during the course of the game. They also won the 50:50 contests and generally were better to react to breaking balls.


The whole approach of the Waterford to this game was defensive and supercautious. It is not clear to me that playing a sweeper and just two full forwards was as successful a tactic as some on this thread seem to think. It seemed to me that the players generally were not sure where they were supposed to be and what they were supposed to be doing, and the lack of structure to the way te team was set out was obvious throughout the game.


A lot of the problem was that the defenders were obviously told to follow the players they were assigned to mark, a situation which meant that there was no settled attacking platform. Darragh Fives seemed to spend a lot of time at fullback while Ray Barry, who scored 1-3 from play against the Kilkenny seniors, spent much of the second half at left corner back. This was crazy stuff.


Up front things made no sense at all. We had a strong wind in the first half but played only two players in the full forward line. Numerous balls were send aimlessly into spaces where there was either no player at all, or else a loose and very grateful Clare defender. We had no big man to act as a target for high ball coming in. Both Clare goals came directly from long puckouts which broke kindly for eager Clare forwards who were there in numbers. I don’t know why Cormac Heffernan didn’t start, but he has shown before that he can win ball or break it down. Yet he was not introduced until very late in the game.


Playing Jamie Barron at centre forward was the biggest mystery of all. What was this supposed to achieve? Here we have one of the most prolific scoring forwards in the county being kept away from where he is likely to do most damage. Barron is a very talented prospect, but his self-confidence must have taken a beating by the way he has been misused by both the senior and under-21 mentors this year.


Clare frequently play a two-man full forward but they try to make up for it by having speedy players breaking from midfield to create overlaps and point-scoring chances. The one man capable of doing likewise for Waterford was Donie Breathnach, and he showed what he was capable of in a brief first half spell when his strong running produced a point and a pointed free. Especially when Waterford were reduced to fourteen men, his strong running capability could have been of immense value. Yet he didn’t play the ball once in the second half. No allowance obviously was made in the game plan for getting the ball into Breathnach’s hand.


Nor was Breathnach ever used as a target man. Instead numerous balls were played down on Colm Curran who was not at the races and should have been substituted.


If properly managed, Waterford, playing on their home pitch, should have gone out with a positive frame of mind and instructed to get stuck into Clare. Back in May, a Waterford team, short their seven senior players, gave as good as they got against a full-strength Tipperary under-21 team in a high-quality challenge in Carrick. Donie Breathnach was magnificent on that occasion, as was Shane McNulty when moved to wing back.


I would have started against Clare with McNulty at centre back, Kieran Power on the wing, Darragh Fives and Stephen Roche at midfield, Ray Barry in the half forward line and Cormac Heffernan in the centre of a three-man full forward line. In last Thursday’s game, the lack of response of the Waterford mentors as the game began to move out of reach was breath-taking. I would have moved Tadhg Burke, a proven ball winner who was almost completely out of the game, to midfield and Darragh Fives to centre forward.


The Waterford mentors are also culpable in not dealing with the Paudie Prendergast car crash before it happened. Right from the start it was clear that Prendergast’s attitude was all wrong. He made a token effort to win possession in the first 50:50 situation he was presented with. He sent a couple of totally aimless balls into the forward line. He gave away a foul which produced a Clare point. He made a mess of a pick-up early in the second half which led to another Clare point. He got involved in the first free-for-all before that in which he ended up getting booked. I remarked at half-time to the person sitting beside me that if the selectors didn’t take him off he would be sent off, and I didn’t need a crystal ball to make that prediction.


Waterford also had no puckout strategy. Clare won three quarters of their own puckouts and the majority of the Waterford puckouts. All told, according to my reckoning, Waterford won 17 puckouts while Clare won 31. You can’t win games without securing a decent share of primary possession. I also counted eleven instances of Waterford hitting the ball to an unmarked Clare player.



If you have only five forwards you have to be very careful how you try to play the ball up to them. Too often Waterford hit balls blind with no intended recipient. Last Thursday night’s team also repeated a major weakness of the senior team i.e. hitting the ball straight to players with a defender right behind them, rather than playing the ball into space for players to run on to. Clare were very good at this.


I was astonished to see Austin Gleeson listed as substitute in the programme, and even more astonished to see him being brought on as a substitute. As far as I am aware, he played in none of the many challenge matches Waterford played in the lead-up to last Thursday, so it is not hard to imagine how the other players on the fringe of the team felt at him being drafted in like this.


Apart from that, it was embicilic (but unfortunately typical) of the Waterford County Board to even allow Gleeson to play in this game, just five days in advance of the minor hurling replay next Tuesday. I could see the obvious situation occurring where Waterford both lost the under-21 match and Gleeson got injured (although thankfully this does not appear to have happened). However, I can image how the minor selectors must have felt, as they tried to focus their charges on next week’s replay, to have their star player going off on a diversion such as this. No wonder Waterford win few titles at underage level.


The only really positive notes I took from last Thursday’s defeat were the fine performance of Kieran Power in his first year out of minor and the good shift Stephen Roche put in when moved to his proper position in midfield.