Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

robopaddy

Sam Swarek wrote: »

not a nice way for him to go alright and hopefully it wont upset his clubmates involved in the panel. nobody can doubt his passion and commitment to Waterford and the players wont look good coming out of this.

Definetly not. A lot of these players were at a similar meeting in Tramore 5 years ago where the decision was made to go against Justin.

robopaddy

Junior D wrote: »

Picked up on this myself, must be Mullane?
I'd bet that if DoC came in now as manager, Mullane would be announcing his comeback.
If something along those lines was to happen, I'd lose a lot a respect for the man

well he said on public airways yesterday he was shocked at the announcement... that would even send him down further in my estimation

doz

If the current squad told Michael Ryan that they didn't believe he was the man to bring them to the next level then I believe he would have accepted that and made the announcement on that basis.

If some of the other stuff is true then I think there will be serious repercussions for a lot of people and a lot of respect and trust lost in certain individuals.

In fairness you would think the players would have been better off supporting the minors in Dublin yesterday, the timing of the meeting was atrocious and extremely disrespectful to the minor panel.

alllcounty

What members of the 2012 panel met the county board to oust the manager. The only players I can think of that weren't part of the panel this year were Wayne Hutchinson, Philip Mahony, Stephen Molumphy, Shane Casey, Eoin Kelly, John Mullane, Eoin McGrath, Aidan Kearney, Tommey Ryan, Paul O'Brien. They hardly had anything to do with this mess. This is a fcuking disaster.

rebel girl 15

Facts of the matter are that Ryan and the board sat down on Tuesday and he was happy to go forward and the board were happy to go forward with him as well.

Mountainlad

I think people are clutching at straws trying to make Jason Ryan out as a candidate with a lot to offer. Did a brilliant job with the Wexford footballers, but to be honest I think the players would be pretty bemused by and large if he was appointed. He seems like a top lad, but it would be a massive gamble and realistically I can't see it happening.

As for Daly, I don't think he will ever manage Waterford. I can't imagine he likes us, going on the u21 Munster final in '92 when someone said "Ye should stick to the traditional music" which he then cited in his 1995 all-ireland winning speech "we love our traditional music down in Clare, but we love our hurling to". Also mentioned it in Denis Walsh's book "Hurling: the revolution years" when he said "I thought it was a bit much. Like you wouldn't mind someone from Cork or Tipp saying it to you, but Waterford weren't exactly streets ahead".

In the same book he also mentioned how someone in one of the 1998 munster finals said to him "Still batin' the wife?", a reference to rumours that were around. That one really hurt no doubt, and to be honest if I was him I don't think I would ever get over that. Probably seems unfair to paint a whole County with the one brush, but its the way of it. Think about all the times people see idiot fans in the stands and then come away with opinions about the County's entire collection of fans.


He'd be mad to go from Dublin to Waterford at this stage anyway. Another thing, I've had a lot of time for him as a manager since he brought Clare to two all-ireland semis and gave Cork the best game they got in 2005 with a pretty old Clare team. But I think if Waterford had the results Dublin had, would he still be in charge? I know Dublin were building from a lower step on the ladder no doubt, but doing well in the 2009 league and making a Leinster final, to losing to Antrim, to winning the league and running Tipp close, to getting relegated and losing consecutive championship games. I don't think he'd still be in charge.

Not undermining the job he's done, I think it's fantastic. Just saying we're not very patient here. Struck me as odd that a poster above said whoever comes in next won't get the same patience, that we'll need to be pushing for an all-ireland in the next 5 years. Personally, I think if he has 5 years without winning an all-ireland in Waterford than the sky will turn green and the grass blue.

lovelypoint

Mountainlad wrote: »

I think people are clutching at straws trying to make Jason Ryan out as a candidate with a lot to offer. Did a brilliant job with the Wexford footballers, but to be honest I think the players would be pretty bemused by and large if he was appointed. He seems like a top lad, but it would be a massive gamble and realistically I can't see it happening.

I don't think I agree. The day where one man was all things is gone, and rightfully so, imo. We expected Justin to be all things, and while he brought us close to the top, he never had it all to bring us all the way. These days, I think the management team is the most important, with the manager holding it all together. Once we have a management that can ensure we can win ball, attack, defend, make sure we are fit enough, possess the tactical nous to setup teams and respond during games, blood young players, make hard calls, and hold it all together, I personally would not care if it was 1 man or 5 we had on the sidelines.

Brad1234

Thanks for all you have done Michael but a change was needed.. Hurling people will see what is wrong bogeys on here will see a extra time loss to KK as an achievement..

He deserves respect for what he has done but his tactical awareness was clueless.. Throwing on Tony Browne v KK for Darragh fives who was probably MOTM was clueless at best and he was initially putting him on Full forward to lift the crowd haha..

We need a proper coach with good structure top class touch training like cork.. Our Template is Cork cause we always play like cork.. So there are in an all ireland final now are they really miles better than us.. No there not but they have a top class man in charge with an excellent backroom team and the players know exactly where they are going..

Now look at us.. At times this year when the game was there for the taking we looked clueless on the pitch or on the line.. he had Seamus Prender v KK as two in the inside line and he they were pinging balls from Corner to corner for a 33 year old to chase.. Can anyone not see the problem with that.. So you can huff and puff about how a lovely man ryan is and im sure he is but whats that got to do with waterford hurling? He brought fives back on then in extra time v KK and brought in Shane Walsh who couldnt walk?

V Clare they missed a rake of scores in the second half and he told them with 20 mins to go to push up the field and the game in the melting pot.. Come on people leave your personal agendas aside just cause he may have said hello to you on the street.. This is waterford hurling which we want to be the best.. if you want to be the best you need to have the best people around the group which we certainly dont..

For the record i have from great authority they didnt want him out just backroom team to be shaken up and next they heard he was gone...

Minors is another great example superb win yesterday but are they winning cause they are just that good cause to me (and i havent missed a game) they make the same mistakes over and over again.. What are the backroom team doing.. Going for goals when point is on.. Keepers puckouts are all over the place.. Some players unbelievably lucky to be still starting? over emphasis on handpassing and delivery to the forwards when its good scores come (prob 10 good balls out of at least 40 goes in)

So i dont care what club you are or who you're friendly with this is waterford hurling.. If had a family member who was involved and they were poor id tell him not cover it up cause i know him well.. Waterford hurling is bigger than anyone so leave your agendas aside.. Sick of people on here barking on about how Ryan was hung out to dry when he most certainly wasn't and i commend his work but he wasnt going to bring us any further..

Psychedelic

robopaddy wrote: »

Also we did some incredibly daft things like trying to clear the ball first time in the air when it was easier to catch it and think about it before we strike it and pulling on it along the ground when it should be picked up. Whether it was showboating or nerves I dont know but its something that has been consistent throughout the year and its another thing that management should be drilling into these lads that it just isnt on. I thought KK were much more disciplined, organised and better drilled but I think we had more quality hurlers to get us over the line.

hardybuck wrote: »

First off - well done to the minors. However, this team are really frustrating to watch. Their decision making was awful at times. Without naming names, it looked like a few lads knew they were on tv and were looking to turn on the style. Shot selection and use of possession in particular need to be looked at by management.

It was frustrating watching the fancy stuff go wrong, but I think a certain amount of flare should be encouraged, just need to get the balance right and know when not to attempt anything too risky - minor level perfect to learn that before they get to senior. It won't always work out and looks bad but sometimes it will work and it's amazing to watch, and we want that don't we?

Like in soccer, how many times do you see a player e.g. Messi, Van Persie etc lose the ball by trying a fancy flick or miss a dubious long-range shot, but their moments of brilliance wouldn't happen if they didn't try. Do we want a Waterford team who plays it totally safe & sensible or a team that plays with at least a bit of style?

Mountainlad

lovelypoint wrote: »

I don't think I agree. The day where one man was all things is gone, and rightfully so, imo. We expected Justin to be all things, and while he brought us close to the top, he never had it all to bring us all the way. These days, I think the management team is the most important, with the manager holding it all together. Once we have a management that can ensure we can win ball, attack, defend, make sure we are fit enough, possess the tactical nous to setup teams and respond during games, blood young players, make hard calls, and hold it all together, I personally would not care if it was 1 man or 5 we had on the sidelines.

I agree that one man can not run the show these days. I just don't see where Jason's credentials lie there. He hasn't a hurling background. You could say the same about Michael Ryan, but I wouldn't advise anyone to make that argument given the players have seemingly just voted him out! But yeah I think these days you need to look at a management team rather than just a manager.

Also, the hoganstand article was obviously based on this Examiner article, but more detail in it http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/waterford-player-power-forces-ryan-out-239576.html

hardybuck

Psychedelic wrote: »

It was frustrating watching the fancy stuff go wrong, but I think a certain amount of flare should be encouraged, just need to get the balance right and know when not to attempt anything too risky - minor level perfect to learn that before they get to senior. It won't always work out and looks bad but sometimes it will work and it's amazing to watch - and we want that don't we?

Like in soccer, how many times do you see a player e.g. Messi, Van Persi etc lose the ball by trying a fancy flick or miss a dubious long-range shot, but their moments of brilliance wouldn't happen if they didn't try. Do we want a Waterford team who plays it totally safe & sensible or a team that plays with at least a bit of style?

I want teams who play to win. However, the ultimate goal of minor teams is to produce senior players, and we can definitely point to several lads who will have the potential to step up. I don't think you'd say the same about the Kilkenny team, who seemed to be a group of honest individuals working well as a unit for the most part.

We had 10 years of flamboyant teams who won a few Munsters, but not the big one. Then we had four or five years of conservative hurling which went in a different direction. Somewhere between the two styles would be my preference.

Cork pull a team together in about 18 months from nowhere who'll have a good chance of winning at least one all Ireland. They do the basics well, and are good at chipping their points over. There is a perfect example of a team of good, but not great players playing and winning sensibly.

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

Not undermining the job he's done, I think it's fantastic. Just saying we're not very patient here. Struck me as odd that a poster above said whoever comes in next won't get the same patience, that we'll need to be pushing for an all-ireland in the next 5 years. Personally, I think if he has 5 years without winning an all-ireland in Waterford than the sky will turn green and the grass blue.

That would be me. I stand by it. Whoever comes in won't be coming into a team which faced the same challenges during Ryan's tenure. They'll have a group of players, although young, have been blooded, some further additions from strong minor & U21 sides, and the prospect of some talented senior players coming in for a couple more seasons.

I think the next five to ten years in hurling will be extremely open, we may well see a return to the 90's scenario where the likes of Dublin, Clare & Limerick will all pick off titles, with the odd one for the likes of Cork & Tipp. If we aren't in there challenging among that group we're going wrong somewhere.

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

That would be me. I stand by it. Whoever comes in won't be coming into a team which faced the same challenges during Ryan's tenure. They'll have a group of players, although young, have been blooded, some further additions from strong minor & U21 sides, and the prospect of some talented senior players coming in for a couple more seasons.

I think the next five to ten years in hurling will be extremely open, we may well see a return to the 90's scenario where the likes of Dublin, Clare & Limerick will all pick off titles, with the odd one for the likes of Cork & Tipp. If we aren't in there challenging among that group we're going wrong somewhere.

Naturally. I agree with you, just I don't see how the next manager god be getting less patience if he had 5 years without us winning an all-ireland when Ryan had 2. I don't think you will see a manager last 3 years without at least an all-ireland final appearance or something pretty big like.

lovelypoint

Mountainlad wrote: »

I agree that one man can not run the show these days. I just don't see where Jason's credentials lie there. He hasn't a hurling background. You could say the same about Michael Ryan, but I wouldn't advise anyone to make that argument given the players have seemingly just voted him out! But yeah I think these days you need to look at a management team rather than just a manager.

Also, the hoganstand article was obviously based on this Examiner article, but more detail in it http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/waterford-player-power-forces-ryan-out-239576.html

I think we're probably in agreement on much of the above, but even just purely in an administrator/ delegator/ motivator capacity, I would have thought Jason after cutting his teeth in Wexford would have something to offer in that regard. Not saying he is the man for the job, just that I personally wouldn't feel he should be summarily dismissed on his background. In any event, a shrewd appointment is called for, and a team put in place where all the cogs fit.

Also, none of this 2 year nonsense from the county board, that is no time for a manager to focus on making progress, constantly looking over his shoulder, imo. Think giving someone 2 years only works from the point of the county board not having to make any tough calls if someone needed to be removed, as they more than likely could just wait until the 2 years are up. Better a shrewd appointment as mentioned, and give them three years, and if its a disaster before then, let the CB have the balls to do whats necessary.

Would like to hear more on what really happened with the players and what role they had in Ryan's decision to step aside. Right now, without any further clarification, I can see the tired old rubbish of player power in Waterford being trotted out again. If we're going to get beaten with that stick, I'd prefer to know if it was what actually transpired, rather than the media filling in the gaps in their own predictable way, for lack of more information.

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

Naturally. I agree with you, just I don't see how the next manager god be getting less patience if he had 5 years without us winning an all-ireland when Ryan had 2. I don't think you will see a manager last 3 years without at least an all-ireland final appearance or something pretty big like.

We're on the same page here, you misunderstand my point slightly. Winning Munster titles and going close in AI's semi's or finals would get you some patience.

As much as I respect Ryan for battling through a tough period, in 2012 we conceded 7 goals in a Munster final, lost an all Ireland quarter last year in which we weren't helped by some poor selections. In 2013 we go out of Munster pretty tamely in our first game, and don't make it out of the qualifiers.

A cold, results based assessment of things on paper is that Waterford went backwards in those two years, albeit doing right things along the way which will benefit us in the future, hopefully.

robopaddy

Brad1234 wrote: »

Thanks for all you have done Michael but a change was needed.. Hurling people will see what is wrong bogeys on here will see a extra time loss to KK as an achievement..

He deserves respect for what he has done but his tactical awareness was clueless.. Throwing on Tony Browne v KK for Darragh fives who was probably MOTM was clueless at best and he was initially putting him on Full forward to lift the crowd haha..

We need a proper coach with good structure top class touch training like cork.. Our Template is Cork cause we always play like cork.. So there are in an all ireland final now are they really miles better than us.. No there not but they have a top class man in charge with an excellent backroom team and the players know exactly where they are going..

Now look at us.. At times this year when the game was there for the taking we looked clueless on the pitch or on the line.. he had Seamus Prender v KK as two in the inside line and he they were pinging balls from Corner to corner for a 33 year old to chase.. Can anyone not see the problem with that.. So you can huff and puff about how a lovely man ryan is and im sure he is but whats that got to do with waterford hurling? He brought fives back on then in extra time v KK and brought in Shane Walsh who couldnt walk?

V Clare they missed a rake of scores in the second half and he told them with 20 mins to go to push up the field and the game in the melting pot.. Come on people leave your personal agendas aside just cause he may have said hello to you on the street.. This is waterford hurling which we want to be the best.. if you want to be the best you need to have the best people around the group which we certainly dont..

For the record i have from great authority they didnt want him out just backroom team to be shaken up and next they heard he was gone...

Minors is another great example superb win yesterday but are they winning cause they are just that good cause to me (and i havent missed a game) they make the same mistakes over and over again.. What are the backroom team doing.. Going for goals when point is on.. Keepers puckouts are all over the place.. Some players unbelievably lucky to be still starting? over emphasis on handpassing and delivery to the forwards when its good scores come (prob 10 good balls out of at least 40 goes in)

So i dont care what club you are or who you're friendly with this is waterford hurling.. If had a family member who was involved and they were poor id tell him not cover it up cause i know him well.. Waterford hurling is bigger than anyone so leave your agendas aside.. Sick of people on here barking on about how Ryan was hung out to dry when he most certainly wasn't and i commend his work but he wasnt going to bring us any further..

Stop undermining the intelligence of the regular posters here saying that they only like skully because they like him as a person implying that they know nothing about hurling management. No one has ever said he is perfect and didnt make mistakes in his time. People appreciate the effort he has put in and what he did for Waterford hurling and the common feeling is that he did as good as anyone else could have done during his tenure and did not deserve to be undermined in this way.

Its so easy to blame him like you are doing for the 2 defeats to Clare and KK but the players have to take responsiblity aswell. We threw in the towel against Clare with 10 mins to go and it wasnt Skully Ryans fault we hit wide after wide against KK in the second half knowing that the game was there for the taking. Maurice Shanahan missing a free in front of the goals 20 yards out... not singling him out either but if the players were men enough to look at the managers performance and judge it I hope they looked at their own aswell

PS Darragh Fives got injured against KK

lovelypoint

Mountainlad wrote: »

Not undermining the job he's done, I think it's fantastic. Just saying we're not very patient here. Struck me as odd that a poster above said whoever comes in next won't get the same patience, that we'll need to be pushing for an all-ireland in the next 5 years. Personally, I think if he has 5 years without winning an all-ireland in Waterford than the sky will turn green and the grass blue.

Simple facts are we're being left behind, and it is critical we do something about it. Clare, Limerick, Cork and Dublin can all justifiably claim to be ahead of us now, while we've been threading water. Sure, there's been green shoots, but personally I've not seen anything more than the promise of a better brand of hurling. Even if Ryan had continued in the job, he would have had a few big areas to address, namely serious issues with gaining possession, and a forward line that as a unit is simply not good enough.

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

We're on the same page here, you misunderstand my point slightly. Winning Munster titles and going close in AI's semi's or finals would get you some patience.

As much as I respect Ryan for battling through a tough period, in 2012 we conceded 7 goals in a Munster final, lost an all Ireland quarter last year in which we weren't helped by some poor selections. In 2013 we go out of Munster pretty tamely in our first game, and don't make it out of the qualifiers.

A cold, results based assessment of things on paper is that Waterford went backwards in those two years, albeit doing right things along the way which will benefit us in the future, hopefully.

That was 2011 under Davy Fitzgerald, when he decided Brick was a corner back, Noel Connors was a full back, Jerome Maher was the man to mark Corbett, and Eoin McGrath was our best way of negating Paudie Mahers influence.

I guess you might be right, but I dunno. It depends on the manner of how we achieve our results. If the team is horrible to watch then patience might wear thin.

Brad1234

Tell me what pattern of play we were going to last season so? i can tell what plan limerick cork dubs clare KK have.. Tell me what waterford had? We have great players in our team probably of a more of a team ethic than players gone by which is the way hurling has changed to now...

So come on tell me?

And he wasnt so injured to role back on in extra time? it was a knock he could run off and actually ran off

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

That was 2011 under Davy Fitzgerald, when he decided Brick was a corner back, Noel Connors was a full back, Jerome Maher was the man to mark Corbett, and Eoin McGrath was our best way of negating Paudie Mahers influence.

I guess you might be right, but I dunno. It depends on the manner of how we achieve our results. If the team is horrible to watch then patience might wear thin.

You are indeed correct. I'm mixing up my years. In 2012 we lost to Tipp again in the final by 7 points.

My overall assessment of Ryan would be positive. He battled through a difficult period. He never had the full respect of fans and probably the players which didn't help him either. I think he could have had a good year with the team in 2014 given the chance.

The 'Waterford style' as we have come to know is only a recent thing, and was brought about by the individuals who were had available to us in the late 90's/00's, i.e. marquee forwards and a leaky defence. You've got to pick a style and tactics around players we have available at the time, and that's what the next manager needs to do.

Mountainlad

Brad1234 wrote: »

Tell me what pattern of play we were going to last season so? i can tell what plan limerick cork dubs clare KK have.. Tell me what waterford had? We have great players in our team probably of a more of a team ethic than players gone by which is the way hurling has changed to now...

So come on tell me?

And he wasnt so injured to role back on in extra time? it was a knock he could run off and actually ran off

His performance level definitely significantly dropped after he got the knock (having been fantastic up to then). He was right to be replaced, thing is we had nobody to replace him. If you see as much as you say you do, I find difficult to understand how you couldn't see that.

hardybuck wrote: »

You are indeed correct. I'm mixing up my years. In 2012 we lost to Tipp again in the final by 7 points.

My overall assessment of Ryan would be positive. He battled through a difficult period. He never had the full respect of fans and probably the players which didn't help him either. I think he could have had a good year with the team in 2014 given the chance.

The 'Waterford style' as we have come to know is only a recent thing, and was brought about by the individuals who were had available to us in the late 90's/00's, i.e. marquee forwards and a leaky defence. You've got to pick a style and tactics around players we have available at the time, and that's what the next manager needs to do.

Yeah and never looked like winning it second halff despite playing well in the first. But it was progress (but admittedly once you had the team selection right, wasn't gonna be hard to better 2011).

Well, success and the perceived consensus that we are a top level team that should compete accordingly are ideas as new as the flamboyant style of play.

I think we do have hurlers coming through with plenty of skill. I think hurling is a beautiful game to watch, and just doing the simple things right can make it look great. Like yesterday, the two teams took the right option so many times. Very impressed with how they used possession, and the accuracy on show.

I agree with what you said ultimately we want teams trained to win. And that players trying audacious things that come off 1/5 times isn't good enough. But playing with style and skill certainly shouldn't be seen by anyone as a barrier to winning, in fact I think it really is the opposite.

robopaddy

Brad1234 wrote: »

Tell me what pattern of play we were going to last season so? i can tell what plan limerick cork dubs clare KK have.. Tell me what waterford had? We have great players in our team probably of a more of a team ethic than players gone by which is the way hurling has changed to now...

So come on tell me?

And he wasnt so injured to role back on in extra time? it was a knock he could run off and actually ran off

Im not a master tactician like yourself but we got it pretty much spot on against KK as far as I can see. Yes we did play the ball low into the corners a lot of the time but this is helped keep us in the game imo at least at least gave us a fighting chance of winning possession the alternative was high balls down on top of tommy walsh, kieran joyce, and Brian Hogan. We didnt seal the deal because we couldnt puck the damn ball over the bar plain and simple. We won enough possession to win the game we got that much right but the forwards just werent near good enough on the night.

With regard to Fives the player was injured and not fit to play on at that time and a lad called Tony Browne on the bench... of course your going to take him off. If the knock had been shaken off by the time extra time came on why wouldnt you bring him back on. I dont see whats hard to understand about it

culbaire

robopaddy wrote: »

Stop undermining the intelligence of the regular posters here saying that they only like skully because they like him as a person implying that they know nothing about hurling management. No one has ever said he is perfect and didnt make mistakes in his time. People appreciate the effort he has put in and what he did for Waterford hurling and the common feeling is that he did as good as anyone else could have done during his tenure and did not deserve to be undermined in this way.

Its so easy to blame him like you are doing for the 2 defeats to Clare and KK but the players have to take responsiblity aswell. We threw in the towel against Clare with 10 mins to go and it wasnt Skully Ryans fault we hit wide after wide against KK in the second half knowing that the game was there for the taking. Maurice Shanahan missing a free in front of the goals 20 yards out... not singling him out either but if the players were men enough to look at the managers performance and judge it I hope they looked at their own aswell

PS Darragh Fives got injured against KK

Michael Ryan and his backroom team got as much out of this team as was humanly possible taking into account the fact that we are rebuilding and have very scarce financial resources. Some people in Waterford need to wake up. We are short another four players at least, to make the breakthrough. The future is with the young players. The county was trawled for talent. There were no prima donnas on the team managed by Ryan. JBM wont accept prima donnas on his team. Everybody is equal. You take orders or you leave. That's the way it must be in Waterford. No so called star can be allowed to dictate to a Waterford manager. Does not matter who he is. Discipline must prevail. If a so called star cant take orders he must go. We in Waterford are inclined to allow one or two so called stars too much leeway. Possibly within three years we might be able to win an All Ireland at senior level. This will only be achieved with military discipline. Any so called star/player who refuses to take orders must be dumped off the panel until he learns to see sense.

Finally in relation to the minors: A defense coach needs to be brougt in to tighten up the backline. Similarly with the forwards who are capable of playing with much greater fluency. This would help get this talented bunch of players over the line

hardybuck

robopaddy wrote: »

Im not a master tactician like yourself but we got it pretty much spot on against KK as far as I can see. Yes we did play the ball low into the corners a lot of the time but this is helped keep us in the game imo at least at least gave us a fighting chance of winning possession the alternative was high balls down on top of tommy walsh, kieran joyce, and Brian Hogan. We didnt seal the deal because we couldnt puck the damn ball over the bar plain and simple. We won enough possession to win the game we got that much right but the forwards just werent near good enough on the night.

The balls going in were ok, but they were too often played into a channel which was occupied by Seamus Prender, who just hadn't the pace to get to half of them. That made no sense at all.

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

The balls going in were ok, but they were too often played into a channel which was occupied by Seamus Prender, who just hadn't the pace to get to half of them. That made no sense at all.

I don't want to harp on about the wrongs and rights of that game, but I saw a lot of high balls down on top of Prendergast when he was full forward, none of which he won. He has zero pace. What type of magical ball were we expecting the midfield and half forwards to play into him? Delaney was able to just stop him catching it, and Murphy clead up on the breaks.

I don't think Seamus is the full forward many want him to be. Even a few times in the second half he was completely isolated on Delaney, but didnt win a single 50/50 ball. If Shane Walsh had been fit, we would have won the game. I'm pretty certain of that.

Ropaire

hardybuck wrote: »

The balls going in were ok, but they were too often played into a channel which was occupied by Seamus Prender, who just hadn't the pace to get to half of them. That made no sense at all.

True, I'd have had Jamie Barron in there myself with Seamus further out. But to be fair we just didn't have the forwards on the day to win no matter what we did, the game plan worked and if we were more clinical with our shooting and frees we'd have won.

Brad1234

robopaddy wrote: »

Im not a master tactician like yourself but we got it pretty much spot on against KK as far as I can see. Yes we did play the ball low into the corners a lot of the time but this is helped keep us in the game imo at least at least gave us a fighting chance of winning possession the alternative was high balls down on top of tommy walsh, kieran joyce, and Brian Hogan. We didnt seal the deal because we couldnt puck the damn ball over the bar plain and simple. We won enough possession to win the game we got that much right but the forwards just werent near good enough on the night.

With regard to Fives the player was injured and not fit to play on at that time and a lad called Tony Browne on the bench... of course your going to take him off. If the knock had been shaken off by the time extra time came on why wouldnt you bring him back on. I dont see whats hard to understand about it

On Fives issue he 'jogged off to the sideline and told Ryan he was fine.. Maybe exuberance of youth but looked ok to me.. Ryan had ants in his pants to get Tony on which again i dont agree with and it was playing to the gallery and media stuff which is poor mgmt..

Low ball into corners to which it came back out quick smart.. How many scores did we get from play and did the inside line get.. Why would you put your best ball winner in a two man line where pace be needed.

Lets not be fooled by we played low ball that game plan stopped after about 20 mins and we played plenty of looping balls into forwards with seamus in corner forward for large chunks of it.. Tommy Walsh and joyce plucked a nice chunk of ball through that game..

If we were going with that short game plan you cant just introduce it in a week... That needed to be done early season which to be fair had been started in the league but after KK league game it was stopped due to errors which again is par for the course in poor conditions but you perfect it during that time.. Again had a plan two errors dump it even though it worked well for large chunks in nowlan park is poor mgmt in my eyes..

Lets stick the facts of it here instead of sniping 'master tactician' comments.. I think ryan did an adaquate job but wont bring them on further simply my case

Mountainlad

Brad1234 wrote: »

On Fives issue he 'jogged off to the sideline and told Ryan he was fine.. Maybe exuberance of youth but looked ok to me.. Ryan had ants in his pants to get Tony on which again i dont agree with and it was playing to the gallery and media stuff which is poor mgmt..

Low ball into corners to which it came back out quick smart.. How many scores did we get from play and did the inside line get.. Why would you put your best ball winner in a two man line where pace be needed.

Lets not be fooled by we played low ball that game plan stopped after about 20 mins and we played plenty of looping balls into forwards with seamus in corner forward for large chunks of it.. Tommy Walsh and joyce plucked a nice chunk of ball through that game..

If we were going with that short game plan you cant just introduce it in a week... That needed to be done early season which to be fair had been started in the league but after KK league game it was stopped due to errors which again is par for the course in poor conditions but you perfect it during that time.. Again had a plan two errors dump it even though it worked well for large chunks in nowlan park is poor mgmt in my eyes..

Lets stick the facts of it here instead of sniping 'master tactician' comments.. I think ryan did an adaquate job but wont bring them on further simply my case

Here, you cannot possibly be surprised by some people having a go at you when you come on accusing every one of defending him purely because there his best friend and all that sh*t. And then come out trying to maintain that you have far better tactical insight than anybody here defending Ryan without actually saying much to be honest.

Criticizing the decision to take off an injured player, and the replacement used. Who is it you would have brought on? I do think Tony is probably passed it personally, but they were very, very limited with options on the bench. Not going to mention names on the bench but unfortunately the subs that were there to come on are not up to inter-county standard at this point in time so the hand was forced there.

robopaddy

Brad1234 wrote: »

On Fives issue he 'jogged off to the sideline and told Ryan he was fine.. Maybe exuberance of youth but looked ok to me.. Ryan had ants in his pants to get Tony on which again i dont agree with and it was playing to the gallery and media stuff which is poor mgmt..

Low ball into corners to which it came back out quick smart.. How many scores did we get from play and did the inside line get.. Why would you put your best ball winner in a two man line where pace be needed.

Lets not be fooled by we played low ball that game plan stopped after about 20 mins and we played plenty of looping balls into forwards with seamus in corner forward for large chunks of it.. Tommy Walsh and joyce plucked a nice chunk of ball through that game..

If we were going with that short game plan you cant just introduce it in a week... That needed to be done early season which to be fair had been started in the league but after KK league game it was stopped due to errors which again is par for the course in poor conditions but you perfect it during that time.. Again had a plan two errors dump it even though it worked well for large chunks in nowlan park is poor mgmt in my eyes..

Lets stick the facts of it here instead of sniping 'master tactician' comments.. I think ryan did an adaquate job but wont bring them on further simply my case

Dont see too many 'facts' there just speculation and your own opinion. Maybe your right maybe not but I think people are looking too deep to find flaws in ryans management. I refuse blame tactics losing for us against Kilkenny I beleive we had loads of clearcut chances chances to win but didnt convert them simple as that and you cant blame ryan for that hes not the one who crosses the white line and pucks the ball over the bar. Those are the 'facts' in my eyes

Mountainlad

Heard that the County Board aren't happy with the players. That they wanted to alter the backroom staff as has been mentioned I think, and that's what they said to the Board. Not sure how Michael Ryan comes into this, but I think it's possibly a case that he wasn't prepared to be have his backroom staff dictated to him by the players (again) and decided to go.

I really hate the manner of all this. I would have backed the players fully in 2008, but they really shoot themselves in the foot with how they seem to be handling things. Having a meeting amongst themselves is one thing, you want the input of everybody and any things they would like to see change by a majority decision at the very leat. That's fair enough. But did they go then to Michael Ryan and the board, or just the board? If the board had to tell Ryan I wouldn't be impressed at all.

In 2008, they went behind Justin's back. Now, personally I think Justin had some sort of opinion that he would be there forever and he treated several players very shabbily but still even if someone hasn't treated you right you don't lower your own standards.

Hoping there'll be some confirmation of whether 2012 was a typo in the newspaper article today when used to describe the delegation of players that met in the Ramada. Will be very disappointed if it wasn't, as nobody from last years panel that isn't there this year has the right to be involved in a squad decision.

robopaddy

Mountainlad wrote: »

Heard that the County Board aren't happy with the players. That they wanted to alter the backroom staff as has been mentioned I think, and that's what they said to the Board. Not sure how Michael Ryan comes into this, but I think it's possibly a case that he wasn't prepared to be have his backroom staff dictated to him by the players (again) and decided to go.

I really hate the manner of all this. I would have backed the players fully in 2008, but they really shoot themselves in the foot with how they seem to be handling things. Having a meeting amongst themselves is one thing, you want the input of everybody and any things they would like to see change by a majority decision at the very leat. That's fair enough. But did they go then to Michael Ryan and the board, or just the board? If the board had to tell Ryan I wouldn't be impressed at all.

In 2008, they went behind Justin's back. Now, personally I think Justin had some sort of opinion that he would be there forever and he treated several players very shabbily but still even if someone hasn't treated you right you don't lower your own standards.

Hoping there'll be some confirmation of whether 2012 was a typo in the newspaper article today when used to describe the delegation of players that met in the Ramada. Will be very disappointed if it wasn't, as nobody from last years panel that isn't there this year has the right to be involved in a squad decision.

either way the whole thing is a bloody mess

Ropaire

The only positive to be taken from this is at least we've got plenty of time to look for a suitable replacement and we're in a better position with he players available and with the time available to work with them than the last time this happened in 2008. Fingers crossed that works to our advantage and we get the best man available, regardless of what county they're from.

doz

Mountainlad wrote: »

Hoping there'll be some confirmation of whether 2012 was a typo in the newspaper article today when used to describe the delegation of players that met in the Ramada. Will be very disappointed if it wasn't, as nobody from last years panel that isn't there this year has the right to be involved in a squad decision.

Could it be the case that they referred to it as the 2012 panel being that the current panel would have started training pre Xmas? Just a thought. The unpalatable alternative is that they simply didn't want to name those reportedly involved.

I know there have been rumours flying around about Mullane possibly being involved but he was working with RTE Radio in Dublin on the minor game yesterday and I am refusing to contemplate that he was in any way involved unless the contrary is proven.

I'm sure it will all come out in the wash eventually but it is a pretty embarrassing state of affairs and not for the first time we are the laughing stock of the hurling world.

Sam Swarek

The players may become untouchable as in no decent manager would get involved this after justins heave, ryans original selectors and now Ryan, that's 3 management teams shown the door by the players.
I hope none of 2012 panel were involved in the meeting, they had no business being there or having a say, those lads were either dropped or retired before this year.

Sam Swarek

doz wrote: »

Could it be the case that they referred to it as the 2012 panel being that the current panel would have started training pre Xmas? Just a thought. The unpalatable alternative is that they simply didn't want to name those reportedly involved.

I know there have been rumours flying around about Mullane possibly being involved but he was working with RTE Radio in Dublin on the minor game yesterday and I am refusing to contemplate that he was in any way involved unless the contrary is proven.

I'm sure it will all come out in the wash eventually but it is a pretty embarrassing state of affairs and not for the first time we are the laughing stock of the hurling world.

hard to see how Mullane would have been involved, he's cleverer than that and he'd have known it wasn't his place to be involved in any meeting. as you said he was in Dublin yesterday and he wrote on the paper today that he was surprised with ryan leaving so that's surely the truth, he wouldn't have wrote he wasn't involved on a national paper if he indeed was involved. give the man the benefit here.

tonc76

doz wrote: »

Could it be the case that they referred to it as the 2012 panel being that the current panel would have started training pre Xmas? Just a thought. The unpalatable alternative is that they simply didn't want to name those reportedly involved.

I know there have been rumours flying around about Mullane possibly being involved but he was working with RTE Radio in Dublin on the minor game yesterday and I am refusing to contemplate that he was in any way involved unless the contrary is proven.

I'm sure it will all come out in the wash eventually but it is a pretty embarrassing state of affairs and not for the first time we are the laughing stock of the hurling world.

I'd say the hurling world is focused on the Cork Dublin match yesterday rather than the goings on in the Waterford senior set up.

Mountainlad

doz wrote: »

Could it be the case that they referred to it as the 2012 panel being that the current panel would have started training pre Xmas? Just a thought. The unpalatable alternative is that they simply didn't want to name those reportedly involved.

I know there have been rumours flying around about Mullane possibly being involved but he was working with RTE Radio in Dublin on the minor game yesterday and I am refusing to contemplate that he was in any way involved unless the contrary is proven.

I'm sure it will all come out in the wash eventually but it is a pretty embarrassing state of affairs and not for the first time we are the laughing stock of the hurling world.

Yeah well you see he couldn't name any individuals as while he trusts his source, he's no fool and conscious of libel laws. Nobody will sue the paper for that statement. Also the quote is "The Irish Examiner has been reliably informed a delegation of the 2012 squad approached the county board last week seeking a change in management following a players’ meeting.", so it wouldn't matter where individuals were yesterday.

Leave Mullane's name aside anyway, I would be disappointed if anyone from 2012 that wasn't there last year had a part to play in the decision.

Sam Swarek wrote: »

The players may become untouchable as in no decent manager would get involved this after justins heave, ryans original selectors and now Ryan, that's 3 management teams shown the door by the players.
I hope none of 2012 panel were involved in the meeting, they had no business being there or having a say, those lads were either dropped or retired before this year.

Well high profile managers won't anyway, though I think if there was more money available they might. O'Grady won't, but Allen might have had we had a JP MCManus in 2011. That's probably why Cusack's name is going around, don't think he has any experience so this would be a great job for him to get.

Spot on with the second part.

Sam Swarek wrote: »

hard to see how Mullane would have been involved, he's cleverer than that and he'd have known it wasn't his place to be involved in any meeting. as you said he was in Dublin yesterday and he wrote on the paper today that he was surprised with ryan leaving so that's surely the truth, he wouldn't have wrote he wasn't involved on a national paper if he indeed was involved. give the man the benefit here.

I looked up the Independant website but don't see any article by him on Ryan. Just one about yesterday's match.

lovelypoint

Sam Swarek wrote: »

I hope none of 2012 panel were involved in the meeting, they had no business being there or having a say, those lads were either dropped or retired before this year.

Personally, if I were the CB assessing whether to reappoint a manager whose contract tenure had just ended, I would talk talk to all and sundry involved under that manager, as well as of course evaluating team performances and results. I think the devil will be in the detail here, as to whether this was an unfair heave against the management team, or even a heave at all. For now, all we seem to have is a variety of varied accounts.

Deise_2012

Brad1234 wrote: »

Thanks for all you have done Michael but a change was needed.. Hurling people will see what is wrong bogeys on here will see a extra time loss to KK as an achievement..

He deserves respect for what he has done but his tactical awareness was clueless.. Throwing on Tony Browne v KK for Darragh fives who was probably MOTM was clueless at best and he was initially putting him on Full forward to lift the crowd haha..

We need a proper coach with good structure top class touch training like cork.. Our Template is Cork cause we always play like cork.. So there are in an all ireland final now are they really miles better than us.. No there not but they have a top class man in charge with an excellent backroom team and the players know exactly where they are going..

Now look at us.. At times this year when the game was there for the taking we looked clueless on the pitch or on the line.. he had Seamus Prender v KK as two in the inside line and he they were pinging balls from Corner to corner for a 33 year old to chase.. Can anyone not see the problem with that.. So you can huff and puff about how a lovely man ryan is and im sure he is but whats that got to do with waterford hurling? He brought fives back on then in extra time v KK and brought in Shane Walsh who couldnt walk?

V Clare they missed a rake of scores in the second half and he told them with 20 mins to go to push up the field and the game in the melting pot.. Come on people leave your personal agendas aside just cause he may have said hello to you on the street.. This is waterford hurling which we want to be the best.. if you want to be the best you need to have the best people around the group which we certainly dont..

For the record i have from great authority they didnt want him out just backroom team to be shaken up and next they heard he was gone...

Minors is another great example superb win yesterday but are they winning cause they are just that good cause to me (and i havent missed a game) they make the same mistakes over and over again.. What are the backroom team doing.. Going for goals when point is on.. Keepers puckouts are all over the place.. Some players unbelievably lucky to be still starting? over emphasis on handpassing and delivery to the forwards when its good scores come (prob 10 good balls out of at least 40 goes in)

So i dont care what club you are or who you're friendly with this is waterford hurling.. If had a family member who was involved and they were poor id tell him not cover it up cause i know him well.. Waterford hurling is bigger than anyone so leave your agendas aside.. Sick of people on here barking on about how Ryan was hung out to dry when he most certainly wasn't and i commend his work but he wasnt going to bring us any further..

Well you were against Ryan from day 1 so you must be absolutely delighted he's gone, you went very quiet on this after the Kilkenny game with the amount of people delighted with the performance. Darragh Fives was injured against Kilkenny you hardly thought he brought on tony browne just because he's tony browne.
You get me any manager in the country to coach this team, take away mullane and eoin kelly, then take into account the amount of people missing between working commitments, travelling and injuries and see how well they get on v Clare and Kilkenny.
Never met the man in my life, not from his local club either so you can stop talking about personal agendas.

But I have to agree with you with the minors, If that management team were any good they'd have beaten limerick in the 1st game, what kind of fellas are in charge at all? holding awards nights 2 days before the munster final sure what have they won yet this season? They still don't know what to do with the forward line, how Cormac Curran and Conor Gleeson don't start is beyond me. Roche and Farrell are too inconsistent but in fairness Roche wasn't fit enough yesterday, they'd want to sort out the goalkeeper puck outs too, hitting it straight to Kevin Daly who won't be allowed to get on the ball in the final. So many mistakes yesterday they'd seriously want to get it right for the final

chinguetti

Players come out of this bad whatever way you look at it. Telling the county board they don't want Ryan or changes to the backroom staff is not their job in my mind. And if it is, they could talk to Ryan and co. to his face and not be cowards about it and go behind his back. I would say he was in Croker yesterday but seemingly the players weren't if they were at a meeting. Ryan mightn't be perfect or suitable for every Waterford fan but he's been badly treated in this mess.

If the case is they didn't want the management, they must be blaming the management for every wide they hit in matches too i suppose. And to do it when the minors are playing in a semi final in Croke Park and the following day steal their thunder after a great victory, makes the players look petty in my mind. If they had won Munster or got to a semi final, they might have some purchase to look for changes.

Everyone one and their dog knows the county board is broke so getting a big name is out and there's no money for extras. Also John Mullane left the panel by his own accord so if he has anything to do with a players meeting, it should have ended in 2012. He's not part of the panel in 2013 so he should have no voice and should be told thus, regardless of how great a player he was for Waterford.

robopaddy

chinguetti wrote: »

Players come out of this bad whatever way you look at it. Telling the county board they don't want Ryan or changes to the backroom staff is not their job in my mind. And if it is, they could talk to Ryan and co. to his face and not be cowards about it and go behind his back. I would say he was in Croker yesterday but seemingly the players weren't if they were at a meeting. Ryan mightn't be perfect or suitable for every Waterford fan but he's been badly treated in this mess.

If the case is they didn't want the management, they must be blaming the management for every wide they hit in matches too i suppose. And to do it when the minors are playing in a semi final in Croke Park and the following day steal their thunder after a great victory, makes the players look petty in my mind. If they had won Munster or got to a semi final, they might have some purchase to look for changes.

Everyone one and their dog knows the county board is broke so getting a big name is out and there's no money for extras. Also John Mullane left the panel by his own accord so if he has anything to do with a players meeting, it should have ended in 2012. He's not part of the panel in 2013 so he should have no voice and should be told thus, regardless of how great a player he was for Waterford.

Agreed. I wonder did the players think they could kind of sneak into the ramada under the radar on sunday morning knowing that the counties eyes would be fixed on croker.

Also mullane calling for donal og cusack to be waterford manager in an article that cant have pencilled more than a few hours after ryan stepped down is crazily disrespectful. The whole thing just stinks for me

Mountainlad

robopaddy wrote: »

Agreed. I wonder did the players think they could kind of sneak into the ramada under the radar on sunday morning knowing that the counties eyes would be fixed on croker.

Also mullane calling for donal og cusack to be waterford manager in an article that cant have pencilled more than a few hours after ryan stepped down is crazily disrespectful. The whole thing just stinks for me

Did you see that article in the print version or what';s going on? Couldn't find an article on Waterford by him at all in the Independent, and to be honest I'd find it quite surprising that he would have his name attributed to an article so soon after it happened.

suitcasepink

Mountainlad wrote: »

Did you see that article in the print version or what';s going on? Couldn't find an article on Waterford by him at all in the Independent, and to be honest I'd find it quite surprising that he would have his name attributed to an article so soon after it happened.

This one?
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/donal-og-should-take-the-chance-to-lead-deise-29491299.html

Mountainlad

deise_girl wrote: »

This one?
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/donal-og-should-take-the-chance-to-lead-deise-29491299.html

Thank you I must be awfully blind altogether!

I guess they asked him to write the article, and they're paying him. There's not really too much in that to be honest.

suitcasepink

Mountainlad wrote: »

Thank you I must be awfully blind altogether!

I guess they asked him to write the article, and they're paying him. There's not really too much in that to be honest.

Haha its fine, Im just fantastic at finding everything :pac:
Other interesting pieces from twitter are that 30 players voted and only 18 actually voted for Scully to go
https://twitter.com/BrianJAFlannery/status/366973483151917057
And Im trying to remember who said it, could have been Flannery again but that less than half of the players actually attended the meeting and the others just rang in with their votes..
Bit sketchy that many wernt even bothered turning up for it isnt it?

TGV

I am not its just the players. Coming out of waterford v Clare u21 my old man was talking to another old guy about the senior performance this year and he said if we could get rid of Ryan we have a chance "sure he nevered played intercounty hurling how would he know how manage a team". Its hard to know who will be appointed can see anybody doing it for free and who ever comes in will have to assert his authority on the players....roll on next year

seananigans

bit on the 6.1 news, go to the 15.40 mark

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10189306/

deisedude

I think we are rightly fcuked now. No money for an outside manager and nobody remotely good enough in our own ranks

alllcounty

I'm totally disgusted at the behaviour of the 18 players. The majority of the supporters were happy we were back playing a better brand of hurling and were keen the current management would stay on. He had done exceptionally well given the players at our disposal this year. These 18 players have far too big egos for the good of waterford. They have done the county a disservice.

robopaddy

What a busy couple of days on the thread! I guess no one saw this coming its a pity it had to all happen the day the minors had their big win but I guess they felt there was no easy time to do what they did and the sooner it happened the sooner the search for a new man can start.

We can all be judgemental but we don't really know what the story is at this stage. All we know is its done and thats it but I would like to see someone from the players to make a statement they owe it to the waterford fans. If they do I think people will be more accepting and will move on.