Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

mccarthy37

Giveitfong wrote: »

Waterford 1-15 Limerick 0-14

Waterford came with a late flourish to stave off a Limerick fightback and carve a deserved victory in this moderately entertaining game at Fraher Field on Saturday night. It was a bitterly cold night with a strongish wind blowing towards the river end of the pitch, and the pitch, while bumpy, was in far better condition than the Walsh Park bog of the previous Sunday.

Waterford had first use of the wind and dominated the first half to an extent not reflected in their half time 1-9 to 0-2 lead, as they managed only one point from two penalties (for fouls on Brick Walsh and Maurice Shanahan), with Martin O’Neill firing the first one just over the bar and Pauric Mahony having his rather poor effort easily saved on the line.

Maurice Shanahan shipped a heavy leg injury early on but, although clearly hampered, he was left on the field until halfway through the second half at full forward, which wouldn’t be his favourite position. Martin O’Neill got an excellent point from play in the first minute but thereafter was dominated by Limerick’s forceful and powerful corner back, Tom Condon. Shane Casey also made little impression in the other corner apart from a well-taken goal which finished off a good passing movement down the left wing.

The best player on the field in the first half was Paul O’Brien at midfield, who repeatedly gained possession and ran at the Limerick defence. He looks much stronger now than when he was on the panel a few years ago.

Limerick did get an amount of possession but could make no impact on a defence which was well marshalled by Kevin Moran at centre back. Despite reports that he himself was injured, Philip Mahony replaced the injured Noel Connors half way through the first half.

Paul O’Brien was replaced by Dean Twomey at half time, which not only deprived Waterford of their best player but effectively reduced the team to fourteen men as, repeating his performance of the previous week against Clare, Twomey hardly struck a ball in the second half. Tomás Ryan also came on for Martin O’Neill.

Limerick brought on Shane Dowling and Kevin Downes for the second half. Dowling contributed little from general play but his excellent free taking solved a problem for Limerick and he hit six pointed frees in all. Kevin Downes had a much more marked impact on the play, frequently winning possession and driving at the Waterford defence, and notching two points from play.

With the wind at their back, Limerick dominated the first 20 minutes of the second half as the Waterford effort slackened noticeably, similar to the previous week. However, the home side sparked to life in the last ten minutes, with Kevin Moran reawakening from a period of down time, and Stephen Molumphy upping his game in midfield where he was getting some good assistance from Pauric Mahony who had switched with Twomey. Brick Walsh also came more into the game in the last quarter.

However, the key figure in Waterford’s late surge was Gavin O’Brien who had come on for Maurice Shanahan. O’Brien scored two excellent points from play and was also given the free taking job in the closing minutes which he also performed expertly, landing two further points.

Interestingly, both teams scored the equivalent of twelve points when playing with the wind. The big difference, therefore, was that Waterford managed six points against the wind to Limerick’s two, and that four point difference was the gap between the teams at the final whistle.

A feature of this game was that Limerick did not threaten the Waterford goal during the entire game apart from one first half shot that went narrowly wide. This meant that Iggy O’Regan got little to do, although I was impressed with his pucking out into the wind in the second half. The Waterford full back line was generally in control, with Philip Mahony impressing when he came on in the right corner, especially in the second half. Darragh Fives generally kept Limerick’s big full forward Brian Geary quiet; although Geary did manage to gain possession on a few occasion, little came of these situations. Apart from a couple of slips, Ringo Kearney had an excellent game in the other corner, with his superb ball control and ability to get past players repeatedly catching the eye.

Jamie Nagle got a lot of possession in the half line but his use of it was frequently very poor. Shane O’Sullivan worked hard on the other wing. Up front Brick Walsh was a bit in and out of the game, but his value to the team at centre forward is potentially enormous due to his ability to draw frees, hold up the ball under pressure before passing to colleagues, and especially his ability to break through the opposing half back line leading to the creation of goal chances.

Pauric Mahony’s radar was a bit off target on the night (four wides from six shots) but he did work hard. Shane Casey ended the night with a creditable 1-1, and should have had a second goal in the second half but missed the target from an angle having been set up at the end of a good Waterford passing movement. Tomás Ryan played a key role in that movement, scored an excellent over-the-shoulder point and caused some problems for the Limerick defence when he came out the field looking for ball late in the game.

Eoin McGrath was a late substitute for Shane Casey. Déise Girl contradicted herself when reporting in the same sentence that it was a typical Eoin McGrath performance and that he “wasn’t too bad”. I would agree with the first part of that sentence.

Waterford: Ian O’Regan; Noel Connors; Darragh Fives; Aidan Kearney; Jamie Nagle; Kevin Moran; Shane O’Sullivan; Stephen Molumphy; Paul O’Brien; Maurice Shanahan; Michael Walsh (0-1); Pauric Mahony (0-2, 0-1 from free); Martin O’Neill (0-5, 0-4 from frees); Seamus Prendergast; Shane Casey (1-1). Substitutes: Philip Mahony for Connors; Dean Twomey for O’Brien; Tomás Ryan (0-1) for O’Neill; Gavin O’Brien (0-4, 0-2 from frees) for Shanahan; Eoin McGrath for Casey.

I didn’t keep track of the Limerick team, but they had Nicky Quaid in goal and I think Shane O’Neill, Richie McCarthy and definitely Tom Condon in the full back. Wayne McNamara and Gavin O’Mahony were in the half back line. Conor Allis wore number 6 but seemed to play in midfield. He took the frees in the first half with poor results, and overall scored one free and one point from play. Donal O’Grady put in a typical hard working performance in midfield while James Ryan at No. 11 also got a lot of possession. Declan Hannon didn’t play. Graeme Mulcahy was at No 12 but failed to score. The full forward was named as Niall Moran by the announcer but I am pretty sure it was Brian Geary who also failed to score. Mark Carmody at No 13 got one point and Mikey Ryan on the other wing got two. David Moloney (for Condon) and James O’Brien came on in the second half in addition to Dowling and Downes.

Great report this was better than the Examiner. Hard luck to Dungarvan hope it doesn't effect their confidence for next weekend Nenagh will be red hot favorites but Colaiste have proven to be more than good enough.

lovelypoint

Mountainlad wrote: »

Maybe. He was probably worth the award though.

Anyway, all I was doing was answering a question of what I thought of him with an acknowledgment of an accolade awarded for his performances, something which is a more authoritive mark of his ability then my own personal opinion.

Agreed, I'm surprised anyone has to talk up young Barron, as he seems such a fantastic young prospect from what I've seen of him with the minor team. Great pair of wrists and excellent stickwork, he always seems to be a step or two ahead of his marker in any game I've seen him in, and of the minors, he would seem to be a very bright, if not the brightest prospect at the moment. Would love to see him make the step up to senior, and could see it happening in the next year or two, after he gets the leaving out of the way this year.

Mountainlad

solarith wrote: »

Time to drop it. They were proven right by virtue of the O'Gormans rejoining the football panel. It wasn't anyone getting their way, it was either they decided to leave or they were cut. So stop pretending to demand a pointless list.

Quoting a post from 4 days ago, before the news that they had moved back had broken, and then telling them to drop it is a bit of a contradiction to be fair.

And them moving back to the panel may mean there are 30 or 40 players better than them on the Waterford team (maybe) but it does by no means mean there are 250 players better than them, one of the most ridiculous statements posted on this page in the last 2 months and that is saying an awful lot.

lovelypoint

solarith wrote: »

They were proven right by virtue of the O'Gormans rejoining the football panel. It wasn't anyone getting their way, it was either they decided to leave or they were cut. So stop pretending to demand a pointless list.

I suppose one silver lining of the whole mishandling of fringe players like the O'Gormans by Ryan and co., is that the crusade by the anti-fourmilewater/o-gorman brigade can end. Hopefully when there is a trawl for unrealised intercounty talent again, we will not see the likes of the vitriol seen, again.

Cake Man

mccarthy37 wrote: »

Great report this was better than the Examiner. Hard luck to Dungarvan hope it doesn't effect their confidence for next weekend Nenagh will be red hot favorites but Colaiste have proven to be more than good enough.

Agree on the report, very good.
Hopefully CnD can do the business in the final, maybe Dungarvan CBS had one eye on it during the match against Doon but not to take away from them.
Wouldn't say Nenagh are raging hot favourites, infact CnD are favs to win (8/15) with Nenagh at 7/4 according to PP. I'm going to try make this game, anyone know how to get to the pitch in Cashel? Would it be more or less the same road you'd go to Thurles on?

crackinthewall

Cake Man wrote: »

Agree on the report, very good.
Hopefully CnD can do the business in the final, maybe Dungarvan CBS had one eye on it during the match against Doon but not to take away from them.
Wouldn't say Nenagh are raging hot favourites, infact CnD are favs to win (8/15) with Nenagh at 7/4 according to PP. I'm going to try make this game, anyone know how to get to the pitch in Cashel? Would it be more or less the same road you'd go to Thurles on?

pitch in cashel is very easy to find. go to clonmel and head for cashel through new inn. when u get to the motor way go into cashel across the flyover by the new petrol station/supermacs on your left. continue in that road (old main road) and the pitch is on your left before the town. there is plenty of parking there

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

but it does by no means mean there are 250 players better than them, one of the most ridiculous statements posted on this page in the last 2 months and that is saying an awful lot.

Your entitled to your opinion. If u look back youll see that ur the one who keeps brining it up I said that just once in the heat of the moment to get my point across.

Im just glad that the lads are gone back to the football and common sense has been restored.

deisebhoy17

Any ideas on a team to face cork?

Cake Man

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Any ideas on a team to face cork?

Wouldn't think it'll deviate too much from the team that lined out against Limerick last Saturday but if Connors and Maurice are struggling with injuries, a few switches will be enforced.
Wonder if Darragh Fives will stay FB or will Lawlor be back. Could even be Dec, Chris Ryan or Shane Fives aswell I suppose. Shane Walsh at FF instead of Shane Casey if he's fit. Nagle, Sully and Moran the HB line, POB and Molumphy midfield. Seamus, Brick and Paudric half forward line and then Martin O'Neill, Walsh (Casey if SW is out) and O'Halloran/T.Ryan.

Psychedelic

From WLR:

Noel Connors, Maurice Shanahan and Shane Walsh are all injury doubts for Waterford ahead of this weekend's league opener away to Cork. Manager Michael Ryan admits the team will be far from full strength owing to recent operations for Wayne Hutchison and Richie Foley.Liam Lawlor is also out for this weekend's game while John Mullane is unavailable over the next few weeks.

lovelypoint

Cake Man wrote: »

Wouldn't think it'll deviate too much from the team that lined out against Limerick last Saturday but if Connors and Maurice are struggling with injuries, a few switches will be enforced.
Wonder if Darragh Fives will stay FB or will Lawlor be back. Could even be Dec, Chris Ryan or Shane Fives aswell I suppose. Shane Walsh at FF instead of Shane Casey if he's fit. Nagle, Sully and Moran the HB line, POB and Molumphy midfield. Seamus, Brick and Paudric half forward line and then Martin O'Neill, Walsh (Casey if SW is out) and O'Halloran/T.Ryan.

The injuries would seem to narrow down the selection alright, and can see a team close to what you named. Personally, would prefer to Shane O'Sullivan midfield, with Molumphy going to corner forward with his usual remit to drift and ruck.

Hopefully a little experimentation with the wing backs too, as for a county allegedly awash in decent wingbacks, I cannot understand how Sully and Nagle are our best options there. The former seems to do his best work from midfield where he has the energy and vision to control the game, and the latter is not an intercounty standard player unfortunately, imo. Surely David O'Sullivan and Philip Mahony warrant their shot there during the league.

Pity about the injuries to Foley and Hutchinson, the league would have been a good opportunity to ascertain Foleys strongest position, as well as perhaps seeing if Hutchinsons immense performances at half back can be transferred to the county team.

Lastly, am I the only one who fears we are a little light at the very back, in terms of cover..

Mountainlad

lovelypoint wrote: »

The injuries would seem to narrow down the selection alright, and can see a team close to what you named. Personally, would prefer to Shane O'Sullivan midfield, with Molumphy going to corner forward with his usual remit to drift and ruck.

Hopefully a little experimentation with the wing backs too, as for a county allegedly awash in decent wingbacks, I cannot understand how Sully and Nagle are our best options there. The former seems to do his best work from midfield where he has the energy and vision to control the game, and the latter is not an intercounty standard player unfortunately, imo. Surely David O'Sullivan and Philip Mahony warrant their shot there during the league.

Pity about the injuries to Foley and Hutchinson, the league would have been a good opportunity to ascertain Foleys strongest position, as well as perhaps seeing if Hutchinsons immense performances at half back can be transferred to the county team.

Lastly, am I the only one who fears we are a little light at the very back, in terms of cover..

I'd agree about the lack of cover for the full back line.

Think that Stephen Daniels has to be looked at. Was listed to start v Clare, but didn't make an appearance. He's been a big prospect for a few years now, but has seen little or no Senior hurling action. Would have been my first choice as a replacement for Tony a few years ago.

deisebhoy17

A lot of injuries not good for our progress in the league. I agree that the full backline is still looking very unsettled and with connors and lawlor out it dosent help our cause. Mangement have to decide whether to start dec pender at fullback and go with the tried and tested or go take a punt on D Fives in there and give him a go.

lovelypoint

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

A lot of injuries not good for our progress in the league. I agree that the full backline is still looking very unsettled and with connors and lawlor out it dosent help our cause. Mangement have to decide whether to start dec pender at fullback and go with the tried and tested or go take a punt on D Fives in there and give him a go.

Oh god, for our sake and Declan's, don't mention him at fullback, neither he nor us deserve that fate!

In seriousness though, with Lawlor out, it gives us a chance to look at Darragh and Shane Fives, and hope we use the league to look at a realistic prospect or two at fullback..

lovelypoint

Mountainlad wrote: »

I'd agree about the lack of cover for the full back line.

Think that Stephen Daniels has to be looked at. Was listed to start v Clare, but didn't make an appearance. He's been a big prospect for a few years now, but has seen little or no Senior hurling action. Would have been my first choice as a replacement for Tony a few years ago.

Yes, would like to see more of Daniels too, and equally surprised we haven't done so yet. There seems to be a lot of promising wingbacks, but I don't see many of them getting a chance to date, alas..

deisebhoy17

lovelypoint wrote: »

Yes, would like to see more of Daniels too, and equally surprised we haven't done so yet. There seems to be a lot of promising wingbacks, but I don't see many of them getting a chance to date, alas..

Its up to daniels, philip mahony, hutchinson ect and the like to step it up. they havent been tried much by this or previous management because they havent stepped up to the plate simple as. the proof is in the pudding that Tony Browne is still knocking around and I mean that in the best possible way. He sees his place on the team and more luck to him but its a sure sign that the lads coming through aren't doing enough to nudge him out. like what happens in other counties

lovelypoint

deisebhoy17 wrote: »

Its up to daniels, philip mahony, hutchinson ect and the like to step it up. they havent been tried much by this or previous management because they havent stepped up to the plate simple as. the proof is in the pudding that Tony Browne is still knocking around and I mean that in the best possible way. He sees his place on the team and more luck to him but its a sure sign that the lads coming through aren't doing enough to nudge him out. like what happens in other counties

I agree with part of that alright, if lads aren't doing it in training, then it makes it difficult for management to take a punt on them, but I wonder if this overemphasis on training ground form is the best either. For example, seeing players we know won't cut it come championship (not naming any names) warranting selection on the team due to, I presume, training ground performances, shows the fallacy of basing team selection completely on performances in training.

Also the bigger issue here, is that of a half back line for the future, as Tony is not here forever, and with the likes of Brick relocated elsewhere, we are left with a halfback line that doesn't inspire as much confidence without Brick and Tony. Moran has yet to make centreback his own, should Brick not be there this year, and beyond Declan Prendergast, we hardly have any convincing and experienced players to step into the breach if needed.

Moreover, the fallacy of training ground form is exacerbated even more, when you look at the full back position, as after all, if there was someone putting in storming performances at full back, we would not have a problem there. But in the absence of someone standing out there, the only way we're going to make progress there is by looking at the best prospects we have, and over time shaping them into the fullback we need.

Is this total emphasis on training ground form just another example of how the mechanisms of other successful counties are not one-size-fits-all perhaps..

Deise Doodler

lovelypoint wrote: »

The injuries would seem to narrow down the selection alright, and can see a team close to what you named. Personally, would prefer to Shane O'Sullivan midfield, with Molumphy going to corner forward with his usual remit to drift and ruck.

Hopefully a little experimentation with the wing backs too, as for a county allegedly awash in decent wingbacks, I cannot understand how Sully and Nagle are our best options there. The former seems to do his best work from midfield where he has the energy and vision to control the game, and the latter is not an intercounty standard player unfortunately, imo. Surely David O'Sullivan and Philip Mahony warrant their shot there during the league.

Pity about the injuries to Foley and Hutchinson, the league would have been a good opportunity to ascertain Foleys strongest position, as well as perhaps seeing if Hutchinsons immense performances at half back can be transferred to the county team.

Lastly, am I the only one who fears we are a little light at the very back, in terms of cover..

Been a long time since we had a decent bit of cover at back line but think theres at least potential there for development at the moment in Ringo, 2 fives, Lawler and connors and Hutchinson ( one mistake last year and droped for it, dont think he got a fair deal)
Is David O Sullivan still on the panel, dont remember him getting any game time so far, was out of country for game on sat so perhaps he was listed on bench ?

Mountainlad

Deise Doodler wrote: »

Been a long time since we had a decent bit of cover at back line but think theres at least potential there for development at the moment in Ringo, 2 fives, Lawler and connors and Hutchinson ( one mistake last year and droped for it, dont think he got a fair deal)
Is David O Sullivan still on the panel, dont remember him getting any game time so far, was out of country for game on sat so perhaps he was listed on bench ?

Hutchison wasn't dropped, he broke his arm.

suitcasepink

Mountainlad wrote: »

Hutchison wasn't dropped, he broke his arm.

Going by his inability to walk on Saturday Id say hes after breaking his leg at some point the last few months too.. Or atleast got an operation

Deise Doodler

Mountainlad wrote: »

Hutchison wasn't dropped, he broke his arm.

Was talking about the full back position/starting 15 after the 1st goal by Downes in the Limerick game last year he was moved to wing back before being taken off, dont remember him involved after that, at what point did he break his arm ?

Mountainlad

Deise Doodler wrote: »

Was talking about the full back position/starting 15 after the 1st goal by Downes in the Limerick game last year he was moved to wing back before being taken off, dont remember him involved after that, at what point did he break his arm ?

I see what you're saying, but he may not have been dropped if he hadn't sustained the injury. About two weeks before the Munster Final. Dunno when he returned to training.

Deise Doodler

Mountainlad wrote: »

I see what you're saying, but he may not have been dropped if he hadn't sustained the injury. About two weeks before the Munster Final. Dunno when he returned to training.

Didnt realize that, thought he was another casualty of our fullback poison chalice,

Anyone hear of news of any cuts to panel for league ?

Mountainlad

Deise Doodler wrote: »

Didnt realize that, thought he was another casualty of our fullback poison chalice,

Anyone hear of news of any cuts to panel for league ?

Bit dramatic, no?

deisebhoy17

Mountainlad wrote: »

Bit dramatic, no?

We haven't had a proper full back since sean Cullinane retired in 2001, tha'ts well documented. imo Its one of the main reasons we didnt win an AI in the last decade. Any great team is backboned by a powerhouse of a fullback. Think of Brian Lohan, Diarmud O'Sullivan, Noel Hickey. Paul Curran of Tipp wouldnt be in that mould but still streets ahead of any FB weve had

Dickys Back Garden

Christy Ryan is a super half back and wasn't he also voted full back of the year last year in the county championship by the local newspapers? Surprised he hasn't been mentioned at all and he has seen very little game time so far. Kept Eoin Kelly scoreless from play against Passage last year, no mean feat. Should have benn tried more in my opinion.

hurler on de ditch

lovelypoint wrote: »

The injuries would seem to narrow down the selection alright, and can see a team close to what you named. Personally, would prefer to Shane O'Sullivan midfield, with Molumphy going to corner forward with his usual remit to drift and ruck.

Hopefully a little experimentation with the wing backs too, as for a county allegedly awash in decent wingbacks, I cannot understand how Sully and Nagle are our best options there. The former seems to do his best work from midfield where he has the energy and vision to control the game, and the latter is not an intercounty standard player unfortunately, imo. Surely David O'Sullivan and Philip Mahony warrant their shot there during the league.

Pity about the injuries to Foley and Hutchinson, the league would have been a good opportunity to ascertain Foleys strongest position, as well as perhaps seeing if Hutchinsons immense performances at half back can be transferred to the county team.

Lastly, am I the only one who fears we are a little light at the very back, in terms of cover..

jesus take one of our most influential and stick him in the corner ,christ your not davy fitz are ya

Deise Doodler

Mountainlad wrote: »

Bit dramatic, no?

Is it ? I rekon its not a position that many waterford players would relish being tried in at this stage, not saying that anyone of them would refuse the chance to be on the starting 15 but between ourselves and the press we have made what is naturally a unforgiving position almost unfillable,

Vicious cycle
The more we too and fro over the position the more the press pick upon it and other teams percive it as a weakness. The more they percive it as a weekness the more they seek to exploit it and the more presure the position come under. More pressure the more likely mistakes will be made, the more we chop and change

Think its time we settled on and specifically coached the position with 2-3 players and then like the keeper, pick the best and keep working with them, Its a long list over the last 10 with many fine players being deemed not suitable for the position , not saying that they all were but it is a long list

deisebhoy17

Dickys Back Garden wrote: »

Christy Ryan is a super half back and wasn't he also voted full back of the year last year in the county championship by the local newspapers? Surprised he hasn't been mentioned at all and he has seen very little game time so far. Kept Eoin Kelly scoreless from play against Passage last year, no mean feat. Should have benn tried more in my opinion.

Ah Hes okay. You could make a case for many club players keeping county stars scoreless in club games on different occasions. I think hes on the provisional panel but theres a lot of options at wing back as it is

mickmcl09

1st. Great Full Backs don't win All-Irelands, it takes 15-20 players on any given Sunday over the course of the summer.
2nd. Strangely enough it's really only been 2011 that other counties have looked at this weakness in the Waterford team and it's not that ye have a poor FB, it's the holes that can be punched around him so easily.
Any of the great FBs, their corner backs never wandered far and if their half backs wandered down the field, one midfielder would wander back into the hole.
3rd. All the great FBs from other counties bar KK, had a great GK behind them. Think Cusack, Fitzgerald, Cummins etc.

FB is not a poison chalice. The Fives, Lawlor, Connors ; that's 4 solid players with 2 FBs among them. Unfortunately, I think it's your HB line that's going to create the problems for the FB line in 2012.

The Brick is too good a player to be wasted at CF.
CFs generally don't score much. An effective CF is more important. How much primary possession can he get and distribute? How much can he reduce the effectiveness of the CB. Think John Power, Brendan Lynsky, Storey(Wexford), O'Connell(Clare), McCormack & McCarthy (Cork). I could go on.

The point is ye have players for the FB line. Brick at CB, Moran at WB and a choice of about 3 maybe for the other spot. With a proper HB LINE, the FB line will be a lot less prone to being taken apart.

With all that I said, I don't go to every club game, nor do I go down to see who is/is not going well at training and like it or not that's the basis for much of the team selection added to performances of the most recent outings.

Mountainlad

Dickys Back Garden wrote: »

Christy Ryan is a super half back and wasn't he also voted full back of the year last year in the county championship by the local newspapers? Surprised he hasn't been mentioned at all and he has seen very little game time so far. Kept Eoin Kelly scoreless from play against Passage last year, no mean feat. Should have benn tried more in my opinion.

Hey played the whole game against UCC, which is the only game I've seen him play. Didn't cover himself in glory have to say.

mickmcl09 wrote: »

1st. Great Full Backs don't win All-Irelands, it takes 15-20 players on any given Sunday over the course of the summer.
2nd. Strangely enough it's really only been 2011 that other counties have looked at this weakness in the Waterford team and it's not that ye have a poor FB, it's the holes that can be punched around him so easily.
Any of the great FBs, their corner backs never wandered far and if their half backs wandered down the field, one midfielder would wander back into the hole.
3rd. All the great FBs from other counties bar KK, had a great GK behind them. Think Cusack, Fitzgerald, Cummins etc.

FB is not a poison chalice. The Fives, Lawlor, Connors ; that's 4 solid players with 2 FBs among them. Unfortunately, I think it's your HB line that's going to create the problems for the FB line in 2012.

The Brick is too good a player to be wasted at CF.
CFs generally don't score much. An effective CF is more important. How much primary possession can he get and distribute? How much can he reduce the effectiveness of the CB. Think John Power, Brendan Lynsky, Storey(Wexford), O'Connell(Clare), McCormack & McCarthy (Cork). I could go on.

The point is ye have players for the FB line. Brick at CB, Moran at WB and a choice of about 3 maybe for the other spot. With a proper HB LINE, the FB line will be a lot less prone to being taken apart.

With all that I said, I don't go to every club game, nor do I go down to see who is/is not going well at training and like it or not that's the basis for much of the team selection added to performances of the most recent outings.

Definetly disagree with that, it's been well documented since the emergance of the Waterford team. 2003 against Cork we were badly exploited. 2004 against Kilkenny (it was more the entire full back line at that stage). Cork in 2007, and most notably Limerick in 2007 (all Ireland semi) and Kilkenny targeting Ringo in 2009.

mickmcl09

I know what your saying and I can't disagree with you, but the problem lies out further in most cases i.e. breaking the tackle in the HB line leaving one of the poor souls in the FB line in a 2 on 1 situation. Having said that I think 2009, which is most relevant to now, it wasn't a case of targeting any one in particular, it could have been any of the Waterford players. Ringo was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. KK tore all teams apart bar Tipp in 2009. Waterford as a whole were simply not at their level across the board.

It's like dealing with great forwards, sometimes it's more effective to cut the supply. Equally sometimes the easiest way to breach FB line is to breach the HB line first to make a suspect CB vulnerable on the double. There's no end to the tactical permutations.

Tactics are far from simple. Cody has the material, so I'm not sure how tactile he is. Daly and O'Grady are tacticians beyond belief. Davy & Justin before him to a lesser extent wouldn't exactly put the place on fire in that dept.

drumhills

Deise Doodler wrote: »

Didnt realize that, thought he was another casualty of our fullback poison chalice,

Anyone hear of news of any cuts to panel for league ?

Thomas and Maurice O Gorman,Seamus Lawlor,Jamie Barron,Brian O Sullivan,Brian O Halloran and some say Johm Mullane?

Mountainlad

drumhills wrote: »

Thomas and Maurice O Gorman,Seamus Lawlor,Jamie Barron,Brian O Sullivan,Brian O Halloran and some say Johm Mullane?

4 of them walked, Mullane is resting, and I heard nothing about O'Halloran.

Mountainlad

mickmcl09 wrote: »

I know what your saying and I can't disagree with you, but the problem lies out further in most cases i.e. breaking the tackle in the HB line leaving one of the poor souls in the FB line in a 2 on 1 situation. Having said that I think 2009, which is most relevant to now, it wasn't a case of targeting any one in particular, it could have been any of the Waterford players. Ringo was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. KK tore all teams apart bar Tipp in 2009. Waterford as a whole were simply not at their level across the board.

It's like dealing with great forwards, sometimes it's more effective to cut the supply. Equally sometimes the easiest way to breach FB line is to breach the HB line first to make a suspect CB vulnerable on the double. There's no end to the tactical permutations.

Tactics are far from simple. Cody has the material, so I'm not sure how tactile he is. Daly and O'Grady are tacticians beyond belief. Davy & Justin before him to a lesser extent wouldn't exactly put the place on fire in that dept.

In my opinion, it's the half forward line over the last few years has been the main problem for the fullback line. The lack of ball being won up there meant that their was a constant onslaught of pressure on our backline, and unless you have really 6 phenomenal defenders you're going to wilt at some stage.

That said, it's undeniable that Kilkenny put Shefflin on Ringo when he was full back because they saw a weakness, and Shefflin scored 1-2 and setup a goal for the 20-25 minutes that Ringo was left in there.

Fullback is an immensely difficult place to play and in this day and age with managers coming up with plenty of effective ways to exploit full backs you need a counter plan to give cover. Coming up with one of those is very difficult it must be said, and certainly taking one of your forwards and throwing them in the backline doesn't seem to work to me anyway. Daly uses it and while you might say it has helped Dublin in their recent drastic improvement, I think any further progress can be limited with an adopted tactic such as that.

hardybuck

Team announcement tonight I presume? Sean Og is back for Cork I see.

Talking to a few Cork lads, they are very optimistic for Sat night. Jimmy Barry Murphy back at the helm and a big crowd in Pairc Ui Rinn should swing things in their favour you'd think.

HillFarmer

Cork team named in An Fear Rua

Saturday night at 7pm in Páirc Uí Rinn will be as follows:

1. Donal Og Cusack
Cloyne

... 2. Brian Murphy 2. Stephen McDonnell 4. Shane O'Neill
Bride Rovers Glen Rovers Bishopstown

5. John Gardiner 6. Ross Cashman 7. William Egan
Na Piarsaigh Kilbrittain Kilbrin

8. Sean Óg Ó hAilpín 9. Darren Sweetnam
Na Piarsaigh Dohenys

10. Conor Lehane 11. Pa Cronin 12. Cathal Naughton
Midleton Bishopstown Newtownshandrum

13. Patrick Horgan 14. Paudie O'Sullivan 15. Ben O'Connor
Glen Rovers Cloyne Newtownshandrum


Sean og midfield, interesting. New full back and centre back. Still think going on our current form this Cork team will should win it.

HillFarmer

Any word when the Waterford team will be named?

mickmcl09

Mountainlad wrote: »

In my opinion, it's the half forward line over the last few years has been the main problem for the fullback line. The lack of ball being won up there meant that their was a constant onslaught of pressure on our backline, and unless you have really 6 phenomenal defenders you're going to wilt at some stage.

That said, it's undeniable that Kilkenny put Shefflin on Ringo when he was full back because they saw a weakness, and Shefflin scored 1-2 and setup a goal for the 20-25 minutes that Ringo was left in there.

Fullback is an immensely difficult place to play and in this day and age with managers coming up with plenty of effective ways to exploit full backs you need a counter plan to give cover. Coming up with one of those is very difficult it must be said, and certainly taking one of your forwards and throwing them in the backline doesn't seem to work to me anyway. Daly uses it and while you might say it has helped Dublin in their recent drastic improvement, I think any further progress can be limited with an adopted tactic such as that.

We could debate this for a while, but you'll find that the majority of goals (not all obviously) in hurling are scored via assists of less than 30 metres and not long ball.

My point is that almost as much ball is going to come down the field with Brick at CF. He's just such a high calibre CB, it's a waste of team resources. Having said that I can't argue with the Mgt's train of thought ie trying out HBs in the HF line.
In an earlier post I put forward a suggested back line. That leaves alot of backs that could be tried out in the HF line, just don't use one of the best HBs in a position where he might not be any more effective than one of the Prendergasts, who, while it might be a little late in their careers now, how nobody really honed them into big time ball getters to cause simple havoc surprised me. Maybe nobody else saw the potential, maybe you simply couldn't turn them into that type of hurler, I don't know.

On the subject of Daly. Tactics are far more elaborate than dropping a forward in the middle of 6 backs. A tactic that I believe ruined Waterford by the way as backs got too used of having this luxury and weren't able to deal with a straight 6 on 6 when they reverted to a straight 15.

Tactics are less about being shoulder to shoulder in every part of the pitch now. Some CBs stand a couple of yards behind CFs or CF operates 55m out instead of 45. Some CFs ramble and CBs have to make calculated decisions. Midfielders the same. Fennelly will operate closer to the attacking 65 for most of a match and when the opportunity arises he's splitting down the middle. Others will operate in front, beside or behind a CB. Some WBs sit up to 10 metres behind the 45 to stifle a corner forward from operating.
Theres a diamond shape from within, is a scoring zone. Back lines set themselves up to be within that zone as much as possible it has a 2 fold advantage. Backs on the opposition tend to drive balls into no scoring zones hence the forwards have to work harder for scores. It the ball is dropped into scoring zones, the area tends to be more condensed than a conventional set up making it more difficult for forwards to operate in.

There's so much more to a game now. Listening to Dignan, Flynn and 1 or 2 more on the Sunday Game about basic 15 man games makes me cringe at their inability to analyse games fully, picking up on tit bits to justify their analysis.

The biggest problem for most teams now is a managements inability to man manage, to pull certain individuals and groups of players aside to give them feed back on their game and more importantly what to do differently the next time. This reminds me of Davy's half-time chat with LIT in a fitzgibbon match. Ya, he's OTT (one GAA columnist I know personally, calls it passion), but it's all that is wrong with managing a team. You can't just speak to 15 lads in general terms and expect results, you have to be specific in what you say, who you say it too and how you say it (for fear they head off in a tiff :rolleyes:)

I'd like to see Waterford do well this year, not at Clare's expense mind. But maybe to put some of the big teams that will inevitably be in the qualifiers to the sword.

Corks team looks interesting for the weekend too. Alot of eyes will be on Séan Og no doubt.

Deise Doodler

Mountainlad wrote: »

In my opinion, it's the half forward line over the last few years has been the main problem for the fullback line. The lack of ball being won up there meant that their was a constant onslaught of pressure on our backline, and unless you have really 6 phenomenal defenders you're going to wilt at some stage.

That said, it's undeniable that Kilkenny put Shefflin on Ringo when he was full back because they saw a weakness, and Shefflin scored 1-2 and setup a goal for the 20-25 minutes that Ringo was left in there.

Fullback is an immensely difficult place to play and in this day and age with managers coming up with plenty of effective ways to exploit full backs you need a counter plan to give cover. Coming up with one of those is very difficult it must be said, and certainly taking one of your forwards and throwing them in the backline doesn't seem to work to me anyway. Daly uses it and while you might say it has helped Dublin in their recent drastic improvement, I think any further progress can be limited with an adopted tactic such as that.

Agree 100% the half forward line has been the main problem, for the very reasons you outline, As regards our full back,teams will always look for a weakness , I just think that we have made to much of it, also no matter how good you full back it is the support of the corner and halfbacks droping backand covering fast enough that will often make the difference

nexusg

Mountainlad wrote: »

drumhills wrote: »

Thomas and Maurice O Gorman,Seamus Lawlor,Jamie Barron,Brian O Sullivan,Brian O Halloran and some say Johm Mullane?

4 of them walked, Mullane is resting, and I heard nothing about O'Halloran.

Brian O'Halloran is supposed to be injured knees are bad. Sounds serious that he's pulled out of the squad. Poor guy. Was hoping he'd start showing his potential that everybody knows he has!

lovelypoint

hurler on de ditch wrote: »

jesus take one of our most influential and stick him in the corner ,christ your not davy fitz are ya

Ha ha, hardly. After his declining form of the last year or two, the jury is out for me on Molumphy. I would love to see him rediscover his form of old, as he has few peers when it comes to winning dirty ball. He always chipped in with a few scores and select passes, both elements absent from his game in the last year or two under Davy.

A re-energised Molumphy is vital for the cause, but for now perhaps take the pressure off, start him at corner forward, let him roam and drift and re-build some form. Plus, Molumphy always seems his best, drifting back from a forward position as breaks in the play present themselves. Doesn't seem to have the same influence as a straight midfielder, and definitely best at either wing or corner forward, for me. In any case, for my money

HillFarmer

I'll have a go at a team Ryan might pick for tomorrow night.

Wouldnt be my choice, think Brick should have been left Center back.

Iggy

Dec Pender/P mahony, Darragh Fives, Ringo Kearney
Shane Sull, Kevin Moran, Jamie Nagle,

Paul O'Brien,Molomphy,

Seamy Pender, Brick, Paudie Mahony
Martin O Neil ? Shane Casey

DOnt even know who we could put in Full forward if Shane walsh is out.
Anyone know how long Maurice will be out for.?

Mountainlad

HillFarmer wrote: »

I'll have a go at a team Ryan might pick for tomorrow night.

Wouldnt be my choice, think Brick should have been left Center back.

Iggy

Dec Pender/P mahony, Darragh Fives, Ringo Kearney
Shane Sull, Kevin Moran, Jamie Nagle,

Paul O'Brien,Molomphy,

Seamy Pender, Brick, Paudie Mahony
Martin O Neil ? Shane Casey

DOnt even know who we could put in Full forward if Shane walsh is out.
Anyone know how long Maurice will be out for.?

Seamus will almost certainly be full forward meaning Twomey, Nevin or possibly Gavin O'Brien wing forward.

UCD are out of the colleges as well so I wonder will David O'Sullivan feature.

hardybuck

Mountainlad wrote: »

Seamus will almost certainly be full forward meaning Twomey, Nevin or possibly Gavin O'Brien wing forward.

UCD are out of the colleges as well so I wonder will David O'Sullivan feature.

Was David O'Sullivan dropped though? Whats the story with Connors as well with regard to availability?

lovelypoint

Listening to wlr a little while ago, there seems to be a number of injury doubts ahead of tomorrow night, with Noel Connors, Maurice Shanahan, and Shane Walsh joining Liam Lawlor and Wayne Hutchinson on the injured list. If talk of something broken is true, then I imagine Maurice is out for a while, with Shane Walsh seeming the most likely to make it for Saturday. I believe Ringo is a doubt too.

Seems injury could force managements hand with regard to experimenting and trying new players out during the league. I suppose that means a new face or two in the full back line, which I feel is a good thing as cover is light there. Also if Shane Walsh is out, then someone else at full forward, although in this case we're probably looking at Seamus up there, which means a few new faces at wing forward, which is also no harm.

Hopefully sense will prevail, and we will see a few players getting a chance at wing back too during the league..

hurler on de ditch

HillFarmer wrote: »

I'll have a go at a team Ryan might pick for tomorrow night.

Wouldnt be my choice, think Brick should have been left Center back.

Iggy

Dec Pender/P mahony, Darragh Fives, Ringo Kearney
Shane Sull, Kevin Moran, Jamie Nagle,

Paul O'Brien,Molomphy,

Seamy Pender, Brick, Paudie Mahony
Martin O Neil ? Shane Casey

DOnt even know who we could put in Full forward if Shane walsh is out.
Anyone know how long Maurice will be out for.?

well done there name a team with 14 players clap clap

Mountainlad

hardybuck wrote: »

Was David O'Sullivan dropped though? Whats the story with Connors as well with regard to availability?

David O'Sullivan? Be stunned if he was.

We're also missing Foley and Mullane, dunno what the story with Daniels is.

Mountainlad

Anyone have the team?

The blue blaa

Daniel's involved with C.I.T so is not available.