RPT contract entitlement to hours?

rockymountain

Hi everyone

First post and I'm looking for some advice if anyone can help. My problem is the following: I've been teaching gepgraphy in a school which is relatively small for the last 2 years on an RPT contract. I was offered an RPT contract again this year. There was only one other geography teacher in the school, he was CID, but was on career break for the last 3 years and resigned his job this summer. The school then advertised the RPT hours and a new teacher was employed (not the teacher covering the career break).

My question is am I entitled to hours before this new teacher, I have been on about 18 hours for the last 2 years, now there are about 20/21 hours available...There will be some classes that the two of us are timetabled opposite one-another but who is entitled to the remaining 2 or so hours when both of us are free? (The problem is that if he gets the hours my hours will fall under the magical number of 18!) I would imagine that it should be me, considering that I have already worked in the school for the last 2 years, do I have any rights here?

Thanks for any replies

rainbowtrout

Hard to say really. Have you been told how many hours you will have when you go back next week? When the job was advertised did it say in the advertisement how many hours the job would be for?

rockymountain

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Hard to say really. Have you been told how many hours you will have when you go back next week? When the job was advertised did it say in the advertisement how many hours the job would be for?

Thanks for the reply. No I havn't been told how many hours I have for the coming year, I have asked but been fobbed off, which I feel is totally unfair, the job advertised was 22 hrs approx. RPT...but surely if I have been doing the job successfully for the past few years and now some hours are available I should get them before a new teacher...is there not any legislation to protect current teachers...I'm really worried about the situation...if the CID teacher was coming back I would understand the reduction in my hours but to see a new teacher (no personal offence to him intended) come along and get more hours than me without any valid reason would really upset me...

theLuggage

rockymountain wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. No I havn't been told how many hours I have for the coming year, I have asked but been fobbed off, which I feel is totally unfair, the job advertised was 22 hrs approx. RPT...but surely if I have been doing the job successfully for the past few years and now some hours are available I should get them before a new teacher...is there not any legislation to protect current teachers...I'm really worried about the situation...if the CID teacher was coming back I would understand the reduction in my hours but to see a new teacher (no personal offence to him intended) come along and get more hours than me without any valid reason would really upset me...

No harm in asking your union rep their opinion. I was in a position similar (but reversed!) where another teacher would always get hours above me as they had exact same subjects but were in the school longer than me. Principal told me that this teacher would have a good case if hours went to me first, that unions favour seniority. Seems to me this could be position you are in?

Is the job advertised just for Geography? Do you know if the new person has additional or different subjects to you?

rockymountain

theLuggage wrote: »

No harm in asking your union rep their opinion. I was in a position similar (but reversed!) where another teacher would always get hours above me as they had exact same subjects but were in the school longer than me. Principal told me that this teacher would have a good case if hours went to me first, that unions favour seniority. Seems to me this could be position you are in?

Is the job advertised just for Geography? Do you know if the new person has additional or different subjects to you?

Thanks, I'm definitely going to get onto the union rep in the morning, I have been looking into it a little and it seems as if I should get the surplus hours first, especially as the new teacher will still have 16/17 hours.

The job that was advertised was just for geography and we will both be teaching only geography (coincidentially we both have the same second dubject as well!). It is really putting a lot of extra worry on me during the last few days before going back, as I feel I am totally in the dark as to what will happen.

Boober Fraggle

Did you apply for the 22 hours? Maybe your principal expected you to?

rockymountain

Boober Fraggle wrote: »

Did you apply for the 22 hours? Maybe your principal expected you to?

No I did'nt apply, I did'nt think I needed to seeing as I already had an RPT contract for the last two years and had signed my contract for this year as well when the post was advertised. I really do not know what to do now though, I assumed that I would be given the surplus hours because of that but now I'm seriously worried.

theLuggage

rockymountain wrote: »

Thanks, I'm definitely going to get onto the union rep in the morning, I have been looking into it a little and it seems as if I should get the surplus hours first, especially as the new teacher will still have 16/17 hours.

The job that was advertised was just for geography and we will both be teaching only geography (coincidentially we both have the same second dubject as well!). It is really putting a lot of extra worry on me during the last few days before going back, as I feel I am totally in the dark as to what will happen.

I know how that feels! If you have signed your contract for this year, was there no mention of your hours in it? We usually have to sign and fill in bits of another form that gets sent to Dept and that usually states your hours (it's not a contract can't remember what the form is. I'm in community and comp sector so maybe it's to do with that either?) In any case could you not have a word with your principal and ask should you formally apply or will the extra hours go to you. Be upfront and say exactly what you are looking for. If I have learned anything from my time in teaching it's that those who push often get. What did your union rep say?

Boober Fraggle

I think if you're on 18 hours RPT, and there were 21/22 hours advertised, the principal might have thought you were happy enough on your 18 when you didn't apply for them.

Timetables are probably done up at this stage, but wouldn't be any harm asking your principal about it anyway.

linguist

Even the fact that the teacher covering the career break didn't get the job would surprise me in this case. I can perfectly understand why the OP is apprehensive.

Certainly my understanding would be that in this scenario incumbent teachers, particularly those who have their own hours, would move up and any remaining hours would be advertised and offered to the new appointee. Moreover, my understanding is that the Department has a circular that very clearly states that principals must make every effort to offer part-time teachers full time work before recruiting anyone else.

The contracted hours you get in June or over the summer cannot be decreased but they can be increased very easily. Right up to the first Monday after the October mid-term, additional hours that become available can be electronically added to the Department's payroll as RPT hours and paid for the whole year including the holidays. This is routine and indeed it's what I'm hoping to see happen to my own 19 hrs over the next month or so.

The only grounds I could see for you not getting the better job is if the post advertised was for a different subject combination than you have. Was that the case?

rockymountain

linguist wrote: »

Even the fact that the teacher covering the career break didn't get the job would surprise me in this case. I can perfectly understand why the OP is apprehensive.

Certainly my understanding would be that in this scenario incumbent teachers, particularly those who have their own hours, would move up and any remaining hours would be advertised and offered to the new appointee. Moreover, my understanding is that the Department has a circular that very clearly states that principals must make every effort to offer part-time teachers full time work before recruiting anyone else.

The contracted hours you get in June or over the summer cannot be decreased but they can be increased very easily. Right up to the first Monday after the October mid-term, additional hours that become available can be electronically added to the Department's payroll as RPT hours and paid for the whole year including the holidays. This is routine and indeed it's what I'm hoping to see happen to my own 19 hrs over the next month or so.

The only grounds I could see for you not getting the better job is if the post advertised was for a different subject combination than you have. Was that the case?

We will both be teaching only geography in the school and the post advertised was for geography only 22 hrs...I expected that the teacher covering the career break would probably be given the hours, but that I would be offered the 22 hours first and she be given what was left. I thought exactly what you have said linguist that being on my own hours I would move up to as close as possible to 22 and that the new appointee would be offered the remaining hours.

I did talk to my union rep this morning and he says there is nothing I can do about it, that I should have applied for the job advertised and that the best I can hope for is to hold onto my own hours, that the 22 were not mine in the first place and now belong to the new employee. I'm not sure if this is correct though.

I have looked into the issue of the Deparrtment circular also myself linguist and it does seem as if principals must make every effort to offer part-time teachers full time work before recruiting anyone else. I have found the following:

'Department Circular 0034/2009 directs management, where possible, to offer available teaching hours to part-time teachers who are not on full hours. So, if hours become available in the subjects you are qualified to teach, you should be considered for these hours. If these hours meet CID criteria and are viable, they may be added to your CID in future.'

'I’ve heard that if hours become available in a school they should be offered to part-time teachers already on staff – is there a requirement for management to do that?
There is a Department of Education and Skills circular that says schools should seek to increase the hours of part-time teachers where possible. Because it is covered in a Department circular, it is a requirement on the school. This is backed up by European legislation. The circular has a curricular needs caveat, but management should examine the situation carefully and make every effort to increase part-time hours when they can.'

Anyone have any ideas, am I interpreting the above properly, I'm really confused and I feel as if I'm running out of time..

linguist

Well there are union reps and union reps. You really need to get onto an industrial relations rep in head office for this kind of question. Assuming you spoke to one of your colleagues who is the school steward (sorry if I'm getting this wrong) he/she should have offered to discuss it with the Principal or indeed accompany you to a meeting with the Principal. I think it would be better though for you to discuss the facts with a professional industrial relations official.

As regards the best you can hope for being to hold onto your own hours, assuming you have signed a contract, that's rubbish. Those hours are yours at least for this school year. A contract is a contract! Don't let this go, it smacks of very sharp practice. To be honest, if I were working in a school like that, I'd probably leave if a better job came up. Talk about how not to manage a staff!

rockymountain

Yes it was a local rep that I spoke to, so I will definitely get onto head office in the morning. When I signed my contract it did not state on it how many hours I have been assigned this year (it didn't give the hours last year or the year before that either) and all of my colleagues are the same so I assume it is standard practice. So I don't yet know how many hours I will have next week, and have not been given a timetable.

I would really love to get a better job but unfortunately nothing has come up, I would probably even consider fewer hours in another school for peace of mind and a better working atmosphere. The only positive is that it is a VEC school so if I get my CID I might be able to transfer to another VEC school.

Do I need to get the whole situation dealt with before our timetables are handed out on Thursday to have a chance of getting the hours or is there a possibility that if I'm interpreting the Department circular properly and am entitled to the hours that I could get them in a few weeks/ months time?

theLuggage

linguist wrote: »

Well there are union reps and union reps. You really need to get onto an industrial relations rep in head office for this kind of question. Assuming you spoke to one of your colleagues who is the school steward (sorry if I'm getting this wrong) he/she should have offered to discuss it with the Principal or indeed accompany you to a meeting with the Principal. I think it would be better though for you to discuss the facts with a professional industrial relations official.

As regards the best you can hope for being to hold onto your own hours, assuming you have signed a contract, that's rubbish. Those hours are yours at least for this school year. A contract is a contract! Don't let this go, it smacks of very sharp practice. To be honest, if I were working in a school like that, I'd probably leave if a better job came up. Talk about how not to manage a staff!

+1 on all this. Your local rep sounds like they don't really have a clue - I'm surprised they didn't advise you to go to your industrial relation rep themselves. The shop steward in my school always told me to consult in case they knew anything more than she did.

I believe you are interpreting the circular properly - however if does say "where possible" and "be considered" which implies any hours that come up aren't definitely yours. Your principal should have a proper reason though why they are not going to you - especially as you say your subject and second subject match the new persons exactly.

rockymountain

I have been looking at those words 'where possible' and 'be considered' all day trying to interpret them to be honest (I never thought I would examine any Department circular in such detail!). In my school we would both work the same timetabled classes and then there are some teaching periods where only one of us will be teaching while the other teacher is free, so it should be possible to give me more of the classes where only one teacher is needed to fill up my timetable if the principal wanted to...

The notion of 'be considered' I'm not sure exactly what to make of it, I 'm not sure if there is a reason why I shouldn't be considered when I'm doing a good job.

Getting onto union head office will hopefully clarify things for me...its an awful start to the year...

rainbowtrout

The other thing is someone else suggested that you should have applied for the job, but I don't see why. I'm assuming you are on an RPT contract and these 22 hours are also being offered on an RPT contract so the nature of the work is the same. If it had been offered as a permanent contract then you would have had to apply for it.

Call the branch secretary for your county and see what they have to say.

rockymountain

I just checked there to be sure and it was advertised as 22 hrs.approx. RPT and I am RPT too. It was actually the area branch secretary that I spoke to this morning and who told me that I should have applied for the 22 hr. job and should concentrate on keeping my own hours etc...I did email the union head office as well last Friday evening and an Assistant General Secretary of the union, who I had previously met at a branch meeting but I have had no replies from anyone but the area branch secretary today.

Should I just ring head office tomorrow morning and ask to speak to an industrial relations rep., will there be someone available to speak to me? I have no experience at all of dealing with anyone in the union other than my experience this morning...

rainbowtrout

rockymountain wrote: »

I just checked there to be sure and it was advertised as 22 hrs.approx. RPT and I am RPT too. It was actually the area branch secretary that I spoke to this morning and who told me that I should have applied for the 22 hr. job and should concentrate on keeping my own hours etc...I did email the union head office as well last Friday evening and an Assistant General Secretary of the union, who I had previously met at a branch meeting but I have had no replies from anyone but the area branch secretary today.

Should I just ring head office tomorrow morning and ask to speak to an industrial relations rep., will there be someone available to speak to me? I have no experience at all of dealing with anyone in the union other than my experience this morning...

I'm no expert, but it sounds like you were being fobbed off. What union rep of any type should tell you to concentrate on what you have when you could legitimately have the opportunity to improve your hours? Again you shouldn't have to apply for another RPT job in your school when you are already RPT.

If you ring head office tomorrow, it might be best to explain that you've already spoken with the area rep who was not able to give you a satisfactory answer to your query. Otherwise you'll probably be told to contact the area rep.

Maybe try your area rep first tomorrow before you try head office.

rockymountain

Just got my hours from the school, I have under 17 and the new appointee has 21! I'm still waiting for the union to get back to me. I'm so angry, I rang the school but principal and deputy are quite obviously avoiding my calls, emailed but got no reply and eventually contacted the VEC who are supposed to ring me back.

ed06

same position as you. was told to envoke stage one of grievance procedure and go from there. i applied for the job tho and didnt get interview. still dont know if u applied. id suss the grievance procedure approach

Manu901

Hi,

You are working it out well. Everything will fall in place and all the worries you have will vanish in course of time. If you want to defend you, you better learn all the circulars and other details rather than leaving for the union rep. You better study it and advise him what to do. Wish you all the best.

Manu

theLuggage

rockymountain wrote: »

Just got my hours from the school, I have under 17 and the new appointee has 21! I'm still waiting for the union to get back to me. I'm so angry, I rang the school but principal and deputy are quite obviously avoiding my calls, emailed but got no reply and eventually contacted the VEC who are supposed to ring me back.

That's awful for you. Perhaps you could call out to the school when you know the principal will be there (try asking the secretary when he's in - its the ladies in our office who would know that in our school). I find the fact that they seem to be avoiding you a terrible way to treat an employee. As another poster said you'd be better looking for job somewhere else but unfortunately as you know jobs are hard to come by. So even though you might be furious, don't burn any bridges - you may be working in that school for quite some time.

Keep on at the union too - don't wait for them to ring, ring tomorrow morning and if necessary tomorrow afternoon. Good luck!

rockymountain

Thank you all so much for the advice and support. I have just found out that the new appointee has been given 16.5 hours and not 21, there appears to have been a drop in numbers etc...It still does not change my original argument however, as I still maintain that I should have been offered the available hours to bring up my hours before appointing anyone else. (I do feel sorry for the other teacher who was told he would have 22hrs and is now being given 16.5)

I will contact the union rep again tomorrow morning and take it from there...

dambarude

Some teachers really are getting it left, right and centre. If you can't trust the principal of a school you've taught in I don't know who you can.

rockymountain

dambarude wrote: »

Some teachers really are getting it left, right and centre. If you can't trust the principal of a school you've taught in I don't know who you can.

I think in this situation both myself and the new appointee are being wronged. To be honest it is not the first or even second time that something like this has happened in my school, I was kind of expecting it at some stage. The policy seems to be employ as many teachers as possible, keep them all on low hours and then demand that they do x and y to keep the hours they have. Dictatorship is the only word I could use to describe it, the only thing that amazes me is that the VEC has not stepped in.

I have seen other teachers in the school back down but I will not do so, I have a feeling though that there will be a very bitter and exhausting battle ahead.

rainbowtrout

rockymountain wrote: »

I think in this situation both myself and the new appointee are being wronged. To be honest it is not the first or even second time that something like this has happened in my school, I was kind of expecting it at some stage. The policy seems to be employ as many teachers as possible, keep them all on low hours and then demand that they do x and y to keep the hours they have. Dictatorship is the only word I could use to describe it, the only thing that amazes me is that the VEC has not stepped in.

I have seen other teachers in the school back down but I will not do so, I have a feeling though that there will be a very bitter and exhausting battle ahead.

Sounds like you work in a similar place to me

rockymountain

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Sounds like you work in a similar place to me

I do think (or hope!:rolleyes:) that schools like ours are in the minority though. Do you have a permanent post? I really wish I had a CID because the minute I get it I will apply for a transfer, I don't care where I go, it can't be worse than the school I'm in!

I do sometimes think I'd be better off on social welfare than dealing with the abuse dished out by my principal, byt on principle (excuse the pun:p) I won't resign.

jonseyblub

OP This is a dreadful situation to be in and I do feel very sorry for you. Could I just offer you a word of caution before this gets messy between yourself and management. I am in no way taking their side because the least they could have done is to let you know what the situation is and put you straight. That is totally wrong. However I've done the timetable in my school for the last 6 years (it's a post I have )and I have to admit this year has got to be the worst ever in terms of allocation of teachers. The situation is constantly changing and the department are being ruthless this year and appeals for hours are still been fought up and down the country as we speak. I've timetabled one teacher this year without the guarantee from the Department that the hours are there. In other words if they say no i'll be starting all over again!!. Your school may be in a situation where when the teacher resigned his post the department said you cannot have full hours but only 16 and as a result other teachers hours are being rejigged. You may find on Thursday that the number of hours for Geography have been decreased (in our case our 3rd year English classes have gone from 5 to 4 periods a week as a result of losing a teacher) in which case your principal may have been fighting with the department all summer to retain the hours you have.

All I'm saying is there may be a perfectly plausible reason for your situation (I could be totally be way off the mark here) so just get all the info you can before you go gung-ho into your principal because as another poster said earlier you do have to work with him/her whether you like it or not.

rockymountain

jonseyblub wrote: »

OP This is a dreadful situation to be in and I do feel very sorry for you. Could I just offer you a word of caution before this gets messy between yourself and management. I am in no way taking their side because the least they could have done is to let you know what the situation is and put you straight. That is totally wrong. However I've done the timetable in my school for the last 6 years (it's a post I have )and I have to admit this year has got to be the worst ever in terms of allocation of teachers. The situation is constantly changing and the department are being ruthless this year and appeals for hours are still been fought up and down the country as we speak. I've timetabled one teacher this year without the guarantee from the Department that the hours are there. In other words if they say no i'll be starting all over again!!. Your school may be in a situation where when the teacher resigned his post the department said you cannot have full hours but only 16 and as a result other teachers hours are being rejigged. You may find on Thursday that the number of hours for Geography have been decreased (in our case our 3rd year English classes have gone from 5 to 4 periods a week as a result of losing a teacher) in which case your principal may have been fighting with the department all summer to retain the hours you have.

All I'm saying is there may be a perfectly plausible reason for your situation (I could be totally be way off the mark here) so just get all the info you can before you go gung-ho into your principal because as another poster said earlier you do have to work with him/her whether you like it or not.

Hi jonseyblub, thanks for the reply. You have given me faith in the 'Gods' that hand us part-time teachers hours next Thursday as you genuinely seem to care.

I hope you don't mind me requoting you 'Your school may be in a situation where when the teacher resigned his post the department said you cannot have full hours but only 16 and as a result other teachers hours are being rejigged' The situation was that I had 19.5 hours of my own last year, a teacher on 22 hrs resigned, I think I should have been given some of her hours (on the basis of a department circular), but instread I ended up with 16.9 hours while my new colleague is on almost as many hours, definitely something wrong:mad:

gaeilgebeo

I would be very wary about going to battle with the principal, unfair and unjust as your situation may be.
If there are more cuts next year, which is likely, you could have hours cut further or even lose your job. The new candidate may have a second subject that "meets the curricular needs of the school", remember, that is the criteria now for hours and redeployment.
I have seen this happen. Thread carefully.

wantano

I have huge sympathy for you reading this. In our school, the teachers who don't have full hours would be topped up before newcomers are looked after. It seems very strange that you were asked to sign a contract without your hours stated on it.
I wouldn't have applied for the job either, like if you got it, then your hours would have to be advertised. And how could they not give it to you and retain you in the other job? two interview panels also - very strange!
It's a pity your union rep wasn't more supportive.
What type of relationship do you have with your principal?

mrboswell

rockymountain wrote: »

No I did'nt apply, I did'nt think I needed to seeing as I already had an RPT contract for the last two years and had signed my contract for this year as well when the post was advertised. I really do not know what to do now though, I assumed that I would be given the surplus hours because of that but now I'm seriously worried.

Well I think you answered your own question there - you had already signed a contract for your RPT post before the other one was advertised.

The school should have said it to you. But as I have seen on a number occasions (thankfully not affecting me) schools do not always do as they should...

wantano

But would you jeopardise your own job by doing so? what if they created a panel and you came third?

spurious

Since it's a VEC school, the union should be bypassing local management and discussing your case ONLY with your Head Office. The principal and any input they have had is out of the picture now.

I know of a case in my own VEC where 'a local decision' saw someone go from something like 16 hours to 6, when a full 22 were available.
The person involved brought a case, won and not only got the full 22, but also back money.