Life outside BR

corny

ormond lad wrote: »

No im debating the issue. Yet again you are making assumptions about me. I never said our players were useless. I said some who have done well with the provinces are not international standard. James Coughlan is a good strong provincial heineken cup standard player but nobody will be looking for him in an Ireland jersey. He would make a lot of heineken cup teams but wouldnt make a national set up.
The players have said that international rugby is a different pace and a step up from provincial rugby.
Rugby league isnt bash bash kick. You dont watch league if you think its like that.

One thing we agree on. League pisses on Union when it comes to intelligent running lines.

seanand

ormond lad wrote: »

No im debating the issue. Yet again you are making assumptions about me. I never said our players were useless. I said some who have done well with the provinces are not international standard. James Coughlan is a good strong provincial heineken cup standard player but nobody will be looking for him in an Ireland jersey. He would make a lot of heineken cup teams but wouldnt make a national set up.
The players have said that international rugby is a different pace and a step up from provincial rugby.
Rugby league isnt bash bash kick. You dont watch league if you think its like that.

thats strange do all the players from the welsh regions that play in the hec regularly get asked to play international rugby too or should we just call up james coughlan aswell to make sure? like what are you on about and sorry if you think im slagging you or insulting you but come on.

ormond lad

seanand wrote: »

sorry u19s won the wc my bad we didnt build on that did we?
ok 60 players and maybe 20+ are and never will be international quality as you say that still leaves 40 or so and since you can only put 15 on a pitch at one time all getting plenty game time and a lot of the time winning against teams with just as much internationals.

weve underperformed at the last two wcs massively if you ask me.

england france and aus rugby union isnt the first sport either so do they really have that much more depth than us. and again we can put out a team of 22 that would push for a place on all those teams except nz and prob sa forward unit

and wait how come there play and mindset that much better than us i wonder, is it because kidneys biggest tactic is were the underdogs look at us were ****

also out u20s for the last 3-4 seasons have been regularly pushing for grandslams at u20 level so we should have quality players coming through the same as every other nation

Different era with that u19 world cup win. There was a few stars who came out of that team but the provinces had only a small number of players on professional contracts. There was no celtic league then, players only played either 3 or 6 interpros outside of the heineken cup. Players mainly played AIL.
Rugby isnt the main sport in england but there is so many more players in england. theyve 20+ professional teams and between all age groups have around 1million registered players compared to 100'000 here.
But in France again they have much bigger numbers and in a large part of the country rugby is the main sport. The area around toulouse and below is rugby dominated and rugby is the first sport down there.
In australia many kids/teens play rugby league or aussie rules which have many qualities similar to rugby so if they do come back to union theyll have other skills from similarish sports.

FewFew

This discussion is a bit mad. If I had the patience I think I could probably use quotes to have Ormond arguing against his own initial case.

Does Ireland underperform in the world cup...

Let's look at the level we reach:

Teams who have reached the quarter finals but have gone no further...

Ireland.
Canada.
Fiji.
Samoa.

Now, is anybody going to try and say we deserve to be as successful as Canada, Fiji or Samoa?

And if England deserve it and we don't, what's that all about. We've a 50/50 record against them since 2000. Don't think they've any more right to the world cup than we do.

seanand

weve beating most teams a nice bit since 200o apart from nz and i believe we have the players to beat them so wheres does that leave is stand? all i can say is come on fiji ha

Phonehead

Considering D'Arcy and Drico won't be there by the next WC we could have serious issues in the centre if they don't start playing some of the younger guys.

seanand

well never replace drico and thats not helping by the back we seem to be trying to replace him with earls who just doesnt seem to cut it as 2nd centre. as for darcy easily replaced and should of been two seasons ago

FewFew

Poor Darcy.

Phonehead

Darcy comes in for some amount of stick, is there a better inside centre in the country though?

seanand

downey when he playing in england i think mcfadden should be given a go there and now luke marshall is playing constantly for an undefeated side that hopefully will be better represented in the 6nations

ormond lad

Fewcifur wrote: »

This discussion is a bit mad. If I had the patience I think I could probably use quotes to have Ormond arguing against his own initial case.

Does Ireland underperform in the world cup...

Let's look at the level we reach:

Teams who have reached the quarter finals but have gone no further...

Ireland.
Canada.
Fiji.
Samoa.

Now, is anybody going to try and say we deserve to be as successful as Canada, Fiji or Samoa?

And if England deserve it and we don't, what's that all about. We've a 50/50 record against them since 2000. Don't think they've any more right to the world cup than we do.

Our record against England is a bit flawed considering england are prob the team we get up for the most when we play. History, bla bla bla.
Its more our record since 2004 more than 2000 that has been the standout. We had several very big losses in the early noughties that dont need to be brought up...
I think in many ways they do have more of a right considering their record against the southern hemisphere big 3 over that time compared to our record.

Phonehead wrote: »

Considering D'Arcy and Drico won't be there by the next WC we could have serious issues in the centre if they don't start playing some of the younger guys.

Earls is a 13. BOD will never really be properly replaced. He is a once in a lifetime player.
We have seen Marshall, we need to look at mcsherry from connacht at 12.
Plenty of the young players will get a shot in the irish jersey next summer when the Lions tour is on when Ireland tour North America playing a test against both USA and Canada.

seanand wrote: »

well never replace drico and thats not helping by the back we seem to be trying to replace him with earls who just doesnt seem to cut it as 2nd centre. as for darcy easily replaced and should of been two seasons ago

Earls can cut it as a 13 and there is others who will get a shot next summer on the tour to USA and Canada.
Wouldnt say Darcy is easily replaced but there is several options both currently playing pro12/HEC and in the academies who have serious potential
Here is an article from an excellant rugby blog on future options

Phonehead wrote: »

Darcy comes in for some amount of stick, is there a better inside centre in the country though?

Hard to say. There could be but they need to be seen.
There is on the basis of some of Darcys performances over recent years but IMO not many around can match Darcy when he was at his peak

seanand wrote: »

downey when he playing in england i think mcfadden should be given a go there and now luke marshall is playing constantly for an undefeated side that hopefully will be better represented in the 6nations

Luke Marshall should be looked at because of his performances this season.
Downey was never really international standard. His offloading game which is allright now wasnt good enough for a considerable period

ormond lad

2 great wins for irish provinces tonight
Hopefully there is another 2 wins tomorrow
Anybody watch the games tonight or going to the munster game tomorrow?

FewFew

Ulster terrify me. They're made of Iron.

westman1

that hit of mcsharrys in the second nearly knocked my monitor off the table

seanand

ulster are unbelievable at the moment but just head mullers out for 8 weeks that will hurt them. but how they react to this will define there season and if they keep this up i hope theyll have a good Representative in the 6nations

corny

Thats three loses for the Irish provinces so far this weekend.:(

Always going to be tough for Connacht but the conditions didn't help.

Disappointed with Ulster tbh. Huge amount of unforced errors basically handed the game to Saints. The run had to end sometime i suppose.

And Clermont absolutely strangled the life out of Leinster. No shame in that. I thought Leinster battled manfully to the end but it'll take some performance to topple Clermont in this form. Everyone bar Parra is capable of making serious dents over the gain line and they've the likes of Malzieu and Domingo to come back into the frame. Frightening.

mar-z

corny wrote: »

Thats three loses for the Irish provinces so far this weekend.:(

Four now

As you say, Connacht were up against it and not helped by the conditions. I was disappointed in the tactics (or application of tactics) employed as there was too much wasteful kicking. Defended great for the most part though!

Leinster just came up against a monster team in Clermont. Really missed a trick not getting the away win last week when Clermont didn't play as well and are now most likely out barring two big wins and some favours

As Corny said above handling error ruined Ulsters momentum repeatedly. I was very disappointed with Payne in this regard on the day especially (he's been excellent this season though). Hearing Bowe need a knee op is a blow, but just read he apparently tweeted it wasn't as bad as first feared.

Missed the Munster game so can't comment other than saying a bpl away to Saracens isn't a bad result on paper anyway

TheJims

ill probably get slaughtered by the scrum gurus (and wouldnt even think of mentioning it on the actual rugby section) but lads.. is BJ Botha all Rep and no umphh...??

Since hes arrived, hes done better then Mushy and Archer (isnt saying too much..) but once he comes across anything between a Decent to Workclass scrum/loosehead, he always comes out second best in my eyes, he consistently loses his footing and/or gets penalised for early engagements or generally not being able to hold his ground, and seems to be alot smaller in size compared to the looseheads..

so my question is, to the people in the know, whats happening?? is the rest of the front row leaving him down, or the tighthead lock not getting his timing right/power through??

ormond lad

TheJims wrote: »

ill probably get slaughtered by the scrum gurus (and wouldnt even think of mentioning it on the actual rugby section) but lads.. is BJ Botha all Rep and no umphh...??

Since hes arrived, hes done better then Mushy and Archer (isnt saying too much..) but once he comes across anything between a Decent to Workclass scrum/loosehead, he always comes out second best in my eyes, he consistently loses his footing and/or gets penalised for early engagements or generally not being able to hold his ground, and seems to be alot smaller in size compared to the looseheads..

so my question is, to the people in the know, whats happening?? is the rest of the front row leaving him down, or the tighthead lock not getting his timing right/power through??

Cant agree with you. He's a good scrummager. Much better than Buckley and Archer.
Maybe its the scrum calls(on the engagement) i dont know. Might ask seamus harty, scrum guru from nenagh who has worked with most professional props with munster over the years, about what he thinks. he's nearly always right when talking about scrummaging

TheJims

Don't get me wrong I think he knows what he's doing ! There's no arguing with his pedigree as a scrummager, I just don't think he has lived up to the fact he was called the saviour of the Munster scrum when he was announced as coming down here.

ormond lad

TheJims wrote: »

Don't get me wrong I think he knows what he's doing ! There's no arguing with his pedigree as a scrummager, I just don't think he has lived up to the fact he was called the saviour of the Munster scrum when he was announced as coming down here.

He has improved the scrum. but to be fair the scrum has been the least of our worries the past few years and the backrow and centre have been much bigger issues with uncertainty over wholl replace ROG taking over this season as well.

seanand

ROG was very poor I thought tbh, but didn't see much of the game. His kicking hasn't been the greatest this season and since that the main reason he's starting maybe its time to start replacing him

TheVoodoo

See if only he'd realize that he can step aside with grace now, and allow the future development at the position for Munster and Ireland, even admit it himself and take a place on the bench.



If only.

ormond lad

Any BO opinions on the irish squad announced today
http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/28133.php

seanand

i think that list looks good as a wide panel its when the smaller squad is picked well see the weaknesses tho 2nd row looks week toner and ocallaghan arent good enough to be there imo

ormond lad

seanand wrote: »

i think that list looks good as a wide panel its when the smaller squad is picked well see the weaknesses tho 2nd row looks week toner and ocallaghan arent good enough to be there imo

How is the 2nd row weak??
How is Donnacha O Callaghan not good enough to be there. Who would you have in place of DOC and DT in the row?

seanand

hes past it theres only 5 recognised 2nd rows there and one usually plays no.6. ah come on hes well past it, and there in lies the problem theyre there because we have no one else atm.

theres 6 outhalves although stevenson madigan and keatley can kind of play other positions

ormond lad

seanand wrote: »

hes past it theres only 5 recognised 2nd rows there and one usually plays no.6. ah come on hes well past it, and there in lies the problem theyre there because we have no one else atm.

theres 6 outhalves although stevenson madigan and keatley can kind of play other positions

there is 4 out halfs named(ROG, Sexton, Madigan, Jackson)
stevenson is a 2nd row
DOC isnt past it. he has shown this season in his performances that he certainly is not past it and rolled back the years
There will be other names added before the wolfhound game

eoferrall

I do think DO'C is past it, and should not be first choice. yes he has had a better season than the last year or two, but that wouldn't be hard to be honest. I would say Ryan and McCarthy are our best pairing and showed in AI's that they can perform at a high level. I also hope Stevenson gets some game time (WH?) since he looks to be a very good physical player. get him exposed and see if he can step up.

As above this squad is really very little to complain about, but all options are included, the trimmed squad will reveal more to us to be honest. so I am holding off on my fire until then!

BOD losing captaincy was a surprise as I had not considered that happening, the start to the end and I am kind of glad there seems to be at least a little forward planning.

ormond lad

eoferrall wrote: »

I do think DO'C is past it, and should not be first choice. yes he has had a better season than the last year or two, but that wouldn't be hard to be honest. I would say Ryan and McCarthy are our best pairing and showed in AI's that they can perform at a high level. I also hope Stevenson gets some game time (WH?) since he looks to be a very good physical player. get him exposed and see if he can step up.

As above this squad is really very little to complain about, but all options are included, the trimmed squad will reveal more to us to be honest. so I am holding off on my fire until then!

BOD losing captaincy was a surprise as I had not considered that happening, the start to the end and I am kind of glad there seems to be at least a little forward planning.

DOC isnt past it. He has been good this season but shouldnt be looked at as a starter when Donnacha Ryan and Mike Mc are available.
Yes you cant really say much about this squad until the squad is cut down in numbers