The Future of The Written Word

syklops

Nody wrote: »

The demand for Windows is at an all time high; the price don't decrease though. Demand does not decrease price as much as competition and with e-books there is (currently) a woefull lack of competition because there is no second hand market, limited interoperability and no noticable cost increase between selling 100 or 100.000 copies (with paper books if you print 100k copies and only sell 50k you need to dump the final 50k due to storage costs, printing costs etc. to recoup the investment).

Thats hardly comparing like with like, is it? The reason the cost of Windows is so high, is because governments and corporations are locked in, with all their IT systems, and all their applications running on it. For many, the cost of changing to another platform, is greater than the saving they would make by changing to another supplier like RHEL.

Nody wrote: »

In short, there is no reason for the publishers to reduce the cost of their e-book copies because the cost of keeping it at the current price has very limited downsides (higher profit margin, non existant cost of storage, bigger libery available etc.) and there is no competition to push it down (copyright ensures they have no incentives short of wanting to sell you the author's next copy). Why lower your own profit margins when you've got a format with no second hand market (game makers would wet their pants for that), no real cost to store it and no one that can undersell you any more?

You are forgetting that we are not just talking about publishers, there is also the suppliers to think about. Amazon has the kindle, Barnes and Noble has the Nook, Sony has the sony store, and there are others all competing for the eReader market. At the moment we are not seeing much competition, because they all have their own formats, but it wont be long before one format takes over, just like with MP3s, DVDs, Blu-Ray, etc. One format will take over, and when it does, they will all be competing against each other.

Nody wrote: »

Don't get me wrong here; I'd love to see a competive e-book market (would save me a lot of bookshelf space if nothing else) but I simply can't see how it will work in practice. I'd love the idea of a netflix for e-books, or subscription base but since what I'm reading is all over the place (fantasy to religion to history to old classics to Sci Fi) I simply don't see how it would work out

I think the reason you cant see how it would work, is because you are assuming that books need to be converted to an ebook format, and due to the eclectic nature of your reading habits, you doubt that what you like will be converted. However, what you are forgetting, is that nowadays, all books are converted to a digital format before they are even printed. It costs the publisher near nothing to convert the book to a well used format, and leave it for purchase on their website, where as it takes millions, to print and distribute books. Once ebook readers become mainstream, thats what will happen, and you will be able to get any book you want. We are only in the early days of eBooks and eReaders.

Nody

syklops wrote: »

Thats hardly comparing like with like, is it? The reason the cost of Windows is so high, is because governments and corporations are locked in, with all their IT systems, and all their applications running on it. For many, the cost of changing to another platform, is greater than the saving they would make by changing to another supplier like RHEL.

Ipads, IPods, cars. Take your pick of choice of product the simple fact is volume can only take things so far esp. if you have something which only you can sell (see Apple branded products for example); only proper competition can reduce prices after that. Heck, pick a standard major game on a console of choice; it is still more expensive yet the demand is obviously there as the consoles keep on selling more and more of each type. Volume only helps you to get to an "acceptable" cost per unit (i.e. the first 10 costs 1.000 each, if you can make 100 you can get that down to 150 each etc. but you hit the bottom quickly were more volume does nothing on the cost per unit).

You are forgetting that we are not just talking about publishers, there is also the suppliers to think about. Amazon has the kindle, Barnes and Noble has the Nook, Sony has the sony store, and there are others all competing for the eReader market. At the moment we are not seeing much competition, because they all have their own formats, but it wont be long before one format takes over, just like with MP3s, DVDs, Blu-Ray, etc. One format will take over, and when it does, they will all be competing against each other.

Yet the publishers are the once sitting with the material. Remember the Blue Ray vs. Super DVD debacle? Are you finding new Blue Ray movies that are released cheaper or more expensive then their DVD counterpart now that they are all competing against each other (the cost of making the movie obviously remain the same, only difference is what type of disc it is recorded on digitally)? Do you find Windows, MW3 or WoW expansions to cost less because they are all done on PCs which have one of the highest level of competition in the world? One format will not in any way help here to make it cheaper because you've not solved the root cause of one copy of the book that can't be sold, given away, or borrowed in any way putting the full sales profit of every copy in the hand of the publisher (minus a potential cut for the store but once again I expect to see more direct linking to the publish house by the stores for download rather then by every individual store).

Now if Amazon wants to sell the book at a loss or try to force the publisher to lower prices more power to them but don't count on it. Remember the apple store fight with music owners? Cost of a song 99c and always 99c and not more? Yea, that meant an album was more expensive usually then buying a CD instead and the 99c was a big fight as well. Do you consider it a success that you can buy a electronical song more expensively then the CD?

I think the reason you cant see how it would work, is because you are assuming that books need to be converted to an ebook format, and due to the eclectic nature of your reading habits, you doubt that what you like will be converted. However, what you are forgetting, is that nowadays, all books are converted to a digital format before they are even printed. It costs the publisher near nothing to convert the book to a well used format, and leave it for purchase on their website, where as it takes millions, to print and distribute books. Once ebook readers become mainstream, thats what will happen, and you will be able to get any book you want. We are only in the early days of eBooks and eReaders.

You've missed the point; there is only one thing you can trust with a company and that is greed (it is the sole reason the company exist after all, to produce more value for it's owner then the original cost/capital put in to it). Why sell the book for 1 USD when you can get 5 for it and have 6x the profit? You're very unlikely to sell 6x the number of books (after all you had the first year or two of sales, then a new peak with a new slightly lower price etc. Most people simply have the book at that stage that will read it and hence the 6x profit is of more interst as the volumes are not there for books after a few years).

You've just pointed it out yourself, minimal overheads to maximise profit. Do you think the publishers who today charge more per electronical copy then a paper copy will do a 180 and suddenly say, hey, lets reduce our profit by lowering our electronical book prices! No, I expect they will keep the prices up on electronical copies and keep on charging it because now they don't even have to worry about "old stock" taking up space or costing anything anymore!

Great for publishers but bad for consumers; not that I expect most people will care as they would today go in to a store to buy the latest mainstream book they read. For those that don't though or read a lot it will be a much more expensive experience to read in the future as they can't borrow those books anymore; they will have to buy new copies of every single book they want to read. The publishers will be very happy to hear that as well of course, esp. once the new format X comes out and you need to buy the e-book all over again (ala VHS, DVD and Blue Ray).

DjFlin

Publishers don't want you selling/trading/sharing or buying second hand books at all, they make no money from it. It's the same in all mediums, notably the video game industry, where several games include one-use codes for extra features, so people will be more inclined to buy new instead of used.

mcgovern

Only 3 months ago I would have said I'd never change over to an e-reader. What would I put on my bookshelves then?
Now reading almost exclusively on a Kindle and find I am reading much more than when I was reading paper backs.
It might seem like a small thing, but not having to open the book onto the right page makes a huge difference imo, I can have the kindle on and read a page or two while making the dinner, another page during loading time playing games etc.

Permabear

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Eoin

I think Nody's point was that we can't rely on the cheaper distribution costs of eBooks for publishers to mean that this will be transferred to the consumer.

Valmont

Nody wrote: »

For those that don't though or read a lot it will be a much more expensive experience to read in the future as they can't borrow those books anymore; they will have to buy new copies of every single book they want to read.

Yes but the new copy will be a file as opposed to a new hardcover book so it will be cheaper, no? Also, people swap music files with their friends at no additional cost so why not book files? Perhaps I'm wrong on this one I haven't actually used an e-reader yet.

Eoin

Only a matter of time.

As an aside - I read recently that one of the possible future iPad features might be a transparent eInk screen that overlays the normal backlit colour one. So if you're reading an eBook, the main screen is turned off and you read your eBook on a proper eInk screen. If that works, that would be a fantastic device IMO.

Kinski

Eoin wrote: »

Only a matter of time.

As an aside - I read recently that one of the possible future iPad features might be a transparent eInk screen that overlays the normal backlit colour one. So if you're reading an eBook, the main screen is turned off and you read your eBook on a proper eInk screen. If that works, that would be a fantastic device IMO.

That does sound very cool, but I think the people who complain that ereaders don't have the same wide range of functions as an iPad are missing the point. It's not like anyone ever sat down with a Jane Austen novel and thought to themselves, "Damn, if only this thing would let me check my emails."

Eoin

No, but I think I'd like to be able to do both things at different times using the same device, given the form factor of a tablet and reader are quite similar. Though an iPad would be a hefty device for an eReader. I think it would be a particularly handy device for people who might read technical type documents for a while, rather than literature.

Kinski

You're right, it would be handy, but I think that having the Internet just a couple of clicks away on your main reading device would be an unwelcome distraction for most people; it's more likely to detract from than enhance their reading experience.

E.T.

mcgovern wrote: »

Only 3 months ago I would have said I'd never change over to an e-reader. What would I put on my bookshelves then?
Now reading almost exclusively on a Kindle and find I am reading much more than when I was reading paper backs.
It might seem like a small thing, but not having to open the book onto the right page makes a huge difference imo, I can have the kindle on and read a page or two while making the dinner, another page during loading time playing games etc.

I'm the exact same. I've always been a bookworm but I've been ridiculous since I got the kindle a few months ago! I've even been reading it while drying my hair.....I think I'm verging on addiction at this stage.

DjFlin

Kinski wrote: »

You're right, it would be handy, but I think that having the Internet just a couple of clicks away on your main reading device would be an unwelcome distraction for most people; it's more likely to detract from than enhance their reading experience.

Kindles have web browsers on them, they don't detract.

Kinski

DjFlin wrote: »

Kindles have web browsers on them, they don't detract.

It has limited web-browsing capabilities. It's really not like having all the distracting bells and whistles that an iPad has.

DjFlin

Kinski wrote: »

It has limited web-browsing capabilities. It's really not like having all the distracting bells and whistles that an iPad has.

Perhaps so, but I still dont think it would make much difference. I mean, when I sit down with a book, its because I want to read it, so the Xbox, TV, Laptop and Smartphone dont do much to deter me from reading.

Of course, this will never be a problem for me, because I'll never read a book off an LCD screen. E-ink or bust. LCD wrecks my eyes.

Psychedelic

Is the typography and layout of text the same on e-readers as the physical book? Or are they all set in a default fault but with options to change the font and font size? I know this is an extreme example but an e-reader would be totally useless for something like House of Leaves. If this is the case then essentially all you are buying is text, for around the same price. That annoys me too, a digital file costing around the same as a physical book.

I haven't seen one yet but looking at demos on YouTube they look fairly crappy to me, nothing like ink on paper, just looks like a computer screen.

Permabear wrote: »

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Kind of confused by this, a good few posters are talking about when e-readers eventually catch on, yet those stats would suggest they are already now mainstream.

Permabear wrote: »

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Can those features be turned off? That'd be a major annoyance for me, for the same reasons you have given.

Eoin

I have 3 font size options on my ereader. And I've definitely downloaded books with different fonts used

DjFlin

Psychedelic wrote: »

Is the typography and layout of text the same on e-readers as the physical book? Or are they all set in a default fault but with options to change the font and font size? I know this is an extreme example but an e-reader would be totally useless for something like House of Leaves. If this is the case then essentially all you are buying is text, for around the same price. That annoys me too, a digital file costing around the same as a physical book.

I haven't seen one yet but looking at demos on YouTube they look fairly crappy to me, nothing like ink on paper, just looks like a computer screen.


Kind of confused by this, a good few posters are talking about when e-readers eventually catch on, yet those stats would suggest they are already now mainstream.


Can those features be turned off? That'd be a major annoyance for mKind of confused by this, a good few posters are talking about when e-readers eventually catch on, yet those stats would suggest they are already now mainstream.
e, for the same reasons you have given.

Yeah, the eBook should look the same as the physical one. Books like House of Leaves, or other unconventionally laid out books would be properly formatted for readers. eBook formats are more dynamic than a basic text file, so they can be resized to suit the readers preference, but retain their shape properly.

Sergeant

I have a Kindle, and love it. It fails badly when trying to view image heavy books, or say a travel guide like the Lonely Planet.

Paddy Samurai

DjFlin wrote: »

Hi,

I recently had a conversation with a friend who said they "never have never will" use an eReader of any type, and was wondering how others felt about them.

Personally I think they're great. I dont have one, but I have used several (The Amazon Kindle mostly) and plan on getting one as soon as I can afford to.

Whenever I go on Holiday, I'd usually take two books, and buy a third in the Airport. Unless one of the books turns out to be rubbish, they're all read by the end of the first week, after which they're just wasted suitcase space. I love the idea of having one small device for all my books.

My friend paid €30 for A Dance With Dragons not too long ago. Its only €14 on Kindle. At that rate a Kindle would pay for itself pretty quickly.

So what do you think of eReaders? Are you one of those people who just wont give up on physical books? Explain it to me.

For me as long as I have a choice it will probably be books over e-readers,for all the reasons already stated
.I do agree that for most people e-readers will be the future.Book collecting will probably become an elitist hobby eventually.You only have to check out ABE books to see the mad prices been charged for standard out of print books only a decade old.Also more and more authors are releasing special lettered and limited edition books that are snapped up before they are even printed.Bought for $250,and sold a few months later for $2000.
Some authors are preventing reprints of their books,making the existing copies even more collectable. Recently Peter v brett released a novella of only a few thousand copies that are now been sold for $2000 each.

I think in the future (hopefully distant future) books will be available to the masses on-line,and limited editions/small quantities available to collectors.


http://www.subterraneanpress.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=SP&Category_Code=PRE



If I won the lotto I would build myself a library and fill it with books;)


Watch out for EMP'S................:)

amacachi

Psychedelic wrote: »

Kind of confused by this, a good few posters are talking about when e-readers eventually catch on, yet those stats would suggest they are already now mainstream.

Sales have gone up amazingly quickly, I didn't see it coming and am dying to get a Kindle or similar. Another thing to bear in mind is online piracy, I'd love to see some stats for downloads of ebooks for the last 3-4 years. If Amazon's sales of non-physical files has gone up so quickly I can't imagine how much illegal downloads have increased.

Permabear

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Toby Take a Bow

At the moment, it's paper books all the way for me. I don't travel much, and can always find a paper book cheaper than a digital edition (although, not having an eReader I'm not always comparing the prices, so I may be behind on what the actual pricing is in this matter). What I like about paper books isn't really the point here. For me, the digital versions just don't offer enough benefits for me to switch. I don't travel much, I don't need constant access to more than one book at any one time, I can't afford to replace an eReader if it breaks and I have a whole pile of paper books to read. But I'm not saying I wouldn't switch if it becomes beneficial to do so (either if my habits change or if publishers and companies like Amazon force readers like myself to switch. It's obviously in their interest to get customers to buy new overpriced books when there are so many cheaper alternatives around in paper form).

The arguments for and against regarding sales and the like are continual. An interesting one was in the Guardian recently:

Ewan Morrison's initial argument and the rebuttal from Lloyd Shepherd.

I think ebooks are here to stay and are probably the future, primarily because it will mean more money for the companies involved in selling them (or at least that's what they're banking on). Was always the way.

KnifeWRENCH

I don't have an eReader and don't have any immediate plans to get one. I've no problem browsing through forums or articles online and reading short passages of text on a laptop screen but I can't imagine sitting down and actually staring at and absorbing an entire chapter of a book. I think it would make my eyes hurt.

Also I love actual books too much to ever abandon buying them completely.

Eoin

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

I don't have an eReader and don't have any immediate plans to get one. I've no problem browsing through forums or articles online and reading short passages of text on a laptop screen but I can't imagine sitting down and actually staring at and absorbing an entire chapter of a book. I think it would make my eyes hurt.

You just can't compare an eReader screen to a computer screen. They are completely different things.

KnifeWRENCH

Eoin wrote: »

You just can't compare an eReader screen to a computer screen. They are completely different things.

Well ok, that was just an assumption on my part. I haven't really looked into eReaders that much because I never had any interest in getting one, so I'm fully open to correction on any mistaken assumptions I may have about them.

And yeah, I should have known that they wouldn't be detrimental to eyesight as I read recently that South Korea have plans to get rid of paper books altogether in their education system; by the year 2015 all books will be in the form of e-books! They'd hardly do that if they thought it would damage their childrens' eyes.

I dunno, I guess it's just me but I personally find the concept of staring at any sort of screen for hours upon hours at a time a little bit tiring. And I just love hoarding stuff and having collections; I still buy CD's as opposed to downloading. I'm still probably gonna hold off on getting an eReader until it becomes absolutely necessary.

Kinski

The BBC are reporting that Waterstone's are set to release an ereader next year.

Also, a piece from The Economist. I agree with this:

[Publishers] act as the venture capitalists of the words business, advancing money to authors of worthwhile books that might not be written otherwise. And they are editors, picking good books and improving them. So it would be good, not just for their shareholders but also for intellectual life, if they survived. [...] f they are to distinguish their wares from self-published dross, they must get better at choosing books, honing ideas and polishing copy.

Self-published novels *shudder* As Christopher Hitchens responded to the old saying about everyone having a book inside them, "Yes, and for most people that is where it should stay."

DuPLeX

I read an interesting book called "The Shallows" by Nicholas Carr recently, (on real paper though! ).
I would never buy an i-reader or pringle or whatever :rolleyes:
I've heard that amazon reached into peoples readers and deleted books by George Orwell (Ironically). so these "books" are not your property ?
Kinda reminds me of the film Fahrenheit 451 .

Kinski

DuPLeX wrote: »

I would never buy an i-reader or pringle or whatever :rolleyes:
I've heard that amazon reached into peoples readers and deleted books by George Orwell (Ironically). so these "books" are not your property ?
Kinda reminds me of the film Fahrenheit 451 .

They deleted illegal editions of 1984 which some customers had purchased. The people who produced that edition had no right to do so.

Though it is a bit like Fahrenheit 451: If Amazon discovers that you were unfortunate enough to buy an illegitimate e-edition of a text, they send a gleaming red firetruck round to your house, and the firemen then bust through your front door, snatch your Kindle and melt it with a flamethrower.

[OT: I'd cite the post quoted above as yet another example of why that eye-rolling emoticon should be banned from Boards forever. I hate that damn eye-rolling thing::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:]

DjFlin

On a related note. The Father of the eBook died recently.