Alternatives to LC points system?

Tom Dunne

I'm reading with interest the debate about the LC points system and how it is totally unsuitable for preparing students for third level.

As teachers, what do you think the alternatives are?

Is continuous assessment the answer? When I assess students (at third level), I use a combination of practical assessments, larger written essay-type assessments, posters, projects and exams, with exams having a small percentage of the overall mark for the year.

Would this work at second level?

spurious

That's more or less what the LCA does.
It's very much school-dependent on how it's run, but when run well, it's a fantastic course.

whiteandlight

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I'm reading with interest the debate about the LC points system and how it is totally unsuitable for preparing students for third level.

As teachers, what do you think the alternatives are?

Is continuous assessment the answer? When I assess students (at third level), I use a combination of practical assessments, larger written essay-type assessments, posters, projects and exams, with exams having a small percentage of the overall mark for the year.

Would this work at second level?

It's hard to know but I've been reading a lot about the uk/American problems with continuous assessment at this age. The consensus seems to be that it is wide open to abuse by parents/students/teachers/grinds etc. This would probably be a terrible idea for Ireland given our tendancy towards the pat on the back culture....

doc_17

I'd go with a review of the points sytems and make it more worthwhile for students to do certain subjects.

Professor Brian McGrath, President of DCU, has been speaking about this recently. I'd agree with his proposals which would mean us having a system like follows: If you are in the top percentile in your subject you get 100 points, 2nd percentile 99 points etc. His rationale for this was that 60% of all students (H&O) get more than 60 points in a certain subject (Geography) whereas ony 18% get more than 60 points in Maths (both H&O).

So to get 60 points in an "easier" subject you only have to beat 40% of your peers whereas to get 60 points in maths you have to beat 82% of your peers.

I'm not knocking other subjects but in a points race people tend to go where the points are and if they aren't fairly distributed then it will be reflected in which subjects and levels students select.


Just another two things I would do in terms of reform are:

1. Introduce ICT as a Leaving Cert subject - not limited to the basic enough ECDL but programming languages as well.

2. Have no fees, or reduced registration fees, for STEM 3rd level courses so as to entice more students to do it.

That's my two cents worth

RealJohn

Personally, I think the system is fine as it is, except that all subjects carry equal weight for points regardless of the course. I think that points should also related to the course you're applying for.

For example, if two people were applying for a science course, we'll say they both get the same mark in maths, Irish and english and whatever foreign language they do. One student did biology, art and music and the other did biology, chemistry and physics. The chemistry and physics should clearly carry more weight than the art and music in applying for a science course (assuming the student didn't fail chemistry and/or physics obviously).
I'm not saying that someone who did art and music should be excluded from a science course but the person with more science subjects has already got a better base in science than the person with fewer science subjects so it would seem obvious that the person with the three science subjects should be offered the course before the person with one.

The problem here is it makes things far more complicated.
Say one student gets A1s in biology and chemistry and another gets C3s in biology, chemistry and physics. Now one student has a wider base but doesn't know it that well whereas the person who has a narrower range of knowledge knows what they know far better. How do we now distinguish between then?

To be honest, I think the real issue is with the universities. The CAO only runs the points system and checks to make sure students have the required subjects to the required level to be accepted. The CAO doesn't (as far as I know) set the course requirements. That's up to the universities. If the universities set their course requirements higher it will mean that more of the right people will get in and points will only become a factor between candidates who are otherwise equally suitable.

Tom Dunne

spurious wrote: »

That's more or less what the LCA does.
It's very much school-dependent on how it's run, but when run well, it's a fantastic course.

I wasn't aware of that. Why isn't it more widely used?

Musicmental85 wrote: »

It's hard to know but I've been reading a lot about the uk/American problems with continuous assessment at this age. The consensus seems to be that it is wide open to abuse by parents/students/teachers/grinds etc. This would probably be a terrible idea for Ireland given our tendancy towards the pat on the back culture....

I live and work in a region where, how can I put this, all means necessary are used to pass an assessment. Because of this, we have implemented a few policies and procedures to help drastically reduce the amount of plagiarism cases. Personally, I wouldn't see this as a barrier to continuous assessment.

doc_17 wrote: »

Professor Brian McGrath, President of DCU, has been speaking about this recently. I'd agree with his proposals which would mean us having a system like follows: If you are in the top percentile in your subject you get 100 points, 2nd percentile 99 points etc. His rationale for this was that 60% of all students (H&O) get more than 60 points in a certain subject (Geography) whereas ony 18% get more than 60 points in Maths (both H&O).

It was actually his article in the Sunday Business Post that was the inspiration for this thread.

doc_17 wrote: »

1. Introduce ICT as a Leaving Cert subject - not limited to the basic enough ECDL but programming languages as well.

I don't necessarily agree (and this is speaking as a 3rd level lecturer in IT). Not everyone is cut out for programming. Some people get it, a lot don't. I think this would actually have a detrimental effect on IT and put more people off it.

But yes, ICT needs to be a Leaving Cert subject.

doc_17

Tom Dunne wrote: »

I wasn't aware of that. Why isn't it more widely used?




It was actually his article in the Sunday Business Post that was the inspiration for this thread. .

I don't necessarily agree (and this is speaking as a 3rd level lecturer in IT). Not everyone is cut out for programming. Some people get it, a lot don't. I think this would actually have a detrimental effect on IT and put more people off it.

But yes, ICT needs to be a Leaving Cert subject.[/QUOTE]

The LCA is used with generally weaker students and as a device to keep them in school to complete a LC. It can't really get you into any university degree course such as Science or Teaching.

I was the McGill summer where Brian McGrath was sying lots of the things he was saying in the SBP yesterday. Intelligent man.

I agree not everyone is cut for programming have done a good bit in the past myself however the same could be said about subjects like chemistry and physics...not everyone is cut out for these either but they are on the LC too.

spurious

doc_17 wrote: »

The LCA is used with generally weaker students and as a device to keep them in school to complete a LC. It can't really get you into any university degree course such as Science or Teaching.

It cannot get you in directly, but many LCA students have gone on to do Science and Arts degrees. They are far better prepared for college than the churn back the notes brigade.

Do you know anyone who did the LCA? There are a great many experts on it who have never actually had anything to do with it. The snobbery and conservatism in Irish education is suffocating.

doc_17

spurious wrote: »

It cannot get you in directly, but many LCA students have gone on to do Science and Arts degrees. They are far better prepared for college than the churn back the notes brigade.

Do you know anyone who did the LCA? There are a great many experts on it who have never actually had anything to do with it. The snobbery and conservatism in Irish education is suffocating.

I wouldn't know anything about the LCA since I only taught it for 4 years. I wasn't displaying snobbery, I was just answering the question. The LCA caters for students who might not be best suited for the normal LC.

spurious

I'm sorry, the snobbery comment was not directed at you personally, sincere apologies if you felt it was.

seriouslysweet

My cousin did LCA, he went to college and owns his own company that is still doing really well. Sounds like a better idea than the other LC to me as he said it's more continuous assessment and practical work.

rainbowtrout

RealJohn wrote: »

Personally, I think the system is fine as it is, except that all subjects carry equal weight for points regardless of the course. I think that points should also related to the course you're applying for.

For example, if two people were applying for a science course, we'll say they both get the same mark in maths, Irish and english and whatever foreign language they do. One student did biology, art and music and the other did biology, chemistry and physics. The chemistry and physics should clearly carry more weight than the art and music in applying for a science course (assuming the student didn't fail chemistry and/or physics obviously).
I'm not saying that someone who did art and music should be excluded from a science course but the person with more science subjects has already got a better base in science than the person with fewer science subjects so it would seem obvious that the person with the three science subjects should be offered the course before the person with one.

The problem here is it makes things far more complicated.
Say one student gets A1s in biology and chemistry and another gets C3s in biology, chemistry and physics. Now one student has a wider base but doesn't know it that well whereas the person who has a narrower range of knowledge knows what they know far better. How do we now distinguish between then?

To be honest, I think the real issue is with the universities. The CAO only runs the points system and checks to make sure students have the required subjects to the required level to be accepted. The CAO doesn't (as far as I know) set the course requirements. That's up to the universities. If the universities set their course requirements higher it will mean that more of the right people will get in and points will only become a factor between candidates who are otherwise equally suitable.

Ya it could get very complicated in deciding who gets into a course, but the universities could simplify it a little bit by removing ridiculous requirements which have no bearing on the course chosen by the student in a lot of cases. I know they have gone some way to doing this in recent years in certain areas such as engineering, but the whole thing of needing English, Irish, Maths and foreign language for entry to a whole host of NUI college courses is crazy.

I'm pretty sure that if you are not doing Engineering through Irish and don't plan on taking up an engineering job in the Gaeltacht that you probably won't need Irish for your degree, just the same as a person doing an English and History degree will not need maths.

I went to UL myself where it's English, Maths and Irish or a foreign language for basic entry requirements and I didn't see a lot of people being held back in the Science, Engineering and Technology courses because they didn't do French, German etc for their Leaving Cert.

Same with the Institutes of Technology which accept English or Irish along with Maths for basic entry requirements.

On the LCA thing, we don't have it in my school but a lot of our students would benefit from that mode of learning if we did. Many of those same students go on to do PLC after their Leaving Cert and do very well in it and progress to third level from there. The mode of assessment is very similar with projects and assignments and presentations. Some modules are completely assessed by continuous assessment and some have an end of year exam along with assignments. I've had many LCA students from other schools over the years and they have also done very well in PLC and gone to third level.

I too, would favour a Computer Science subject at Leaving Cert level. Both theory and practical: some basic programming, a bit of digital logic, operating systems, hardware, software. There's plenty of topics to choose from, and plenty of scope to allow it be a subject with a project element to it as well as having a terminal exam.

dambarude

I'm guessing one major obstacle to having IT as a subject would be the money required to roll it out and keep up to date software/hardware. I know they recently rolled out the new DCG course which uses a lot of IT, but that happened before the money situation got really serious.

I agree that an IT subject is badly needed - it's one I would have loved in school, rather than the once a week Computers classes on how to insert clipart.

Focalbhach

spurious wrote: »

That's more or less what the LCA does.
It's very much school-dependent on how it's run, but when run well, it's a fantastic course.

How is the continuous assessment/project-work-leading-to-final-grade handled in the LCA? Do teachers assess their own students, or does project work go to other teachers/other schools/a central body?

doc_17

It's a mixture of both. Teachers can monitor to see if certain key tasks have been achieved but there will also be external interviews at the end of the final year.

Focalbhach

Thanks. I'm just trying to get my head around how it might work as part of a re-worked LCE, and I'm not especially familiar with the workings of LCA.

So: do teachers currently involved in LCA find difficulties in assessing their own students for part of their final result? e.g., pressure from students or parents, self-imposed pressure, trying to ensure consistency and transparency in marking?

doc_17

i WAS NEVER UNDER PRESSURE FROM PARENTS OR STUDENTS..THE WORK THEY SUBMIT IS KEPT AND CHECKED OFF AND THERE'S USUALLY NO REAL FUSS MADE OVER IT....IF THEY DON'T HAND IT UP THEY DON'T GET CREDIT.


Apologies about the capitals!

cena

I did the LCA. It was great fun. Its more hands type thing. Theres alot more thinking to be done. In solving poblem etc. It also make students do there work as they know they won't get there credits. After I did it I went back for two more years too do the Leaving cert.

I was sitting down in school one day talking too the headmaster and told him I was going to do the lc. He thought I was a great thing too do.

Not many people can say they have two different leaving certs.
I'm very proud for what I did in going back know I wouldn't finish school till I was 21yrs. We even had a little day for my 21st in school.

boogle

I think the two-year cycle should be changed to two year-long examination periods. (Perhaps incorporating more continuous assessment/practical etc. also). When I think of my college exams, I couldn't imagine studying two years worth of material for one big final exam.

Focalbhach

cena wrote: »

I did the LCA. It was great fun. Its more hands type thing. Theres alot more thinking to be done. In solving poblem etc. It also make students do there work as they know they won't get there credits. After I did it I went back for two more years too do the Leaving cert.

I was sitting down in school one day talking too the headmaster and told him I was going to do the lc. He thought I was a great thing too do.

Not many people can say they have two different leaving certs.
I'm very proud for what I did in going back know I wouldn't finish school till I was 21yrs. We even had a little day for my 21st in school.

Good on you, it's the first time I've heard of someone doing both! Do you think the LCA work helped you with the LCE, or were they two completely different ways of working?

cena

Focalbhach wrote: »

Good on you, it's the first time I've heard of someone doing both! Do you think the LCA work helped you with the LCE, or were they two completely different ways of working?

If I'm the only person in ireland with the two I should get an award.

Their is less pressure in the l.c.a I found the leaving cert much harder. I think it was the two yrs of the l.c.a didn't follow on with jr cert subject in away.

Take home ec. I did it for the lc never done it before and bits in the l.c were in the jr cert as well. So i had too work on the subject harder.

I think the lc should go down the same root as the L.C.A. It really take the pressure away.