Get rid of the angelus?

Executive Steve

hotmail.com wrote: »

Anyway, we're a republic, that means that no religion is given any preference. Anything that receives state money cannot endorse any religion, it's indisputable.

hotmail.com wrote: »

Republic of Ireland is the hint.

A republic doesn't give any preference to any religion.

Actually, strictly speaking, there's absolutely nothing implicit in the idea of a Republic that it can not or should not endorse any particular religion; obviously most people are familiar with the United States constitution which specifically prohibits their state from meddling with religious affairs, but the preamble to the Irish constitution very explicitly states:

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,

We, the people of Éire,

Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,

Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,

And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,

Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

In the same way Iran is an (Islamic) Republic, our state was founded as a Catholic Republic - although because the founders of our state had a very limited knowledge of politics they chose not to make a true Republic with seperate branches for the Executive, Legislative and Legal branches, but instead copied the old Parliamentary Monarchy system with an elected "President" instead of a royal family.

Hope this helps.

itac

So, from what I can deduce over the last 13 pages of well reasoned debate, people take issue with the fact it's a call to prayer?

So if they get rid of "DONG....DONG...." and religious imagery (which I think they have?); all we have left is a pause for the thought kinda piece....?

Would that make anti-Angelus peoples happier?

Joey the lips

oh no it isnt...... :P

Solair

While it's not the most important thing in Church-State separation it is a highly symbolic one.

It's quite shocking that in 2011 we still have what is really a hark back to the era of Dev and Archbishop John Charles McQuaid - a very dark era of state/church oppression in Ireland that completely derailed Irish republican values, replacing them with a quasi-theocracy.

I think it's long past due that our public service broadcaster dropped this. It's not religious programming, which is a far more broad and inclusive thing. It's a twice daily call to prayer which is exclusively Roman Catholic, despite the spin and fancy secular video clips used to dress it up.

RTE is a state service. I don't see this as any different to pausing your 6pm Dublin-Cork InterCity rail service while CIE plays bongs and asks people to bless themselves. It simply wouldn't happen in this day and age, but for some reason when RTE does it, it's fine.

It's not about being anti-Catholic or anti-anything. The state broadcaster is supposed to be a neutral space. It should not be endorsing any religion or any private organisation by giving it a 1 min prime time advertising slot on radio and on TV daily.

I wonder how much that's worth, if I were to pay for a prime time ad slot 1 min before the main evening news?

Will they be rolling this free ad service to other faiths?

Freddie59

johnners2981 wrote: »

Show me some proof of god. What if I started going on about my invisible friend simon who I talk to in my head, yeah you'd think I was crazy. Thats what I think of religious people.

So it's not just about the angelus (as usual:rolleyes:). It's about belittling people of faith who don't bother you. I accept that you do not believe - but will not castigate or ridicule you for it. It is your own business. all I (and others like me ) ask is that you reciprocate this.

johnners2981 wrote: »

To be honest I wouldn't give a damn about religion but its forced into my life, just like the angelus. Why should I have to baptise my kids to make sure they get accepted into a school, why should my kids be taught religion?

Hmm. "Forced" into your life. I take it then that you have allowed your children to be baptised, and receive the sacraments. You submitted them for acceptance to that school. If I were that bothered I would go to the ends of the Earth to put them in a different school. But that's just me.;):)

And as for the Angelus? There is a mute button, and - gasp:eek: - an off button on your TV set.

Freddie59

ColeTrain wrote: »

Get rid of it and while we're at it, lets do away with the Catholic schools, alcohol bans on 'Good Friday' and anything else involving religion and state.
I've no problem with people practicing religion but let them do it on their own accord.

Yeah. Get rid of the schools without which any of us would not have received an education.:rolleyes: Old saying: "eaten bread is soon forgotten". How very true.

Freddie59

Jess16 wrote: »

To be honest, I think this is less to do with the Angelus and more to do with whinging opportunists simply waiting to grind their axe.

Seriously, to what extent can a meagre two minutes per day actually impact on someone's life? And if it does, why are you watching in the first place?

It seems we're all too willing to go out of our way to cater for minority groups in this country yet people are pilloried for wanting to support our own culture

Very well put.

Freddie59

johnners2981 wrote: »

Minority groups, I don't think so. Seriously how many people actually believe in a god anymore.

Sure the census might say the majority are catholic but that's because mammys all over Ireland fill it in for their precious little god believing children.

I have to say I lose respect for a young person who believes in god, are they really that thick

My, you are so antagonised - for whatever reason. Your 'opinion' on our young people leaves an awful lot to be desired really. I find it quite repugnant.

Their 'God believing little children'. I must say you have an extremely polarised view of modern Irish society if that is what you really think.

Freddie59

ScumLord wrote: »

And that's part of the problem with most religion, they basically stopped looking for god and accepted what they where told no matter how much it flew in the face of what actually happens in gods world. Science is the closest anyone will get to understanding god, should he exist.

This would be the Science that preaches that there was nothing; then there was everything - and nobody did it?:p

Oh - I forgot. They're now claiming that the Universe was originally 45cm long............:rolleyes:

Freddie59

Ghost Buster wrote: »

A country where a bare and dwindling majority call them selves catholic

optogirl

mossyc123 wrote: »

your kids learning about Religion in school as some sort of a major problem.


There are more important things to be worrying about, like the fact that your kids will be paying massive taxes (if they manage to get a job) because of leadership failures in political and financial institutions over the last few years.

You just don't understand the fact that for those of us who want nothing to do with religion, our kids being indoctrined is offensive. Often we have little or no choice in this. Religious people bang on about having respect for their beliefs, can you not see that we would like some respect for ours too?

doomed

Compromise: Change the tune.

Many years ago Laurel and Hardy visited Cork and the shandon bells played their theme tune. Do that with the angelus. Kind of appropriate given where the country has found itself.

Amhran Nua

Jess16 wrote: »

Therefore its customs and beliefs are the ones that are predominantly practiced

I must have missed where the bible said "thou shalt have a donging bell on before the six o'clock news every night".

Jess16 wrote: »

Of course not all people belong to the Catholic faith but unless they wish to devote themselves to endlessly fighting the power, they should learn to simply accept the dominant traditions of their environment or reside somewhere where their choices are prioritised.

There was an Ireland long before the Catholic church existed, and I absolutely guarantee there will be an Ireland long after the Catholic church is consigned to dusty history books for people to shake their heads and marvel at.

Jess16 wrote: »

we deal with this by prioritising the majority whilst being inclusive of the minority.

From the poll above though, as far as we are aware, there doesn't appear to be majority support for the Angelus. Have you any other sources of information on the matter? I don't mean how many are Catholic, since the donging bell in this case isn't an essential part of Catholic rites or traditions.

Paparazzo

They should red button it. If rte knew exactly how many people would actually press a button to watch it by choice it would be gone in a flash.

OldGoat

How many times does the bell peal in the minute?

Pace2008

Freddie59 wrote: »

You've not got your ear to ground with the youth, lad, if you think the Church's days in Ireland aren't numbered.

Freddie59 wrote: »

This would be the Science that preaches that there was nothing; then there was everything - and nobody did it?

HERP DERP, I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT SO IT MAKES NO SENSE

hotmail.com

Executive Steve wrote: »

Actually, strictly speaking, there's absolutely nothing implicit in the idea of a Republic that it can not or should not endorse any particular religion; obviously most people are familiar with the United States constitution which specifically prohibits their state from meddling with religious affairs, but the preamble to the Irish constitution very explicitly states:




In the same way Iran is an (Islamic) Republic, our state was founded as a Catholic Republic - although because the founders of our state had a very limited knowledge of politics they chose not to make a true Republic with seperate branches for the Executive, Legislative and Legal branches, but instead copied the old Parliamentary Monarchy system with an elected "President" instead of a royal family.

Hope this helps.

All that quote shows is that the writers of the constitution were religious and believed in a god. As were some of the writers of the US constitution. It does not specify any preference for one religion and the part that mentioned giving the Catholic religion a "special position" was removed in a 1969 referendum.

So you are factually wrong. This is a republic and it's just taking us longer to actually understand what that term means...it does not mean anti-monarch, it means everyone is treated equally regardless of religion, class, background etc.

Irish people need to be schooled on that definition.

mossyc123

optogirl wrote: »

You just don't understand the fact that for those of us who want nothing to do with religion, our kids being indoctrined is offensive. Often we have little or no choice in this. Religious people bang on about having respect for their beliefs, can you not see that we would like some respect for ours too?

Your kids, if they can't manage to get to an Educate Together School, can sit out Communion & Confirmation Preperation.

If there really is this so called overwhelming majority who don't want anything to do with Catholic faith those kids will soon be the majority and those preparing for the Sacraments the minority.

As for morning prayers, the angelus, etc are these really observed in schools at all these days?

If they are you have grounds for some grievance as this isn't fair on non-religious parents and kids.

To be honest though, I would say it is the exception rather then the rule these days.

mossyc123

hotmail.com wrote: »

All that quote shows is that the writers of the constitution were religious and believed in a god. As were some of the writers of the US constitution. It does not specify any preference for one religion and the part that mentioned giving the Catholic religion a "special position" was removed in a 1969 referendum.

So you are factually wrong. This is a republic and it's just taking us longer to actually understand what that term means...it does not mean anti-monarch, it means everyone is treated equally regardless of religion, class, background etc.

Irish people need to be schooled on that definition.

Definition of Republic:

A Republic is a Democracy without a Monarch as Head of State.

Your just interpreting the meaning to suit your own ends.

hotmail.com

mossyc123 wrote: »

Definition of Republic:

A Republic is a Democracy without a Monarch as Head of State.

Your just interpreting the meaning to suit your own ends.

Wolfe Tone's interpretation of a republic. And many many others.

The consequence of everyone being treated equally is that there is no monarchy.

Edit: do you actually want states to give preference to the religion of the majority??

ScumLord

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Sure, but science is unlikely to discover either eternal life or the secrets of the afterlife,

Not exactly true, some reckon the first thousand year old human has already been born. The possibilities of science are truly limitless, every time we over come one hurdle it just shows the direction to another grander hurdle. Science in a way is bringing the god we imagine into the real world.

Freddie59 wrote: »

This would be the Science that preaches that there was nothing; then there was everything - and nobody did it?:p

Oh - I forgot. They're now claiming that the Universe was originally 45cm long............:rolleyes:

No this is the science that has you sitting in front of a computer impossible to imagine 100 years ago, that makes your clothes cheap, that brings you to and from work and on far flung holidays. You live science everyday.

Paparazzo wrote: »

They should red button it. If rte knew exactly how many people would actually press a button to watch it by choice it would be gone in a flash.

Irish way - "nobodies watching it!" -- "Force the cnuts!"

hotmail.com wrote: »

All that quote shows is that the writers of the constitution were religious and believed in a god. As were some of the writers of the US constitution. It does not specify any preference for one religion and the part that mentioned giving the Catholic religion a "special position" was removed in a 1969 referendum.

I thought many of the USA founding fathers where very opposed to religion?

hotmail.com

ScumLord wrote: »

I thought many of the USA founding fathers where very opposed to religion?

Some of them were athiests, some were believers and some were deiests. There is a popular myth in America that all were strong believers, that's not the case at all.

mossyc123

hotmail.com wrote: »

Wolfe Tone's interpretation of a republic. And many many others.

The consequence of everyone being treated equally is that there is no monarchy.

Edit: do you actually want states to give preference to the religion of the majority??

That interpretation was made at a time when only a few wealthy land owning Catholics could vote.

Religious equality was a real issue back then.

Edit: No, I just don't want the State try and reshape the Cultural traditions of society in the name of "progress" and "inclusiveness".

A foreigner coming to Ireland today would have no clue that the broadcasts of The Angelus or A Prayer at Bedtime was a Catholic tradition.

Jimoslimos

Not concerned, although when internet control and censorship gets so bad that everyone's browser is hijacked at 6:00pm every day and its forced upon us I may then form a stronger opinion.

housetypeb

Would god be pissed off if catholics didn't bless themselves every day at 6 o clock on the dot?

fontanalis

hotmail.com wrote: »

Some of them were athiests, some were believers and some were deiests. There is a popular myth in America that all were strong believers, that's not the case at all.

Their beliefs are irrelevant. Just the role they expected religion to play in government.

mossyc123

ScumLord wrote: »

I thought many of the USA founding fathers where very opposed to religion?

They were opposed to the idea of Religion being used as a tool to oppress,divide, cause civil strife and war.

They were all Christians (Church of England/Episcopalian, Presbyterians,Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists)

Many of the 1st Americans had fled religious persucution in Europe and as a result freedom of Religion was and still is a cornerstone of American Society.

ScumLord

mossyc123 wrote: »

They were opposed to the idea of Religion being used as a tool to oppress,divide, cause civil strife and war.

They were all Christians (Church of England/Episcopalian, Presbyterians,Catholics, Lutherans and Methodists)

Many of the 1st Americans had fled religious persucution in Europe and as a result freedom of Religion was and still is a cornerstone of American Society.

I had been sure they weren't Christian at all but turns out some were Deists. Other quotes from others show they weren't very Christian and saw it's flaws. http://www.skeptically.org/thinkersonreligion/id9.html

fontanalis

ScumLord wrote: »

I had been sure they weren't Christian at all but turns out some were Deists. Other quotes from others show they weren't very Christian and saw it's flaws. http://www.skeptically.org/thinkersonreligion/id9.html

It's very strange isn't it when you consider these days how religous politicians there claim to be/have to claim to be.

mossyc123

ScumLord wrote: »

I had been sure they weren't Christian at all but turns out some were Deists. Other quotes from others show they weren't very Christian and saw it's flaws. http://www.skeptically.org/thinkersonreligion/id9.html

They were all Christians with differing degrees of affiliiation to different Churches.

From Wikipedia:

"Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and three were Roman Catholics (C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.
A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson[12][13][14] (who created the so-called "Jefferson Bible") and Benjamin Franklin.[15] A few others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists "