Are cars slower than bikes

clonmahon

Found this at http://www.lightfootcycles.com/economics_of_bicycling.php

Interesting idea.

"In 1974, Ivan Illich estimated that the average American male devoted more than 1,600 hours a year to his car to drive it, park it, wash it and earn the money to pay for the car, its insurance and maintenance. At that period in history, the average American male only drove 7,500 miles yearly, which meant that he drove at an effective speed of less than five miles per hour expended (Ivan Illich, Energy and Equity, 1974)."

clonmahon

clonmahon wrote: »

Found this at http://www.lightfootcycles.com/economics_of_bicycling.php

Interesting idea.

"In 1974, Ivan Illich estimated that the average American male devoted more than 1,600 hours a year to his car to drive it, park it, wash it and earn the money to pay for the car, its insurance and maintenance. At that period in history, the average American male only drove 7,500 miles yearly, which meant that he drove at an effective speed of less than five miles per hour expended (Ivan Illich, Energy and Equity, 1974)."

If you took into account the amount of time most people on here spend maintaining their bikes, fettling with them, cleaning them, buying upgrades, browsing bike sites looking for upgrades, earning the money to buy the upgrades, riding on turbo trainers etc. etc. etc. our average speed would probably come out at 0.5 mph! :pac:

tomasrojo

Richard Ballantine makes much the same point in Richard's Bicycle Book. He also makes the point that people could afford better holidays, home extensions or whatever they fancy, or perhaps even retire earlier if they could forgo owning a car. That may seem to be stating the obvious, but I think it's not obvious to some, as a lot of people don't think about how many hours a week they work to support their car.

Maybe most people don't fancy trying life with one car or no car, but it would be instructive to find out exactly how much a car (or two) costs them every year anyway.

clonmahon

According to the AA the average cost of running a small car is now 11,817 euro a year.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfgbmheyidoj/rss2/

If the average industrial wage is 36000 euro, then it's almost one third of a years labour just to pay for it, 4 months at work. Add the time spent driving, and maintaining the car and the miles per hour are looking very poor indeed.

monument

As has been mentioned here before: it's well documented that, while cars can still reach higher speeds, when it comes to average speeds and travel times cycling wins.

reallyunique

After tax, a single person will get around 29k so that "average" car will cost around 40% of all that an "average" person earns. Statistics like that should reduce the requirement for laxatives quite sharply! The problem is that cars are like cigarettes, they're cool and once you've tried one it's really hard to stop using.

Despite being fat'n'fifty (nearly) and massively unfit I can still pedal to Dun Laoghaire or Howth in not much longer than it takes to drive at peak times and that's on a 10yr old MTB so the speed/price ratio is going to be pretty large for most people with relatively short journeys.

Best thing to do is get your kids out on bikes and teach them how cheap cycling is and how expensive cars are. Might save them a fortune later on that they can spend on you in your old age

challengemaster

clonmahon wrote: »

According to the AA the average cost of running a small car is now 11,817 euro a year.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfgbmheyidoj/rss2/

If the average industrial wage is 36000 euro, then it's almost one third of a years labour just to pay for it, 4 months at work. Add the time spent driving, and maintaining the car and the miles per hour are looking very poor indeed.

If you happen to read the motors forum at all, this was discussed and found to be complete BS made up by the AA, cost of running a car yearly is nowhere near that.

tomasrojo

€11,000+ a year seems too high. But has anyone calculated their own figure for how much it costs the average person to run a car?

tomasrojo

Couple of estimates here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056350568

Lowest seems to be about 2.5k per annum, with a few about three or four times that.

clonmahon

But even if the true figure is half what the AA say, it still takes between 2 and 3 months of average industrial labour a year to pay for a car. It would also seem that in the longer term the cost of fuel is going up, meaning the labour required to keep a car on the road will grow. Every time fuel goes up, the economics of cycling look better.

Ste.phen

clonmahon wrote: »

But even if the true figure is half what the AA say, it still takes between 2 and 3 months of average industrial labour a year to pay for a car. It would also seem that in the longer term the cost of fuel is going up, meaning the labour required to keep a car on the road will grow. Every time fuel goes up, the economics of cycling look better.

My commute to work is almost certainly faster by bike than car, by at least 50% i'd say. Which means a car is generally useful to me 2 days of the week. For my [current] transport needs it would probably be cheaper to rent one when I need it rather than own one (for a given standard of car).

I wonder if Zipcar would take off here?

tomasrojo

Ste.phen wrote: »

For my [current] transport needs it would probably be cheaper to rent one when I need it rather than own one (for a given standard of car).

I wonder if Zipcar would take off here?

These are already operating in Cork and Dublin.
http://www.gocar.ie

I joined and I'm very happy with them.

They have ten bases in Dublin, and unless my last email from them contains a typo, they hope to have two hundred bases by the end of 2013.


EDIT: Small article here. http://irishcarman.blogspot.com/2011/03/gocar-expands-fleet-with-ford.html
They have more bases than that now.

HivemindXX

People certainly don't properly account for how much a car costs to run. However the same is probably true of cyclists. I probably spend a couple of hundred euro a year on my bike. Still only 10% of the lowball number for motorists. A lot of my costs are incurred because I use the bike for recreation as well as simple transport. If I just used it to commute to work my costs would be a hell of a lot lower.

As far as speed is concerned it's very dependent on where you are. My old commute from one part of the city centre to another was FAAAAR faster by bike. My current commute from the city centre to the outskirts takes me around the same on the bike as it would in a car. Anyone going more than a couple of km outside the urban area would probably be faster by car.

Don't forget to take excercise time in to account. I used to work with someone who travelled more or less the same distance as me in the same time. He drove and I cycled and he spent two hours a week in the gym sitting on a stationary bike while I sat in front of the TV eating cream cakes.

So for me cycling is a lot cheaper, often faster and it gets me fitter than I would be if I drove everywhere. On the relatively rare times I need to carry a lot of stuff or go a long way I can pay for a van/taxi/train and still be way ahead both from a financial and convenience perspective.

BostonB

clonmahon wrote: »

But even if the true figure is half what the AA say, it still takes between 2 and 3 months of average industrial labour a year to pay for a car. It would also seem that in the longer term the cost of fuel is going up, meaning the labour required to keep a car on the road will grow. Every time fuel goes up, the economics of cycling look better.

While you can't beat a bicycle for low cost. You can do Bangernomics and buy something cheap qith a 1L and run it till it stops for not much money.

tomasrojo

BostonB wrote: »

While you can't beat a bicycle for low cost. You can do Bangernomics and buy something cheap qith a 1L and run it till it stops for not much money.

Just out of interest (I know very little about these things, and have to use guesswork), how much, do you reckon, roughly, to run a cheap one-litre car, assuming travel of 16000km per annum (the figure the AA used above)? I assume getting the car to pass the NCT probably puts a limit on how much of a banger you can run?

manwithaplan

Very quick calculation (and I haven't looked at any of the links off this thread):

Depreciation - €500
Fuel - €1,200 (assumes 5 litres per 100 km at €1.50 per litre)
Insurance - €500
Motor tax - €100
Maintenance - €400
Parking - €150

Total - €2,850

clonmahon

I can answer that because in our house we pratice bangernomics (didn’t have a name from it before). I bought a one litre 1996 Nissan Micra in December for 650 euro. It had almost 2 years NCT left. It has cost us 200 for servicing, 463 for tax and insurance, and we have put just over 1400 of fuel in it so far.

I don’t know how many miles we got for that but my wife does a lot of traveling all over Ireland, so the mileage is high. We both drive very carefully to save fuel.

The only problem with Bangernomics is that someone else has to buy the new car and suffer the massive cost of deprecation so that I can buy the banger.

BostonB

We run a 11yr old 1L, costs tax 172, ins 300, NCT 50, a service is about 150. Though often we do it ourselves or do it every other year. Car is worth nothing so no depreciation now. Over the 11yrs I don't think the car has had nothing other than regular services. It only gets filled about once every 3 or 4 weeks. Which is about 40~50 euro. So thats about 700, + 600 fuel ish.

Had a choice this year to keep it, do some major servicing or get rid of it. Decided to do the work and keep it running. It has always passed the NCT without any work,but this time it will needs some body work and lights, as people keep running into it lately. A small car older car will often have very little extra's so its cheap to fix, parts are cheap, little to break. The down side, is they are not ideal for long journeys, and a 4x4 will obliterate it.

I generally only use this when I'm not cycling though.

tomasrojo

So about the lowest you can get the per-annum cost is €1300. That's pretty cheap! I think using the GoCar costs me about €400-500 a year, but I don't use it that frequently. Might use it a bit more in the future.

DePurpereWolf

I think most of us would have a car anyway. Maybe for groceries, for the weekend or for emergencies. I cycle to work every day. But I found it hard not having a car at all. Hauling 15KG of dogfood on a bike is a bit nuts.
I play saxophone so I need a car to go to practice and to gigs

So I'm only really saving on maintenance and fuel costs.

It would be nice if they could also relate the motortax to the amount of km you drive a year.

tomasrojo

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

Hauling 15KG of dogfood on a bike is a bit nuts.

I haul the weekly shop, which is over 30kg (I think) on the bike. Well, behind the bike; I use a trailer.

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

I play saxophone so I need a car to go to practice and to gigs

I play classical guitar at weddings and functions (and teach), and I use the trailer for carrying the guitar in hard case. I use a Roland Micro Cube if amplification is needed; I can get that in a pannier.

You do get a small bit of attention, but it's mostly positive. I think nearly every time I go out someone asks me where I got it, or says "that's a good idea". Also: "did you make that yourself?"

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

It would be nice if they could also relate the motortax to the amount of km you drive a year.

Definitely. As it stands, once you've paid your fixed costs, you might as well drive a fair bit, as the additional cost for the travel itself is quite small for modest distances (or so I understand).

clonmahon

When I gave the price of my motoring above, I forgot to add that we use bikes and walking in our house for a lot of short journeys. My daughter walks to school about 2/3 mile, the local village is 2 miles away so that journey is also done by bike and if I have business in Cavan Town I usually travel by bike. These short journeys with a cold engine are very hard on fuel and engine wear.

DePurpereWolf

@Tomasrojo

Well, I used to live up St Patricks Hill in Cork.

I admire you for your non-carness. But you're not the average person.

tomasrojo

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

@Tomasrojo

Well, I used to live up St Patricks Hill in Cork.

I admire you for your non-carness. But you're not the average person.

No, I'm a bit more enthusiastic about trailers and things than the average person!

But, as I understand it, quite a few people use the GoCar scheme for doing the weekly shop. Of course, that's only of any use if you live near a GoCar base.

I think a lot of the value of the scheme is liberating people from the second car, rather than cars completely. Second cars cost a lot of money too.

BostonB

BostonB wrote: »

We run a 11yr old 1L, costs tax 172, ins 300, NCT 50, a service is about 150. Though often we do it ourselves or do it every other year. Car is worth nothing so no depreciation now. Over the 11yrs I don't think the car has had nothing other than regular services. It only gets filled about once every 3 or 4 weeks. Which is about 40~50 euro. So thats about 700, + 600 fuel ish.

Had a choice this year to keep it, do some major servicing or get rid of it. Decided to do the work and keep it running. It has always passed the NCT without any work,but this time it will needs some body work and lights, as people keep running into it lately. A small car older car will often have very little extra's so its cheap to fix, parts are cheap, little to break. The down side, is they are not ideal for long journeys, and a 4x4 will obliterate it.

I generally only use this when I'm not cycling though.

18 year old car, €333 tax, insurance is up near €960 or so but that's my first policy, NCT 50, Maintenance I'm putting at 250 a year. Fuel is the big one really. I think I'm spending around €2000 to €3000 on it this year, which should hopefully come down with a reduction in insurance!

BostonB

You might want to look for an old diesel if you are doing a lot of mileage. Though the extra they cost to buy might out weight any saving.

BostonB

BostonB wrote: »

You might want to look for an old diesel if you are doing a lot of mileage. Though the extra they cost to buy might out weight any saving.

Got the car I have now for free.

Oh, to clear up confusion - €2000 to €3000 was the overall figure, not just for fuel.

clonmahon

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

@Tomasrojo

Well, I used to live up St Patricks Hill in Cork.

I admire you for your non-carness. But you're not the average person.

But I think Tomasrojo shows what can be done. Sure lots of people live in situations and places where doing everything by bike would be difficult, but many people don't, they use the car because they think its handy. But if they are paying big money for a new car, they maybe losing more time paying for the car than they are saving by using it.

BostonB

...or you just might have a bad knee...or someone with mobility problems.. etc.

Still if someone sees someone else, (especially if they know them) not using their car, it may encourage them to do the same.

cdaly_

clonmahon wrote: »

The only problem with Bangernomics is that someone else has to buy the new car and suffer the massive cost of deprecation so that I can buy the banger.

There's a decent chance that it would have been scrapped otherwise so your buying of a banger is just as likely to result in one less new car purchase...

clonmahon

cdaly_ wrote: »

There's a decent chance that it would have been scrapped otherwise so your buying of a banger is just as likely to result in one less new car purchase...

My point was that every car driver can't do bangernomics, someone has to buy new cars

Pigeon Reaper

Because I cycle to work and for short journeys I got a nice classic car. It only gets out every few weeks as I hate driving around town. Because I don't need to use a car I can choose the most incredibily stupid cars possible without any trouble. Running costs aren't a factor in the decision as the milage s so low. I currently spend more on bicycle upkeep than the car but then I do 5 times the distance by bicycle each year than I drive.

bad2dabone

I started cycling into work about 8 weeks ago, 10km door to door. If I was getting the bus it was costing me about 20 quid a week, or 1040 per year. I'd leave at ten past 8 and get into my office about 9.20, including waiting for the bus and walking from the nearest stop to my office. Because i'm a fatso I'd often be overheated on the bus and arrrive into work a little sweaty, not too bad, but the kind of sweaty that can get stinky on a hot day. If I drove in i'd have to leave before 8 and pay for parking for the day. Now I leave at 8, and i'm showered and lovely at my desk for ten to 9. This morning it took me 21 mins, door to door. I've also lost like 6lbs. So all in all cycling is faster for my commute, healthier, cheaper. Better.

DePurpereWolf

I never understood busses, (except when it snows and the roads are not gridded)

You pay E1.40 for the bus to come whenever, shotty service, hot and loud, and cramped seats for something I can walk in 50 minutes or bike in 15.

DePurpereWolf

DePurpereWolf wrote: »

I never understood busses, (except when it snows and the roads are not gridded)

http://www.bike24.de/1.php?lang=2;content=8;navigation=1;menu=1000,2,103,105;product=7245