*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2012*

MtHanrahan

jumpguy wrote: »

The log book idea is then flimsy. You could easily get your friendly local GP to sign you off, which'd be unfair to those who genuinely try to get the necessary experience. It'd be a pointless piece of bureaucracy.

In reality, the job of the HPAT was to balance the male-female ratio entering medicine, which it succeeded at. I also think it adds an element of ability-under-stress to the assessment.

I am concerned about how people repeating the HPAT fare better much of the time, and that's one issue I'd definitely like to see sorted. Sitting the HPAT for the first time shouldn't put you at a major disadvantage compared to veteran sitters. I suspect the reason the HPAT scores this year didn't rise is because the turnover of repeats sitting the HPAT has now stabilised. I also suspect section 3 is at the heart of many problems with the HPAT, but the people with all the answers will be those with access to the statistics on score and score rises in repeats. No real conclusion can be made until a report is released.

I think assessment will have to stay quite anonymous, given that we have the unique problem compared to the UK of being a small, quite well-connected nation with culture that often promotes the individual good over the common good. It's not as easy as "we'll do the same thing they do there!" Besides, the UK system suffers from its own flaws, even with their population being roughly 10 times greater than ours.

Ya just wanted to point out that yes one of the aims was to rebalance the male-female ratio and it only managed to do this for the first 2 years I believe. After that it has more or less returned to the way it was.

jumpguy

MtHanrahan wrote: »

Ya just wanted to point out that yes one of the aims was to rebalance the male-female ratio and it only managed to do this for the first 2 years I believe. After that it has more or less returned to the way it was.

What source do you have for this? Looking at my own class, and leaving out the international students, the male-female ratio is roughly 50:50 (I think actually there may be a few more males.)

Pugzilla

jumpguy wrote: »

What source do you have for this? Looking at my own class, and leaving out the international students, the male-female ratio is roughly 50:50 (I think actually there may be a few more males.)

No way is that possible, my year has a nearly 70:30 ratio in favour of females.

jumpguy

Pugzilla wrote: »

No way is that possible, my year has a nearly 70:30 ratio in favour of females.

Did you start in September 2011, and is that discounting international students?

MtHanrahan

jumpguy wrote: »

What source do you have for this? Looking at my own class, and leaving out the international students, the male-female ratio is roughly 50:50 (I think actually there may be a few more males.)

I think I heard it on the radio at the time. More than likely the Pat Kenny show on RTÉ 1. but if you want a source right now then the third and second last paragraphs on this back me up http://igenders.tumblr.com/post/25018392572/testing-institutional-discrimination

Pugzilla

jumpguy wrote: »

Did you start in September 2011, and is that discounting international students?

I started in 2010. The majority of irish students in NUIG's medical school are female. It's especially apparent in lab groups and it's not a bad thing.

It means you'll have less competition for training schemes when you qualify if the powers that be want to keep the old boys' club or even just to preserve gender balance. That's not taking into account those that get knocked up or want to work part-time.

jumpguy

MtHanrahan wrote: »

I think I heard it on the radio at the time. More than likely the Pat Kenny show on RTÉ 1. but if you want a source right now then the third and second last paragraphs on this back me up http://igenders.tumblr.com/post/25018392572/testing-institutional-discrimination

Fair enough, and actually I forgot about a key group when I was thinking of the males and females entering my year (as some, around 20 I think, go straight into first year medicine, and around 60 going into premed.)

I'll reserve my judgement of the HPAT until the report is out, but if it's failing to even balance the male-female ratio entering medicine, then it's not looking good...

nogivingup

I am a Med student and I can honestly say that the ratio of males to females in my class is 50:50. The HPAT has succeeded in ensuring that there is a balance, in the top bracket at least.

Also, in realtion to the comments stating that the gap between Trinity and NUIG will be bridged- this can't happen. Given the fact that the HPAT scores have stagnated the rise should be universal with all colleges rising in terms of points. For there to be a smaller points difference between NUIG and TCD, then Leaving Cert results would have to be very, very close which, despite what you may believe, won't happen. People are considering the Maths points to be of greater importance than they are- most people in my class took Honours Maths and had over 550 points so most will only be getting 5 bonus points. I don't believe that that many people capable of receiving a high HPAT score will have a Leaving Cert of under 550!

Personally, I feel that the minimum points requirement for Medicine should rise from 480 to 550 as someone with less than 550 points is likely to struggle in Medicine. This would still ease pressure on Leaving Cert students (as was the aim when the HPAT was introduced) by allowing for a margn of error- you don't need 590/600 points to get Medicine but you still need to do reasonably well.

The fact that the Honours Maths points have the capability of allowing someone with 505 (before adding Maths points) points to get a place in Medicine is an absolute joke. 505 is a mediocre Leaving Cert and someone with this score does not deserve a place in the most highly demanded course in the country.

Canard

Not to mention the fact that some might only get 20 points for HL maths - e.g. getting 120 points for it instead of counting an A1 (would be strange, but possible).

But hey, 505 isn't mediocre, it's way above average and anything above 500 is the 92nd percentile. I guess for medicine it is though.

nogivingup

Patchy~ wrote: »

Not to mention the fact that some might only get 20 points for HL maths - e.g. getting 120 points for it instead of counting an A1 (would be strange, but possible).

But hey, 505 isn't mediocre, it's way above average and anything above 500 is the 92nd percentile. I guess for medicine it is though.

When you're talking about Medicine, anything below 550 is Mediocre. Anyone in my class not getting an Entrance Scholarship (for 560+) was ridiculed.

You're absolutely right about people not getting the full 25 points! Someone with 6 A1s with an A2 in Maths now gets 615, as opposed to the 625 you may expect them to get.
Is it just me or do these Maths points destroy the true meaning of Leaving Cert points? On results day people will be claiming to have massively inflated LC points- it's really just ridiculous.

dcam

nogivingup wrote: »

When you're talking about Medicine, anything below 550 is Mediocre. Anyone in my class not getting an Entrance Scholarship (for 560+) was ridiculed.

You're absolutely right about people not getting the full 25 points! Someone with 6 A1s with an A2 in Maths now gets 615, as opposed to the 625 you may expect them to get.
Is it just me or do these Maths points destroy the true meaning of Leaving Cert points? On results day people will be claiming to have massively inflated LC points- it's really just ridiculous.

You're absolutely right I think it's really wrong to give extra points for HL maths meaning that someone who has worked their ass off and achieved 5 or 6A1's or close to it but who did not do HL maths will not receive the credit that others would have gotten in previous years with the exact same points due to all these people with 625. No subject is more important than another and the sooner the department realise this the better. They are supposedly giving these bonus points to encourage students to study maths at third level but you can use these points to get into any course how does that make any sense?

Canard

Well I dunno, if someone can get 6 A1s should they not be able for HL maths? Personally I'm hoping for a C3/D1 in it to offset geography which went badly, but overall I'll probably only end up with a 5-10 net gain in points from it.

On one hand the reality is that maths takes up a lot more time and was my most difficult subject by a million miles, but if you're extremely maths-orientated you won't even need the incentive I guess.

My opinion is that subjects like maths/French should be worth more for courses like engineering/languages, thats how the French system works, and it makes so much more sense - but I guess it has its flaws too, e.g. someone who doesnt get to do applied maths being at a huge disadvantage in competing for their course even if they were able for it.

Darksider

nogivingup wrote: »

When you're talking about Medicine, anything below 550 is Mediocre. Anyone in my class not getting an Entrance Scholarship (for 560+) was ridiculed.

You're absolutely right about people not getting the full 25 points! Someone with 6 A1s with an A2 in Maths now gets 615, as opposed to the 625 you may expect them to get.
Is it just me or do these Maths points destroy the true meaning of Leaving Cert points? On results day people will be claiming to have massively inflated LC points- it's really just ridiculous.

wow are they really the type of people i'm going to study with in medicine? ridiculing someone for getting below 560 even though they still got admission?

that kind of elitism is absolutely shocking to me, and this is coming from someone who got more than that in the mocks so i'm not really taking it on a personal level or anything.

Taco Chips

dcam wrote: »

You're absolutely right I think it's really wrong to give extra points for HL maths meaning that someone who has worked their ass off and achieved 5 or 6A1's or close to it but who did not do HL maths will not receive the credit that others would have gotten in previous years with the exact same points due to all these people with 625. No subject is more important than another and the sooner the department realise this the better. They are supposedly giving these bonus points to encourage students to study maths at third level but you can use these points to get into any course how does that make any sense?

Honours maths is well documented to be much more difficult however, and far fewer people do well in it than in other subjects. So the case is there to show that it requires much more work across the board for students to succeed in, so wouldn't it just be fair that extra work is rewarded with extra points?

Darksider wrote: »

wow are they really the type of people i'm going to study with in medicine? ridiculing someone for getting below 560 even though they still got admission?

that kind of elitism is absolutely shocking to me, and this is coming from someone who got more than that in the mocks so i'm not really taking it on a personal level or anything.

Agreed. And it's untrue. I'm assuming the OP is referring to TCD since he mentioned the Entrance Exhibition. I go to TCD and I am friends with a lot of people in Med. There was no ridicule of people who weren't at the Entrance Exhibition. In fact, there was little to no mention of LC points at all after the first week. People are too busy coping with the work that the course brings to be caught up in what become trivialities once you start.

QueenOfLeon

nogivingup wrote: »

When you're talking about Medicine, anything below 550 is Mediocre. Anyone in my class not getting an Entrance Scholarship (for 560+) was ridiculed.

Well since the majority of universities only give entrance scholarships to the top ~10% combined LC/HPAT scores, you're talking about ridiculing 90% of your class...wherever you are, that sounds ridiculous. For my class, people who got the scholarship were congratulated by everyone else and there was certainly no elitism between those who did and didn't get it.

I know people who had a "below average" (in terms of the average LC scores in medicine) Leaving Cert who pass exams no problem and excel in the class, and those who got 600 points who are failing or barely passing.

I do think giving 480 as a target is a bit unrealistic, and it could be increased a bit, but its unfair to say anyone getting below 550 can't handle the course.

Darksider

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Well since the majority of universities only give entrance scholarships to the top ~10% combined LC/HPAT scores, you're talking about ridiculing 90% of your class...wherever you are, that sounds ridiculous. For my class, people who got the scholarship were congratulated by everyone else and there was certainly no elitism between those who did and didn't get it.

I know people who had a "below average" (in terms of the average LC scores in medicine) Leaving Cert who pass exams no problem and excel in the class, and those who got 600 points who are failing or barely passing.

I do think giving 480 as a target is a bit unrealistic, and it could be increased a bit, but its unfair to say anyone getting below 550 can't handle the course.

I think the poster may have exaggerated a bit to bolster his own opinion, he seems to have a very negative view of people with 'mediocre' leaving certs (lol) getting into medical college.

Also, there are loads of student who end up getting points as low as the 400s, going off to med school abroad and getting their degree just fine, which sort of weakens this person's point.

nogivingup

Taco Chips wrote: »

dcam wrote: »

You're absolutely right I think it's really wrong to give extra points for HL maths meaning that someone who has worked their ass off and achieved 5 or 6A1's or close to it but who did not do HL maths will not receive the credit that others would have gotten in previous years with the exact same points due to all these people with 625. No subject is more important than another and the sooner the department realise this the better. They are supposedly giving these bonus points to encourage students to study maths at third level but you can use these points to get into any course how does that make any sense?

Honours maths is well documented to be much more difficult however, and far fewer people do well in it than in other subjects. So the case is there to show that it requires much more work across the board for students to succeed in, so wouldn't it just be fair that extra work is rewarded with extra points?

Darksider wrote: »

wow are they really the type of people i'm going to study with in medicine? ridiculing someone for getting below 560 even though they still got admission?

that kind of elitism is absolutely shocking to me, and this is coming from someone who got more than that in the mocks so i'm not really taking it on a personal level or anything.

Agreed. And it's untrue. I'm assuming the OP is referring to TCD since he mentioned the Entrance Exhibition. I go to TCD and I am friends with a lot of people in Med. There was no ridicule of people who weren't at the Entrance Exhibition. In fact, there was little to no mention of LC points at all after the first week. People are too busy coping with the work that the course brings to be caught up in what become trivialities once you start.

Oh because you are so knowledgable because you have friends in Medicine? How would you know if there was mention of LC points or not? Were you there? No. Was I there? Yes.
When I said ridiculed, I meant in a far more good-natured way than all of you are all taking it to mean.

Also, Darksider, you are naive if you are shocked by such elitism.

Also, the later post about people with 400 points studying Medicine abroad: how many of these people do you know personally? I doubt you know any, not many exist. You seem to be ignoring the fact that for each of these students, there are hundreds with 580+ points that study in Irish Universities and get excellent degrees.

Also, in relation to Honours Maths, it doesn't consume that much more time than other subjects. It does not deserve an extra 25 points. Also, I think it's a shame that people with 575+Honours Maths will be claiming to have 600 points, when others with 6 A1s in Options an Languages had to work far harder to receive the same score.

Doc.Hpatgrind

For those of you who are nervous about the cao offers or unhappy with your hpat scores, my message is don't worry. In my first year at it I did the courses and got 156 which is not a great score but okay. I was obviously disappointed and hated the hpat but then I went on into physiotherapy in UCD and had a great year while working on my hpat. I began to notice so many patterns and little sly tricks in them that just repeated and repeated and I took note of all of them. As soon as I began avoiding these traps and recognizing these patterns my scores went miles up and when I repeated the hpat I got in the top percentile and a score of 215. So to all of you who are nervous or unhappy, if you really want to get into this course you can. Just because you failed first time does not mean it's all over. Best of luck

Darksider

nogivingup wrote: »

Oh because you are so knowledgable because you have friends in Medicine? How would you know if there was mention of LC points or not? Were you there? No. Was I there? Yes.
When I said ridiculed, I meant in a far more good-natured way than all of you are all taking it to mean.

Also, Darksider, you are naive if you are shocked by such elitism.

Also, the later post about people with 400 points studying Medicine abroad: how many of these people do you know personally? I doubt you know any, not many exist. You seem to be ignoring the fact that for each of these students, there are hundreds with 580+ points that study in Irish Universities and get excellent degrees.

Also, in relation to Honours Maths, it doesn't consume that much more time than other subjects. It does not deserve an extra 25 points. Also, I think it's a shame that people with 575+Honours Maths will be claiming to have 600 points, when others with 6 A1s in Options an Languages had to work far harder to receive the same score.

Yes I know of 2 people in final year abroad, one in sudan, the other in romania. Both were in the 400s. I also know a guy who went to india to do dentistry who was also in the 400s. He graduated and is currently working on the exams needed to work over here.

Anyways, as long as I get admission I couldn't care less for futile internet arguments. I only need 505 points anyways :L

jumpguy

Darksider wrote: »

wow are they really the type of people i'm going to study with in medicine? ridiculing someone for getting below 560 even though they still got admission?

Not everyone you study with is going to be pleasant (naturally), but I've never come across elitism in terms of points (yet.) At least not in humoured jest between good friends. :P

Taco Chips

nogivingup wrote: »

Oh because you are so knowledgable because you have friends in Medicine? How would you know if there was mention of LC points or not? Were you there? No. Was I there? Yes.
When I said ridiculed, I meant in a far more good-natured way than all of you are all taking it to mean.

.....

Also, in relation to Honours Maths, it doesn't consume that much more time than other subjects. It does not deserve an extra 25 points. Also, I think it's a shame that people with 575+Honours Maths will be claiming to have 600 points, when others with 6 A1s in Options an Languages had to work far harder to receive the same score.

I'm giving an anecdote that contradicts your story. No need to get so touchy and defensive. I don't see why you would want to be in this context anyway.

I suppose the people I know doing med have a bit more cop on than you, since they have better things to do than make jokes about the LC, which is irrelevant in college anyway. Perhaps this is why you don't know them?

nogivingup

Taco Chips wrote: »

I'm giving an anecdote that contradicts your story. No need to get so touchy and defensive. I don't see why you would want to be in this context anyway.

I suppose the people I know doing med have a bit more cop on than you, since they have better things to do than make jokes about the LC, which is irrelevant in college anyway. Perhaps this is why you don't know them?

I think you'll find that I do know them- me being one of the Meds that you have met!
Guys, you're all too highly strung, chill out a bit!
I still maintain that under 550 is a bit of a joke. Like, we have to maintain some standards, right?

MedGirl17

nogivingup wrote: »

Oh because you are so knowledgable because you have friends in Medicine? How would you know if there was mention of LC points or not? Were you there? No. Was I there? Yes.
When I said ridiculed, I meant in a far more good-natured way than all of you are all taking it to mean.

Also, Darksider, you are naive if you are shocked by such elitism.

Also, the later post about people with 400 points studying Medicine abroad: how many of these people do you know personally? I doubt you know any, not many exist. You seem to be ignoring the fact that for each of these students, there are hundreds with 580+ points that study in Irish Universities and get excellent degrees.

Also, in relation to Honours Maths, it doesn't consume that much more time than other subjects. It does not deserve an extra 25 points. Also, I think it's a shame that people with 575+Honours Maths will be claiming to have 600 points, when others with 6 A1s in Options an Languages had to work far harder to receive the same score.

Just about the honours maths comment-I would have been a fairly average student when it came to maths, B's on a very good day but C's normally. I decided to sit Honours for the Leaving because I knew I wouldn't fail and, let's be honest, the more Honours subjects you manage to do the better. I found it did take up a lot more time than my other Honours subjects. If it wasn't for the 25 extra points, I probably just would have dropped to Ordinary level simply to lighten the work load. I think in a case like mine, the 25 extra points is a good idea as it does encourage you to work at maths, especially if your level of maths isn't great. I probably won't even get them as my maths grade won't be one of my top six, but it's still nice to know that if one of my subjects goes really wrong, all that work won't be wasted !

dcam

[/QUOTE]

Patchy~ wrote: »

Well I dunno, if someone can get 6 A1s should they not be able for HL maths? Personally I'm hoping for a C3/D1 in it to offset geography which went badly, but overall I'll probably only end up with a 5-10 net gain in points from it.

On one hand the reality is that maths takes up a lot more time and was my most difficult subject by a million miles, but if you're extremely maths-orientated you won't even need the incentive I guess.

My opinion is that subjects like maths/French should be worth more for courses like engineering/languages, thats how the French system works, and it makes so much more sense - but I guess it has its flaws too, e.g. someone who doesnt get to do applied maths being at a huge disadvantage in competing for their course even if they were able for it.

I don't think it's really a case of being able for it or not though. I think it's forcing a lot of students going for high points courses such as dentistry, veterinary medicine etc. into doing HL so that they're in with a decent shot of getting their course. In my opinion that's wrong if their course has very little maths in it. Also a lot of you are saying that HL maths takes up more time than your other subjects and that it's a lot more difficult but there are also those who find other subjects such as languages very difficult eg. a few people who were in school with me who had dyslexia said that French was by far the most difficult subject for them and that it took up a lot more time than their other subjects, however they won't receive extra points for French. I think a system such as Patchy suggested where extra points are only given if they are relevant to your third level course is the fairest for everyone.

Canard

dcam wrote:

I don't think it's really a case of being able for it or not though. I think it's forcing a lot of students going for high points courses such as dentistry, veterinary medicine etc. into doing HL so that they're in with a decent shot of getting their course. In my opinion that's wrong if their course has very little maths in it. Also a lot of you are saying that HL maths takes up more time than your other subjects and that it's a lot more difficult but there are also those who find other subjects such as languages very difficult eg. a few people who were in school with me who had dyslexia said that French was by far the most difficult subject for them and that it took up a lot more time than their other subjects, however they won't receive extra points for French. I think a system such as Patchy suggested where extra points are only given if they are relevant to your third level course is the fairest for everyone.

Thats true, but those courses already have a huge point requirement. The only alternative though would be to put some kind of cap on that since a B3 = 100 points, anything above that is also only 100 points, which is still unfair.

I know its not only dyslexic people who have trouble with French, but I'd estimate that a lot more people without dyscalculia have trouble with maths and/or just don't see the point in doing HL because it doesnt come naturally to them. Compared to French (or any subject at all) there was a tiny amount doing HL maths. Also, in the same way that you mentioned it's unfair that people have to have HL maths for Dentistry and other mathsless courses, almost everyone needs to pass English, Irish, Maths and a third language, so it's not a huge extra disadvantage anyway. Annoying, but I wouldn't say it's the end of the world, 580+ is a challenge anyway.

dcam

I agree with a lot of what you're saying in my opinion though it isn't inevitable for dentistry to reach 605+ points in the very near future due to the bonus maths points which is a bit absurd as it would make HL maths pretty much an entry requirement for dentistry although not an official one I know.

JDOC1996

Hey everyone,
I'm going into 5th year, and I badly want medicine. I'm just wondering, what are some good materials I can buy to study for the Hpat? I'm going to treat it like an 8th subject. I've also heard that a Hpat is being brought in for dentistry and veterinary, is this true?

dcam

JDOC1996 wrote: »

Hey everyone,
I'm going into 5th year, and I badly want medicine. I'm just wondering, what are some good materials I can buy to study for the Hpat? I'm going to treat it like an 8th subject. I've also heard that a Hpat is being brought in for dentistry and veterinary, is this true?

If you're going into 5th year you still have loads of time to study for the HPAT so don't stress out too much. There are talks of abolishing the HPAT so I wouldn't be in any rush to buy study aids until it's certain that the HPAT will still exist in 2014. However if it is still around by then I would suggest buying the two sample ACER papers as they give you a good idea of the layout, style of question etc. I also did the meden**y package which I found very useful for section three, but to be honest I didn't feel it made that much of a difference to section one and section two on the day maybe that's just me though. Sixth year is loads of time to start a prep course though. Confidence in your own ability and a calm level head on the day of the HPAT play a huge role on the day too, easier said than done I know. As for dentistry and veterinary I've heard rumours about the HPAT being brought in for other science courses as far as I know though no such action has been taken yet.

Darksider

JDOC1996 wrote: »

Hey everyone,
I'm going into 5th year, and I badly want medicine. I'm just wondering, what are some good materials I can buy to study for the Hpat? I'm going to treat it like an 8th subject. I've also heard that a Hpat is being brought in for dentistry and veterinary, is this true?

Here's some tips I gathered from practising for the hpat this year, hope they help :P

Section 1: Never ever base an answer off assumptions. Before you answer a section 1 question, quickly ask yourself 'is this answer beyond the scope of the passage?'. If it is then that's probably the wrong answer.

Section 2: This section is pretty difficult to improve on. All I can advise is that whilst you're practising, make a note of any emotional adjectives you don't understand and learn their meanings. Eg. many people might not know the meaning of words like convivial, derisive, disparaging etc but these can come up in section 2.

Section 3: Work your ass off at this one. If you put the time in you'll be able to get an outstanding result in it. At the beginning it can seem hopeless and you might think 'this just makes no sense to me' but eventually you begin seeing the patterns and they are repeated constantly.

General tips: Just try not to burn yourself out on it. 5th year is actually quite an early time to start so don't work at it so hard that you begin resenting the test. You need to have a very positive attitude whenever you practise for it and even more-so when you actually sit it.

I did med entry too, I didn't actually find the sit in course all that helpful but the online materials are a godsend.

JDOC1996

Thanks guys. Yeah, I was looking through some UMAT questions, sections 1 and 2 are alright, but I thought section 3 just looked almost un-doable haha. Also, how much study were you medheads doing in 5th year? Ye seem like the ones to ask :P