*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2012*

MtHanrahan

JDOC1996 wrote: »

Thanks guys. Yeah, I was looking through some UMAT questions, sections 1 and 2 are alright, but I thought section 3 just looked almost un-doable haha. Also, how much study were you medheads doing in 5th year? Ye seem like the ones to ask :P

I posted some section 3 advice at www.mthanrahan.blogspot.com for a reader in a similar situation as you.

Regarding comments about bonus points for H maths that extra points should reward the extra work, this is not true. The extra points get students to stay in Higher level. The highest achievers don't put in extra work into maths compared to other subjects. If you like and are good at maths then it requires very little work. Extra points for talent = a bias in the system. Anyway people should realize that the extra points were not introduced with medicine in mind.

nogivingup

MtHanrahan wrote: »

JDOC1996 wrote: »

Thanks guys. Yeah, I was looking through some UMAT questions, sections 1 and 2 are alright, but I thought section 3 just looked almost un-doable haha. Also, how much study were you medheads doing in 5th year? Ye seem like the ones to ask :P

I posted some section 3 advice at www.mthanrahan.blogspot.com for a reader in a similar situation as you.

Regarding comments about bonus points for H maths that extra points should reward the extra work, this is not true. The extra points get students to stay in Higher level. The highest achievers don't put in extra work into maths compared to other subjects. If you like and are good at maths then it requires very little work. Extra points for talent = a bias in the system. Anyway people should realize that the extra points were not introduced with medicine in mind.

Very well said! This is only going to reward the top performers further- they will get both the A1 in Maths and the extra points- and punish the average students, as they are unlikely to receive the full 25 points, leaving those better at Maths will a massive lead.

greatshakes

To suggest somebody with less than 550 points will struggle in medicine is pure rubbish. What about the graduate entry route in medicine. Half the medical places in the state will be graduate entry soon. I know two people going down this route after getting far less then 550 points in their leaving cert and both are extremely bright. There is no doubt in my mind they will qualify in four years time on the accelerated degree as top quality doctors. What about the people who have gone to the UK and Eastern Europe for years with far less than 550 and have qualified as doctors!

marienhof

Anyone stressing out about results next wednesday ? cant believe its all gonna be over :O :O

dcam

marienhof wrote: »

Anyone stressing out about results next wednesday ? cant believe its all gonna be over :O :O

I can't stop thinking about it! It's literally on my mind 24/7. Still it will be good to know either way.

CookieMonster.x

Hi everyone,
I am hoping to get into medicine (2013 entry) and was just looking for a few tips.
I know the Irish system pretty well. With regards to the HPAT, I am going to get the M*d*ntry course. How often and for how long should I practice? Any hints/tricks anyone has come across that come in handy?
Now I don't really know the UK system well at all. Initially I was just going to apply to Queen's in Belfast as ultimately I would rather be in Ireland however I have heard that Irish students get free fees in Scotland so I am looking into that now as well as England. I have signed up to sit the UKCAT in October. Does anyone know how similar it is to the HPAT? Would I be ok by just preparing with M*d*ntry or would I need to use other resources? Also what is a good score on the UKCAT? What, roughly, would one need to get to have a chance of getting an interview?
I have ordered several prospectuses so I will be going through them (I know it's a bit late however I am already pretty sure of the colleges I will be applying to).
If anyone could enlighten me that would be great. Any past experiences/hints/extra information would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!

Darksider

CookieMonster.x wrote: »

Hi everyone,
I am hoping to get into medicine (2013 entry) and was just looking for a few tips.
I know the Irish system pretty well. With regards to the HPAT, I am going to get the M*d*ntry course. How often and for how long should I practice? Any hints/tricks anyone has come across that come in handy?
Now I don't really know the UK system well at all. Initially I was just going to apply to Queen's in Belfast as ultimately I would rather be in Ireland however I have heard that Irish students get free fees in Scotland so I am looking into that now as well as England. I have signed up to sit the UKCAT in October. Does anyone know how similar it is to the HPAT? Would I be ok by just preparing with M*d*ntry or would I need to use other resources? Also what is a good score on the UKCAT? What, roughly, would one need to get to have a chance of getting an interview?
I have ordered several prospectuses so I will be going through them (I know it's a bit late however I am already pretty sure of the colleges I will be applying to).
If anyone could enlighten me that would be great. Any past experiences/hints/extra information would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!

You'll want to do some work experience in a medicine related field for inclusion in the personal statement, eg. volunteer in a nursing home. Get working on that ASAP since the medicine application deadline is around mid-October if I'm not mistaken.

For UKCAT scores I think you need something like high 700s or better in all sections. Get practising on that now as well because you'll need that done before the deadline also.

I don't think hpat practise materials would be ideal for ukcat. They're both aptitude tests and some of the subject matter is similar but they differ a lot and you'd be better using materials that are targeted specifically for the ukcat.

marienhof

dcam wrote: »

I can't stop thinking about it! It's literally on my mind 24/7. Still it will be good to know either way.

Yeah thats true just hoping for the best at this stage were u planning on going?:D

hollingr

fewtinsoffroth wrote: »

Independant Academy, I don't know why really. I'd heard so many complaints about the madentry from people who had paid such an insane amount of money and scored like 80, but considering the amount of people who probably sit that one you'll get people who are going to score poorly regardless.

I think getting the results early will be encouraging to study for the last 5 weeks regardless if the score is good or bad :pac:

I think with med entree you get out of it what you put in. A lot of people just assume because they've forked out a couple hundred euros and done a few prep exams that they're suddenly going to get 200+, since everyone says it's the best and you improve so much with it. You don't get anything out of it without some hard graft.

The other thing with it is it's up to you to time keep, and if you aren't strict on yourself you will get inflated grades and won't have your rhythm right for the actual exam.

I don't think practise for section 2 does much of anything, but Section 1 and 3 has techniques and "problem types" that you can prepare for.

You should put far more effort into analysing the questions you got wrong, and how you could do them faster/better in the future, than on just skimming through the tests and fretting/gloating over your percentile scores.

Darksider

hollingr wrote: »

I think with med entree you get out of it what you put in. A lot of people just assume because they've forked out a couple hundred euros and done a few prep exams that they're suddenly going to get 200+, since everyone says it's the best and you improve so much with it. You don't get anything out of it without some hard graft.

The other thing with it is it's up to you to time keep, and if you aren't strict on yourself you will get inflated grades and won't have your rhythm right for the actual exam.

I don't think practise for section 2 does much of anything, but Section 1 and 3 has techniques and "problem types" that you can prepare for.

You should put far more effort into analysing the questions you got wrong, and how you could do them faster/better in the future, than on just skimming through the tests and fretting/gloating over your percentile scores.

One thing for anyone who does the course - don't be disheartened by any percentiles online or estimated results from the sit in course. I was very let down when I got an email from them a few weeks after the course saying 'actual test percentile: x, estimated hpat percentile: y' because the result wasn't great but I ended up doing better than what they estimated. If a dunce like me can do it, so can you!

tweetybird4848

Darksider wrote: »

nogivingup wrote: »

Oh because you are so knowledgable because you have friends in Medicine? How would you know if there was mention of LC points or not? Were you there? No. Was I there? Yes.
When I said ridiculed, I meant in a far more good-natured way than all of you are all taking it to mean.

Also, Darksider, you are naive if you are shocked by such elitism.

Also, the later post about people with 400 points studying Medicine abroad: how many of these people do you know personally? I doubt you know any, not many exist. You seem to be ignoring the fact that for each of these students, there are hundreds with 580+ points that study in Irish Universities and get excellent degrees.

Also, in relation to Honours Maths, it doesn't consume that much more time than other subjects. It does not deserve an extra 25 points. Also, I think it's a shame that people with 575+Honours Maths will be claiming to have 600 points, when others with 6 A1s in Options an Languages had to work far harder to receive the same score.

Yes I know of 2 people in final year abroad, one in sudan, the other in romania. Both were in the 400s. I also know a guy who went to india to do dentistry who was also in the 400s. He graduated and is currently working on the exams needed to work over here.

Anyways, as long as I get admission I couldn't care less for futile internet arguments. I only need 505 points anyways :L

Darksider as a matter of interest what combined hpat and points are you aiming for? Also nogiving up, I found your remarks petty and ridculious. The leaving cert is more a measure of memory then anything else and it is simply untrue to say that anyone with points lower then 550 would be unable for medicine.

Mad Shark

tweetybird4848 wrote: »

Darksider as a matter of interest what combined hpat and points are you aiming for? Also nogiving up, I found your remarks petty and ridculious. The leaving cert is more a measure of memory then anything else and it is simply untrue to say that anyone with points lower then 550 would be unable for medicine.

Well said

dcam

marienhof wrote: »

Yeah thats true just hoping for the best at this stage were u planning on going?:D

I'll take med anywhere I can get it have all 5 down on the CAO. What about you?

nogivingup

tweetybird4848 wrote: »

Darksider as a matter of interest what combined hpat and points are you aiming for? Also nogiving up, I found your remarks petty and ridculious. The leaving cert is more a measure of memory then anything else and it is simply untrue to say that anyone with points lower then 550 would be unable for medicine.

Guys, you'd swear I suggested that no-one without 600 points got in. 550 isn't a great Leaving Cert, it's not that hard to achieve. I don't see what excuse anyone who thinks they're capable of Medicine has to not get 550. Illness during the year- sure. But simply not doing enough work? If they can't do enough work to get 550 they won't do enough work to be good doctors. A good Leaving Cert requires far more than a good memory- one must be intelligent, determined and diligent, all characteristics required of Med students, surely?

QueenOfLeon

nogivingup wrote: »

Guys, you'd swear I suggested that no-one without 600 points got in. 550 isn't a great Leaving Cert, it's not that hard to achieve. I don't see what excuse anyone who thinks they're capable of Medicine has to not get 550. Illness during the year- sure. But simply not doing enough work? If they can't do enough work to get 550 they won't do enough work to be good doctors. A good Leaving Cert requires far more than a good memory- one must be intelligent, determined and diligent, all characteristics required of Med students, surely?

I'm sorry but almost every statement you've made here is ridiculous imo...

nogivingup

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

I'm sorry but almost every statement you've made here is ridiculous imo...

Tell me, what's ridiculous about the last comment, oh wise one?

Canard

The thing jumping out at me personally is that the people who set the requirements for Medicine felt that 480 was fine, yet you're out bashing people who got 70 points over it as being average...

QueenOfLeon

nogivingup wrote: »

Tell me, what's ridiculous about the last comment, oh wise one?

Ok...

nogivingup wrote: »

550 isn't a great Leaving Cert, it's not that hard to achieve.

Its basically straight A's, in a wide range of subjects. Only a low percentage of people in the country achieve this or above. It is obviously hard to achieve, or else everyone would be getting it.

nogivingup wrote: »

I don't see what excuse anyone who thinks they're capable of Medicine has to not get 550.

Plenty of things. You could be excellent at everything medical related, but up to half of your LC subjects are languages. You don't need to be fluent in French to be a doctor, but not being good at languages will set you back in getting >550, as 3 are compulsory for almost all colleges.

It also might be easier to achieve >550 if you have plenty of money for grinds, books etc. Someone brought up the point a while ago (in the HEAR thread, I think) that people from disadvantaged areas might have less time to study due to having to get a part time job, helping more around the house, than people from more well off backgrounds who may not have to worry about that sort of thing.

nogivingup wrote: »

If they can't do enough work to get 550 they won't do enough work to be good doctors.

People are generally much more motivated to work at subjects they enjoy, like those they would encounter in medicine. Just because someone doesn't do well in some Leaving Cert subjects doesn't mean they aren't capable of working at something else.

On a more personal note, I could point out people in my class who got below 550 in the LC and who have not done badly in exam since. Then there are others who got up to 600 who are repeating exams in August with some having to repeat the year.

nogivingup wrote: »

A good Leaving Cert requires far more than a good memory- one must be intelligent, determined and diligent, all characteristics required of Med students, surely?

Yes, but on a much higher scale for medicine. Everyone has to up their game, whether you got 500 or 600, and everyone getting results like that in the LC is capable of doing the work for medicine. Your LC results are not relevant, its the work you put in in the course that matters.

KoolAidRelic

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Plenty of things. You could be excellent at everything medical related, but up to half of your LC subjects are languages. You don't need to be fluent in French to be a doctor, but not being good at languages will set you back in getting >550, as 3 are compulsory for almost all colleges.

Seeing as you only need a HC3 in the languages, it's kind of irrelevant. A student who's weak at languages and chooses to count half of them for their points deserves the consequences.

QueenOfLeon

KoolAidRelic wrote: »

Seeing as you only need a HC3 in the languages, it's kind of irrelevant. A student who's weak at languages and chooses to count half of them for their points deserves the consequences.

If you don't want to count any of them, you'd then have to do 9 honour subjects in total, which would be a bit excessive.

nogivingup

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Ok...



Its basically straight A's, in a wide range of subjects. Only a low percentage of people in the country achieve this or above. It is obviously hard to achieve, or else everyone would be getting it.


Plenty of things. You could be excellent at everything medical related, but up to half of your LC subjects are languages. You don't need to be fluent in French to be a doctor, but not being good at languages will set you back in getting >550, as 3 are compulsory for almost all colleges.

It also might be easier to achieve >550 if you have plenty of money for grinds, books etc. Someone brought up the point a while ago (in the HEAR thread, I think) that people from disadvantaged areas might have less time to study due to having to get a part time job, helping more around the house, than people from more well off backgrounds who may not have to worry about that sort of thing.



People are generally much more motivated to work at subjects they enjoy, like those they would encounter in medicine. Just because someone doesn't do well in some Leaving Cert subjects doesn't mean they aren't capable of working at something else.

On a more personal note, I could point out people in my class who got below 550 in the LC and who have not done badly in exam since. Then there are others who got up to 600 who are repeating exams in August with some having to repeat the year.



Yes, but on a much higher scale for medicine. Everyone has to up their game, whether you got 500 or 600, and everyone getting results like that in the LC is capable of doing the work for medicine. Your LC results are not relevant, its the work you put in in the course that matters.

Realistically, not everyone in the country is attempting to get Medicine/ other high-point courses, therefore not everyone is going to be working hard enough to get Medicine-worthy points.
Personally, I see no issue with the previous system, it was far fairer to simply to be based upon one standardised exam- the Leaving Cert. But now that we have the HPAT, I think that they should retain standards.
I think that 550 is quite a reasonable score, all you need is one A1 and 5 A2s, which is not a huge demand. 500 can be achieved with no As- hardly demanding at all. That can be achieved with little work.
With regard to motivation in subjects they don't like- it is not as if they're going to love every aspect of Medicine, they're still going to have to study subjects that they don't really like. Your suggestion that this is a reasonable excuse not to work is just ridiculous.

QueenOfLeon

nogivingup wrote: »

With regard to motivation in subjects they don't like- it is not as if they're going to love every aspect of Medicine, they're still going to have to study subjects that they don't really like. Your suggestion that this is a reasonable excuse not to work is just ridiculous.

I didn't say not liking a subject is an "excuse" not to work. Some people don't have an aptitude for languages, and even getting a good result like a B will let them down a bit. It doesn't mean they're not capable of doing well at subjects in medicine, which is what you're suggesting.

nogivingup

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

Ok...
People are generally much more motivated to work at subjects they enjoy, like those they would encounter in medicine. Just because someone doesn't do well in some Leaving Cert subjects doesn't mean they aren't capable of working at something else.

See, from what I can gather, what you're saying is that people aren't as motivated to work for the Leaving Cert because they don't like the subject matter and will be motivated in Medicine because they will like the subject matter?
So you are saying that they'll work harder and do better if they like the subject matter, whereas they will not work as hard and not do as well if they do not like the subject matter.
Justifying not working.

KoolAidRelic

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

If you don't want to count any of them, you'd then have to do 9 honour subjects in total, which would be a bit excessive.

So then count just one, and do 8. A very common number, especially if you include dropping to pass Irish.

nogivingup

KoolAidRelic wrote: »

So then count just one, and do 8. A very common number, especially if you include dropping to pass Irish.

Ya, and surely even one lacking a natural ability in languages can manage an A2, which is all they would need to get 550.

QueenOfLeon

nogivingup wrote: »

See, from what I can gather, what you're saying is that people aren't as motivated to work for the Leaving Cert because they don't like the subject matter and will be motivated in Medicine because they will like the subject matter?
So you are saying that they'll work harder and do better if they like the subject matter, whereas they will not work as hard and not do as well if they do not like the subject matter.
Justifying not working.

Maybe you should read that statement in the context it was posted - in response to this statement by you:

nogivingup wrote: »

If they can't do enough work to get 550 they won't do enough work to be good doctors

You're saying if someone can't work enough to get 550, they can't work enough to be doctors.

I'm saying that even if someone can't or doesn't work enough to get 550, they can still work enough to be doctors.

No need to complicate it any further than that. I'm not going to argue the reasons as to why people might not get 550 in the Leaving Cert, I'm saying you can't suggest that anyone not getting 550 can't do well in medicine.

_LilyRose_

Sorry that this is a bit irrelevant to the current conversation! Is it true that when adding up HPAT and LC, even if you get over 560 your points are stopped(for want of a better word) and each 5 points extra you got count as 1 point. This is then added in with your HPAT score? So if you got 600 points plus a HPAT score of 180, you get 568+180=748 points?

Is this not a complete slap in the face to anyone who manages to get such extraordinarily high points??

dcam

KoolAidRelic wrote: »

Seeing as you only need a HC3 in the languages, it's kind of irrelevant.

Would just like to point out that you don't need a HC3 in the languages you can do English, Irish and your third language all at ordinary level if you wish and I'm pretty sure you only need a D3 in the three of them. QueenOfLeon is correct nine LC subjects is still a major undertaking even if three of them are at ordinary level and if the student is weak at languages it will set them back even more.

nogivingup

dcam wrote: »

Would just like to point out that you don't need a HC3 in the languages you can do English, Irish and your third language all at ordinary level if you wish and I'm pretty sure you only need a D3 in the three of them. QueenOfLeon is correct nine LC subjects is still a major undertaking even if three of them are at ordinary level and if the student is weak at languages it will set them back even more.

Because a D3 in a language is so difficult to achieve?

QueenOfLeon

_LilyRose_ wrote: »

Sorry that this is a bit irrelevant to the current conversation! Is it true that when adding up HPAT and LC, even if you get over 560 your points are stopped(for want of a better word) and each 5 points extra you got count as 1 point. This is then added in with your HPAT score? So if you got 600 points plus a HPAT score of 180, you get 568+180=748 points?

Is this not a complete slap in the face to anyone who manages to get such extraordinarily high points??

Its from 550 upwards, so the max you could get before this year and the bonus points was 560 from the LC, now its 565.

The idea is to take the pressure off students to get 580-600 which would have been needed in the older system.