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*Everything HPAT and Medicine 2012*

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    #2492
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    _LilyRose_ wrote: »
    Sorry that this is a bit irrelevant to the current conversation! Is it true that when adding up HPAT and LC, even if you get over 560 your points are stopped(for want of a better word) and each 5 points extra you got count as 1 point. This is then added in with your HPAT score? So if you got 600 points plus a HPAT score of 180, you get 568+180=748 points?

    Is this not a complete slap in the face to anyone who manages to get such extraordinarily high points??

    It's actually after 550! So 600 points is 560 (the extra 50 point count for 10, so 550+10=560) It is really unfair on those of us that work really hard to obtain such points but it's supposed to level the playing field for those that don't work as hard.
    So 600 points+ HPAT 180
    560+180= 740


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    #2493
    Canard
    Registered Users Posts: 8,572 ✭✭✭Canard


    Yeah, because someone getting 550 is a slacker. Your posts reek of arrogance, I can't even take them seriously.


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    #2494
    dcam
    Registered Users Posts: 88 ✭✭dcam


    nogivingup wrote: »
    Because a D3 in a language is so difficult to achieve?

    I never said it was extremely difficult to achieve but a student who struggles with languages would still have to put in a certain amount of study every day just to pass and this takes away from their points subjects. And even having to sit nine subjects when June comes around would be very draining and don't forget that English and Irish both have two exams very time consuming at exam time when you're not even counting them.


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    #2495
    Darksider
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Darksider


    tweetybird4848 wrote: »
    Darksider as a matter of interest what combined hpat and points are you aiming for? Also nogiving up, I found your remarks petty and ridculious. The leaving cert is more a measure of memory then anything else and it is simply untrue to say that anyone with points lower then 550 would be unable for medicine.

    Well I'm hoping for 749 so I can get into dublin, but if I get 739 or more I will be perfectly happy even if I don't get my first choice.
    nogivingup wrote: »
    It's actually after 550! So 600 points is 560 (the extra 50 point count for 10, so 550+10=560) It is really unfair on those of us that work really hard to obtain such points but it's supposed to level the playing field for those that don't work as hard.
    So 600 points+ HPAT 180
    560+180= 740

    Judging by your posts, you think medicine candidates should:
    a) take up extra subjects so they can exclude ones they are weak at.
    b) be able to manage at least an A2 in a subject with mere hard work.

    Well if this is the case, why don't they put this simple hard work into the HPAT? It's an aptitude test designed to gauge your ability as a healthcare professional. Shouldn't someone who is 'capable of medicine' (getting over 550 by your definition apparently) also be able to get the HPAT score necessary for admission? I mean, surely even one lacking a natural ability in HPAT can manage an 85th percentile, which is all they would need to get in with 550.


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    #2496
    finality
    Registered Users Posts: 1,763 ✭✭✭finality


    Many people are passionate about medicine. When you're passionate about something it's a lot easier to work at it and to do well in it than if you're not.

    What if someone got 3 A1s in the three sciences and then 3 B2s in German, English and Irish. That would give them 540. Are they unable for medicine because they had no interest in the languages and opted to put more work into science?

    What about if someone got 6 A2s, getting 89% in each subject. 540. Obviously that's extremely unlikely, but I'm just trying to point out scenarios in which extremely intelligent and hardworking students might get under 550.

    The bottom line is that to succeed in medicine, you DON'T need to excel in such a wide range of subjects as the leaving cert requires.

    I think the main thing missing from your argument, nogivingup, is evidence showing that people who've gotten into medicine with under 550 LC points are not capable of succeeding in the course, or that they are consistently and significantly less likely to succeed than someone with over 550.


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    #2497
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Ask any doctor over 40 years of age how he/she did in the LC.
    You might be surprised at the results they "achieved" ;)
    The equivalent of 550 would be at the upper end I would imagine.
    And they still turned out to be excellent doctors...how come?? ;)


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    #2498
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    Darksider wrote: »
    Judging by your posts, you think medicine candidates should:
    a) take up extra subjects so they can exclude ones they are weak at.
    b) be able to manage at least an A2 in a subject with mere hard work.

    Well if this is the case, why don't they put this simple hard work into the HPAT? It's an aptitude test designed to gauge your ability as a healthcare professional. Shouldn't someone who is 'capable of medicine' (getting over 550 by your definition apparently) also be able to get the HPAT score necessary for admission? I mean, surely even one lacking a natural ability in HPAT can manage an 85th percentile, which is all they would need to get in with 550.

    1. The HPAT is an aptitude test, scores shouldn't differ with preparation. Obviously they do, and this is a flaw, but your post is just wrong on that count.
    2. The Leaving Cert gauges your knowledge and ability- those that work hard do well, those that don't work hard don't do well.

    You all seem to be missing the point- determination gets you high points, intelligence gets you high points, diligence gets you high points and, yes, a good memory gets you good points. You can hardly argue that these are things that a doctor doesn't need?


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    #2499
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    eyescreamcone wrote: »
    Ask any doctor over 40 years of age how he/she did in the LC.
    You might be surprised at the results they "achieved" ;)
    The equivalent of 550 would be at the upper end I would imagine.
    And they still turned out to be excellent doctors...how come?? ;)

    You, thankfully, are speaking logically. You are forgetting, however, that the standards in the Leaving Cert are slipping and that top grades were FAR more difficult to achieve in the past when compared to recent years.


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    #2500
    Leinsterr
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 401 ✭✭Leinsterr


    I've read a sample UMAT test and it seems all right (apart from Section 3!!!). Are most people who take the HPAT doing honours English??? Just wondering does honours English help at all in the comprehensions. CHeers


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    #2501
    Darksider
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Darksider


    nogivingup wrote: »
    Darksider wrote: »
    Judging by your posts, you think medicine candidates should:
    a) take up extra subjects so they can exclude ones they are weak at.
    b) be able to manage at least an A2 in a subject with mere hard work.

    Well if this is the case, why don't they put this simple hard work into the HPAT? It's an aptitude test designed to gauge your ability as a healthcare professional. Shouldn't someone who is 'capable of medicine' (getting over 550 by your definition apparently) also be able to get the HPAT score necessary for admission? I mean, surely even one lacking a natural ability in HPAT can manage an 85th percentile, which is all they would need to get in with 550.

    1. The HPAT is an aptitude test, scores shouldn't differ with preparation. Obviously they do, and this is a flaw, but your post is just wrong on that count.
    2. The Leaving Cert gauges your knowledge and ability- those that work hard do well, those that don't work hard don't do well.

    You all seem to be missing the point- determination gets you high points, intelligence gets you high points, diligence gets you high points and, yes, a good memory gets you good points. You can hardly argue that these are things that a doctor doesn't need?

    You get better at section 1 by learning to think critically. You get better at section 2 by learning to understand people's emotions better. The skills learned for section 3, I will admit, are totally worthless.


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    #2502
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    Leinsterr wrote: »
    I've read a sample UMAT test and it seems all right (apart from Section 3!!!). Are most people who take the HPAT doing honours English??? Just wondering does honours English help at all in the comprehensions. CHeers
    Having a good vocabulary is a massive benefit! If you're not particularly good at English learn the definitions of all the words presented as possible answers in Section 2 and you should do well! :)


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    #2503
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    Darksider wrote: »

    You get better at section 1 by learning to think critically. You get better at section 2 by learning to understand people's emotions better. The skills learned for section 3, I will admit, are totally worthless.

    Critical thinking and understanding emotions are inherent skills- if you don't possess them you can only develop them to a certain extent.
    No matter how hard people work they won't simply acquire these skills- you either have them or you don't.


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    #2504
    Darksider
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Darksider


    nogivingup wrote: »
    Critical thinking and understanding emotions are inherent skills- if you don't possess them you can only develop them to a certain extent.
    No matter how hard people work they won't simply acquire these skills- you either have them or you don't.

    If that's the case then someone who gets a higher score through preparation did in fact have those skills from the beginning and they just needed to learn to apply them to the HPAT. Don't you think those are essential skills for a doctor? What's the good of someone with 600 points if they can't think critically/logically or understand their patients?


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    #2505
    DoctorMedicine
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭DoctorMedicine


    nogivingup wrote: »
    Critical thinking and understanding emotions are inherent skills- if you don't possess them you can only develop them to a certain extent.
    No matter how hard people work they won't simply acquire these skills- you either have them or you don't.

    That is simply incorrect. You can train your brain over time to become more logical and also, as a person, to become more empathetic. These two skills can only be improved to a certain degree.

    If you want proof, I am your proof. I improved in all sections, including 1 and 2-an accomplishment which could never have been achieved without training my brain on a daily basis and being more aware of the emotions of others around me. It required work and effort, but in the end, my results improved greatly in those 2 sections.


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    #2506
    Darksider
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Darksider


    DoctorMedicine wrote: »
    That is simply incorrect. You can train your brain over time to become more logical and also, as a person, to become more empathetic. These two skills can only be improved to a certain degree.

    If you want proof, I am your proof. I improved in all sections, including 1 and 2-an accomplishment which could never have been achieved without training my brain on a daily basis and being more aware of the emotions of others around me. It required work and effort, but in the end, my results improved greatly in those 2 sections.

    Same here, I went up by over 8 points in both of these sections, and I honestly feel like I improved actual real world skills rather than just specific techniques for an aptitude test.


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    #2507
    DoctorMedicine
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭DoctorMedicine


    Darksider wrote: »
    If that's the case then someone who gets a higher score through preparation did in fact have those skills from the beginning and they just needed to learn to apply them to the HPAT. Don't you think those are essential skills for a doctor? What's the good of someone with 600 points if they can't think critically/logically or understand their patients?

    Darksider, both you and I(as well as the majority of others) know the point you made above is correct. This user has made sweeping, biased and generally offensive posts over the past few days. While I agree with his opinion that the HPAT is flawed and many people fall victim to these flaws, as well as his belief that you need to have an excellent L.C. to carry on to do Medicine, his assertion that anything under 550 is a poor result is inaccurate and thoughtless. I do agree that the cut-off for Medicine should be about 530 though because 480 is absolutely ridiculous


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    #2508
    DoctorMedicine
    Registered Users Posts: 74 ✭✭DoctorMedicine


    Darksider wrote: »
    Same here, I went up by over 8 points in both of these sections, and I honestly feel like I improved actual real world skills rather than just specific techniques for an aptitude test.

    Well done! I see you are a fellow repeat:) I agree 100%. I am much more conscious of the feelings of others, how best to react to those as well as looking at informations in a much more critical, logical and systematic way-it's like we've trained for a marathon and our brains are nice and fit:p


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    #2509
    Darksider
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Darksider


    DoctorMedicine wrote: »
    Well done! I see you are a fellow repeat:) I agree 100%. I am much more conscious of the feelings of others, how best to react to those as well as looking at informations in a much more critical, logical and systematic way-it's like we've trained for a marathon and our brains are nice and fit:p

    That's probably why I'm being such a big advocate of the hpat, IMO the work you put into it actually makes an impact on your mind beyond the actual exam, much more than many leaving cert subjects would. 480 is low as a minimum but that was never a problem before the 25 extra maths points. Someone with a 99th percentile hpat score would still need around 515/520 to get admission in NUIG.

    The system never really had a chance to adapt to these bonus points. They make the hpat much more important this year regardless of how much the points rise, which is why I think they just need to raise the ceiling from 565 to 575, to even it out once again.


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    #2510
    Pugzilla
    Site Banned Posts: 1,765 ✭✭✭Pugzilla


    nogivingup wrote: »
    I am a Med student and I can honestly say that the ratio of males to females in my class is 50:50. The HPAT has succeeded in ensuring that there is a balance, in the top bracket at least.

    No, it hasn't. About 70% students in my medical shool are female. The HPAT only addressed the gender imbalance for one year. After that the change was reversed.

    Where the hell have you been? It's called the feminsation of medicine and it's not a uniquely Irish phenomenon. The same thing is happening in UK and most other first world countries. (Most consultants in the UK are female for example.) It's not about opinion, it's a simple fact that goes for every undergraduate medical course in the country.

    Why do you think the demand among Irish graduates for specialities like surgery have hit a low? The RCSI was only able to fill 1 third of places on the BST last year. Most graduating doctors are now women and are less likely than men to go into areas of medicine that demand longer hours, more training time and technical skills. They prefer patient focused fields like general practice and paediatrics.

    Medicine—a woman’s world?

    http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/view-article.html?id=20006082


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    #2511
    QueenOfLeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭QueenOfLeon


    nogivingup wrote: »
    You all seem to be missing the point- determination gets you high points, intelligence gets you high points, diligence gets you high points and, yes, a good memory gets you good points. You can hardly argue that these are things that a doctor doesn't need?

    I haven't seen anyone argue that you don't need determination/intelligence/diligence/memory to study medicine. I'm saying you can have all those qualities and do very well in medicine, without having gotten over 550 in the LC. Its currently happening in the course so you don't really have an argument tbh...


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    #2512
    Mad Shark
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭Mad Shark


    nogivingup wrote: »
    1. The HPAT is an aptitude test, scores shouldn't differ with preparation. Obviously they do, and this is a flaw, but your post is just wrong on that count.
    2. The Leaving Cert gauges your knowledge and ability- those that work hard do well, those that don't work hard don't do well.

    You all seem to be missing the point- determination gets you high points, intelligence gets you high points, diligence gets you high points and, yes, a good memory gets you good points. You can hardly argue that these are things that a doctor doesn't need?


    You could be an absolute NERD and get 600 points and then have absolutely awful bedside manner / personality / tact etc which is what the Hpat attempts to bring to the table also...


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    #2513
    CookieMonster.x
    Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭CookieMonster.x


    Thanks for the reply about the HPAT and UKCAT, I really appreciate it! Luckily I have two different work experiences in the medical field so I should be ok for that. Thanks again!

    In response to nogivingup: I have read your posts and while I am not usually one to get involvede, I really feel compelled to respond. Your comments really baffle me. I just cannot comprehend how one could have such a stupid and silly outlook and be one of our future doctors. I am not a mean person, but I would hate for you to be my doctor. To say that someone does not have the aptitude for medicine because they got a 'mediocre' Leaving Cert. ie. less than 550 points is just absurd. The Leaving Cert is a memory test and nothing else.


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    #2514
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    CookieMonster.x wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply about the HPAT and UKCAT, I really appreciate it! Luckily I have two different work experiences in the medical field so I should be ok for that. Thanks again!

    In response to nogivingup: I have read your posts and while I am not usually one, I really feel compelled to respond. Your comments really baffle me. I just cannot comprehend how one could have such a stupid and silly outlook (and arrogant) and be one of our future doctors. I am not a mean person, but I would hate for you to be my, or any of my family's, doctor. To say that someone does not have the aptitude for medicine because they got a 'mediocre' Leaving Cert. ie. less than 550 points is just absurd. The Leaving Cert is a memory test and nothing else and many gifted students do not succeed because of this. I really really do not understand your so called logic..

    Based on that post, I hope you're not depending on your A in English, anyway.


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    #2515
    QueenOfLeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,109 ✭✭✭QueenOfLeon


    nogivingup wrote: »
    Based on that post, I hope you're not depending on your A in English, anyway.

    No need for remarks like that, thanks.


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    #2516
    Darksider
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Darksider


    nogivingup wrote: »
    Based on that post, I hope you're not depending on your A in English, anyway.

    So is this the part where your argument breaks down and you start flinging needless insults?


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    #2517
    jumpguy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭jumpguy


    @ Nogivingup: This whole argument boils down to you having a massive chip on your shoulder that people outperformed you in the HPAT and got into medicine with a lesser LC. You don't give a damn whether they'll make good doctors or not. You're making a show of yourself and just being self-defeating - you obviously performed well in your LC, but your attitude really just reinforces all the negative stereotypes that people are accruing about doctors. You don't give a damn about caring, just your own ego.


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    #2518
    nogivingup
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭nogivingup


    Darksider wrote: »
    brb removing trinity from my cao...

    dammit the change of mind is closed :(

    Don't worry- I don't think you have to worry about getting Trinity anyways. ;)


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    #2519
    Darksider
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭Darksider


    nogivingup wrote: »
    Don't worry- I don't think you have to worry about getting Trinity anyways. ;)

    Will quote this in a week. You are a credit to Trinity, and to think I disregarded the people who told me it bred pompous elitists.


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    #2520
    Canard
    Registered Users Posts: 8,572 ✭✭✭Canard


    It must be people like nogivingup who experience the "no friends or social life, all study" side of Trinity. :pac:


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    #2521
    randylonghorn
    Registered Users Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    nogivingup wrote: »
    You all seem to be missing the point- determination gets you high points, intelligence gets you high points, diligence gets you high points and, yes, a good memory gets you good points. You can hardly argue that these are things that a doctor doesn't need?
    Yes, a doctor needs all of those ... and much much more. High on the list would be the whole area of interpersonal / intrapersonal skills; what Howard Gardner and those who have followed up on his work would probably call emotional intelligence.

    House is good as a TV programme, but he is FAR from an exemplar of what makes a good doctor ... or one who will survive in the profession without cracking up for that matter.
    nogivingup wrote: »
    Based on that post, I hope you're not depending on your A in English, anyway.
    Ok ... speaking now as a Mod: this forum or Boards generally does not tolerate grammar-nazism. So cut it out.
    nogivingup wrote: »
    If you care so much about patients, why didn't you avail of a better education by going to the better university, Trinity, instead of the worst Medical school in the country, NUIG?
    Wow! I'm sure the numerous consultants in Ireland and abroad who started their training in UCG / NUIG would be very interested in your opinion.
    nogivingup wrote: »
    Don't worry- I don't think you have to worry about getting Trinity anyways. ;)

    Right, enough!

    Your attitude may sit well with a few select Trinners peers, but it doesn't sit well with this forum or with me.

    Actually, I know Trinity well enough to know that it wouldn't sit well with most of the students or staff there either.

    So either mend it or find somewhere else to post.


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