Stallions

tatoo

Order of St George to Castlehyde, and .......Wings of Eagles, back from France , to the Beeches.
Both 6 1/2k.

tryfix

tatoo wrote: »

Order of St George to Castlehyde, and .......Wings of Eagles, back from France , to the Beeches.
Both 6 1/2k.

Yet another kick in the teeth for the reputation of the Epsom Derby. Wings Of Eagles relegated to the NH sphere before his first foals have even been born and he was a beautiful yealing who made a few hundred thousand at the sales so it's not like he was a mongrel unworthy of touching decent mares.


That follows the blue blooded Epsom winner Ruler Of The World being set an opening stud fee of €8,000 with his legendary half brother and multiple Gp1 winner producing sire Duke Of Marmalade having since being banished from Coolmore for the crime of producing high quality stayers.

It's a fascinating aspect to the current state of market in these parts that an Epsom Derby becoming a NH sire at €6,500 a pop is likely to have a long and very lucrative career while the same horse would likely find himself struggling to fill a book of flat mares at the same price .


"Federico Tesio famously said that ‘the thoroughbred exists because its selection has depended, not on experts, technicians, or zoologists, but on a piece of wood: the winning post of the Epsom Derby."


At the moment if it wasn't for Galileo that saying would ring quite hollow.

tatoo

I think a major part of the problem for Wings of Eagles as a flat prospect, was that his sire Pour Moi, had been relegated to the National Hunt covering sheds a few months before W of E won his Derby. It would have been difficult to promote an Epsom Derby winner at an appropriate flat fee, when his dad is covering jumpers down the road at a fraction of that fee.
They wouldn't have been in that position only for Fame and Glory's premature death ( prompting PMs move ), or if they had given a better backing to Pour Moi themselves.

Robson99

tatoo wrote: »

Order of St George to Castlehyde, and .......Wings of Eagles, back from France , to the Beeches.
Both 6 1/2k.

Which is the better value???

tatoo

I think a young Derby winner with a very nice pedigree for National Hunt is very appealing, I'm certainly going to go and see him.

tatoo

tatoo wrote: »

I think a young Derby winner with a very nice pedigree for National Hunt is very appealing, I'm certainly going to go and see him.

I was interested in Order of St George but I will certainly be going for a look at Wings of Eagles now too.

tryfix

Mastercraftsman had another Gp1 winner today, this time it was the 4yo gelding Danzdanzdance who was completing a December Gp1 double in New Zealand after taking his first Gp1 on the 8th December. I'm sure the form doesn't add up to a whole lot but Mastercraftsman himself at €30,000 must be the most underpriced stallion who's already a guaranteed source of high quality Gp1 winners.


The mighty Treve is on for a date with Sea The Stars which is an interesting pedigree match. There'd be a fear that a daughter of Motivator ( Montjeu ) would need a sharper stallion influence than Sea The Stars to avoid producing an out and out stayer from the mating of two Arc Winners, but Sea The Stars has already sped up some very stoutly bred mares such as Ezima to produce the Oaks winner Taghrooda.

The match also works by mimicking Galileo's breeding to a fair extent with the Sadler's Wells line Treve being crossed again with the Urban Sea line of Sea The Stars. Both Treve and Sea The Stars won over 1 mile so that's a hopeful sign that there may be some 8-10f talent as well as 12f staying power in the produce of this match.


Treve already had a Dubawi foal which will be a 2yo in 2019 and she visited the sprinter Shaala for her last mating.

tryfix

No matter how good of a racehorse you were it ain't easy when you're considered to be an unfashionable stallion.

Canford Cliffs sold to South Africa where he joined the also banished Duke Of Marmalade. Incidentally the multiple Gp1 winner and teak tough Juddmonte owned Twice Over was also banished to South Africa without ever getting to stand in the Northern Hemisphere. Twice Over is now a great success there. Rip Van Winkle seems to have been banished to New-Zealand which considering his results is fair enough in my book.

Coolmore have spent countless millions trying to ensure the Scat Daddy sire line continues but they let Daddy Long Legs one of their earliest talented Scat Daddy's slip away to study in Chile where he's been such a sire sensation that he's been snapped up back up to the USA by Taylor Made Farm

I suppose it can't be helped when you've got a stallion producing conveyor belt such as Coolmore have. Something has to give when you're drowning in stallion prospects. Old Henrythenavigator had a good run at Coolmore with some early success at the highest level but it's no great loss that they moved him on, it is however a bit of a shock to see him gone to Russia.

Henrythenavigator's first crop Gp1 Phoenix stakes winner Pedro The Great appears to be dragging himself up the food chain after starting life off in France at a fee of €3,000 for his first 3 years at stud which rose to €6,000 in 2018 and has been raised again to €10,000 in 2019 after the exploits of his Grade 1 winning daughter Fatale Bere in the US. Pedro The Great's rise is not all that surprising when you take it into consideration that he's a juvenile Gp1 winning half-brother to Coolmore's 2,000 Guineas winner Footstepsinthesand who has a very long and quietly successful stallion career at Coolmore.



Who should perhaps be up for the chop at Coolmore or elsewhere?

tryfix

While the old man Galileo keeps on keeping on, one of his first group 1 winning sons Red Rocks passed away at the age of 15. A moderately successful sire in the Americas.

While reading up about Red Rocks adventures in South America I started to think about one of Galileo's sire sons Roderic O'Connor who had a few grade 1 winners from shuttling to South America. The last I had heard of him in the Northern Hemisphere was when he was picked up by the UK National Stud in 2015 to stand at a £9,000 fee for the 2016 season and there was no sign of where he went from there. No new foals etc registered in the last few years

It took a bit of tracking down but his seeming falling off the face of the earth in 2016 was due to his being moved to Poonawalla Stud in India in 2016. The same Indian outfit had purchased Roderic in 2011 but it seems that there was a 5 year dual-hemisphere hiccup in their plans to bring him to India.

The Tetrarch

TheTorment wrote: »

I was interested in Order of St George but I will certainly be going for a look at Wings of Eagles now too.

My big regret about that 2017 Derby was after betting on Permian (RIP) I did my last bit of analysis the night before the race.

There is an old saying "never put sire line over sire line"
for example, never breed a Northern Dancer sire line stallion to a Northern Dancer sire line mare.
I take that a step further and compare the two sire lines of the sire with the two sire lines of the dam.
These days you often get four lines of Northern Dancer.

Using that saying I eliminated all the 2017 Derby field except Wings Of Eagles, who has Northern Dancer and Mill Reef sire lines in his sire Pour Moi, and Zeddaan and Red God as the sire lines of his dam, four different lines.
And then I decided he could not win. :cool:

tatoo

The Tetrarch wrote: »

My big regret about that 2017 Derby was after betting on Permian (RIP) I did my last bit of analysis the night before the race.

There is an old saying "never put sire line over sire line"
for example, never breed a Northern Dancer sire line stallion to a Northern Dancer sire line mare.
I take that a step further and compare the two sire lines of the sire with the two sire lines of the dam.
These days you often get four lines of Northern Dancer.

Using that saying I eliminated all the 2017 Derby field except Wings Of Eagles, who has Northern Dancer and Mill Reef sire lines in his sire Pour Moi, and Zeddaan and Red God as the sire lines of his dam, four different lines.
And then I decided he could not win. :cool:

Well feck it anyway, wasn't he 40 or 50/1 as well !
I saw him there recently, he's a very handsome horse about 16.1 1/2".......I think I'll probably send him a mare - didn't talk about money yet.

The Tetrarch

tatoo wrote: »

Well feck it anyway, wasn't he 40 or 50/1 as well !
I saw him there recently, he's a very handsome horse about 16.1 1/2".......I think I'll probably send him a mare - didn't talk about money yet.

He is a very good looking horse, with a presence.
I am interested in him for the flat, even if he is / becomes a jumps sire.

tryfix

tatoo wrote: »

Well feck it anyway, wasn't he 40 or 50/1 as well !
I saw him there recently, he's a very handsome horse about 16.1 1/2".......I think I'll probably send him a mare - didn't talk about money yet.

The Tetrarch wrote: »

He is a very good looking horse, with a presence.
I am interested in him for the flat, even if he is / becomes a jumps sire.

Good looks run in the family, above is Circuit Number One his €1.14 million ( Hong Kong sales record price breaking ) Holy Roman Emperor half brother who made that huge price despite being an unraced? 4yo gelding.

Wings Of Eagles made €220,000 himself which was a big price for a Pour Moi, his year older half sister by SeaThe Stars made €600,000 as a yearling and the promising Kingman filly Sparkle Roll made €750,000 a few months after Wings Of Eagles Derby win.

Wings Of Eagles dam Ysoldina finished 3rd in the French 1,000 gns and her half sibling Belle Et Celebre won the Gp1 Prix Saint alary. Their dam Rotina has produced 6 stakes winners.

That's a tasty flat pedigree for €6,500 a pop at this stage.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/wings-of-eagles-kin-sets-new-hk-intl-sale-record/

The Tetrarch

Wings Of Eagles English Derby win reminds me of the 1961 race won by Psidium 66/1.
Watch the 1961 race on Youtube (Pathe News), Psidium out the back most of the way, never in the race, sweeps by the lot and wins easily.
Both races on fast ground.

tatoo

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Wings Of Eagles English Derby win reminds me of the 1961 race won by Psidium 66/1.
Watch the 1961 race on Youtube (Pathe News), Psidium out the back most of the way, never in the race, sweeps by the lot and wins easily.
Both races on fast ground.

I must check it out, Wings of Eagles own win was very similar to his own sire's win.

tryfix

There's a 12f group 1 contest tonight in India. I had a look at the field to see what kind of pedigrees the runners possessed and lo and behold there's a Teofilo colt there who appears to be straight of the Jim Bolger "ye can't get enough of Galileo in a horse" school of inbreeding.

Bradfield College is by Teofilo ( Galileo X Speirbhean ) out of the Galileo mare Luminous One ( Galileo X Smaoineamh )

https://www.pedigreequery.com/bradfield+college

I've seen Bolger cross a Galileo mare with Galileo's half brother Sea The Star's but I think this is really taking the biscuit.

tryfix

tryfix wrote: »

There's a 12f group 1 contest tonight in India. I had a look at the field to see what kind of pedigrees the runners possessed and lo and behold there's a Teofilo colt there who appears to be straight of the Jim Bolger "ye can't get enough of Galileo in a horse" school of inbreeding.

Bradfield College is by Teofilo ( Galileo X Speirbhean ) out of the Galileo mare Luminous One ( Galileo X Smaoineamh )

https://www.pedigreequery.com/bradfield+college

I've seen Bolger cross a Galileo mare with Galileo's half brother Sea The Star's but I think this is really taking the biscuit.

Bradfield College ran a fine 2nd to the favourite Indian Pharaoh. So now Coolmore know what to do with all those Galileo mares that are clogging up the place, just send them to his stallion sons. :pac:

tatoo

Ha ha, problem solved !

Is there anything to be said for sending a dual purpose/national hunt Montjeu mare to a son of Galileo do you think?
I would've been inclined to avoid a SW repetition top and bottom.

tryfix

tatoo wrote: »

Ha ha, problem solved !

Is there anything to be said for sending a dual purpose/national hunt Montjeu mare to a son of Galileo do you think?
I would've been inclined to avoid a SW repetition top and bottom.

The Tetrarch could guide you on the suitability.

From my own POV I'd think that a Montjeu mare to a Galileo son could be worth risking. It's 3x3 inbreeding while the mighty Enable got away with 3x2 inbreeding and that seems to have worked out well.

Montjeu mare to son of Galileo 3x3

Sire- Galileo X sire's dam- Sadlers's Wells

Mare- Montjeu X mare's dam - Sadler's Wells



Enable 3x2

Nathaniel- Galileo X Magnificent Style - Sadler's Wells

Concentric - Sadler's Wells X Apogee




One of the most successful nicks of recent times has been the Danehill X Sadler's Wells cross.

Peeping Fawn 3X3

Danehill - Danzig X Razyana - Northern Dancer

Maryinsky - Sadlers's Wells X Blush With Pride - Northern Dancer.

The Tetrarch

I see my name mentioned.

My preference if for inbreeding duplications to be in the 4th, 5th, 6th generations because you can have more of them as there are more horses in those generations (16+32+64).
If the inbreeding is in the 2nd or 3rd generation there are so few horses that close (1+2+4+8) that it is hit or miss with one inbreeding.
With Enable the 3x2 to Sadler's Wells produce a son and daughter, and that is different from an inbreeding producing two sons (the common result), and imo the undesired result).

I did a bit of work over the weekend on Northern Dancer, checking on the many sons of his you find in pedigrees and how few daughters you find.
This happens because of the many sons of famous sires that go to stud. Below is an extract from a PM I sent.

Northern Dancer has 506 offspring in my data, 222 colts, 284 fillies.
The 222 colts (sons of Northern Dancer) had 17,464 offspring.
the 284 fillies (daughters of Northern Dancer) had 1,470 offspring.
17,464 horses carrying sons of Northern Dancer and 1,470 carrying daughters of Northern Dancer. an 11.88 to 1 ratio.
Moving on another generation the 17,464 produced 85,597 and the 1,470 produced 6,086, the ratio now 14.06 to 1.

You can see how quickly pedigrees are flooded with sons of Northern Dancer, 85,597 to 6,086.
93% of Northern Dancer duplications are sons, and 7% are daughters.

3,049 of the 6,086 descendents of Northern Dancer through daughters
continue through a handful of sires scattered around the world, few in Ireland

Below on the left is the daughter of Norther Dancer and then the count of the offspring through her sons and daughters. Her major sire son(s) is listed.
BALLET DE FRANCE (f) 140 MUHTARRAM - stud in Ireland (retired?)
DANCE NUMBER (f) 629 RHYTHM - stud in Japan, New Zealand, USA
DANSEUR FABULEUX (f) 389 - NOVERRE - stud in Ireland, UK, Australia, India; ARAZI (f) -stud in UK, USA, Japan, Switzerland, Australia
DISCONIZ (f) 97 - DIGAMIST - stud in Ireland, USA
FALAFEL (f) 270 - BRIEF TRUCE - stud in Ireland, Australia
FANFRELUCHE (f) 275 - D'ACCORD; L'ENJOLEUR; MEDAILLE D'OR - all stud USA
NORTHERN SEA (f) 487 - SOUTHERN HALO - stud in Argentina
SLEEK DANCER (f) 103 - NORTHERN PROSPECT - stud in USA
WILD APPLAUSE (f) 659 - ROAR - stud in USA and Argentina

Where there is a close inbreeding that works there is often a component of that inbreeding elsewhere in the pedigree to balance it.
Peeping Fawn (f) has a 3x3 Northern Dancer inbreeding, but Northern Dancer's dam Natalma is also in Danehill to balance (Peeping Fawn is 4,4x4 to Natalma (f)).

And in Peeping Fawn the dam side of her sire Danehill, and the dam side of her dam Maryinsky both have .......
Alibhai (daughter and son);
Menow (son and daughter);
Busanda (f) (War Admiral out of Businesslike(whose dam is La Troienne)) and Mr Busher (m) (War Admiral out of Baby League (whose dam id La Troienne)).
Bull Dog;
Discovery;
Blenheim.

People who try a close inbreeding usually get two sons of a duplicated sire (imo a negative) and that seldom works without a lot of other positives.

The Tetrarch

Specious honours being awarded as Pattern grows to record size
https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/more-to-read/specious-honours-being-awarded-as-pattern-grows-to-record-size/353311

Down near the end of his article Tony Morris writes
"My analyses of pedigrees show 144 instances of winners inbred within four generations, virtually on a par with last year.
While the name most commonly repeated is still that of Northern Dancer, his sons and grandsons are now featuring prominently, as was to be expected.
When the old breed-shaper departs into the further reaches of pedigrees, it is a fair bet that Danzig will become the most duplicated ancestor.
In 1998, when there were 244 individual Pattern winners, I found that 56 of them (23 per cent) had pedigrees showing no duplications within five generations.
Twenty years on only 14 of the 324 winners (four per cent) were bred that way.
Of course, these days everybody wants to use the same horses, and bigger books ensure that they get the opportunity. Diversity in the breed is becoming extinct.

tatoo

Thanks indeed for that, very little success rate demonstrated by pattern winners for the SW duplication,
It will be interesting to see how inbreeding to Urban Sea might fare out.
The National Hunt stallion ranksxare choc full of Sadlers Wells , sons, grandsons and great grandsons, it's hard to escape them if you have a SW line mare.

tryfix

tatoo wrote: »

Thanks indeed for that, very little success rate demonstrated by pattern winners for the SW duplication,
It will be interesting to see how inbreeding to Urban Sea might fare out.
The National Hunt stallion ranksxare choc full of Sadlers Wells , sons, grandsons and great grandsons, it's hard to escape them if you have a SW line mare.

Last year's Derby winner Masar is 3x4 inbred to Urban Sea. His dam Khawalah has a half sister and half brother both inbred 3x3 to Urban Sea one by Teofilo and one by Masar's own sire New Approach.

That family line is full of very successful inbreeding to Urban Sea and they also had several attempts to reproduce another Sea The Stars as they tend to use Cape Cross a lot. Khawalah's grand dam Melikah ( Lammtarra X Urban Sea ) died while in foal to Cape Cross's son Golden Horn.

Robson99

tatoo wrote: »

The National Hunt stallion ranksxare choc full of Sadlers Wells , sons, grandsons and great grandsons, it's hard to escape them if you have a SW line mare.

Whatever about Sadlers Wells sons there is an ass load of sons of Galileo in the NH ranks
What would lads think of sons of Nayef for NH and an outcross for Sadlers Wells line? Two well bred ones in this country Snow Sky and Valirann, the former being rated 124 during his racing career

tryfix

tryfix wrote: »

As usual there were lots of blue bloods on show today at even a modest Curragh meet.

One in particular stands out as an example of the incredible speed influence that War Front is when he's crossed with the Coolmore broodband.

After the example of 3yo 6f Gp1 winner US Navy Flag ( War Front x Misty For Me ( Galileo ) and his full sister Roly Poly who both managed Group 1 wins at 2 over 6f. This evening at the Curragh Lost Treasure ( War Front x Wading ( Montjeu ) ) was a fine winner of a 5f 3yo maiden despite being out of a Montjeu dam who is herself a full sister to Irish Oaks winner Bracelet. It's one thing to overcome Galileo's staying influence but it's on another level to be able to overcome the very stout stamina influence that Montjeu is in a pedigree. It may also end up being a thing that the War Front colts will show slightly more speed than their sisters.

I don't know whether Coolmore have stumbled across this match that can speed their middle-distance bloodlines up to sprint level while they were seeking to produce milers or whether the pedigree boffs there knew this speed would come out even in their middle-distance broodmares, but to my mind this sprint speed is something to bear in mind when looking at these War Fronts that Ballydoyle is saturated with.

Also in the race before Lost Treasure's there was a Ballydoyle win for Sir Erec who is a Camelot colt out of a Galileo mare which is a cross that could become quite fashionable as Camelot benefits from more attention now that he's proven himself capable of producing Group 1 winners.

Lost Treasure's half sister the 2yo Just Wonderful ( Dansili X Wading ) kind of proves the speed point about War Front by being a 1m Gp3 winner today as a juvenile while her War Front half brother is winning 5f races as a 3yo.

tatoo wrote: »

Ha ha, problem solved !

Is there anything to be said for sending a dual purpose/national hunt Montjeu mare to a son of Galileo do you think?
I would've been inclined to avoid a SW repetition top and bottom.

Today Sir Erec proved that Camelot over Galileo ( 3x3 inbred to Sadler's Wells ) can indeed produce grade 1 winners, at least over the jumps he can. I think Magnier himself bred this fellow.

It's also a nice timely boost for the Montjeu line for anyone that's thinking of getting into the Montjeu line bargain bucket Epsom Derby winner Wings Of Eagles @ €6,500.

tatoo

tryfix wrote: »

Today Sir Erec proved that Camelot over Galileo ( 3x3 inbred to Sadler's Wells ) can indeed produce grade 1 winners, at least over the jumps he can. I think Magnier himself bred this fellow.

It's also a nice timely boost for the Montjeu line for anyone that's thinking of getting into the Montjeu line bargain bucket Epsom Derby winner Wings Of Eagles @ €6,500.

I see the 2m6f novice hurdle was also won by a horse inbred 3x3 to Sadlers Wells, Commander of Fleet being by Fame and Glory ( Montjeu) out of the Saddler's Hall mare Coonagh Cross.
While that's a couple of notable successes for the cross , I wonder how they compare statistically when the total number of runners with that cross is taken into account.

tryfix

It's a tale of two hemispheres for the stallion career of the 10 times gp1 winner So You Think.

For a horse who retired at the same time as Frankel he has a similar 5 indivual Gp 1 winners haul and off a fraction of Frankel's fee, but all those Gr1 winners are in Australia and they're pacey types down under like Friday's 7f Gp1 winner Nakeeta Jane, a 3yo fully who's on an upward curve.

Up in the northern hemisphere So You think has a modest looking 10% wins to runs ratio with his best strike rate at 14f plus. I don't know why it has worked like that but he was always going to better utilised in Australia than here. A question of unsuitable northern hemisphere matings or just the fact that So You Think's stock are better suited to the style of racing in Australia?

tryfix

Frankel's younger brother Noble Mission appears to be well set for a successful stud career of his own in the USA after his 2yo Gr 1 placed son Code Of Honor won the Gr 2 Fountain Of Youth stakes gaining him 50 points in the Road To The Kentucky Derby Series thereby giving him a certain starting place in the Kentucky Derby.

Noble Mission's stock look to be plainer and more resolute types than the flashy stock that his brother Frankel produces.

https://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/232332/code-of-honor-breaks-through-in-fountain-of-youth

The Tetrarch

tatoo wrote: »

I see the 2m6f novice hurdle was also won by a horse inbred 3x3 to Sadlers Wells, Commander of Fleet being by Fame and Glory ( Montjeu) out of the Saddler's Hall mare Coonagh Cross.
While that's a couple of notable successes for the cross , I wonder how they compare statistically when the total number of runners with that cross is taken into account.

These are from my own data, and should not be taken as complete.
I found in my data 190 horses with Sadler’s Wells twice in the first three generations.
Note that he could be 1x3, 3x1, 2x3, 3x2, 3x3.
I found none where Sadler’s Wells was in the first generation i.e. he was the sire.
There were 31 that were either non-runners (confirmed) or where I could not find a rating, and my guess is they were also non-runners.

Averages for 159 rated horses with a Sadler's Wells duplication 3x3 or closer.
colts geldings fillies
average rating 87.0 74.7 71.8
median rating 93.5 71.0 71.5


The average ratings for over 150,000 horses in my data was 93.8 for colts and 74.5 for both geldings and fillies.
You can see that inbreeding to Sadler’s Wells in the first three generations does not make much difference.

31 horses were rated 100+, 23 colts/geldings, 8 fillies.
36 horses were rated below 60, 16 colts/geldings, 20 fillies.
92 horses were rated 60 to 99, the middle ground.

In close inbreeding, 3x3 or nearer, there are only seven positions for the duplicated stallion to appear, four on the sire side, three on the dam side.
Sire (s), sire’s sire (ss), Sire’s sire’s sire (sss), sire’s dam’s sire (sds).
Dam’s sire (ds), dam’s sire’s sire (dss), dam’s dam’s sire (dds).

In the 100+ rated horses (31) Sadler’s Wells appeared
9 times as the sire of two sons (29% of the 31 horses)
21 times as the sire of a son and daughter (68% of the 31 horses)
1 time as the sire of two daughters (3% of the 31 horses).

In the 60- rated horses (36) Sadler’s Wells appeared
14 times as the sire of two sons (39%)
19 times as the sire of a son and daughter (53%)
3 times as the sire of two daughters (8%).

You can see that the horses rated under 60 have more (imo) bad inbreeding.
I believe inbreeding to a sire who produces two sons in the pedigree is a negative, unless it is balanced by another factor.

Sadler’s Wells sire Northern Dancer, has two well known sires in his near ancestors, Nearco producing a son, and Native Dancer producing a DAUGHTER. Where there is inbreeding to Sadler’s Wells (i.e. he is there twice) then there is also a daughter of Native Dancer twice.

A further examination of the pedigrees of the 100+ rated horses with two sons of the duplicated Sadler’s Wells (9 of 31 horses) and the 60- rated horses (14 of 36 horses) showed
the 100+ rated group had SONS of Native Dancer an average 2.33 times
the 60- rated group had SONS of Native Dancer an average 1.29 times.

I think this balancing influence helped to produce the better ratings for the horses with negative inbreeding (two sons of a sire).
The 100+ group had 68% with the more desirable son and daughter of a sire, against 53% for the 60- rated group.
The 100+ group had only 29% two sons of Sadler's Wells (against 39% for the 60- group).
And the 29% two sons group had more Native dancer sons in their pedigrees.

Other inbreedings in the 159 rated horses are ignored in the above work.
It would be a mistake to judge a horse on his sire only, or his dam only, or one one inbreeding group.

tatoo

Great research , fantastic stuff.
No real benefit to repeating SW at all, especially as you point out via two sons, you would have thought that such an influential and prolific sire would produce some sort of benefit when repeated, very interesting that a repeat via son and daughter has a marked benefit when compared to the sons duplication.

Poor old Sir Erec met with a sad end at Cheltenham .

I see Idaho is standing at The Beeches Stud Coolmore NH

https://coolmore.com/farms/nationalhunt/stallions/idaho

No details of fee as yet

The Tetrarch

TheTorment wrote: »

I see Idaho is standing at The Beeches Stud Coolmore NH

I see he is by Galileo out of a Danehill mare.
Frankel, Highland Reel, Intello, Roderic O'Connor, Teofilo have the same.
This is fairly common. In my data there are 69 colts, 16 geldings, 65 fillies by Galileo out of a Danehill mare.

The lower part of Idaho's pedigree would be more familiar to Australians and New Zealanders.
Idaho's dam line: Hveger (AUS) by Danehill out of Circles Of Gold (AUS) by Marscay (AUS) out of Olympic Aim (NZ) by Zamazaan (FR) out of Gold Vink (NZ) by Gold Sovereign (GB)

tryfix

TheTorment wrote: »

I see Idaho is standing at The Beeches Stud Coolmore NH

https://coolmore.com/farms/nationalhunt/stallions/idaho

No details of fee as yet

He's an interesting physical type with a commercial pedigree. As far as I can remember he's a bit heavier than his brother Highland Reel who is a very tall horse himself. He makes a better NH stallion prospect than his brother ( assuming that Highland Reel's Flat Stallion career won't last too many years ) would. Idaho is built for ploughing through winter ground while Highland Reel's soft ground form was a shadow of his firm ground form.

tatoo

tryfix wrote: »

He's an interesting physical type with a commercial pedigree. As far as I can remember he's a bit heavier than his brother Highland Reel who is a very tall horse himself. He makes a better NH stallion prospect than his brother ( assuming that Highland Reel's Flat Stallion career won't last too many years ) would. Idaho is built for ploughing through winter ground while Highland Reel's soft ground form was a shadow of his firm ground form.

I think Coolmores own site have Highland Reel down as being 16.01/4 hh..is that a bit of an underestimation?

Is Idaho a similar height?

tryfix

tatoo wrote: »

I think Coolmores own site have Highland Reel down as being 16.01/4 hh..is that a bit of an underestimation?

Is Idaho a similar height?

I must have got it very wrong about his height , probably because Highland Reel's rather lean build made him look taller than he is and IIRC he always looked like a tall horse when walking around with the other horses ( it's hard to believe that a horse like Saxon Warrior is taller than him ). They don't say what height Idaho is ( and don't appear to mention the height of their NH stallions on the site ). I remember Aidan O'Brien saying at the start of the 2017 season that they were excited about Idaho and Highland Reel competing in the top races describing them both as big horses and saying how Idaho as a 4yo was now a heavier horse than his big brother Highland Reel.

Although it might make sense to play down Highland Reel's height to make him seem more suitable for a career as a flat stallion, I don't think they have as they already have plenty of taller flat stallions than him according to the website.

The big bruiser is Churchill at 16.2h 1.67m which is smaller than the notable big boy So You Think who at 16.3h is for some odd reason is only classed at 1.66m? on the Coolmore site.

Fastenet Rock 16.1 1/2h. 1.66
Mastercraftsman. 16.1 1/2h 1.66
Sioux Nation. 16.1 1/2h 1.66
Footstepsinthesand 16.1h 1.65
Ivawood. 16.1h 1.65
Saxon Warrior. 16.1h. 1.64
Galileo. 16.01/2. 1.63
Australia. 16.01/2h 1.63
Kingston Hill 16.01/2h 1.63




Looks can be deceiving.

Caravaggio looked to be a typical big sprinter but he's just 15.3½ h 1.61.

Epsom Derby winner Ruler Of The World is only 15.3h 1 61

The smallest stallion there I think is Gustav Klimt who's 15.2h 1.58.

The Tetrarch

I would like independent measurements if people are quoting stallion heights.
The studs will imo always give 16 hands or 16 1, which is what the market expects.
Perhaps for a sprinter sire they will give 15.3 and above.

The Bloodstock Breeders Review annuals (1912 -1981?) always gave the measurements of the English Derby runners, as supplied by My Meyrick Good in The Sporting Life.
I opened the 1950 edition, 25 runners in the race, measurements given for 15: height; bone; girth; hip to hock.
"As the footnaote shows, he expressed some doubts as to the figures given concerningTelegram II, and he later doubted the accuracy of Galcador's height" (the winner at 100/9).

tryfix

I was looking through the results for the day and one of the winners popped out at me in a how the mighty have fallen kind of way.

Surprise 2016 Grand Prix De Paris winner Mont Ormel was snapped up soon after that to run in Hong Kong where he runs under the name of Helene Charisma. Now aged 6 and Gelded he had been reduced to an OR 74 horse without a win since he won that French Gp1, he's now on a mini roll after today winning his 2nd minor handicap in a row at Happy Valley.

I hate that when a horse with a possible stallion career ahead of them then gets run into the ground to a stage where they're just Gelded and given up on.

Mont Ormel would probably have made a reasonably attractive NH sire. His own sire the bargain basement Air Chief Marshall comes from a mighty little family of triers. G1 2nd Air Chief Marshall is a brother to both the sire Misu Bond and the Irish 2,000 Guineas 2nd Foxtrot Romeo as well as being a half brother to last year's Irish St Leger winner Flag Of Honour, there's also the Sweet Solera stakes 2nd Slip Dancer and in total their dam Hawala has produced 12 winners out of 13 foals to hit the track with the 13th foal being the Galileo colt Four Leaf Clover who is just 3yo now and as he has had only the one run out yet for Aidan O'Brien it's odds on that he'll make it 13 winner out of 13 runners for his mighty dam Hawala.

Johner

We just had a lovely Getaway colt who's a half brother to Benny's Bridge.

Got a deal on Idaho as well for another cover, impressive looking horse.

tryfix

Pivotal had a G1 winner ( Avilius ) yesterday in Australia and he is still covering mares at the age of 26. A class act.

tryfix

The almighty Deep Impact is out of action for the rest of the season with a neck injury. His crop from this year will number only 20 and that's the figure they are aiming to let him cover next year as well as they try to make him more comfortable.

tatoo

tryfix wrote: »

Today Sir Erec proved that Camelot over Galileo ( 3x3 inbred to Sadler's Wells ) can indeed produce grade 1 winners, at least over the jumps he can. I think Magnier himself bred this fellow.

It's also a nice timely boost for the Montjeu line for anyone that's thinking of getting into the Montjeu line bargain bucket Epsom Derby winner Wings Of Eagles @ €6,500.

Similar type cross in today's Grade One hurdle winner at Liverpool, and Triumph Hurdle winner Pentland Hills, by the Montjeu Derby winner Motivator out of a Galileo mare.

tryfix

As predicted the Australias are looking to be much better as 3yos. Broome's 8L win in the Ballysax was a demonstration of the brutal physical strength that the Australias possess. So far there's nothing too pretty about the physical types that Australia is throwing ( although Beyond Reason is an exception she's still a strong physical type ). They're sinewy powerful animals without the good looks of the likes of the Galileos and Dubawis, but handsome is as handsome does.

It's going to be interesting to see if the unraced at 2 Australias like the impressive maiden winner Buckhurst can quickly progress to Gp1 company as 3yos. So far Australia who began at €50k and is now @ €35k is looking to be a bit of a steal as he looks to be on his way to the very top as a stallion.

tryfix

Gleneagles got off the mark with his very first 2yo runner when 16/1 shot Highland Chief took a 5f maiden at Newbury. Gleneagles stock have sold very well at the sales and there's been a lot of talk about how well they are doing in training.

Mgoraf

There's an American pharoah running in the first at naas tomorrow

tryfix

Mgoraf wrote: »

There's an American pharoah running in the first at naas tomorrow

From the pictures on apobfs.com it's a beast of a yoke ( it was named Horus Bird but that's being changed to Monarch Of Egypt which is a very boring name). I'd be surprised if there's not a heap of Gp winning 2yo American Pharoah's coming out of Ballydoyle this year, they have 7 of them in training.

Peintre Celebre

How long is Frankel's fee sustainable? He has a single horse still in the Guineas a 50/1 shot that was runner up in an all weather maiden at two. Those going to him hoping for a more precocious horse than even Galileo must be scratching their heads even if they have sold well. Can't see him being near this fee down the line. I'd imagine Kingman will be higher within two or three years. Probably Australia too

WicklowBrave

I think Gleneagles will be a very successful stallion. He will take over from Galileo.

ASOT

tryfix wrote: »

From the pictures on apobfs.com it's a beast of a yoke ( it was named Horus Bird but that's being changed to Monarch Of Egypt which is a very boring name). I'd be surprised if there's not a heap of Gp winning 2yo American Pharoah's coming out of Ballydoyle this year, they have 7 of them in training.

Won as well as could be asked on debut, will come on massively from that run I'd say.

tryfix

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

How long is Frankel's fee sustainable? He has a single horse still in the Guineas a 50/1 shot that was runner up in an all weather maiden at two. Those going to him hoping for a more precocious horse than even Galileo must be scratching their heads even if they have sold well. Can't see him being near this fee down the line. I'd imagine Kingman will be higher within two or three years. Probably Australia too

In the short term Frankel's fee is sustainable, despite many reservations about his stock he has produced the goods with his being the fastest ever to hit 20 group winners in the Northern Hemisphere and he has a great winners to runners ratio with an awful lot of 100+ rated runners. As trainers get more used to the many quirks of the Frankels it appears to be a case of not asking them for more than they can give and giving them plenty of time to come to hand. They are predominantly flat track bullies who dominate lesser quality horses but they find it hard to reproduce their best form against battle hardened Group 1 horses.

His weaknesses are with his fillies ( East may do a lot to address that ) but to my way of thinking there's a school of thought amongst the breeding fraternity that his fillies are going to be very valuable broodmare prospects ( as long as they think that his fee will stay high ). Time will tell but the mares that are being supplied to him are of a high enough quality to ensure that his stock will be good broodmares with or without Frankel's help.

tryfix

WicklowBrave wrote: »

I think Gleneagles will be a very successful stallion. He will take over from Galileo.

It's early days but I never doubted that his fabulous pedigree and top class form would ensure he was a great success at stud.

I don't think any one stallion bar Dubawi can take over from Galileo.

Australia is the heir apparent and looks sure to be providing Derby winning types for the duration of his career, but I don't think he'll have the same impact with his juveniles that Galileo has had and that part of Galileo's career is of equal importance to the exploits of his older horses.

To make matters more difficult for any heir to Galileo, it's now a case that Galileo himself is going to fall back as his stock continue to lose many big races to the progeny of his own sons and daughters. Also Coolmore have begun to produce numerous American bred stallion prospects which are both precious and brilliant stallion competition for the stouter Galileo types.