Stallions

tryfix

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Night Of Thunder fee raised from 25k to 75k.
Did someone have finger trouble typing out the fee changes?

The market will bear it. He covered 213 mares this year.

He's a well bred 2,000 Guineas winner and he has achieved great results from a low starting fee. 55% winners to runners, 54% of his runners have an rpr above 80. They are often precocious and train on. I don't see any truly G1 class horses in his haul yet, but at 75k he'll be getting an upgrade in the quality of the mares being sent to him.

Isn't Dubawi doing well as a sire of sires?

tryfix

It's damn hard to make it as a stallion at Coolmore. The Gurkha needs some fireworks this year to ensure that he stays there for the 2022 season.

Wootton Basset at €100,000 and No Nay Never at €125,000 ( down from €175k this year ) look to be very pricey when you consider that Invincible Spirit can be had for €80,000 over at the Irish National Stud. Fastnet Rock at €50k is more than fair and Mastercraftsman is a gift at €15k.

Rabbit Redux

€100k seems a bit excessive for Wooton Bassett. Granted he's an outcross from much of Coolmore's established bloodlines so he'll appeal to owners of Galileo-bred mares etc. but Coolmore are really pitching him high. Their hype machine has been in overdrive since they bought him from France. Presumably they'll send plenty of their own mares to him in the next few years.

I says

Rabbit Redux wrote: »

€100k seems a bit excessive for Wooton Bassett. Granted he's an outcross from much of Coolmore's established bloodlines so he'll appeal to owners of Galileo-bred mares etc. but Coolmore are really pitching him high. Their hype machine has been in overdrive since they bought him from France. Presumably they'll send plenty of their own mares to him in the next few years.

He’s cheap at that price. Well able to upgrade his mares and now he’s getting the creme de la creme. Coolmore need a replacement for Galileo and he’s it.

Rabbit Redux

I says wrote: »

He’s cheap at that price. Well able to upgrade his mares and now he’s getting the creme de la creme. Coolmore need a replacement for Galileo and he’s it.

He's done well considering his very low initial nomination fee, and he wouldn't have got the most choicely bred mares considering his only meaningful win was the Prix Jean-Luc Lagardère as a 2yo. If he continues to enhance his place at stud, it will be by virtue of his progeny's success rather than what he himself achieved on the racecourse, in the mould of the likes of Invincible Spirit or even going back to Ahonoora.
It's possible that Coolmore could well enhance his reputation by sending him much better quality mares, but he'll have to produce the goods quickly if he's to justify his €100k fee as far as other commercial breeders are concerned.

tryfix

I says wrote: »

He’s cheap at that price. Well able to upgrade his mares and now he’s getting the creme de la creme. Coolmore need a replacement for Galileo and he’s it.

Ideally they need one of the top 2 or 3 stallions in the world standing in Tipperary and an understudy to that top Stallion who is himself in the top 10 turf stallions in the World.

In Sadlers Wells and Danehill they had the top 2 turf stallions in the World and they had Montjeu and Galileo coming through at the same time. Also Danehill Dancer worked his way up to being exceptional but never fashionable.

In a fashion sense Wootton Basset is in the Danehill Dancer category, a horse who will consistently produce Group and G1 winners without having the kind of Champion aura that followed Sadlers Wells, Danehill and Galileo. Even the mighty Danehill had to work his way up from producing precocious types to a level where he was getting the type of mares that can produce a stream of Classic winners to elevate him to the very top.

I don't believe the Coolmore hype machine about them putting their money where their mouth is and sending the best of their own to him. They have dozens of minor Galileo mares to send his way, which is probably as far as they will go towards supporting him. He won't get too much handed on a plate to him until he has forced himself into a position there where he can't be ignored.



At the moment Coolmore have Galileo and dozens of G1 winning bluebloods passing through there but living in his shadow.

They want a replacement for him but they are in no rush at all. What they crave at the moment is a new Scat Daddy, a stallion that produces powerful 2yos that can go on to compete in the top 5-8f+ races at 3yo+. A stallion like that is a golden ticket and a perfect complement to the Derby-Guineas-Leger types that Galileo and his sons pump out. No Nay Never was ramped up to exploit the desire out there for speed. The problem with No Nay Never is while we're waiting for the expensively bred ones to do amazing things, we're left with the cheaper ones trying to imitate what he could produce in a few years. He really stamps his stock in a more elegant way than his own sire did with his equine gorillas.

Have you seen Justify settling into his stallion career? He's still rippling with muscles, he has a neck like a bull, there's muscle up there that I never saw on any horse and he's full of energy. If he makes the grade as a stallion Ballydoyle will be flooded with his stock.

tryfix

That's a quality roster, although the quantity of quality on each farm is maybe a little short? Shamardal is such a huge loss to them as a source of attractive sires.

Hopefully the likes of Pinatubo, Earthlight and Bluepoint will prove top notch and keep his legacy intact.

Too Darn Hot in particular and Ghaiyath have beautiful pedigrees which would make them very expensive to use in the future if they can deliver at Stud.

It's instructive to see how the market has little love for the 10-12f Champions such as Golden Horn, Cracksman and Postponed who stand at £20k, £17.5k and £7.5k.

tryfix

Aga Khan Studs

DARIYAN : €8,000
HARZAND : €8,000
SEA THE STARS : €150,000
SIYOUNI : €140,000
ZARAK : €12,000

Poor old Harzand a young stallion and Dual Derby winner scratching for a living while his more illustrious compatriots who proved their speed and prowess are soaring away from him.

Siyouni's fee will likely soon eclipse that of Sea The Stars, as good as Sea The Stars is at Stud he's still not getting top juveniles. I wonder if he was sent some mares who are proven sources of Juvenile pattern horses would it give him those precious Juvenile Stars?

tryfix

Bargains galore, even the dearest of them in Invincible Spirit is a bargain. Although €8,000 for Free Eagle looks to be saucy.

The Tetrarch

tryfix wrote: »

Bargains galore, even the dearest of them in Invincible Spirit is a bargain.

I agree. The prices below the first couple (out of my price range) are value.
National Defense by Invincible Spirit has a strong line of stallions on his dam line: Kingmambo; Caerleon; Ela-Mana-Mou; Mill Reef.

I says

The 2021 return of mares will be interesting re: Wotton Bassett

Kew Gardens has arrived at Castlehyde Stud

Kew Gardens has arrived at Castlehyde Stud where he will stand under the Coolmore N.H. banner. A son of the incomparable Galileo out of Group 1 Moyglare Stud Stakes winner Chelsea Rose, he was bred by the world-renowned Barronstown Stud.

As a two-year-old Kew Gardens won the Listed Zetland Stakes at Newmarket and the following season he landed a pair of Group 1’s namely the Grand Prix de Paris at Longchamp and the St Leger Stakes at Doncaster. On his final start as a four-year-old he took the notable scalp of superstar Stradivarius on British Champions Day at Ascot.

“Kew Gardens is a fine big, strong, very good-looking horse with plenty of bone and a great walk,” said Castlehyde’s Cathal Murphy. “He’s by Galileo out of a Group 1-winning two-year-old, he was a good two-year-old himself and won France’s premier race for three-year-olds over a mile and a half. We think he’s a great addition to the roster here at Castlehyde.”

A fee for Kew Gardens will be announced at a later date.

Taken from Coolmore email

IAMAMORON

How would I find out how many hands a horse is? Without measuring one myself.

Is it recorded anywhere and would anyone be able to put me in the right direction?

What I am looking to see is how tall the NH sires get, the likes of Mahler and Kew Gardens would still be growing at 4 or 5 years of age?

The Tetrarch

ACCLAMATION____________16.00
ADAAY__________________15.35
ADLERFLUG______________16.00
AEROPLANE______________16.00
AFFINISEA______________16.20
AGENT SECRET___________16.30
AIKEN__________________16.20
AIR CHIEF MARSHAL______16.00
AL KAZEEM______________16.10
AL NAMIX_______________16.30
AL WUKAIR______________16.05
ALBAASIL_______________16.00
ALHADAB________________16.00
ALHEBAYEB______________16.00
ALIANTHUS______________16.10
ALKAADHEM______________16.05
ALMANZOR_______________16.15
ALTRUISTIC_____________16.10
AMARILLO_______________16.10
AMARON_________________16.10
AMERICAN DEVIL_________15.35
AMICO FRITZ____________15.35
ANJAAL_________________16.00
ANODIN_________________16.00
ARAKAN_________________16.00
ARCADIO________________16.10
ARCTIC COSMOS__________16.25
AREION_________________15.35
ASIAN HEIGHTS__________16.10
ASSERTIVE______________16.00
ATTENDU________________16.00
AUSTRALIA______________16.05
AVONBRIDGE_____________16.00
AWTAAD_________________16.10
AXXOS__________________16.05
BALKO__________________16.20
BALLINGARRY____________16.20
BARASTRAIGHT___________16.20
BARELY A MOMENT________16.00
BATED BREATH___________16.05
BATHYRHON______________16.20
BATTLE OF MARENGO______16.05
BELARDO________________16.35
BLUE BRESIL____________16.20
BLUEPRINT______________16.20
BOBBY'S KITTEN_________16.10
BORN TO SEA____________16.10
BOW CREEK______________16.10
BRAMETOT_______________16.00
BRAVE MANSONNIEN_______16.10
BRIAN BORU_____________16.20
BUCK'S BOUM____________16.20
BUNGLE INTHEJUNGLE_____16.10
BURATINO_______________16.00
BURMA GOLD_____________16.15
BURWAAZ________________16.10
CABLE BAY______________16.35
CALIFET________________16.15
CAMACHO________________16.30
CAMELOT________________16.00
CAMERON HIGHLAND_______16.00
CANNOCK CHASE__________16.10
CAPPELLA SANSEVERO_____16.10
CAPTAIN CHOP___________15.30
CAPTAIN MARVELOUS______16.10
CARLO BANK_____________16.20
CARLOTAMIX_____________16.10
CASAMENTO______________16.10
CASTEL SANT'ANGELO_____16.05
CASTLE DU BERLAIS______16.05
CAT JUNIOR_____________16.00
CHARM SPIRIT___________16.00
CHARMING THOUGHT_______16.00
CHICHI CREASY__________16.00
CHURCHILL______________16.20
CIMA DE TRIOMPHE_______16.10
CITYSCAPE______________16.10
CLERKENWELL____________16.20
CLODOVIL_______________15.30
CLOUDINGS______________16.20
CLOVIS DU BERLAIS______15.30
COACH HOUSE____________16.00
COCKNEY REBEL__________16.10
COKORIKO_______________16.20
CONDUIT________________16.10
CORONER________________16.10
COTAI GLORY____________16.00
COULSTY________________16.10
COUNTERATTACK__________16.00
COURT CAVE_____________16.10
CREACHADOIR____________16.15
CRILLON________________16.10
CROCO ROUGE____________16.10
CROSSHARBOUR___________16.20
DABIRSIM_______________16.20
DANDY MAN______________15.30
DARIYAN________________15.30
DARK ANGEL_____________16.00
DARTMOUTH______________16.10
DAWN APPROACH__________16.15
DE TREVILLE____________16.00
DIAMOND BOY____________16.25
DIAMOND GREEN__________16.10
DOCTOR DINO____________16.15
DOYEN__________________16.20
DRAGON DANCER__________16.00
DRAGON PULSE___________16.00
DREAM AHEAD____________16.10
DUBAWI_________________15.30
DUE DILIGENCE__________16.00
DUTCH ART______________15.30
EARL OF TINSDAL________15.20
EASTERN ANTHEM_________16.30
ECTOT__________________16.10
EL SALVADOR____________16.20
ELECTRIC BEAT__________16.00
ELLIPTIQUE_____________16.00
ELUSIVE PIMPERNEL______16.30
ELVSTROEM______________16.10
ELZAAM_________________15.30
EQUIANO________________15.35
ESTIDHKAAR_____________16.00
EXCEED AND EXCEL_______16.05
FALCO__________________16.25
FAMOUS NAME____________15.30
FARHH__________________16.10
FASCINATING ROCK_______16.15
FAST COMPANY___________16.10
FASTNET ROCK___________16.15
FEEL LIKE DANCING______16.25
FINSCEAL FIOR__________16.00
FLY WITH ME____________16.10
FOOTSTEPSINTHESAND_____16.10
FOREVER NOW____________16.10
FOUNTAIN OF YOUTH______16.00
FRAMMASSONE____________16.10
FRANKEL________________16.10
FREE EAGLE_____________16.00
FREE PORT LUX__________16.30
FRENCH FIFTEEN_________16.00
FRENCH NAVY____________16.10
FULBRIGHT______________15.30
FULL OF GOLD___________16.20
GALILEO________________16.05
GALILEO GOLD___________16.10
GALIWAY________________16.00
GAMUT__________________16.20
GARSWOOD_______________16.20
GEMIX__________________16.00
GENTLEWAVE_____________16.10
GEORGE VANCOUVER_______15.35
GLADIATORUS____________16.25
GLENEAGLES_____________15.35
GOKEN__________________15.35
GOLDEN HORN____________16.20
GREAT PRETENDER________16.10
GREGORIAN______________16.10
GRIS DE GRIS___________16.05
GUTAIFAN_______________15.30
HAAFHD_________________15.25
HAATEF_________________15.25
HARZAND________________16.10
HAVANA GOLD____________16.10
HEERAAT________________16.10
HELLVELYN______________16.10
HELMET_________________16.20
HIGHLAND REEL__________16.05
HILLSTAR_______________16.10
HOLY ROMAN EMPEROR_____15.25
HONOLULU_______________16.20
HOT STREAK_____________16.00
HUNTER'S LIGHT_________16.05
INDIAN HAVEN___________16.00
INTELLO________________16.05
INTRINSIC______________16.00
INVINCIBLE SPIRIT______15.35
ISFAHAN________________16.20
ITO____________________16.15
IT'S GINO______________16.15
IVANHOWE_______________16.30
IVAWOOD________________16.10
JACK HOBBS_____________16.25
JET AWAY_______________16.15
JEU ST ELOI____________16.35
JOSHUA TREE____________16.10
JUKEBOX JURY___________16.00
KALANISI_______________16.00
KALLISTO_______________16.05
KAMSIN_________________16.00
KAP ROCK_______________16.15
KAPGARDE_______________16.30
KARAKTAR_______________16.10
KAYF TARA______________16.15
KENDARGENT_____________16.00
KHALKEVI_______________15.20
KHELEYF________________16.00
KINGMAN________________16.10
KINGSTON HILL__________16.05
KITKOU_________________16.20
KODI BEAR______________16.05
KODIAC_________________16.05
KONIG TURF_____________16.10
KOROPICK_______________16.00
LAVEROCK_______________16.10
LAW DEPUTY_____________16.10
LAWMAN_________________16.15
LE HAVRE_______________16.10
LETHAL FORCE___________16.10
LIBERTARIAN____________16.30
LINDA'S LAD____________16.10
LITERATO_______________15.25
LOPE DE VEGA___________16.00
LORD DU SUD____________16.10
LORD OF ENGLAND________16.10
LUCAYAN________________16.10
MAGADAN________________16.00
MAJESTIC MISSILE_______16.00
MAKE BELIEVE___________16.10
MALINAS________________16.20
MAMOOL_________________16.00
MANATEE________________16.20
MANDURO________________16.00
MARCEL_________________16.10
MARKAZ_________________16.00
MARTINBOROUGH__________16.00
MASKED MARVEL__________16.20
MASTEROFTHEHORSE_______16.10
MASTERSTROKE___________16.05
MAXIOS_________________16.15
MAYSON_________________16.10
MEHMAS_________________15.30
MESHAHEER______________16.05
MILAN__________________16.10
MILK IT MICK___________16.10
MILLENARY______________16.15
MIZZOU_________________16.20
MONDIALISTE____________16.10
MONTMARTRE_____________16.10
MOOHAAJIM______________15.35
MORANDI________________16.15
MORES WELLS____________16.15
MORPHEUS_______________16.10
MOTIVATOR______________16.05
MOUNTAIN HIGH__________16.20
MUHAARAR_______________16.00
MUHTATHIR______________16.05
MUKHADRAM______________16.15
MUSIC MASTER___________16.00
MY RISK________________16.00
NATHANIEL______________16.15
NATIVE RULER___________16.20
NEATICO________________16.15
NEW APPROACH___________16.20
NEW BAY________________16.00
NICARON________________15.30
NIGHT OF THUNDER_______16.05
NIGHT WISH_____________16.15
NO NAY NEVER___________16.05
NO RISK AT ALL_________16.20
NOM DE D'LA____________16.20
NORSE DANCER___________16.10
OASIS DREAM____________15.35
OLDEN TIMES____________16.10
OLYMPIC GLORY__________15.35
ON EST BIEN____________16.10
ORIENTOR_______________16.00
OUTSTRIP_______________16.05
PALAVICINI_____________16.20
PANIS__________________15.35
PAOLINI________________16.10
PAPAL BULL_____________16.15
PASSING GLANCE_________16.20
PASTORAL PURSUITS______16.00
PASTORIUS______________16.05
PEARL SECRET___________16.00
PENNY'S PICNIC_________16.00
PETHER'S MOON__________16.20
PETILLO________________16.25
PHOENIX REACH__________16.05
PILLAR CORAL___________16.20
PIVOTAL________________16.25
PLANTEUR_______________16.10
POLICY MAKER___________16.10
POMELLATO______________15.30
POSEIDON ADVENTURE_____16.00
POSTPONED______________16.15
POUR MOI_______________15.30
PRINCE FLORI___________16.10
PRINCE GIBRALTAR_______16.20
PRINCE OF LIR__________15.30
PROCONSUL______________16.10
PROFITABLE_____________15.35
PROTECTIONIST__________16.05
RAIL LINK______________16.20
RAJJ___________________16.30
RAJSAMAN_______________16.05
RAVEN'S PASS___________16.15
RECHARGE_______________16.15
RECORDER_______________16.00
RED JAZZ_______________16.05
RELIABLE MAN___________16.05
RIBCHESTER_____________16.05
ROCK OF GIBRALTAR______16.00
RULE OF LAW____________16.20
RULER OF THE WORLD_____15.30
SADDEX_________________16.15
SAGEBURG_______________16.10
SAINT DES SAINTS_______16.15
SAONOIS________________15.20
SCALO__________________16.15
SCHIAPARELLI___________16.30
SCISSOR KICK___________16.10
SCORPION_______________16.20
SEA MOON_______________16.20
SEA THE MOON___________16.05
SEA THE STARS__________16.20
SECRET SINGER__________16.10
SEPTEMBER STORM________16.10
SHAIBAN________________16.10
SHALAA_________________16.05
SHAMARDAL______________16.00
SHANTARAM______________16.20
SHANTOU________________16.00
SHIROCCO_______________16.15
SHOLOKHOV______________16.10
SHOWCASING_____________16.05
SIR PERCY______________16.00
SIXTIES ICON___________16.00
SIYOUNI________________16.10
SLADE POWER____________16.10
SLEEPING INDIAN________16.00
SOLDIER HOLLOW_________15.25
SOLDIER OF FORTUNE_____16.15
SOMMERABEND____________16.05
SORDINO________________16.20
SPANISH MOON___________16.10
STARSPANGLEDBANNER_____16.00
STEELE TANGO___________16.00
STIMULATION____________16.05
STORM THE STARS________16.10
STORMY RIVER___________16.00
STYLE VENDOME__________15.30
SUN CENTRAL____________16.20
SWISS SPIRIT___________16.15
TAGULA_________________16.00
TAI CHI________________16.15
TAMAYUZ________________16.00
TAU CETI_______________16.10
TELESCOPE______________16.20
TEOFILO________________16.20
TERRITORIES____________15.35
THE ANVIL______________16.10
THE GURKHA_____________15.35
THE LAST LION__________15.35
TIGER GROOM____________16.10
TIME TEST______________16.00
TIN HORSE______________16.10
TOP TRIP_______________15.35
TORONADO_______________16.05
TRIPLE THREAT__________16.00
TWILIGHT SON___________16.10
ULTRA__________________16.00
ULYSSES________________16.05
VADAMOS________________16.10
VALIRANN_______________16.15
VERY NICE NAME_________16.05
VICTORY SONG___________16.30
VIF MONSIEUR___________16.10
VOILADENUO_____________16.15
VOL DE NUIT____________16.20
WALDPARK_______________16.10
WALK IN THE PARK_______16.20
WALZERTAKT_____________16.15
WELL CHOSEN____________16.20
WHERE OR WHEN__________16.10
WHIPPER________________16.00
WHITECLIFFSOFDOVER_____16.10
WIESENPFAD_____________15.35
WILSHIRE BOULEVARD_____16.00
WINGS OF EAGLES________16.15
WOOTTON BASSETT________16.05
WORKFORCE______________16.25
WORTHADD_______________16.00
YEATS__________________16.10
YORGUNNABELUCKY________16.10
YOUMZAIN_______________16.00
ZAMBEZI SUN____________16.20
ZANZIBARI______________15.30
ZARAK__________________16.00
ZELZAL_________________15.30
ZOFFANY________________16.00

Order of St George's first foals have been getting fantastic prices for his first sales in both Goffs and Tattersalls sales

tryfix

Zoffany dead at the age of 13. He was euthanised after suffering from Liver Failure.

A real pity to lose this fellow just as he was beginning to see his better bred crops coming on line. 3 G1 winners so far for him with 2 of them being the very classy 2yos Albigna and Thunder Moon. The 3rd Ventura Storm as a close second in the St Leger before taking a G1 12f race in Italy.

Some of his runners seem to stand up to plenty of seasons of running to form, I only mention this in passing because one of first stars the G2 Royal Lodge winning 2yo Foundation went backward soon after that win when he had looked assured for G1 honours. That soured me a bit on him but everything I have seen since had changed my mind about his stock.

Thunder Moon would make a nice replacement for him.



Glenagles' G2 winning son Royal Lytham is retiring to stand at Clongiffin stud. He doesn't seem to be a particularly mouth watering prospect and he's far from cheap at €4,000.

tatoo

TheTorment wrote: »

Order of St George's first foals have been getting fantastic prices for his first sales in both Goffs and Tattersalls sales

What was the last Ascot Gold Cup winner that made into a good sire?

tatoo

tatoo wrote: »

What was the last Ascot Gold Cup winner that made into a good sire?

Kayf Tara, Yeats, Fame and Glory, Westerner off the top of my head.

All are quite decent sires

The Mig

tatoo wrote: »

What was the last Ascot Gold Cup winner that made into a good sire?

Yeats and Westerner(I know it wasn't Ascot) have done well I'd say. Kayf Tara too. Fame and Glory could've gotten better if he stayed alive

The Mig

The Mig wrote: »

Yeats and Westerner(I know it wasn't Ascot) have done well I'd say. Kayf Tara too. Fame and Glory could've gotten better if he stayed alive

Fools seldomn differ Mig :pac:

tatoo

TheTorment wrote: »

Kayf Tara, Yeats, Fame and Glory, Westerner off the top of my head.

All are quite decent sires

Kayf Tara a top sire definitely, but he won his Gold Cup over twenty years ago.
Westerner was outstayed in his one of his Gold Cup attempts but is a good sire,
Yeats is not a good sire in my book, while the jury is out on the F&Gs.

I might be a bit pedantic in this part, but Westerner won a Gold Cup , the Ascot Gold Cup.....but it was run at York.

Robson99

tatoo wrote: »

Kayf Tara a top sire definitely, but he won his Gold Cup over twenty years ago.
Westerner was outstayed in his one of his Gold Cup attempts but is a good sire,
Yeats is not a good sire in my book, while the jury is out on the F&Gs.

I might be a bit pedantic in this part, but Westerner won a Gold Cup , the Ascot Gold Cup.....but it was run at York.

Thought Yeats is pretty decent.

The Tetrarch

Looking at my database (not updated since 2015) there are Group races

England 151
France 116
Germany 45
Ireland 67
Italy 48
USA* 112 (*Grade 1 only)

Total 539

Pointing out that winners of 1 race out of 549 races did not make it into the top 10 (or top 20) sires list - you are on a winner.

tatoo

The Tetrarch wrote: »

Looking at my database (not updated since 2015) there are Group races

England 151
France 116
Germany 45
Ireland 67
Italy 48
USA* 112 (*Grade 1 only)

Total 539

Pointing out that winners of 1 race out of 549 races did not make it into the top 10 (or top 20) sires list - you are on a winner.

Yes, but the Ascot Gold Cup at 2m 4f is run at the extreme distance and rarely attracts the better horses from the lower distances any more, does 2 1/2mile flat winner bring any of the precocity and pace thats now needed for the NH these days, therefore imo opinion as an outlier it is valid to examine its suitability as a stallion maker.

The Tetrarch

^
For the past month I have been going through twenty years of Turform annuals 1998 to 2007.
The idea that NH horses have flat pace made me laugh.
Every time I see a flat rating of a famous NH horse in the annuals they are very mediocre (many Cheltenham festival hurdle winners).
Kevin Blake in his attheraces blog noted that recent NH horses are much slower than past NH horses (i.e. slower than the horses I say were slow).

The Tetrarch

Dire state of the hurdling divisions needs to be addressed
https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/kevin-blake/30-November-2020/dire-state-of-the-hurdling-divisions-needs-to-be-addressed

tatoo

The Tetrarch wrote: »

^
For the past month I have been going through twenty years of Turform annuals 1998 to 2007.
The idea that NH horses have flat pace made me laugh.
Every time I see a flat rating of a famous NH horse in the annuals they are very mediocre (many Cheltenham festival hurdle winners).
Kevin Blake in his attheraces blog noted that recent NH horses are much slower than past NH horses (i.e. slower than the horses I say were slow).

The Champion National Hunt sires since 1979 are as follows,

Deep Run 79-93 , best performances 1st Beresford S ( 1 mile ) 2nd Irish St Leger ( 1m6f )
Strong Gale 93-99, 1st Prix Prince Rose ( 1m4f ) 2nd 2000 Guineas (1mile)
Be My Native 99-2004, 1st Coronation Cup ( 1m4f )
Supreme Leader 04-06, placed in the 2000 Guineas and Derby ( 1mile & 1m4f)
Presenting 06-07 , 1st Geoffrey Freer s ( 1m5f) , 3rd Derby (1m4f)
Old Vic 07-08 , 1st Irish Derby, 1ST French Derby ( 1m4f)
Presenting 08-11
King's Theatre 11-12, 1st King George ( 1m4f)
Beneficial 12-13, 1st King Edward VII ( 1m4f )
King's Theatre 13-17
Flemensfirth 17-19, 1ST Prix Lupin ( 1m2f) 1st Premio Roma (1m2f)
Milan 19-20 1st St Leger (1m 6f )

Not a cup horse amongst them, and bear in mind that the NH champion sires usually filled the runners up and 3rd/4th place spots in the years they weren't champion.

The Tetrarch

Cup horses and Ascot Gold Cup horses are almost never the offspring of winners of those races.
Ascot Gold Cup winners do not produce winners of that race, and are unlikely to be competitive with the 12f sires that produced them and other winners.

A sire that won at 20f is too far away from the average UK race distance of 9.5f.
In 1999 in Ireland the longest flat race was 17f 87 yds, with only 33 flat races beyond 14f, and 3 horses won 9 of those 33 long distance flat races.


From 1988 onwards the Ascot Gold Cup winners were sired by these.

Shirley Heights
Ela-Mana-Mou
Salse
Mtoto
Sadler's Wells
Kahyasi
Sadler's Wells
Robellino
Robellino
Desert King
Singspiel
Danehill
Sadler's Wells x 4
Giant's Causeway
Montjeu
Rainbow Quest
Monsun
Montjeu
Champs Elysees
Galileo
Duke Of Marmalade
Sea The Stars x 3

The Tetrarch

Another point to consider is the stamina needed for NH racing.
Because the distances are longer does not automatically mean a horse needs more stamina. The pace is slower.

When Nick Mordin examined this he believed that in hurdles races the time in the air over the hurdle gives the horse a break (he is not running in the air).

Putting up a list of NH champion sires is not informative.
In the main the list is of horses placed in English and Irish classics.
The winners of the classics went to stud at high fees, or were sold to Japan for big money.
NH breeders could not afford Sadler's Wells, Montjeu, Galileo, Frankel, Dubawi and other top flat sires.
That is why you do not see those sires topping the NH sires championship - too expensive.
Occasionally you do get a top NH runner sired by a top flat sire.
Istabrag in one (rated only 88 on the flat, two wins on the flat from 11 starts, 4k and 7k races).
Almost always when uncompetitive on the flat they are tried over hurdles.

tatoo

I think you're helping to make my point for me, the cup horses aren't wanted, or needed, as flat stallions, so invariably end up in the national hunt covering sheds.......where since 1979 none have been a champion sire, or runner-up.

The Tetrarch

tatoo wrote: »

I think you're helping to make my point for me, the cup horses aren't wanted, or needed, as flat stallions, so invariably end up in the national hunt covering sheds.......where since 1979 none have been a champion sire, or runner-up.

You made the assertion that Ascot Gold Cup winners do not make good sires.
You mention the top 10 NH sires.

When you consider that perhaps there are 200+ winners of Group flat races each year the chance of any one of those becoming a top sire is slim.
In ten years that is about 2,000 Group flat winners.
There is competition for places at stud. Reaching the top sire rankings requires ability, support from the stud with mares, advertising, and luck.


Here are the 24 horses that won the 33 Ascot Gold Cup races from 1988 to 2020: 7 geldings; 3 fillies; 14 colts

ARCADIAN HEIGHTS ..... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
ASHAL ........................ M ... In the book A Century Of Champions he was rated the worst Gold Cup winner in the 20th century. No record of him as a stallion.
BIG ORANGE ................G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
CELERIC ......................G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
CLASSIC CLICHE .......... M ... Sired the winner of the Group 1 Falmouth Stakes.
COLOUR VISION .......... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
DOUBLE TRIGGER ........ M ... Not a stud success.
DRUM TAPS ................. M ... Went to stud in Japan.
ENZELI ....................... M ... Sold to Australia as a 5yo.
ESTIMATE ................... F ... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
FAME AND GLORY ........ M ... Raced as a 6yo in 2012. Died at stud in February 2017. Four seasons at stud 2013 to 2016.
INDIAN QUEEN .............F ... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
KAYF TARA .................. M ... Wiki - he has had considerable success at stud: Planet Of Sound; Blaklion; Thistlecrack; Tea For Two; Carruthers.
LEADING LIGHT ............ M ... First foals 2015.
MR DINOS .................... M ... Minor winners.
ORDER OF ST GEORGE ... M ... To stud in 2019.
PAPINEAU ..................... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
RITE OF PASSAGE .......... F .... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
ROYAL REBEL ................ G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
SADEEM ....................... M ... Retired to stud but had fertility problems and sired few foals. Sent back into training with Martin Pipe but never ran again.
STRADIVARIUS ...............M ... Still an active racehorse.
TRIP TO PARIS ............... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
WESTERNER .................. M ... Very successful sire. On pedigreequery.com 20 of his offspring earned 100k+
YEATS ...........................M ... A successful sire. Figuero 564k; Capivari 530k; Shattered Love 320k; Tudor City 302k; Montaly 267k; De Rasher Counter 194k

Of the 14 entire male winners
2 were stud failures
2 were exported (Japan; Australia)
1 died after four seasons at stud
1 had fertility problem and went back into training
1 sired a flat Group 1 winner
1 had only minor winners
3 had considerable success at stud
2 have only recently gone to stud
1 is still in training


I made these comments about "why are English Derby winners not successful at stud" on another forum where I post.
The poster wanted the English Derby reduced from 12f to 10f.
There are over 500 sires at stud in IRE, GB, FR (I keep a file).

The chance of the winners of a Group race
1) becoming a sire are slim
2) remaining a sire are slim
3) being ranked in the top 10 are infinitesimal

A reason Derby winners do not do well at stud (and Arc winners) is the Japanese buy a high percentage of them, and they do badly in Japan.
The leading sires list will always be a mix of talents:
2020 English sires (1) Galileo [English Derby+] (2) Dubawi [Irish 2000] (3) Dark Angel [Middle Park Gr 1 6f] (4) Kodiac [sprint handicapper] (5) Pivotal [sprinter Gr 1 5f] (6) Sea The Stars [English Derby+] (7) Invincible Spirit [sprinter Gr1 6f] (8.) Lope de Vega [Jockey Club 10.5f] (9) Kingman [Irish 2000+] (10) Frankel [English 2000+].
2 x English Derby; 2 x Irish 2000; 1 x Jockey Club; 1 x English 2000; 3 x sprinter Gr1; 1 x sprint handicapper = 10.
Reducing the English Derby in distance you end up with more short distance sires, which as you can see from the 2020 rankings, is already full of 5f, 6f, 8f sires (7 of 10).



My comments on the Champion National Hunt sires since 1979 are
Deep Run: 2nd in the 1969 Irish St Leger beaten 6 lengths by Reindeer, who had earlier been 6th in the English St Leger.
Top of the 1969 International ratings was the Ascot Gold cup winner, Levmoss with 9-5. Reindeer with 8-5, and Deep Run not listed.
Strong Gale: The Irish Free Handicap had Shirley Heights on 92, with Strong Gale in joint 14th place on 80.
Shirley Heights won the English and Irish Derbys. Strong Gale was 2nd in the Irish 2000 Guineas to Jaazeiro, and 5th in the Irish Derby btn 7 lengths.
Supreme Leader: "placed in the Derby" Do you mean 4th in the English Derby to Slip Anchor beaten 13+ lengths?
Old Vic: a very good horse, but missed the English Derby and a chance to take on Nashwan.
King's Theatre: 13th in the 2000 Guineas, 2nd in the Derby
Beneficial: rated 120. One Gr2; one Gr3; one Listed.
Flemensfirth: rated 120.
Milan: Rated 128. Ran in Galileo's year.

The only two close to top class on the racecourse were Old Vic and Milan.
Another point to make is it unlikely that any of these top NH sires will be an influence on the thoroughbred breed.
Their male offspring are almost always gelded.
In the case of Deep Run, he has 460 great-grandchildren, 2 through his sons, and 458 through his daughters (my data).[2;458], Strong Gale [0;177]; Supreme Leader [0;23]; Old Vic [0;169].

tatoo

" geldings don't do well as sires "
" fillies don't do we as sires "

Good man.

tatoo

The Tetrarch wrote: »

You made the assertion that Ascot Gold Cup winners do not make good sires.
You mention the top 10 NH sires.

When you consider that perhaps there are 200+ winners of Group flat races each year the chance of any one of those becoming a top sire is slim.
In ten years that is about 2,000 Group flat winners.
There is competition for places at stud. Reaching the top sire rankings requires ability, support from the stud with mares, advertising, and luck.


Here are the 24 horses that won the 33 Ascot Gold Cup races from 1988 to 2020: 7 geldings; 3 fillies; 14 colts

ARCADIAN HEIGHTS ..... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
ASHAL ........................ M ... In the book A Century Of Champions he was rated the worst Gold Cup winner in the 20th century. No record of him as a stallion.
BIG ORANGE ................G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
CELERIC ......................G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
CLASSIC CLICHE .......... M ... Sired the winner of the Group 1 Falmouth Stakes.
COLOUR VISION .......... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
DOUBLE TRIGGER ........ M ... Not a stud success.
DRUM TAPS ................. M ... Went to stud in Japan.
ENZELI ....................... M ... Sold to Australia as a 5yo.
ESTIMATE ................... F ... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
FAME AND GLORY ........ M ... Raced as a 6yo in 2012. Died at stud in February 2017. Four seasons at stud 2013 to 2016.
INDIAN QUEEN .............F ... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
KAYF TARA .................. M ... Wiki - he has had considerable success at stud: Planet Of Sound; Blaklion; Thistlecrack; Tea For Two; Carruthers.
LEADING LIGHT ............ M ... First foals 2015.
MR DINOS .................... M ... Minor winners.
ORDER OF ST GEORGE ... M ... To stud in 2019.
PAPINEAU ..................... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
RITE OF PASSAGE .......... F .... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
ROYAL REBEL ................ G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
SADEEM ....................... M ... Retired to stud but had fertility problems and sired few foals. Sent back into training with Martin Pipe but never ran again.
STRADIVARIUS ...............M ... Still an active racehorse.
TRIP TO PARIS ............... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
WESTERNER .................. M ... Very successful sire. On pedigreequery.com 20 of his offspring earned 100k+
YEATS ...........................M ... A successful sire. Figuero 564k; Capivari 530k; Shattered Love 320k; Tudor City 302k; Montaly 267k; De Rasher Counter 194k

Of the 14 entire male winners
2 were stud failures
2 were exported (Japan; Australia)
1 died after four seasons at stud
1 had fertility problem and went back into training
1 sired a flat Group 1 winner
1 had only minor winners
3 had considerable success at stud
2 have only recently gone to stud
1 is still in training


I made these comments about "why are English Derby winners not successful at stud" on another forum where I post.
The poster wanted the English Derby reduced from 12f to 10f.
There are over 500 sires at stud in IRE, GB, FR (I keep a file).

The chance of the winners of a Group race
1) becoming a sire are slim
2) remaining a sire are slim
3) being ranked in the top 10 are infinitesimal

A reason Derby winners do not do well at stud (and Arc winners) is the Japanese buy a high percentage of them, and they do badly in Japan.
The leading sires list will always be a mix of talents:
2020 English sires (1) Galileo [English Derby+] (2) Dubawi [Irish 2000] (3) Dark Angel [Middle Park Gr 1 6f] (4) Kodiac [sprint handicapper] (5) Pivotal [sprinter Gr 1 5f] (6) Sea The Stars [English Derby+] (7) Invincible Spirit [sprinter Gr1 6f] (8.) Lope de Vega [Jockey Club 10.5f] (9) Kingman [Irish 2000+] (10) Frankel [English 2000+].
2 x English Derby; 2 x Irish 2000; 1 x Jockey Club; 1 x English 2000; 3 x sprinter Gr1; 1 x sprint handicapper = 10.
Reducing the English Derby in distance you end up with more short distance sires, which as you can see from the 2020 rankings, is already full of 5f, 6f, 8f sires (7 of 10).



My comments on the Champion National Hunt sires since 1979 are
Deep Run: 2nd in the 1969 Irish St Leger beaten 6 lengths by Reindeer, who had earlier been 6th in the English St Leger.
Top of the 1969 International ratings was the Ascot Gold cup winner, Levmoss with 9-5. Reindeer with 8-5, and Deep Run not listed.
Strong Gale: The Irish Free Handicap had Shirley Heights on 92, with Strong Gale in joint 14th place on 80.
Shirley Heights won the English and Irish Derbys. Strong Gale was 2nd in the Irish 2000 Guineas to Jaazeiro, and 5th in the Irish Derby btn 7 lengths.
Supreme Leader: "placed in the Derby" Do you mean 4th in the English Derby to Slip Anchor beaten 13+ lengths?
Old Vic: a very good horse, but missed the English Derby and a chance to take on Nashwan.
King's Theatre: 13th in the 2000 Guineas, 2nd in the Derby
Beneficial: rated 120. One Gr2; one Gr3; one Listed.
Flemensfirth: rated 120.
Milan: Rated 128. Ran in Galileo's year.

The only two close to top class on the racecourse were Old Vic and Milan.
Another point to make is it unlikely that any of these top NH sires will be an influence on the thoroughbred breed.
Their male offspring are almost always gelded.
In the case of Deep Run, he has 460 great-grandchildren, 2 through his sons, and 458 through his daughters (my data).[2;458], Strong Gale [0;177]; Supreme Leader [0;23]; Old Vic [0;169].

Interesting that you chose 1988 as the start of your list.

Maybe you might like to include the previous decade, as there are so many geldings now contesting, and winning, the Ascot Gold Cup ( surely an indicator in itself to the race's worthiness as a selector for potential sires ), the previous decade would give quite a bit of evidence as the the ten Ascot Gold Cups were won by seven different entires Shangamuzo, Ardross, Le Moss, Little Wolf, Longboat , Gildoran and Paean......all of whom went to stud, the first named to Brazil, and none of whom could be considered remotely successful,.

tatoo

tatoo wrote: »

" geldings don't do well as sires "
" fillies don't do we as sires "

Good man.

I thought it was funny!

Robson99

Some of the best french NH stallions have won over hurdles and fences.

The Tetrarch

Robson99 wrote: »

Some of the best french NH stallions have won over hurdles and fences.

I think gelding is often done for the convenience of the trainer.
My choice would be to not geld hurdlers until you know everything about their ability, then only geld the failures.

tatoo

Robson99 wrote: »

Some of the best french NH stallions have won over hurdles and fences.

Very true, but from watching flat recruits to jumping over the years it seems that 1m2f horses on the flat are most ideally suited to 2miles over hurdles.
Where does that leave the horse that needed 2 and 1/2 miles on the flat?

The Tetrarch

For many years I bought the Sporting Life Weekender (later the Racing Post Weekender) to get the systems articles by Nick Mordin.
January 8, 1994, had an article "Jumps sires in a new light".

"Deep Run has for many years now been accorded the status of Champion National Hunt sire.
However, when you look at his overall wins-to-wins ratio rather than his quantity of winners, a startling fact emerges:
his prominance in the statistics is largely the produce of a massive quantity of runners.
His progeny have run an amazing 3,940 times over the last six seasons for their 525 wins (13.32 per cent wins-to runs)."

He didn't finish in the top twenty in % wins to runs (20th was 14.71%).

There are five top 20 charts in the article:
Top 20 NH sires 1987-1993;
Top 20 sires of hurdle winners;
Top 20 sires of steeplechase winners;
Top 20 sires of NH winners on yielding or softer ground;
Top 20 sires of winners on good or faster ground.

I picked out a few interesting points:

NH soft ground % win rank
Rank .... Sire .............Runs ..... Wins ..... % .......... Profit
1..........Niniski.............178........33.........18.54 ..... +37.47
2 ........ Ardross ...........212........ 35 ...... 16.51 ..... +85.74
14 ...... The Parson ...... 1003....134....... 13.36 ..... -357.63
15 ....... Crash Course ....516 ..... 68 ....... 13.18 .... -165.00
17 ........Deep Run ........1823.....227 ........12.45 .....-557.88

Top 20 steeplechase winners
1..........Be My Native.... 61........20.........32.79 ..... +13.42
8 ........ Ardross ...........105....... 22 ...... 20.95 ..... +67.82
13 ...... Strong Gale ..... 1285....242....... 18.83 ..... -102.59

tatoo

Wins to runs while it is a useful metric doesn't tell the full story, what set Deep Run aside was his ability to produce top horse after top horse, relentlessly, he got so many household names....Golden Cygnet, Dawn Run, Morley Street, Daring Run, Deep Sensation, Ekbalco, Waterloo Boy, Golden Friend, Cahervillahow, Granville Again, Fifty Dollars More, he was a super sire, they're keeping sons of the likes of Martaline, Robin des Champs and Kings Theatre as entires in the last few years , it's a pity the same wasn't done with a useful son of Deep Run.

Panrich

tatoo wrote: »

Wins to runs while it is a useful metric doesn't tell the full story, what set Deep Run aside was his ability to produce top horse after top horse, relentlessly, he got so many household names....Golden Cygnet, Dawn Run, Morley Street, Daring Run, Deep Sensation, Ekbalco, Waterloo Boy, Golden Friend, Cahervillahow, Granville Again, Fifty Dollars More, he was a super sire, they're keeping sons of the likes of Martaline, Robin des Champs and Kings Theatre as entires in the last few years , it's a pity the same wasn't done with a useful son of Deep Run.

It was also an era where covering was a lot less scientific where every farmer/ small breeder with a mare wanted to go to a good stallion no matter how poorly bred she was and they were a lot more affordable back then. So Deep Run would have covered a lot of poor mares in the hope that the offspring would be the next Golden Cygnet.

tryfix

Stowaway (GB) 1994 Slip Anchor On Credit No Pass No Sale 220 681 59 87 26.82 8 9
£1,140,505
2
Flemensfirth (USA) 1992 Alleged Etheldreda Diesis 216 625 68 90 31.48 8 10
£1,129,479
3
Yeats (IRE) 2001 Sadler's Wells Lyndonville Top Ville 237 769 59 87 24.89 4 5
£1,004,960
4
Shantou (USA) 1993 Alleged Shaima Shareef Dancer 142 461 46 65 32.39 6 8
£896,058
5
Getaway (GER) 2003 Monsun Guernica Unfuwain 289 884 73 89 25.26 1 1
£823,589
6
Presenting (GB) 1992 Mtoto D'Azy Persian Bold 207 639 54 70 26.09 4 4
£808,213
7
Oscar (IRE) 1994 Sadler's Wells Snow Day Reliance II 187 557 41 55 21.93 3 3
£770,285
8
Jeremy (USA) 2003 Danehill Dancer Glint In Her Eye Arazi 139 494 49 67 35.25 6 7
£731,070
9
Beneficial (GB) 1990 Top Ville Youthful Green Dancer 119 446 35 48 29.41 5 5
£728,183
10
Westerner (GB) 1999 Danehill Walensee Troy 160 514 44 57 27.5 2 3
£684,594
11
Mahler (GB) 2004 Galileo Rainbow Goddess Rainbow Quest 200 631 50 63 25 3 4
£674,555
12
Milan (GB) 1998



That's the current season's top dozen NH sires.

There are 2 Ascot Gold Cup winners in it, both had top class G1 12f form with Westerner being placed in an Arc and Yeats winning a Coronation Cup.

Bar Jeremy the rest are typical 12f -14f or 10-12f G2, G1 horses with several St Leger winners and placed horses in there.

Milan and Shantou were good enough to win their St Legers.

Stowaway beat his year's St Leger winner over 12f but never tried further than 12f despite having bags of stamina in his pedigree.

Mahler placed 2nd in his St Leger and won the 2mile Queens Vase as 3yo.

Presenting won the G2 Geoffrey Freer stakes over 1m 5 1/2f

Beneficial won the G2 King Edward stakes over 12f and mostly ran over 10f.

Oscar only ran 4 times, his last run being a very fine 2nd to Peintre Celebre in the 12f French Derby

Flemensfirth ran a close up and hampered 5th in a top class 12f French Derby behind Celtic Swing. He was kept to 10f after that.

Jeremy is the odd one out having never run over more than a mile, he was G1 class at a mile and would have got further but he was too fast for the rest of this list.



Going by precedent winning the Ascot Gold Cup makes Order of St George and Stradivarius likely to succeed as NH stallions.

The Tetrarch

I have 316 offspring of Deep Run in my data. 306 are fillies; 9 are geldings; 1 is a colt.
The colt is Deep Society, unraced, and sire of 22 runners on pedigreequery.com.
My database is largely flat runners and flat breeding.

In my ratings database Deep Run has 133 horses.
103 are unrated (the majority of these fillies used for breeding and probably unraced); 17 were unraced.
The Deep Run rated runners were rated 19;79;78;80;67;109;72;47;31;71;64;86;40 on the flat (average 64.8).
The average flat rating of all the rated runners (152,095) in my data is 77.9.

Morley Street (by Deep Run) was rated 96 OR and 109 RPR on the flat.
In 1991 he won the Champion Hurdle (NH Grade 1), next race won the Aintree Hurdle (NH Grade 1), then 4th of 7 in a Listed flat race btn 36l, next 2nd of 8 btn shd in a flat Group 3, followed by a win by 10l in the Breeders Cup Chase, and a win in the Ascot Hurdle (Grade 2).

The only NH horse I remember who won a good race on the flat was Alderbrook (Group 2 Prix Dollar).
Sea Pigeon won two Champion Hurdles and three major flat handicaps but no flat Group races as far as I know. He was 7th in the Derby.
Istabraq won three Champion Hurdles. His best flat rating was OR 87, and he had two class D flat wins in 11 flat starts.
Magical Lady, 2nd (DSQ) in the 1996 Triumph Hurdle (29 runners) was rated 60 on the flat (OR 53, RPR 78). (She was disqualified for bad interference near the finish.)

My aim is not to criticise jumps runners but to point out the gulf in class between good (and very expensive) flat sires and the top NH sires.
The reason Deep Run or other NH sires do not produce good son sires is progeny of NH sires are uncompetitive on the flat.
NH breeders will not use slow horses as sires.
They use the best flat runners available, and they are those that do not reach the top rank as flat runners and sires.

Robson99

tryfix wrote: »

Going by precedent winning the Ascot Gold Cup makes Order of St George and Stradivarius likely to succeed as NH stallions.

Good chance for OOSG but I don't think Stradivarius will as he is only a pony. Westerner and Yeats I know are not big horses either but Stradivarius looks small compared to them.
P2P boys don't want small horses and this is reflected at the sales.
Another factor we have in this country compared to France is that a lot of our mares are predominately stamina and the offspring from GC stallions or 2m + stallions inevitably end up slow horses. The French seem to have speedier type of mares and are more selective with the type of mare they cover. Here there are a lot of poor slow mares or unraced mares with a slow pedigree covered with slow stallions.

I think the likes of Jeremy, ( big loss) Jet Away, Maxios, Vadamos, Poets Word to name a few ( basically 1m -1m2f winners )are important to NH breeding going forward as the should inject a bit of speed back into pedigrees.
Nothing scientific to the above

tryfix

Robson99 wrote: »

Good chance for OOSG but I don't think Stradivarius will as he is only a pony. Westerner and Yeats I know are not big horses either but Stradivarius looks small compared to them.
P2P boys don't want small horses and this is reflected at the sales.
Another factor we have in this country compared to France is that a lot of our mares are predominately stamina and the offspring from GC stallions or 2m + stallions inevitably end up slow horses. The French seem to have speedier type of mares and are more selective with the type of mare they cover. Here there are a lot of poor slow mares or unraced mares with a slow pedigree covered with slow stallions.

I think the likes of Jeremy, ( big loss) Jet Away, Maxios, Vadamos, Poets Word to name a few ( basically 1m -1m2f winners )are important to NH breeding going forward as the should inject a bit of speed back into pedigrees.
Nothing scientific to the above

That's a very good point about Stradivarius, I had been thinking that his superstar reputation would have seen him being well supported as a NH stallion but there's no getting away from his size.

What kind of stud career could be have?

tatoo

tryfix wrote: »

Stowaway (GB) 1994 Slip Anchor On Credit No Pass No Sale 220 681 59 87 26.82 8 9
£1,140,505
2
Flemensfirth (USA) 1992 Alleged Etheldreda Diesis 216 625 68 90 31.48 8 10
£1,129,479
3
Yeats (IRE) 2001 Sadler's Wells Lyndonville Top Ville 237 769 59 87 24.89 4 5
£1,004,960
4
Shantou (USA) 1993 Alleged Shaima Shareef Dancer 142 461 46 65 32.39 6 8
£896,058
5
Getaway (GER) 2003 Monsun Guernica Unfuwain 289 884 73 89 25.26 1 1
£823,589
6
Presenting (GB) 1992 Mtoto D'Azy Persian Bold 207 639 54 70 26.09 4 4
£808,213
7
Oscar (IRE) 1994 Sadler's Wells Snow Day Reliance II 187 557 41 55 21.93 3 3
£770,285
8
Jeremy (USA) 2003 Danehill Dancer Glint In Her Eye Arazi 139 494 49 67 35.25 6 7
£731,070
9
Beneficial (GB) 1990 Top Ville Youthful Green Dancer 119 446 35 48 29.41 5 5
£728,183
10
Westerner (GB) 1999 Danehill Walensee Troy 160 514 44 57 27.5 2 3
£684,594
11
Mahler (GB) 2004 Galileo Rainbow Goddess Rainbow Quest 200 631 50 63 25 3 4
£674,555
12
Milan (GB) 1998



That's the current season's top dozen NH sires.

There are 2 Ascot Gold Cup winners in it, both had top class G1 12f form with Westerner being placed in an Arc and Yeats winning a Coronation Cup.

Bar Jeremy the rest are typical 12f -14f or 10-12f G2, G1 horses with several St Leger winners and placed horses in there.

Milan and Shantou were good enough to win their St Legers.

Stowaway beat his year's St Leger winner over 12f but never tried further than 12f despite having bags of stamina in his pedigree.

Mahler placed 2nd in his St Leger and won the 2mile Queens Vase as 3yo.

Presenting won the G2 Geoffrey Freer stakes over 1m 5 1/2f

Beneficial won the G2 King Edward stakes over 12f and mostly ran over 10f.

Oscar only ran 4 times, his last run being a very fine 2nd to Peintre Celebre in the 12f French Derby

Flemensfirth ran a close up and hampered 5th in a top class 12f French Derby behind Celtic Swing. He was kept to 10f after that.

Jeremy is the odd one out having never run over more than a mile, he was G1 class at a mile and would have got further but he was too fast for the rest of this list.



Going by precedent winning the Ascot Gold Cup makes Order of St George and Stradivarius likely to succeed as NH stallions.

I dont think we can necessarily draw that conclusion, going by your own classification of success 3 out of the last 14 entires to win the Ascot Gold Cup were successful, if you add the previous ten years then it throws up seven more entires of which zero could have been considered successful , so that works out at 3 successful out of the last 21 Gold Cup winning stallions, hardly a statistic that could merit the drawing of your conclusion that the two you name are likely to be successful.
I would consider Yeats to be only moderately successful, when you consider that he was the greatest Gold Cup winner of modern times, and got a very good chance at stud , even getting a stint at Coolmore itself and having NH stock well supported by their top brass.
It could also be argued that much , or at the very least some of Westerners success, is attributable to he being a son of Danehill, a very workable outcross with the multitude of Sadler's Wells granddaughters that are around.
Now on Order of St George , I think he stands a good chance of making it, he is a big strong horse, 16.2 + and has got fine big strong foals, that have sold well and gone to the right people and that will be very much in his favour, he is bound to be very popular as a result this Spring, we will have to wait then for the acid test of the racecourse.

tryfix

tatoo wrote: »

I dont think we can necessarily draw that conclusion, going by your own classification of success 3 out of the last 14 entires to win the Ascot Gold Cup were successful, if you add the previous ten years then it throws up seven more entires of which zero could have been considered successful , so that works out at 3 successful out of the last 21 Gold Cup winning stallions, hardly a statistic that could merit the drawing of your conclusion that the two you name are likely to be successful.
I would consider Yeats to be only moderately successful, when you consider that he was the greatest Gold Cup winner of modern times, and got a very good chance at stud , even getting a stint at Coolmore itself and having NH stock well supported by their top brass.
It could also be argued that much , or at the very least some of Westerners success, is attributable to he being a son of Danehill, a very workable outcross with the multitude of Sadler's Wells granddaughters that are around.
Now on Order of St George , I think he stands a good chance of making it, he is a big strong horse, 16.2 + and has got fine big strong foals, that have sold well and gone to the right people and that will be very much in his favour, he is bound to be very popular as a result this Spring, we will have to wait then for the acid test of the racecourse.

I think we'd need a bit of a NH breeding expert to help us define success as a NH stallion. I'll admit to be being far out of my depth when it comes to NH stallions. Moderately successful is alright.

What criteria are you using to define success or failure? For instance Fame and Glory's first crop have only turned 7 and his stats are good yet you have him pinned as a relative failure when I don't think many others would agree with that judgement of him.

tryfix

Pivotal retired at 28. An absolute dream of a stallion, more than a little underused with his highest ever fee being £85k for just 2 seasons but about half that for most of most of his life and he started at just £6,000.

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/bloodstock-latest/end-of-an-era-as-cheveley-park-stud-calls-time-on-pivotals-stallion-career/473619

The Tetrarch

I have 167 horses rated 100+ by Pivotal in my data and I am sure there are many more.

tryfix

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I have 167 horses rated 100+ by Pivotal in my data and I am sure there are many more.

Such a good broodmare sire too without the kind of conveyor belt of bluebloods that the likes of Galileo, Dubawi and now Kingman and Frankel get.

His greatness suffered from being at one of the smaller studs. What he could have done with the books of mares that Frankel gets and he'd have passed on mental soundness whereas Frankel will pass on mental weakness.

Mad about baa baas

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I have 167 horses rated 100+ by Pivotal in my data and I am sure there are many more.

His biggest issue I'd say was that while he sired great race horses they were not always sales horses.. majority were pigeon toed and needed a lot of farrier work and often screws to make them saleable