Ireland vs England Sat Aug 27th Aviva Stadium*mod warning post 910*

LuckyLloyd

Quint2010 wrote: »

What todays performance brought home to me, apart from a bout of depression, was that Ireland are simply too small physically to compete at the highest level. Today England dwarfed us all over the park-we were absolutely milled in the collision area. The likes of Flannery, D'Arcy, ROG, Earls, Healy, were all dwarfed by their opposite numbers. It was particularly noticable in the midfield area-and the bad news is that we have Paddy Wallace who has to be the smallest 12 playing international rugby as backup. It begs the question-why wasnt James Downey even looked at? Its very poor form and judgement by Kidney that our midfield options are so physically weak. D'Arcy I am sorry to say offers us nothing going forward anymore. And Earls is simply not a centre. Play him on the wing or at FB but not centre.

.ak wrote: »

Spot on. That's the one thing I really noticed today.. and to a lesser extent against the french... The backs in the modern game are starting to bulk up. That 'Jonah' style is definitely back in force, and has been for a few years. Infact, the only reason our midfield was good (when it was good) was because BOD and Darce had bulked up compared to other midfield players in test rugby... but now they've been overtaken and dwarfed.

These are terrible overreactions. We beat England up physically on the same pitch five months ago. The issues behind today's defeat were not to do with size or physicality. Rather a question of fitness and form.

sting60

Maybe im wrong maybe this is cute whorism christ I hope im right.Kidney could be a genius and they are taking the mick,maybe.

MrDerp

sting60 wrote: »

Maybe im wrong maybe this is cute whorism christ I hope im right.Kidney could be a genius and they are taking the mick,maybe.

Loving the dirty hope sting, by the time I wake tomorrow I'll have convinced myself of the genius masterplan.

crisco10

Hear Healy damaged his eye socket, did anyone see what happened?

Podge_irl

No I'm not going

My considered opinion about Ireland after watching that game is that - we're just a bit ****.

Piliger

Yes I'm going

MrDerp wrote: »

It was rubbish. I thought about it for the last 5 minutes of the match and came to the conclusion that booing was more constructive than earnest applause.

I agree 100%. This is professional sports and if the team want to be rewarded for winning and cheered for winning then they need to face up to getting booed when they deserve it !

Tomtom364

Yes I'm going

The only thing that entiles any spectator to boo is bad sportsmanship such as dangerous/off the ball hits, pro fouls etc or terrible reffing.

If the players are playing badly on either team then either suck it up or stop attending matches.

Booing your own team for their preformance is disgusting. By all means stop going to matches if you dont think you are getting value for your money.
Supporting your Country is not about simply paying a bit of money for entertainment. Its about love for the game and pride in your country. Booing will get you nowhere. If anything it will send you backwards.

The way to lift the Irish team is to rally round them and support them, not boo them off the pitch.

totallegend

MrDerp wrote: »

I don't agree. I spend a lot of money on supporting Ireland. Don't get me wrong, I was formerly in agreement with you.

Today was a watershed for me.

There's your solution so, don't go in future.

justsomebloke

Yes I'm going

Ok was away yesterday so only catching up now so

**there was already a warning to attack the post not the poster any more of this will be a straight ban this covers all the other crap aswell**

BarackPyjama

England Win

Tomtom364 wrote: »

If the players are playing badly on either team then either suck it up or stop attending matches.

Booing your own team for their preformance is disgusting.

The French do it. The Kiwis do it. Who are you to say what's "disgusting" or unacceptable in fairness? These guys are professional athletes and being paid quite handsomely. Some earning millions per year between salary and endorsements. You think we should treat them with kid gloves after paying top dollar for a ticket and they put in the kind of performance we saw yesterday? Or the week before?

If the players don't deserve to be booed off the pitch then the management team probably do. It's up to the players to sound up and let the supporters know that they're being mismanaged.

We need an open, honest and transparent management team. Declan Kidney's cryptic nonsense shows a considerable lack of respect and disregard for an increasingly knowledgeable rugby fan base in this country. Either he's covering up the fact that he doesn't really know how to coach a team... or he's an evil genius mastermind. Anything less than solid WC performances and possibly a semi-final and I won't be purchasing anymore tickets until we have a new, competent management team.

I've been supporting Ireland since I was a child. I grew up watching them being largely kicked around the park and I've dealt with the frustrations of decades of poorly appointed management teams. This will be the first time I've said "enough is enough" and next season, should things continue in this vein, will be the first season I've actively not attended matches.

Let's stop being typically Irish for a change folks. Let's expect that our team be world class.

joseywhales

So Ireland were **** and that's what it comes down to.

But I think we all believe that we're still in touch with England, France, South Africa , Australia......

right? that's correct right? I mean we beat England last year so we must be right?

Sure we are because the majority of our squad have improved right?

Principal Skinner

BarackPyjama wrote: »

Tomtom364 wrote: »

If the players are playing badly on either team then either suck it up or stop attending matches.

Booing your own team for their preformance is disgusting.

The French do it. The Kiwis do it. Who are you to say what's "disgusting" or unacceptable in fairness? These guys are professional athletes and being paid quite handsomely. Some earning millions per year between salary and endorsements. You think we should treat them with kid gloves after paying top dollar for a ticket and they put in the kind of performance we saw yesterday? Or the week before?

If the players don't deserve to be booed off the pitch then the management team probably do. It's up to the players to sound up and let the supporters know that they're being mismanaged.

We need an open, honest and transparent management team. Declan Kidney's cryptic nonsense shows a considerable lack of respect and disregard for an increasingly knowledgeable rugby fan base in this country. Either he's covering up the fact that he doesn't really know how to coach a team... or he's an evil genius mastermind. Anything less than solid WC performances and possibly a semi-final and I won't be purchasing anymore tickets until we have a new, competent management team.

I've been supporting Ireland since I was a child. I grew up watching them being largely kicked around the park and I've dealt with the frustrations of decades of poorly appointed management teams. This will be the first time I've said "enough is enough" and next season, should things continue in this vein, will be the first season I've actively not attended matches.

Let's stop being typically Irish for a change folks. Let's expect that our team be world class.

Completely agree with you, if someone's performing bad at work you don't pretend everything's roses and applaud them for it, you sit them down and tell them to pull it out. These guys are doing a job on the pitch, why would it be any different for them?

I find it hard to have pride in my country when we are playing without passion, without invention and without and apparent game plan.

If you think about is it worth paying 80-90 odd euro for a six nations ticket to watch that crap when I could pay 30 euro to watch Leinster play sublime rugby with a better atmosphere.

This whole situation feels like 2007 all over again. Non-Irish coach needed

PTH2009

No I'm not going

Still dont think England will do much in the world cup.

Ireland need to get to a quarter final badly and it will ruin confidence if we are to be knocked out in the group stages once again.

Tommy Bowe was very quite yesterday, Johnny Wilkonsen is still a class player.

Irelands call was a disaster, brian Kenndy ruined it imo

Sofa King Great

PTH2009 wrote: »

Irelands call was a disaster, brian Kenndy ruined it imo

Phil coulter ruined it by writing it in the first place

frankie2shoes

I have never booed at a poor performance in my life but after watching this game i could completely understand the crowds frustrations.
england played predictable dull rugby and the irish team could barely keep up!!
absolutely dreadful performance.
on a provincial level we are used to good solid performances played with flair and ambition for the most part. leinster and munster fans have enjoyed the success of their teams in both the magners and the HEC. to see these same players going out and playing like that is frustrating in the extreme.
we've all been supportive of these bad performances for the last year for the most part, standing behind our team throughout!
perhaps the booing might act as a wakeup call for the supposed golden generation, although i'm sure they're embarrassed enough- they should be..........

CatFromHue

frankie2shoes wrote: »

we've all been supportive of these bad performances for the last year for the most part, standing behind our team throughout!
perhaps the booing might act as a wakeup call for the supposed golden generation, although i'm sure they're embarrassed enough- they should be..........

Did you not see how quick the knives came out for Schmidt and McGahan recently?

frankie2shoes

CatFromHue wrote: »

Did you not see how quick the knives came out for Schmidt and McGahan recently?

and who brought out the knives? george hook is not a true representation of the rugby going public as well you know.......

CatFromHue

I know what you mean but did you ever look on Munsterfans? The amount of anger coming off them was ridiculous over McGahan!

Even on here there were posters saying Schmidt wasn't a good choice of coach and that we should just write off the season. Not me though :cool:

[Jackass]

My main concenr from this match was that Kidney seems to rate Earls as a better midfiled player, or more versatile player than Bowe.

Bowe is by far our best attacking back, and why he would leave Bowe on the wing and still refuse to try him in centre and continue to go for the tried, tested and failed Earls as a 13 (wing is his one and only position) is beyond me.

As Tualagi breezed past him as if he wasn't there for Englands first try, and our best attacking threat barely touched the ball in the entire game, I can't help but think that the error of kidneys ways ever entered his head.

For that positional switch alone I think the score would have been much closer and could have been the winning or losing of the game. It's only a warm-up, but the biggest defeat was in where Kidneys rats his players.

Also, I agreed with dropping Fitzgerald from the squad, but by god he doesn't look that half bad now after seeing the attacking performance from our back three yesterday.

frankie2shoes

i agree. putting Earls at 13 does nothing but make him look bad. 12, 13 are the positions that link forwards with backs and with no cohesion the team will never create anything. In defense he is also weak. both earls and rog have heart and commitment but are not good defenders. you just had to see how many times rog commited himself to tackles only to see him pushed back. in munster he is protected, but with earls and an underperforming darcy beside him the hole in midfield was huge.
in the wc i'd like to see sexton playing with redden a lot more. these warm up games gave rog and redden some time to get used to one another if everything goes pear shaped, but, as of old with strings/rog, the sh oh pairing that is most familiar with each other always functions better.
experiments are over. lets hope when we start the wc we actually start playing players in their most suited positions.
and then that those players start playing.
:rolleyes:

Mr.Applepie

[Jackass] wrote: »

My main concenr from this match was that Kidney seems to rate Earls as a better midfiled player, or more versatile player than Bowe.

Bowe is by far our best attacking back, and why he would leave Bowe on the wing and still refuse to try him in centre and continue to go for the tried, tested and failed Earls as a 13 (wing is his one and only position) is beyond me.

As Tualagi breezed past him as if he wasn't there for Englands first try, and our best attacking threat barely touched the ball in the entire game, I can't help but think that the error of kidneys ways ever entered his head.

For that positional switch alone I think the score would have been much closer and could have been the winning or losing of the game. It's only a warm-up, but the biggest defeat was in where Kidneys rats his players.

Also, I agreed with dropping Fitzgerald from the squad, but by god he doesn't look that half bad now after seeing the attacking performance from our back three yesterday.

I agree with you - how could any over our wingers do anything when Earls clearly can't pass the ball. He takes the ball into contact everytime. I don't remember him once hitting the gainline and passing the ball. He was as predictable as Tindall or Tuilagi but not nearly as effective.

Earls still has deficiencies in his game, much like a lot of young players. When he's on the wing they don't get shown up but putting him in the centre is like pointing a neon sign at them.

As for bringing on centre and playing him on the wing, while you have a winger playing in the centre, the less said the better!

toxicity234

England Win

i don't think Saturday was that important. I mean it would be great to win but it more important to be going to the world cup having to prove something. The player now know that they have to improve 80% is the want to do anything in the world cup.

These Performances’s will be forgotten if we beat or draw with Australia and beat whoever we get to make a semi final.
The players are not playing well at the moment. But 2-3 weeks is a long time in any sport. We need 2 great performances and one good performance to make a world cup Semi-final. These are the game that this team will be judge on.

MrDerp

totallegend wrote: »

There's your solution so, don't go in future.

I wasn't sitting in my seat sulking for the match, I got behind every Irish attack, cheered any bit of competence/skill shown, and backed them to the end of the 80 mins.

I fully intend to keep going to matches, and I will get behind the boys for 80 minutes as I have done before. What has changed for me is that, once the final whistle has blown, my reaction will be based on my impression of the full 80 minutes overall, be it: jubilant cheering, indifferent applause, or a bit of an aul boo.

When I think about it, I might have booed after the six nations game against Scotland in 2010, had I not enjoyed the Scottish guts so much and applauded them off the field

molloyjh

No I'm not going

MrDerp wrote: »

I wasn't sitting in my seat sulking for the match, I got behind every Irish attack, cheered any bit of competence/skill shown, and backed them to the end of the 80 mins.

I fully intend to keep going to matches, and I will get behind the boys for 80 minutes as I have done before. What has changed for me is that, once the final whistle has blown, my reaction will be based on my impression of the full 80 minutes overall, be it: jubilant cheering, indifferent applause, or a bit of an aul boo.

When I think about it, I might have booed after the six nations game against Scotland in 2010, had I not enjoyed the Scottish guts so much and applauded them off the field

So let me get this straight, you will cheer them on for 80 mins and as soon as the whistle blows you'll boo them!? With friends like these...


Anyway, my take on this game (and state of the squad) is that we have seroius issues in the back-room staff. The logic being:

1. Our backs had zero penetration. All they were asked to do was shovel the ball across the field as quickly as possible. No one even had to fix a defender. Once whoever was on the wing received the ball they were doing so with no space and facing 2-3 defenders. Stand up and take a bow Gaffney.

2. Our only other tactics for going forward was one off runners into contact or kicking the ball....away. There was no invention, dynamism or even a Plan B. We've become horribly predictable in attack.

3. The half-back pairings. Like with like Deccie, Leinster/Leinster and Munster/Munster. The only time we saw that it actually worked well. So why is Kidney avoiding it so much? That said the half-backs weren't the issue on Saturday and I don't think either partnership showed a whole hell of a lot - the game plan obviously didn't help them any.

4. Earls at 13. The guy had a couple of bad games in a row. The last thing he needed was to be put out of position again. And with a natural 13 on the bench there was the option to move Earls back to the wing and put Ferg at second centre when Earls wasn't delivering. Yet Kidney chose to leave the winger in the centre and put the centre on the wing.

5. Leaving Healy on for so long. I don't need to say any more there. Even Jamie should have been taken off earlier. He was getting looked at a few times and obviously wasn't 100%.

6. Overloading the team with 6s and 8s had already been flagged by plenty as a potential issue and when Wally (who I am utterly gutted for) got injured we saw why. What worries me now is that SOB will be our first choice 7 in NZ.

7. Predictability of the substitutions. Injury related ones aside I was able to tell to within 2-3 mins when changes would be made and which ones they'd be. Again. And if me and my limited rugby brain finds them that predictable, how easy must it be for the professionals!? And what exactly are we using our bench for? We don't seem to be using it to make an impact on the game.


To me it's incredible how we can take a team of talented rugby players (and there is talent there) and mould them into something so mediocre. We don't have the talent from 1 to 15 that the likes of Australia or NZ would have, nor do we have the depth. But we're a hell of a lot better than that display on Saturday. Yet we've seen absolutely no sign of that in the warm-up games at all.

Het-Field

toxicity234 wrote: »

i don't think Saturday was that important. I mean it would be great to win but it more important to be going to the world cup having to prove something. The player now know that they have to improve 80% is the want to do anything in the world cup.

These Performances’s will be forgotten if we beat or draw with Australia and beat whoever we get to make a semi final.
The players are not playing well at the moment. But 2-3 weeks is a long time in any sport. We need 2 great performances and one good performance to make a world cup Semi-final. These are the game that this team will be judge on.

The problem is, Ireland have been on somewhat of a downward trajectory in terms of results for some time. In the last 18 months we have had a poor Southern Hemisphere Tour, home defeats to the Springboks, the All Blacks, the Scots, the French, and the English. We were lucky to take the Italians in Rome earlier this year, and we also took one on the chin from the Welsh in Cardiff last March. In reality, we have not been at the races since November 2009, and Heino Cup, and Magners League victories cannot gloss over that fact.

We are now heading to the World Cup on the back of four defeats, two heavy ones, and a general malaise in the performance levels of the team.

Since the World Cup in 1995 (the first one I paid attention to), I have never been as concerned as to the shape in which the Irish team finds itself. A bad performance against the cannon fodder in the group could lead to Irish Rugby becoming a laughing stock as it was after the 2007 debacle.

twinytwo

England Win

Het-Field wrote: »

The problem is, Ireland have been on somewhat of a downward trajectory in terms of results for some time. In the last 18 months we have had a poor Southern Hemisphere Tour, home defeats to the Springboks, the All Blacks, the Scots, the French, and the English. We were lucky to take the Italians in Rome earlier this year, and we also took one on the chin from the Welsh in Cardiff last March. In reality, we have not been at the races since November 2009, and Heino Cup, and Magners League victories cannot gloss over that fact.

We are now heading to the World Cup on the back of four defeats, two heavy ones, and a general malaise in the performance levels of the team.

Since the World Cup in 1995 (the first one I paid attention to), I have never been as concerned as to the shape in which the Irish team finds itself. A bad performance against the cannon fodder in the group could lead to Irish Rugby becoming a laughing stock as it was after the 2007 debacle.

V SA.. we were muck so were they.. game won on smiths intercept from reddan blind pass.

V ABS.. well at the end of the day its the abs, can we beat them.. yes?... but then our task is always made harder by the fact that they are let away with a lot... that said have we played 80 mins worthy of beating them.. not that i can remember.

V IT and SCOT... both these games came down to the fact we thought we only had to turn up... got caught like a dear in the head lights.

V Wales... had so many chances to win i nearly cried, lost to cheating.

V England.. losing wallace and heaslip cost us dearly.. no SOB or Drico showed we are not as safe in terms of players as some people believe. I think its safe to say had drico been playing england would not have scored their first try.

We just need to look at the last abs game or beating england in the 6N's to see how we can play when we want to.

Our problems stem around our lack of back penetration, kicking away ball that should not be kicked away. And for some stupid reason trying to run from our 22 when most of the backs are in a ruck. We should be playing to our strengths not letting others dictate how the game should be played.

JustinDee

twinytwo wrote: »

Our problems stem around our lack of back penetration

Have you counted up the tries? Ireland have a healthy try-scoring record, particularly within the timeline you use.

My own view is that teams like Italy and Scotland (and Argentina) suck the rugby out of the game, rely on spoiling, slowing down of ball at breakdown and pushing the limit on penalties. As with almost all winning teams, the pack needs to be boss.
Remember how England beat Aussie in 2007. It wasn't in the setpieces. It was at the breakdown. They whalloped them in the rucks. Ganged them in the contact area, forcing turnovers and knock-ons. Took to them in numbers when it counted and then went the cynical route at other times. It was a pretty strong Aussie side that lost that game. This Ireland team can do all of what England did and also have an even better firepower in the backline.

I think people will be pleasantly surprised at what the team bring onto the field over the next few weeks.

steve9859

Yes I'm going

JustinDee wrote: »

Have you counted up the tries? Ireland have a healthy try-scoring record, particularly within the timeline you use.

My own view is that teams like Italy and Scotland (and Argentina) suck the rugby out of the game, rely on spoiling, slowing down of ball at breakdown and pushing the limit on penalties. As with almost all winning teams, the pack needs to be boss.
Remember how England beat Aussie in 2007. It wasn't in the setpieces. It was at the breakdown. They whalloped them in the rucks. Ganged them in the contact area, forcing turnovers and knock-ons. Took to them in numbers when it counted and then went the cynical route at other times. It was a pretty strong Aussie side that lost that game. This Ireland team can do all of what England did and also have an even better firepower in the backline.

I think people will be pleasantly surprised at what the team bring onto the field over the next few weeks.

You are right about the breakdown. England won the world cup because they had the best 6,7,8 in the competition. Hill, Dallaglio, Back. Ireland's back row stepping up to the plate is more important imo that whatever centres Ireland have on the field. Its the world cup we are talking about - its tight and nervous and there isnt much space. Wilkinson was good, but its easy to be good when you have go forward ball at every ruck

Tuilagi's try might or might not have been stopped by BoD. But it would definately have been stopped if someone in the backrow had actually put in a tackle - the ball shouldnt have got out to Tuilagi.

I would argue with you, incidentally, that the Ireland back line now has more firepower than England's in 2003 - Robinson and Greenwood (at their best), a much more dynamic Mike Tindall, and Josh Lewsey and Ben Cohen in 2003 form


(edit: I just saw that you said 2007, not 2003. Your backline is better than what ours was in 2007!!! Apologies!!)

danthefan

England Win

steve9859 wrote: »

Tuilagi's try might or might not have been stopped by BoD. But it would definately have been stopped if someone in the backrow had actually put in a tackle - the ball shouldnt have got out to Tuilagi.

What?

Please point out at which point the ball could have been prevented from getting to Tuilagi.

CatFromHue

danthefan wrote: »

What?

Please point out at which point the ball could have been prevented from getting to Tuilagi.

I presume Steve9859 means in the play leading up to the try. I think it was from a scrum where the English made some ground through a couple of phases and then spun it wide.

danthefan

England Win

JustinDee wrote: »

I think people will be pleasantly surprised at what the team bring onto the field over the next few weeks.

I seriously hope you're right, but at the moment my faith in this team is pretty much gone to be honest.

twinytwo

England Win

danthefan wrote: »

I seriously hope you're right, but at the moment my faith in this team is pretty much gone to be honest.

Nah with any luck kidney told the team to go out and play crap on purpose so the aussies wont even see it coming.... well i hope anyway:(:pac:

Reloc8

Reloc8 wrote: »

Thread bookmarked.

Coming back to read it again after we play Australia.

Pretty happy now actually

rebel girl 15

JustinDee wrote: »

I think people will be pleasantly surprised at what the team bring onto the field over the next few weeks.

Good call!!

Kunny

XWB wrote: »

Very poor from Ireland.

To be honest if we werent 13 days out from a world cup I would say Kidney may well be for the chop. But we're locked into it now and have to ride it out.

Taking this from another angle if I was Eddie sitting on my condo in San Diego or wherever I would be think "lets hit Ireland from the 1st minute and we may get somthing here"(losing bonus...but who would rule out a win at the moment)

On Kidney...he seems to be the only one who doesnt know that Leinster are the best team in Europe..as he persists with the old Munster game. We have skillful players out wide that are just left watching the "big boys" truck it up the middle over and over until we lose the ball or knock it on(did plenty of that today). In my opinion O'Gara is no longer a starter...he closes out games but desnt win them for you. His defensive frailties outweigh his kicking.
Bear in mind however that we were missing BOD and SOB and they contribute a lot to the all round game. Look when we get to the Oz game we will have 2 wins and that may buoy the team. If we dont have 2 wins when we play Oz...well we should just go home......not embarass ourselves!

Isn't it funny how things are so hard to predict

phog

Kind of strange to see an oldish thread being dragged up again but if I to quote only one post from this thread this is the one

JustinDee wrote: »

I think people will be pleasantly surprised at what the team bring onto the field over the next few weeks.

C'mon Ireland

wixfjord

Hindsight is 20/20 eh lads?
If you were to describe the situation that we're in now after that particular game, you'd be locked away in Dundrum.
You can only comment on what is actually happening, not what the potential is, or what could happen to be fair.