Sportive Challenge

Leroy42

Hi,

Have done a few sportives this year, and despite some bad weather (W200 being the worst!) have enjoyed them all.

In my experience there are two types (ok there are loads but for the sake of this post let’s cut it to two!) of participants. Those that simply want to get around (what the sportive is meant to be about) and then there is always the fast group that want to hammer around as quickly as possible.

Some of the front guys are racing anyway, but I assume that some like me don't do racing but do enjoy a fast sportive and would like something to add a bit more spice.

Would anybody think it a good idea to try to put some sort of Sportive Series together? I don't have any exact idea how it would work but think it might be something that others are interested in. I guess at it simplest, it would be a group of us who post on boards agreeing a couple of events to enter next year and taking it from there.

As I mentioned, it is only an idea, so would welcome any ideas (or of course if people think its pants then so be it:P).

patrick151

Were you thinking something competitive, like total time over the events, or just a social thing?

Sounds like it might be a good idea though, and it'll all be for charity

jimm

I doubt that the organisers of these things would be over the moon, if a group wanted to turn their leisure events into races, if that's what you're proposing.

Leroy42

There are already people who treat these events as 'races'. Not in the same way as races themselves, but certainly a level above the recreational cyclist that makes up the majority of the field.

I guess I am thinking more on the lines of a social thing, with a competitive side to it.

I am not proposing having timing chips etc, but on the sportives I have done there is always a fast group which goes off the front. At the Leinster Loop, as soon as Stephen Roche pulled off, the pace went up. Once the first hill was encountered the very large bunch was split.

So I am not proposing to change anything that isn't already happening, and I don't see why it would make any difference to the organisers as the idea would be based on rolling time rather than who finished first. (However I am sure that most will want to get into the front group).

For those that don't do racing (and even for those that do) it gives that added incentive to get to each of the sportives selected. Entry fees would all be done as normal; this idea will be totally separate. I see it as something akin to the hillclimb TT's that are done here sometimes. No prizes etc, no additional entry fees, but just something a little more cohesive for these that may not be in clubs or can only commit to certain amount of events each year.

I like the whole sportive vibe, have tried racing and don't have the time or inclination to get involved again, but the sportive gives (in my opinion) the best of both worlds.

blorg

Traditionally a sportive IS timed- all the big ones in Europe are. Doesn't make it a race like a mass start road race.

People note their times and post them here already. I don't see the harm in the likes of this and it provides a little extra incentive/encouragement.

Chips Lovell

I've never understood why some people treat sportives like races when there's actual races you can do every weekend.

kenmc

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I've never understood why some people treat sportives like races when there's actual races you can do every weekend.

It's way easier to beat people riding Halfords MTBs than those riding Pinarellos

Leroy42

People know its not a race, hence they normally take a rest at the foodstops etc, but neither do they fall into the category of just wanting to get around the course.

Racing is a completely different animal, I for one find the more relaxed atmosphere of a sportive to be more to my liking. I do also like to push myself and its good to be able to compare myself against others.

Don't think even the front group in sportives are racing in the true sense, merely pushing hard. Surely there is space for people to partake in some fun competition rather than have to get involved in full racing.

ROK ON

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I've never understood why some people treat sportives like races when there's actual races you can do every weekend.

I know a fair few cyclists that are animal strong and competitive. They treat sportives seriously but don't race. I guess some people just want to race against " themselves" so to speak or against a few close mates over a challenging 150km circuit versus endless laps of a small circuit.

Chips Lovell

It's not like your average A4 race is the equivalent to the Tour de France. And at least everyone there knows they are in a race.

ROK ON

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It's not like your average A4 race is the equivalent to the Tour de France. And at least everyone there knows they are in a race.

True. But some just like winning against the old, fat and infirm.

Lumen

ROK ON wrote: »

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It's not like your average A4 race is the equivalent to the Tour de France. And at least everyone there knows they are in a race.

True. But some just like winning against the old, fat and infirm.

That's what A4 is for.

ROK ON

Lumen wrote: »

That's what A4 is for.

Not on the few I've seen.

I dont get why people are competitive in a mon competitive event and yet don't enter competitive events. It's just that I know lots of people that roll like that.

niceonetom

As a recovering competitive-leisure-rider I know what the OP is coming from.

There's a lot a great races that have cashed in on their prestige by appending a sportif - l'etape, sporitves of the Ronde, Roubaix etc... perhaps there is a case for going the other way and turning some of the more popular sportives into actual races? I know there's a big step-up in the logistical challenge of running and marshalling a race rather than a sportif, but the draw of racing (legitimately) over a course like the W200 or the SKT would be big and I'm sure a lot of us would even countenance going over the normal tenner to cover the costs of running such a big event. If it worked they'd become races big enough to draw some big guns, maybe something like the Shay Eliot but with a bigger field, all cats and conceivably a handicap system or recognition of minor placings for lower cats.

I don't think laps of our usually flat and dull race course hold quite the same appeal as racing over a properly epic and really attritional course. After a while, and not a long while either, going around in small circles for 80km and seeing what happens in the inevitable bunch sprint can get a little old.

Just a thought.

Chips Lovell

I think have a properly run race over those kinds of courses would be an impossibility for virtually all Irish clubs.

ROK ON

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I think have a properly run race over those kinds of courses would be an impossibility for virtually all Irish clubs.

I don't see why?
I have seen some really well run sportives and triathlons. The organisation is the same in terms of start, finish, road layout, marshals, Zt John Ambulance etc.

I think a 120 km race for the plebs is a great idea. Mass start then every man/woman for himself. The most in sportifs I've done have been like this.

There are also unsanctioned races that are run like this but without the back up etc.

niceonetom

Yeah, it may well be pie in the sky, but perhaps if several clubs worked together and it was run with a bigger budget (i.e. with higher entry fees) than the run of the mill races it could be possible. Sportifs are run on a for-profit basis, and on the continent there are companies that make good money organising them, yet there seems to be a basic assumption that racers will throw a strop if anyone asks for more than a tenner and races must be run out of the kindness of our hearts - that lovely and all, but I'd pay significantly more if we could, just once a year, race over something a bit more epic than the green sheds. It would take a professional outfit to pull it off, and no such entity exists which is a shame. There'd be legal issues too I suppose and that would probably be as big a hurdle. Anyway, it was just a notion.

It'd be great though, wouldn't it?

ROK ON

@niceonetom. I think Etape Ras Mumhan and Etape Skyride are essentially like this. Timed non competitive completive sportifs. A race within a non race so to speak.

Leroy42

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I think have a properly run race over those kinds of courses would be an impossibility for virtually all Irish clubs.

Hence the idea of not making them races, but merely having some competition within them.

Most lower races, as mentioned, are run over pretty boring courses (for obvious logistic reasons) but where does a cat 3 or 4 go for courses like W200, Orwell Randonee, Leinster Loop or Wicklow Peaks?

Anyhow, regardless of why somebody would do a 'competitive' sportive, do people think there would be an appetite for some competition?

niceonetom

Leroy42 wrote: »

Anyhow, regardless of why somebody would do a 'competitive' sportive, do people think there would be an appetite for some competition?

I don't think there's any need to go looking for it on the internet. In my experience of these things a lead group naturally forms with some hard nuts doing the grunt work and as the group gets smaller and smaller everyone who's left knows that, in all but name, the race is on. I've even seen attacks launched and chased down on the last 10km of sportives. That's not something you can plan in advance other than making it clear that if anyone wants to be in that group they better start with them and make sure they're ahead of the splits.

Lumen

For competitive solo riding there are time trials (and du/tri-athlons).

For competitive group riding there is club racing and A4.

If A4 is genuinely too scary/crashy/competitive, then CI needs to work with the race organisers to stop that shít.

If there isn't any club racing where you live, organise it yourselves.

There is a perception that open racing is "difficult". Good. I don't want to ride in a bunch with people wearing runners and backwards helmets.

If sportives were more racy they would also be more crashy. There is already a fair bit of crashing on non-competitive sportives.

Chips Lovell

As it is, if you run an open race, you'll lose money on it.

But it isn't even the money. There's a lot of clubs who ban most of their riders from racing races they're organising. Because they can't get enough people to help out otherwise. If you can't get the manpower to properly run a 30km circuit race, what hope do you have getting people help with a 200km race in the Wicklow mountains.

Organising a sportive and a race are very different things. The first is a leisure event where participants are expected to cycle sensibly. The second you are actively encouraging people to push it. The safety standards at the latter need to be far higher than at the former.

While there is no doubt that there is a constituency of people who want long, challenging races, I doubt they are in the majority. I find the smaller fields are at the hilly races. Asking A4s and A3s to pay above the odds for a race where they suspect they might get shelled on the first hill mightn't get the response you'd be hoping for.

Chips Lovell

Lumen wrote: »

If A4 is genuinely too scary/crashy/competitive....

It isn't. Plenty of the guys who see busting their arses at sportives would survive if not thrive in A4.

Also, the other problem I have with people "racing" sportives is that it encourages dickish behaviour. If I'm doing a leisure event I expect it to be just that. If I wanted to deal with people shoving other riders off wheels I'd go race instead.

ROK ON

Lumen wrote: »

For competitive solo riding there are time trials (and du/tri-athlons).

For competitive group riding there is club racing and A4.

If sportives were more racy they would also be more crashy. There is already a fair bit of crashing on non-competitive sportives.

I cponcede readily that you know more about racing and crashing than I do. While the inheirent risk in a competitve sportive would be raised, it is unlikely to be as high as a race. I would think that a 120-180km circuit with plenty of hills would thin even a very large field pretty rapidly.
This year I did the Etape Ras Mumhan (timed 130km around Dingle Peninsula and finishing on top of Conor Pass (5.5km @6%).
Initially about 100-120 of us started together and most of us stayed together for first 70km or so. First long climb splintered the field compeletly. A lot of people made it back on at the top for water stop (many didnt). By the top of the Conor Pass people were rolling across the line in 1s and 2s. There would have been few enough opportunities to crash due to usual factors of large bunch acceleration/deceleration/cornering etc.

I know a guy involved in Ras the Ras, and while this year was slow, they are going to give it a shot next year and see if there is traction. Toms idea of something on the morning of the Shay Elliott is a good idea also. No reason that the elite guys can have a proper race, while all of the freds can have a fred race earlier on in the day. The logistics are already done, there are forst aid, marshalls, otor cycle outriders etc already in place.

blorg

Road racing and trying to do an 'epic' sportive course as fast as you can are two completely different things. I do both and completely disagree with the 'go do a race' sentiment. Not the same. I like to race; I also like to do the Marmotte. Completely different experience. I am under no illusions that I am going to podium in the Marmotte but I set out to set the fastest time I can. Needless to say it is also very different from a TT and to suggest that as an option is ridiculous.

In a road race you are 123456 or you are nowhere. In a sportive you are trying to set a decent time; what that is, is up to you. There is room for both.

PeadarCo

blorg wrote: »

Road racing and trying to do an 'epic' sportive course as fast as you can are two completely different things. I do both and completely disagree with the 'go do a race' sentiment. Not the same. I like to race; I also like to do the Marmotte. Completely different experience. I am under no illusions that I am going to podium in the Marmotte but I set out to set the fastest time I can. Needless to say it is also very different from a TT and to suggest that as an option is ridiculous.

In a road race you are 123456 or you are nowhere. In a sportive you are trying to set a decent time; what that is, is up to you. There is room for both.

Completely agree. For me in a race you race against other people. When trying to set a fast time in a sportif you are racing against yourself. Sportives are for everbody not just people who are happy to ride around and finish. Even if they were there would still be some degree of competitivness. Some people like to compete regardless of their ability.

godihatedehills

ROK ON wrote: »

Toms idea of something on the morning of the Shay Elliott is a good idea also. No reason that the elite guys can have a proper race, while all of the freds can have a fred race earlier on in the day. The logistics are already done, there are forst aid, marshalls, otor cycle outriders etc already in place.

or why not just enter a hilly A4 race that already exists?

Leroy42

I'm not sure that there are many A4 races in the mountains. As Blorg said, there is a complete difference between an event like Marmotte and racing.

I my mind, simply racing on flatish circuits for say 1 hour and then 4 laps, while the A1 group cacthes you from behind is not what cycling is all about. Is it the flat stages that make the TdF? Part of cycling, at least for some, involves climbing, and while I completely understand why there are not races over the Wicklow mountains (it is hard enough to give a group of friends together never mind a large group) I am not suggesting that anything to be changed.

With the advent of sites like Strava, there are more and more ways to compare yourself against others. While racing of course is the best form of this, and I wholeheartedly agree that sportives are not in the same league, the risks inherent in racing due to the higher speeds, more risks being taken due to the prize etc mean that I have have tended to opt for the more relaxed form of the sportive. Lets be honest here, we are all competitive to some degree, you just have to look at some of the forums discussing communting racing (we have all done it) and even the Howth Hill thread to show that people do like to rate themselves against others.

Al I was suggesting is that rather than just me and a few friends competing against each other it could be widened out. The events would remain exeactly as they are, and too be honest there in reality would only be a few places on each course where 'racing' would happen after which in would fall back to a group ride.

Dermot Illogical

Leroy42 wrote: »

With the advent of sites like Strava, there are more and more ways to compare yourself against others. While racing of course is the best form of this, and I wholeheartedly agree that sportives are not in the same league, the risks inherent in racing due to the higher speeds, more risks being taken due to the prize etc mean that I have have tended to opt for the more relaxed form of the sportive. Lets be honest here, we are all competitive to some degree, you just have to look at some of the forums discussing communting racing (we have all done it) and even the Howth Hill thread to show that people do like to rate themselves against others.

Al I was suggesting is that rather than just me and a few friends competing against each other it could be widened out. The events would remain exeactly as they are, and too be honest there in reality would only be a few places on each course where 'racing' would happen after which in would fall back to a group ride.

Why not use Strava? Mark segments and publicise before an event. Let testosterone do the rest.

Chips Lovell

Leroy42 wrote: »

I my mind, simply racing on flatish circuits for say 1 hour and then 4 laps, while the A1 group cacthes you from behind is not what cycling is all about.

It isn't. Which is why there's hilly races as well as flat races, individual category races as well as handicaps, not to mention stage races, TTs, criteriums etc.

ROK ON

godihatedehills wrote: »

or why not just enter a hilly A4 race that already exists?

I did this . . . still have nightmares about it:).

Its a fair point but very binary. I think that there is a market for a fast/timed/paced/racy sportif. There are already a few here, many across the pond, and bucket loads in Europe. There is a market for this to stand alongside leisurely sportives.

I guess the difference comes down to this - An Event. I have been to some triathalons and sportifs that were events. By that I mean they had a sense of occasion. Hundreds of folk milling aboout, a sense of anticipation and expectation. All the trappings of an event - music, bunting etc etc.
Now in sportives and tris, many people want to compete for a sense of achievement. But a lot of folk also treat them seriously - (now I am aware that tris are an actual race, whereas sportives are not). Nothing wrong with that at all. It is possible to cater for both in the same event. A hilly A4 race doesnt do that. Held in some one horse town in the middle of no where. A load of lads on bikes, giving it socks. Its a race, you know its a race. But it may not be An Event. Often the after event rehydration will extend into the early hours of the following day.

I guess that is the distinction, in my mind. From what I see, the tri crowd and some of the sportif organisers build an event that becomes bigger and there is a sense of occasion about it (just look at Mt Leinster Challenge, Tour de Burren, Chain Gang Sportives, Sean Kelly Tour, Tour of Kilkenny etc etc). While these are not races, there are many participants that are racing them (either against themselves or their mates or strangers).
SHould they race - maybe they already do, but maybe they are not getting their jollies from paying a tenner to race five times around a the circumferance of a few fields in the middle of goknowswhere. Thats all I'm saying.

ashleey

When I first started doing sportives I would have been intimidated if it was a race. Not so now but it is important not to scare off the mamils of the future. And also the fact that (most) people will offer help with punctures etc if it's not a race

skidpatches

A wise man once said "there's a certain category of cyclist who like the frisson of cycle racing but aren't tough minded enough to take part in it. So they enter things that aren't races and try and win them. Which is a bit tragic really."

Magilla Gorilla

A possible solution is for Boardsies with Garmins (or similar devices) to post up their stats to a shared spreadsheet and/or to link to their Garmin page for verification, if needed. That way, you could go flat out on a sportive safe in the knowledge that the race is only in your head and you're not causing grief to organisers etc.

We could agree that you must complete a minimum of say three events to take part in the "league", and points could be awarded for the top ten or fifteen Boardsie times in each event etc.

I don't have the know-how to do it exactly, but I'm sure someone can.....