Free fees initiative

anucksunamun

Hi, I have gotten conflicting advice and answers on this, but as a mature student am I entitled to this http://www.studentfinance.ie/mp9377/course-fees/index.html? I have been given two totally different answers on this, Do I automatically receive this or do I have to apply for the grant for fees? Last year I did this course: http://www2.wit.ie/SchoolsDepartments/SchoolofEducation/Courses/Description,33624,en.html
but apart from that I've never done anything like this.. so if you need more info please just ask I know I'm cutting it very fine if I do have to apply for a grant.. eek.. advice appreciated. thanks

Larianne

You are entitled to free tuition fees but will still have to pay the student contribution (registration fee). You may qualify for a grant to cover this.

anucksunamun

Thanks Larianne, please excuse my ignorance on this, but do I apply for the normal grant? is that the payment of fees? or is it another form?

Annasopra

anucksunamun wrote: »

Thanks Larianne, please excuse my ignorance on this, but do I apply for the normal grant? is that the payment of fees? or is it another form?

The "free fees" are tuition fees - You automatically get these - The student contribution is a separate fee - You can get a grant to pay this and some maintenance depending on your means. The forms are at www.studentfinance.ie

dchris

I completed some 3rd level , however never completed my degree ( I left college in 2nd year) I cannot find an answer anywhere as to whether I am eligible, I keep getting conflicting answers. I have been out of education for over 5 years and am now classed as a Mature Student. I left halfway through repeating my 2nd year of a 4 year degree course.
I am now ready to go back to college, but am not sure if I am eligible for free fees . I have checked citizens information, college websites, college websites, I even rang a Mature Student officer at the college who told me one thing then the admissions officer in the same college telling me something different! My head is done in!! HELP!

Abby19

You could be eligible under the 2nd chance clause, if you have been out of education for over 5 years, but some people on boards have posted that they were refused.

'In general, you will not get a grant for repeating a year or attending a course at a level that does not represent progression from what you have done before. These conditions are specified in paragraphs 14 to 17 of the Student Grant Scheme 2011 (pdf). However, ‘second chance students’ may be eligible for a grant. A ‘second chance student’ is someone who is aged over 23, did not successfully complete an earlier course and is returning to pursue an approved course after at least 5 years.'

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/third_level_education/fees_and_supports_for_third_level_education/maintenance_grant_schemes_for_students_on_third_level_courses.html

dchris

Thanks Abby. I am getting so disheartened about the whole thing Everytime it seems possible there seems to be something that goes against! Ah well, I will try my best and keep enquiring until someone gives me a definitive.. I find it unfair that some colleges ask for an administration fee of c. 30 euro to accompany an application, however cannot tell me in advance whether I would be eligible for fees. It is a lot a 30 euros to waste in the case that I am told I am not eligible for fees which I would be in no way to afford.. Thanks for taking the time to reply! x

paperclip2

From what you have stated dchris you should be eligible for free fees under the 2nd chance rule since you don't have a qualification and its over 5 years since you left college.

You can get a pretty definitive answer from the DES Student Support unit. This is the dept of ed section that develop and implements funding policies for third level education. I find them very helpful as regards giving the right info on funding. You can contact them on 057 9325317

Hope this helps

dchris

Thanks for your info Paperclip..

So I ring the DES and explain my situation.. I am told the following info:

1. Did I check studentfinance.ie ( Er, yes I did, gave me 2 different answers)
2. You may have to pay fees for the first year that you completed and the part of 2nd year.
3. But you may be eligible for the "5 Year Rule"

And how do I find out if I am eligible under the 5 year rule?

4. Well you should ring the college and ask them...

No one seems to want to commit to an answer in fear that they are wrong.. But in this instance, who enforces the rules like. Seems a complete joke..They want the college to tell me if am compliant with DES rules.. very confused..

Emailed college as couldn't face explaining the whole scenario to another living human over the phone, as if I am fobbed off again I am in fear as to what I would say..r

paperclip2

Sorry to hear that was a waste of your time. I usually get something worthwhile out of them.

If you like you can PM me if you want me to a bit more digging on what might apply in your case. From the info you supplied it looks pretty clear cut as regards the five year rule.

dchris

Cheers mate! I decided to ring the college but no one was available that could help, but they said they would call me tomorrow. So I will either get an email reply or a call . So hopefully I might get a definitive answer ..When I find out, I will let you know what happens!
Thanks again

paperclip2

Try the college fees office too maybe. They might be able to give you some more clearer info.

dchris

Ok, here is the "definitive" as per the university.. Because I successfully completed one year of college, despite me being out of education for 5 years or more, I am still eligible for full fees for the 1st year (and maybe part of the 2nd year)
However, the college have said that because of my credits , I may be permitted to enter into 2nd year.. Have to wait and see

paperclip2

Hi dchris,

I'm not clear from your post if you have been cleared for free fees for first year or not.

If the college are telling you you have to pay first year fees you could appeal it if you wanted to.

dchris

Hi Paperclip,

I completed 1st year in TCD successfully. In second year I took 2 subjects - Sociology and Economics. I passed sociology and failed economics.

The fees office in the new university said I am not eligible for free fees to begin a new course starting in 1st year. (Despite being out of education for 5 years ) However I may be able to transfer into 2nd year based on the ECTS I have from the first time around.

I can only gather from the college's feedback , that the only people eligible for the 5 year Rule are people who have failed 1st year.

To make matters worse, the college have also said that because I have been out of college for 5 years I may not be eligible to transfer into 2nd year because of the lapse in time. Which seems a bit contradictory as I won't be eligible for either the five year rule, nor the transfer into 2nd year. Which would mean my only choice is to start a new course in 1st year and pay full fees. As I am unemployed, this is a non-runner for me! I don't even know how I will scrape together the registration fee of 2250euro

I am still none the wiser, however the admissions officer in the new college has gone out of her way to help me since I explained how much problems I have been having to find out the proper information. The problem I have is the cut off is 1st of May for applications, and I still don't know if I have to apply for a transfer to 2nd year or for a new course starting in 1st year (and whether I have to pay fees) I am waiting to hear back.

If I can appeal the decision, do you think I should apply in anyway? And if so, who do I make an appeal too? The DES are saying that the college decide and the college are saying that their decisions are based on the rules imposed on them.

Very frustrated, and beginning to panic as only 6 working days left to find out what I need to do.

Any advice be greatly appreciated

thanks again

paperclip2

It looks like the new college is taking a particular interpretation of the 5 year regulations. Its a knotty problem but you could appeal it maybe. I'm going to do a bit of digging on the application of this 5 year rule legislation. I'll post whatever I turn up, if anything.

dchris

Cheers. I really appreciate your help. No one seems to have responsibility for making a decision. Any info I could find on the "5 year rule" was just a one liner with no footnotes. I hope college won't be as difficult as the application process!

Maldesu

I went back to uni after being out for 5 years. I had completed a year of a course but not the second year. When I got my place I was listed as having to pay all the fees. I emailed the fees office and told them I hadn't completed a course and was out for 5 years. They told me my previous college had me listed as having completed a course and I needed a document from them saying I hadn't finished.

I went to the previous college, told them to type up a letter saying I'd not finished and sent it to the Uni's fee office. About 2 days later I was listed as getting free fees.

G'Luck

paperclip2

dchris wrote: »

Cheers. I really appreciate your help. No one seems to have responsibility for making a decision. Any info I could find on the "5 year rule" was just a one liner with no footnotes. I hope college won't be as difficult as the application process!

Right dchris I had a chat with the Dept and this is what they told me.

If you have 5 clear years from the time you FORMALLY left the college and as long as you received NO certification /qualification whatsoever from your original course you ARE eligible for free fees for your new course.

So you need to clarify that you:

• Formally left the college. i.e did you send a letter or speak directly to anyone in the college to say that you were officially leaving your course?
  
• Have you a full five clear years from the time the college documented that you had formally left?
  
• That you did not receive any form of certification or qualification for the year that you spent in college.

If you fulfill these conditions the college can claim back your first year fees from the Dept of Education so there is no requirement that you should pay first year fees.

The dept said that you might be dealing with someone who doesn't understand the 5 year rule fully or as in the case of Maldesu that your original college didn't take you off their books. You will probably need to contact your original college for a letter stating when you actually left the course.

Hope this helps.

dchris

Thanks for this Paperclip! Can you tell me who you spoke to in the Department? Anyone I speak to won't give me a definitive answer, I even rang them today. Maybe I am ringing the wrong department. DES Student Support- Fees Section??



I have gone back to the college and have explained all this and they said they will look into it and get back to me. However they said that the clause they are talking about states that

"Tuition fees will be paid in respect of eligible students who, having attended but not completed approved courses, are returning following a break of at least five years in order to pursue approved courses at the same level.

Students who have previously pursued, but not completed a third level programme will not be eligible for free tuition fees for the equivalent period of time spent on the first programme of study."

Its is so frustrating, as now I believe I am eligible, but cannot seem to convince the college that I am.. The college didn't take kindly to me explaining that I interpret the rules differently to them..But at the end of the day , they aren't the ones paying for it.. Where do I go from here, the guy I spoke to in the college basically spoke over me when I tried to suggest that I am eligible under the rules. He said " No , no , no, you are not, we should know" I had to keep my cool, as there is a chance I will have to do an interview, and it would be my luck that this git would be on the interview panel!

I think I am going to apply for the course regardless through the CAO and direct to the college, and if i get offered a place and they say I am eligible for fees, I will kick up a fuss then and try to convince them.. As I am going out of my mind and have my heart set on going back to college. I was convinced I was eligible as I had researched everything a year ago, I even have bought books and began reading just to get back in the swing of things..

Thanks for doing so much to help Paperclip, restored my faith in humanity!


D

Annasopra

How do you interpret it differently to the college? - are the courses the same level?

dchris

The Department say that -
"Tuition fees will be paid in respect of eligible students who, having attended but not completed approved courses, are returning following a break of at least five years in order to pursue approved courses at the same level."
(Which is my scenario)

But the college say :
"Students who have previously pursued, but not completed a third level programme will not be eligible for free tuition fees for the equivalent period of time spent on the first programme of study."

So basically the college are not taking into account the 5 year rule and applying the above rule to each scenario first. In that instance the only time the 5 year rule would be applied is if a student left college 5 years ago , whilst in 1st year, if that was the case I would imagine they would have worded it like that, but they haven't.

I interpret that because the 2 rules above exist this rule :
"Students who have previously pursued, but not completed a third level programme will not be eligible for free tuition fees for the equivalent period of time spent on the first programme of study."

is for those who are not eligible for the 5 year rule.

and that the following applies for those who are eligible:

"Tuition fees will be paid in respect of eligible students who, having attended but not completed approved courses, are returning following a break of at least five years in order to pursue approved courses at the same level."

The department seems to agree, but the college does not..

Annasopra

My understanding is that the Dept set the rules for fees and the colleges then interpret them

My reading of it would be that you would be entitled to free fees as a second chance student

A lot of colleges/unis have clear published policies on this

TCD - 2e/f
http://www.tcd.ie/Treasurers_Office/fees/fees_freefees.php
UCD - 2A
http://www.ucd.ie/registry/adminservices/fees/free_tuition.htm
NUIG - d/e
http://www.nuigalway.ie/student_fees/fees/ffees_entitlement.html
DCU - 7
http://www.spd.dcu.ie/main/administration/admissions/documents/InformationFreeFeesInitiative.pdf
UL - Exceptions
http://www2.ul.ie/pdf/496200382.pdf

What college are you hoping to attend?

Maybe you should contact either the Student Union Education officer in the college you want to attend or the USI Education officer.

dchris

Hi Mango Salsa,

This is exactly the problem I am having.

Basically in the rules, for example the TCD ones you posted a link to

They state on Rule D that
Students who have previously pursued but not completed a course which has not attracted exchequer funding may be deemed eligible for free fees subject to compliance with the other conditions of the free fees initiative.


Students who have pursued a course of third level study which has attracted exchequer funding (e.g. fees, maintenance, tax relief, subsidy towards course cost) and have not secured a terminal qualification and subsequently resume third level studies are not eligible for free fees for the equivalent period of time spent on the first course of study. Part-time and evening students are included in this category.

However rule F states that :

(f) Tuition fees will be paid in respect of students who, having attended but not completed approved courses, are returning following a break of at least five years in order to pursue approved courses at the same level.

What I am experiencing is that the college I am applying to is implementing both rules at the same time, thus coming up with the conclusion that I am not eligible for fees as despite being out of college for 5 years, because I have completed a portion or the course, I am eligible to pay for this portion of any new course I do.

I have no doubt that the college is interpreting the rules wrongly, but trying to convince them they have made a mistake is going to be the issue as it is the Admission's officer of the Uni that has said this to me..

If you don't mind, I won't say the name of the Uni at this point as I will have to sit an interview. Plus I wouldn't like to identify the Admissions Officer on here

Maldesu

Rule D applies to those who have :

Students who have pursued a course of third level study which has attracted exchequer funding (e.g. fees, maintenance, tax relief, subsidy towards course cost) and have not secured a terminal qualification and subsequently resume third level studies are not eligible for free fees for the equivalent period of time spent on the first course of study. Part-time and evening students are included in this category.

You are not subsequently resuming. You have waited the five years.
Don't suppose you can talk to someone in the Fees department?

dchris

Are you interpreting "subsequently resume" to mean following immediately afterwards? I just read this as any-time afterwards..

I have rang the fees office who forwarded me to admissions and now admissions are liaising with the fees office. Basically Admissions say that Rule D applies firstly, and that Rule F only applies once other proceeding rules are adhered. But they need The Fees office to confirm.. I have tried telling them what the department have said, but they are making me feel like an idiot when I try to explain it. One person I spoke with even sniggered at me!
Furthermore, earlier in the year I spoke to the Admissions Officer and Mature Student Officer in St.Patricks College as I had intended to apply there too, and because they said I was not eligible as a "Second Chance" student I didn't apply for the course. Now , it seems, I am eligible, yet colleges are telling people they are not. I am sure there must be people out there who wanted to apply but through mis-information from the colleges think they are not eligible. As centres of academic excellence, you would think they would get their facts right

Annasopra

It seems very clear to me that you would be regarded as a 2nd chance student because of the 5 year break - I think this definitely something you can appeal - maybe give the education officer in USI a call

dchris

Brilliant! I just emailed the Students Union Education officer ,Aengus Ó Maoláin , and got an automatic reply saying he is away until the 1st of May, which just happens to be the closing date for applications! I will call them tomorrow and try find someone else that might help , thanks!

Maldesu

dchris wrote: »

Are you interpreting "subsequently resume" to mean following immediately afterwards? I just read this as any-time afterwards..

Yeah, since they distinguish the 5 year gap as something separate.

dchris wrote: »

I have rang the fees office who forwarded me to admissions and now admissions are liaising with the fees office. Basically Admissions say that Rule D applies firstly, and that Rule F only applies once other proceeding rules are adhered. But they need The Fees office to confirm.. I have tried telling them what the department have said, but they are making me feel like an idiot when I try to explain it. One person I spoke with even sniggered at me!

Sure this is a place you want to apply to? Sounds like they need some education themselves. Hope the people as USI can give you some info, but it does sound like the college is taking the piss.

Just looked at St. Pats and they follow the criteria of DCU. I think you've been getting stuck with people who don't have a clue.

Annasopra

Maldesu wrote: »

Yeah, since they distinguish the 5 year gap as something separate.



Sure this is a place you want to apply to? Sounds like they need some education themselves. Hope the people as USI can give you some info, but it does sound like the college is taking the piss.

Just looked at St. Pats and they follow the criteria of DCU. I think you've been getting stuck with people who don't have a clue.

I wouldn't personally interpret "resuming" that way

I've been involved in student politics in 3 different colleges in Ireland - bureaucracy and incompetence of some people in some administrative offices happens a fair bit - In my view it's not at all unique to any college - It just means to get past it you need doggedness and determination to challenge it.

dchris

Maldesu wrote: »

Sure this is a place you want to apply to? Sounds like they need some education themselves. Hope the people as USI can give you some info, but it does sound like the college is taking the piss.
.

My experience of Admins in 3rd level leaves a lot to be desired. Thankfully I have found the academic staff much more cut out for their jobs.