Free fees initiative

paperclip2

Hi dchris. BL**DY HELL :mad::eek:. This is wrecking my head so God alone knows what its doing to you. I've PM'ed you the name of the person I dealt with in student support. She was quiet categorical that if you fulfilled the conditions as outlined in my last post that the college can claim first year fees for you from the DES.
If you want to PM me the name of the college I can do some quiet digging. I spend a chunk of my work day dealing with colleges for mature students so maybe I can find out something more.

Chin up as my dad would say.

dchris

Thanks Paperclip, just PM'd you there..


I rang the Uni, and the person in Admissions has said that they were not going to contact me until next week as they were very busy (despite the closing date being Tuesday May 1st....... seriously like) I told them I need an answer, and it was clear from the reply i got that they had not enquired as to my eligibility as a "Second Chance Student" So it would seem the Admissions Office was just making up their own interpretations of the rules instead of actually looking the damn things up.. The Admissions officer couldn't give me a definitive answer as to either of my original queries.. I was bullin on the phone.. They said they would call back in the morning..

In the meantime I rang my old college (TCD) and happened to speak to an amazingly accommodating person who definitively stated that - Yes, I am eligible as a Second Chance Student and should be treated the same as a school leaver due to the 5 year rule. Also told me if the new Uni has trouble with this that TCD can make contact on my behalf or write a letter saying that I am eligible as a Second Chance Student to be permitted to TCD and show them another Uni is willing to take me..

So still playing the waiting game , albeit a tad more upbeat than yesterday!

paperclip2

Just PM'ed you back there.
I think its clear cut at this stage. You are eligible for free fees under the five year rule despite the colleges stance. Its a crying shame you have had to jump through so many hoops to get some clarity on a straightforward issue.

dchris

So, despite every bit of information gathered, TCD stepping in, The Department saying they would pay.. The Fees office in the college have said that NO, I am not eligible. After querying it with the Admissions person who returned the news, I asked who was the person who made the decision. She said the "Fees Office" She would not give me the name. She then said she would contact the burser, and gave me his name. And I said I would ring him, she said, no you don't ring him, he is very busy!!!! I don't know how I bit my lip.. Some old bat in a fees office in that college on some big salary can't read a set of guidelines, and won't even have the courtesy to talk to me about it! A complete joke. F*%$$g pisses me right off.. I think I will just have to tell them exactly how I feel about it, and F$%K them if they don't let me in..

Annasopra

dchris wrote: »

So, despite every bit of information gathered, TCD stepping in, The Department saying they would pay.. The Fees office in the college have said that NO, I am not eligible. After querying it with the Admissions person who returned the news, I asked who was the person who made the decision. She said the "Fees Office" She would not give me the name. She then said she would contact the burser, and gave me his name. And I said I would ring him, she said, no you don't ring him, he is very busy!!!! I don't know how I bit my lip.. Some old bat in a fees office in that college on some big salary can't read a set of guidelines, and won't even have the courtesy to talk to me about it! A complete joke. F*%$$g pisses me right off.. I think I will just have to tell them exactly how I feel about it, and F$%K them if they don't let me in..

Again I think they are doing this wrongly

You need to stay calm and determined - Ask them what the appeals procedure is for the decision and can you appeal it to the dept of education if the bursar says no

paperclip2

:eek::eek::eek:
As MS says you can appeal it. Don't lose the rag, justified and tempting as this is. The bottom line is that you don't have to pay the first year fees.

Email them the information you have gathered including details from TCD, the Student Support Unit, and the other colleges polices on the 5 year rule (cheers Mango Salsa for those links) and ask them for clarification as to why you aren't eligible.
Perhaps get in touch with the person you spoke to in Student Support and ask them to email the dingbat you have had to deal with clarifying the 5 year rule. And when all this is done make a complaint. This is beyond ridiculous! :mad:

dchris

Thanks guys!

Yes Paperclip, that is exactly what the DES people said. Basically get the college to email their responses, and why they deem me not eligible. Then forward it to them and they will now step it. They are also gob-smacked by the college and said they have never heard of this ever happening before.

paperclip2

dchris wrote: »

Thanks guys!

Yes Paperclip, that is exactly what the DES people said. Basically get the college to email their responses, and why they deem me not eligible. Then forward it to them and they will now step it. They are also gob-smacked by the college and said they have never heard of this ever happening before.

Oh the tales I could tell....:D A decade in adult ed builds up serious scar tissue!

I'm very glad the DES are taking this up. Its very much David vs Goliath when you are on your own but it goes to show how persistent you need to be. It shouldn't happen though.

dchris

What I can't stop thinking about is how many other people under the same circumstances has this college already turned away? And not only will they believe what the college have said, they will believe it of other institutions as well and be dissuaded from applying there too! There could be someone out there with no job, and wanted to return to college but this stupid college have told them they have to pay 6 Grand in fees, and as a result they will never go back to college!

paperclip2

dchris wrote: »

What I can't stop thinking about is how many other people under the same circumstances has this college already turned away? And not only will they believe what the college have said, they will believe it of other institutions as well and be dissuaded from applying there too! There could be someone out there with no job, and wanted to return to college but this stupid college have told them they have to pay 6 Grand in fees, and as a result they will never go back to college!

My thoughts exactly. If you make a formal complaint then I would ask that question. TBH its probably a genuine mistake, fair enough, but how they've handled it is atrocious.

dchris

Oh meant to update yesterday ended up going to bed at 5pm exhausted! lol The admissions rang back and said they had made a mistake and I was eligible.

I am also eligible for BTEA and to apply for my Student Contribution to be covered! All need to do now is be accepted for the course!

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I reckon I may of gave up pursuing it with all your help!

D

Annasopra

dchris wrote: »

Oh meant to update yesterday ended up going to bed at 5pm exhausted! lol The admissions rang back and said they had made a mistake and I was eligible.

I am also eligible for BTEA and to apply for my Student Contribution to be covered! All need to do now is be accepted for the course!

Thanks everyone for all the advice. I reckon I may of gave up pursuing it with all your help!

D

Great - best of luck with the course

paperclip2

And sanity prevails...:D Best of luck

Pentopaper

Hi all
Can anyone please advise me on this topic based on my circumstances. All advice is greatly appreciated. I have been offered a place as a mature student and am a lone parent at present.

Previously in 2004 I did a part time course for a diploma which later was not recognised on the nfq . It was deemed a year short. In 2009 I completed a higher cert. both of these courses were paid for by myself and no tax relief was sought .

The course I have been successful in gaining a place for is full time and for four years in a completely different subject level 8. I have made several phone calls to various places trying to find out if I will be entitled to free fees.it would appear that the different places have different points of view.

If I am not is there any further grant options to help with fees. As currently being on lone parents allowance wont cover college fees.

Any advice is much appreciated.

Many thanks

Annasopra

what level were those courses?

Pentopaper

mango salsa wrote: »

what level were those courses?

The diploma is a level 6 because it fell short of a year and it was before the nfq list. The higher cert is also a level 6.
Thanks

Annasopra

Pentopaper wrote: »

The diploma is a level 6 because it fell short of a year and it was before the nfq list. The higher cert is also a level 6.
Thanks

was the higher cert part time as well?

Pentopaper

Both were part time

dubdad

I feel a lot better after finding and reading through this thread. Although i now have a couple more questions i need resolved.

I previously attended a third level institution WAY more than five years ago and attended for three years but was unable to sit the final exams and subsequently recieved no qualification.

I am in a similar situation myself, after doing my research and talking to various student finance officers at college open days i believed i was elegible for free fees under the second chance rule. So i decided to commit myself to return to college as i have been unemployed for three years and need to re train in an area i can find work.
Needless to say i have gone through the whole CAO process, secured a place in a level8 degree course. I have also gone through the whole SUSI application process, got my doc. pack sent back and am awaiting the decision on the grant. ..This is where things started to crumble a little.
I gather it will be another couple of weeks before i get a decision on the grant as it seems to be a very slow process and my doc pack only went back last week, i decided to call the college in question to find out if there was anything i needed to bring in to them on regristration day (such as the letter from SUSI stating i was elegible to progress to the next level of the process), the help me to be registered temporarily, as i assume a lot of other students awaiting the grant will be in a similar situation. Anyway the conversation with the(very nice) lady in the college admin turned to my particular circumstances whereupon i was told that as the course i previously attended was a lvl7 and i was now entering a lvl8 i would be inelegible for the free fees grant. Heartbroken.
She also told me that i could apply for a grant for the student contribution end of things if i was not getting free fees. Here I am also confused about this as i thought that the free fees and student contribution went togther.

She also stated that ultimately it was not her decision but that of SUSI.
Here i am a little confused after reading through the thread where it seemed that the decision was made by the college that dchris is hoping to attend.
This was yesterday and the lady said she would speak to her colleagues and get back to me.Nothing so far. sweating bullets as you can imagine.
I have talked to citizens advice and they seem to think i am elegible, however i didn't feel that they were 100% sure on this as it is not something they get a lot of enquiries on.
I also talked to DES who also said i was eligible under the five year rule but i only had a quick talk as the lady(v. nice, & helpfull) had a meeting and could only talk for 5mins. , but after reading the previos posts i gather that DES make the guidelines but they are not the people administering them.
I even stayed up half the night reading the white paper on the subject(Student Grant Scheme 2012) but having no legal training whatsoever i would be afraid to draw any conclusions from what i read(although what i could gather was positive)

This whole area seems to be rather gray and varies from institution to institution depending on who you talk to. Considering the rising number of matures returning to college i think that studentfinance.ie need to seiously think about making this area as crystal clear as is possible on their site considering it is meant to be the definitive source of information for prospective students.

Sorry for pouring out my thoughts in such a verbose manner, to summarise:
1. student free-fee grant : this decision is made my SUSI alone and the college complys with the decision?
2. entering a lvl8 couse after previously spending time on a lvl7, should this have any bearing on the 5yr rule?
3. the free fee element of the grant, is this independant of the student contribution element?

Any replies greatly appreciated from persons who have been through the hoops or/and people in the know

pizza_saur_rex

dubdad wrote: »

I feel a lot better after finding and reading through this thread. Although i now have a couple more questions i need resolved.

I previously attended a third level institution WAY more than five years ago and attended for three years but was unable to sit the final exams and subsequently recieved no qualification.

I am in a similar situation myself, after doing my research and talking to various student finance officers at college open days i believed i was elegible for free fees under the second chance rule. So i decided to commit myself to return to college as i have been unemployed for three years and need to re train in an area i can find work.
Needless to say i have gone through the whole CAO process, secured a place in a level8 degree course. I have also gone through the whole SUSI application process, got my doc. pack sent back and am awaiting the decision on the grant. ..This is where things started to crumble a little.
I gather it will be another couple of weeks before i get a decision on the grant as it seems to be a very slow process and my doc pack only went back last week, i decided to call the college in question to find out if there was anything i needed to bring in to them on regristration day (such as the letter from SUSI stating i was elegible to progress to the next level of the process), the help me to be registered temporarily, as i assume a lot of other students awaiting the grant will be in a similar situation. Anyway the conversation with the(very nice) lady in the college admin turned to my particular circumstances whereupon i was told that as the course i previously attended was a lvl7 and i was now entering a lvl8 i would be inelegible for the free fees grant. Heartbroken.
She also told me that i could apply for a grant for the student contribution end of things if i was not getting free fees. Here I am also confused about this as i thought that the free fees and student contribution went togther.

She also stated that ultimately it was not her decision but that of SUSI.
Here i am a little confused after reading through the thread where it seemed that the decision was made by the college that dchris is hoping to attend.
This was yesterday and the lady said she would speak to her colleagues and get back to me.Nothing so far. sweating bullets as you can imagine.
I have talked to citizens advice and they seem to think i am elegible, however i didn't feel that they were 100% sure on this as it is not something they get a lot of enquiries on.
I also talked to DES who also said i was eligible under the five year rule but i only had a quick talk as the lady(v. nice, & helpfull) had a meeting and could only talk for 5mins. , but after reading the previos posts i gather that DES make the guidelines but they are not the people administering them.
I even stayed up half the night reading the white paper on the subject(Student Grant Scheme 2012) but having no legal training whatsoever i would be afraid to draw any conclusions from what i read(although what i could gather was positive)

This whole area seems to be rather gray and varies from institution to institution depending on who you talk to. Considering the rising number of matures returning to college i think that studentfinance.ie need to seiously think about making this area as crystal clear as is possible on their site considering it is meant to be the definitive source of information for prospective students.

Sorry for pouring out my thoughts in such a verbose manner, to summarise:
1. student free-fee grant : this decision is made my SUSI alone and the college complys with the decision?
2. entering a lvl8 couse after previously spending time on a lvl7, should this have any bearing on the 5yr rule?
3. the free fee element of the grant, is this independant of the student contribution element?

Any replies greatly appreciated from persons who have been through the hoops or/and people in the know

There is a short or long explanation to this subject... I am going to go with the short explanation:

The college's charge a tuition fee and a student contribution fee. Depending on if it is a IT and an university, the tuition fee can range from 1500 euros to 7000 euros per year (EU rate). And the student contribution fee is standard at 2250 euros (and rising).

In order to helps families pay these costs, the government has two main schemes-- Free Fee Initiative and the Student Grant.

Free Fee Initiative is facilitated by the college. If you meet certain requirements (residency status, EU National, it is your first degree etc), your tuition fee is billed by the college to the Department of Ed. If you do not meet the requirements, you are liable for the tuition fee.

BUT... there is still hope as you will see with the next scheme.

The Student Grant is facilitated by the local councils (up until this year when the dublin VEC has taken over the job, creating SUSI). The student grant scheme is made up of four parts -- the tuition element, the maintenance grant element, the student contribution element and the field trip element. Most of the time, the Student grant is associated with the maintenance grant part (basically cash grant to help with college expenses) and the student contribution part (they will pay the 2250 euro).

Because most of the student fall into the Free Fee Initiative, most of the time, the tuition element of the student grant doesnt get used unless a Irish student goes to a college course in the north. But if you do not qualify for the free fees, you still have a chance for SUSI to pick up the tab for the tuition fee up to I think 6,700 euros. That is if you meet the requirements for the student grant which is on a sliding income scale.

So that is probably why the college admin said it wasnt up to her anymore, but in the hands of SUSI.

Its also good to note that both schemes are regulated Depart of Ed, and ultimately, the money comes out of their accounts.

PlainP

pizza_saur_rex wrote: »

There is a short or long explanation to this subject... I am going to go with the short explanation:

The college's charge a tuition fee and a student contribution fee. Depending on if it is a IT and an university, the tuition fee can range from 1500 euros to 7000 euros per year (EU rate). And the student contribution fee is standard at 2250 euros (and rising).

In order to helps families pay these costs, the government has two main schemes-- Free Fee Initiative and the Student Grant.

Free Fee Initiative is facilitated by the college. If you meet certain requirements (residency status, EU National, it is your first degree etc), your tuition fee is billed by the college to the Department of Ed. If you do not meet the requirements, you are liable for the tuition fee.

BUT... there is still hope as you will see with the next scheme.

The Student Grant is facilitated by the local councils (up until this year when the dublin VEC has taken over the job, creating SUSI). The student grant scheme is made up of four parts -- the tuition element, the maintenance grant element, the student contribution element and the field trip element. Most of the time, the Student grant is associated with the maintenance grant part (basically cash grant to help with college expenses) and the student contribution part (they will pay the 2250 euro).

Because most of the student fall into the Free Fee Initiative, most of the time, the tuition element of the student grant doesnt get used unless a Irish student goes to a college course in the north. But if you do not qualify for the free fees, you still have a chance for SUSI to pick up the tab for the tuition fee up to I think 6,700 euros. That is if you meet the requirements for the student grant which is on a sliding income scale.

So that is probably why the college admin said it wasnt up to her anymore, but in the hands of SUSI.

Its also good to note that both schemes are regulated Depart of Ed, and ultimately, the money comes out of their accounts.

I am in a position where my college has said that I have to pay fees but after I spoke to SUSI they said I was not eligible for the grant but eligible for the fees. I took this as the registration fee. So if I am not eligible for the grant but am for the fees does this also mean the tuition fee???

This is the first I have heard of this?

dubdad

As I said earlier there is still a lot of confusion around this whole area, I have had so many diffrent versions from so many diffrent people.

I don't need to worry about the maintenance grant luckily enough for me as i have been unemployed for a couple of years following redundancy, and have recieved the green light for the BTEA.

Looks like i may have to dig my heels in, and perhaps even bring my case to DES if i get turned down for fees and student contribution. Looks like it could be a bit of a struggle, judging from what some other people have posted on the site.

Good luck to the rest of you , hope your journey goes well. DD

Pentopaper

Hi Dubdad,
I researched this for as long as I could . I rang the HEA who told me I wouldn't qualify for fees ( and nearly had a heart attack) then I decided to ring SUSI got chatting to a lovely lady there who told me to apply to them like yourself I am going on BTEA. I didn't really get the whole SUSI element but she told me that I could qualify for free fees from them the tuition part and tge student contribution part of eligible. I asked her if there was any point in applying having spoken to HEA? She said apply anyway. I did then sent off all info required when requested, they needs something else later that was sent in to mid July and I rang them yesterday and nothing further has happened with the application yet. I am presuming it is in a queue.eanwhile I got a declaration re: fees from the college I am attending to be filled out by past colleges. Did that and returned it. And got a letter bk saying I was eligible for free fees . however between all my mental torture and torturing anyone who would listen to me I heard that charities may also be able to provide some assistance . Worth writing a few letters if this is true. I decided the biggest thing was getting the place . After that if the whole fee thing wasn't sorted by HEA or SUSI I was going to pick a few random local businesses and volunteer myself for donations, get it in local paper etc. Mortifying but I would have done it just to take the place. The BTEA is another story I left the application form in , in July with a copy of CAO acknowledgement and letter from college confirming I had accepted a place. To date tge app form has travelled to 4 social welfare offices , and I am still none the wiser as to whether or not I qualify if so when it starts. Registration in college Monday . No idea what's happening with that.
My advice would be sit tight , wait and see what happens HEA might pay your fees if not SUSI might. Don't stress too much and hopefully between them you'll be sorted

From someone who was pulling my hair put trying to find out where my fees would come from. I've tortured myself mentally and probably everyone I know for months .

With best wishes for your studies.
And do let us know how you get on