Indo article on PS Pay Cuts, comparing Ireland to Greece

galway2007

fliball123 wrote: »

Why not tackle what I posted here...At that time we had just got a kick in the ass budget ... As I say and I stand by it I dont hate the public sector or anyone in it..But do I think its unfair that they get to keep their pay/pensions and perk in tact under the cpa at a time when we are all being raped for more taxes and see those on the dole get more cuts and see vital public services being taken away such as A&Es yes do I go as far as saying I hate this ..yes I do..but I stand by the fact that I dont hate the PS ... I may hate some of the "i am worth it attitude among some in here on the ps side but there are plenty of the same in the private sector who are off the same sense of entitlement..So as I say tackle the ball not the man and deal with the post....

You have issues big issues
www.samaritans.org

Count Dooku

galway2007 wrote: »

are u an idiot or what?
Do you not know that tax increase hit the public sector as well?

and preserves PS pensions, while PS cuts will apply to retired PS workers as well because their pensions depends from gross of present staff
When taxes will reach level of 80's then PS pensioners will cost to state more then those who are working now

sarumite

deleted

fliball123

galway2007 wrote: »

are u an idiot or what?
Do you not know that tax increase hit the public sector as well?
A teacher starting today starts on 35% less than 3 year ago
All PS staff has take a 15 % pay cut and a pay freeze for 4 year
What have u done?
Fools like you need to stop letting the Irish independent control your thinking

but did they get cut this year or will they be cut in the next couple of years...I to date have had a 15% cut have not had a pay rise over the last 5 years I am expected to do more hours .... and the oblivious point of all ps including teachers starting today when there is a recruitment freeze so how am I an idiot how does someone starting in the ps today get 35% less when there is a recruitment freeze on ...

Dr Galen

galway2007 wrote: »

are u an idiot or what?
Do you not know that tax increase hit the public sector as well?
A teacher starting today starts on 35% less than 3 year ago
All PS staff has take a 15 % pay cut and a pay freeze for 4 year
What have u done?
Fools like you need to stop letting the Irish independent control your thinking

galway2007 wrote: »

You have issues big issues
www.samaritans.org

Seriously?

You think this is an appropriate way to speak to someone on this forum?

For reference, it's not. You have been banned before from this forum for rudeness and personal abuse.

Benefit of the doubt given this time, and this time only. Next time, it'll be a ban.

Cheers

DrG

rainbowtrout

fliball123 wrote: »

but did they get cut this year or will they be cut in the next couple of years...I to date have had a 15% cut have not had a pay rise over the last 5 years I am expected to do more hours .... and the oblivious point of all ps including teachers starting today when there is a recruitment freeze so how am I an idiot how does someone starting in the ps today get 35% less when there is a recruitment freeze on ...

Because some teachers are being hired. Children still have to be taught. No extra teachers are being hired. Just when there are hours available (mainly due to retirements) they are being replaced.

Teachers entering the service this year are on a different pay scale to anyone already in service. A contract for full hours is practically non existent. Permanent contracts are unheard of. I know of plenty of teachers applying for jobs where there are only 6 or 7 hours simply to get a foot in the door.

Teachers like all PS workers had a pay cut 2 years ago and have been paying the pension levy for the last couple of years. Do some research before you go spouting rubbish about the public service.

sarumite

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Because some teachers are being hired. Children still have to be taught. No extra teachers are being hired. Just when there are hours available (mainly due to retirements) they are being replaced.

Teachers entering the service this year are on a different pay scale to anyone already in service. A contract for full hours is practically non existent. Permanent contracts are unheard of. I know of plenty of teachers applying for jobs where there are only 6 or 7 hours simply to get a foot in the door.

Teachers like all PS workers had a pay cut 2 years ago and have been paying the pension levy for the last couple of years. Do some research before you go spouting rubbish about the public service.

This is something of a bug-bear for me. I think its a disgrace that we are paying people two rates for doing the same job. The government showed a clear lack of balls on this, either cut all teachers by 10% or don't cut it all.

Good loser

By far the biggest scandal in the public/private sector debate is the wage levels, perks etc in Bord Gais, ESB, Networks, NTMA and, for all I know, many other semi states.

These all got pay rises in 2009 and 2010 - courtesy of a compliant Labour Court and supine government (plural). On the nonsensical basis of being 'profitable'.

As prices since 2008 have fallen 4% and these have had wage increases of up to 15% since then their real standard of living has increased by 20%. If mainstream public service workers have had a 10% pay cut the semi state workers have gained 30% on these people.

Both ESB and Gais are looking for horrendous price increases.

The boards of these companies should be told in no uncertain terms to unwind these wage increases and reduce prices equal to the amount retrieved.

If not this a special dividend of the amount recouped should be paid to State.

Before 2008 these were the best paying companies in the State. At the very least salaries in these companies should be restored to Jan 2008 levels.

Legislate if necessary.

ardmacha

By far the biggest scandal in the public/private sector debate is the wage levels, perks etc in Bord Gais, ESB, Networks, NTMA and, for all I know, many other semi states.

Indeed. If you were a water engineer (say), you might be a bit peeved at having been cut by 15%+ when the guy you were with in college in the ESB has had an increase, even though you have the same job for all intents and purposes.

Because the government wishes to give away the product you provide free, there is no money to pay you, but the ESB just increase their price.

femur61

galway2007 wrote: »

are u an idiot or what?
Do you not know that tax increase hit the public sector as well?
A teacher starting today starts on 35% less than 3 year ago
All PS staff has take a 15 % pay cut and a pay freeze for 4 year
What have u done?
Fools like you need to stop letting the Irish independent control your thinking

But isn't that bolting the stable door after the horse has gone. PS pay may be tackled for new entrants but how many are receiving pensions at the old level and lump sums are still left untouched. I don't work in the PS here but did many yeras ago did in the UK (albeit briefly) and the wages here are much better. Out of 8 in my family 6 work in the PS, many with spouces as well in the PS. As much as i don't want them to suffer they do tell me of the wastage and the perks they get are unbeleivable.

RobbieTheRobber

femur61 wrote: »

But isn't that bolting the stable door after the horse has gone. PS pay may be tackled for new entrants but how many are receiving pensions at the old level and lump sums are still left untouched. I don't work in the PS here but did many yeras ago did in the UK (albeit briefly) and the wages here are much better. Out of 8 in my family 6 work in the PS, many with spouces as well in the PS. As much as i don't want them to suffer they do tell me of the wastage and the perks they get are unbeleivable.

This is all true I eat caviar everyday for lunch while sittng in my gucci designed chair using a platinum bowl and spoon all paid for by the taxpayer of course. :rolleyes:

Pure hearsay and worse anti PS propganda is all thats in this post!
The only truthful thing that I can take from your post is that your family are wasters ("they do tell me of the wastage") although why you would announce this on a public forum is anyones guess.

fliball123

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Because some teachers are being hired. Children still have to be taught. No extra teachers are being hired. Just when there are hours available (mainly due to retirements) they are being replaced.

Teachers entering the service this year are on a different pay scale to anyone already in service. A contract for full hours is practically non existent. Permanent contracts are unheard of. I know of plenty of teachers applying for jobs where there are only 6 or 7 hours simply to get a foot in the door.

Teachers like all PS workers had a pay cut 2 years ago and have been paying the pension levy for the last couple of years. Do some research before you go spouting rubbish about the public service.

Have you got figures of new entrants coming in vs existing vs retired...as you have to have a look at what we are paying over all..I would hazard a guess at less than 5% of people working in the PS fall into the remit of the "new entrant" rule...Or do you have figures to prove me wrong. And as for the sad tale of the poor teacher having to do 6/7 hours to get their foot in the door well welcome to the world of the private sector..they have the same choice as the rest of us..Change job or leave the country...Surely they claim social welfare for the rest of the days they dont work..So I have no sympathy for any teacher

Gumbo

Good loser wrote: »

By far the biggest scandal in the public/private sector debate is the wage levels, perks etc in Bord Gais, ESB, Networks, NTMA and, for all I know, many other semi states.

These all got pay rises in 2009 and 2010 - courtesy of a compliant Labour Court and supine government (plural). On the nonsensical basis of being 'profitable'.

As prices since 2008 have fallen 4% and these have had wage increases of up to 15% since then their real standard of living has increased by 20%. If mainstream public service workers have had a 10% pay cut the semi state workers have gained 30% on these people.

Both ESB and Gais are looking for horrendous price increases.

The boards of these companies should be told in no uncertain terms to unwind these wage increases and reduce prices equal to the amount retrieved.

If not this a special dividend of the amount recouped should be paid to State.

Before 2008 these were the best paying companies in the State. At the very least salaries in these companies should be restored to Jan 2008 levels.

Legislate if necessary.

ardmacha wrote: »

Indeed. If you were a water engineer (say), you might be a bit peeved at having been cut by 15%+ when the guy you were with in college in the ESB has had an increase, even though you have the same job for all intents and purposes.

Because the government wishes to give away the product you provide free, there is no money to pay you, but the ESB just increase their price.

Guys, do some research please, not all semi state employees got pay rises. ESB admin staff (earning mid 20's BTW) were put on pay freezes in 2009 and havent received a penny more since, so i dont know where your pulling the figures from, as i have personal knowledge of this

20Cent

Is there any other country in the world where two tax fugitives own so much media and have so much influence peddling propaganda. I doubt Monaco or the Caribbean would put up with it.

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

This is all true I eat caviar everyday for lunch while sittng in my gucci designed chair using a platinum bowl and spoon all paid for by the taxpayer of course. :rolleyes:

Pure hearsay and worse anti PS propganda is all thats in this post!
The only truthful thing that I can take from your post is that your family are wasters ("they do tell me of the wastage") although why you would announce this on a public forum is anyones guess.

Is it your argument that there is no inefficiencies (or 'waste') within the public sector?

Gumbo

femur61 wrote: »

and the perks they get are unbeleivable.

Can you elaborate?

doc_17

fliball123 wrote: »

Have you got figures of new entrants coming in vs existing vs retired...as you have to have a look at what we are paying over all..I would hazard a guess at less than 5% of people working in the PS fall into the remit of the "new entrant" rule...Or do you have figures to prove me wrong. And as for the sad tale of the poor teacher having to do 6/7 hours to get their foot in the door well welcome to the world of the private sector..they have the same choice as the rest of us..Change job or leave the country...Surely they claim social welfare for the rest of the days they dont work..So I have no sympathy for any teacher

You make a statement (my bold) also without knowing the facts. If the hours were on 5 different days, which they surely would then no welfare can be claimed.

femur61

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

This is all true I eat caviar everyday for lunch while sittng in my gucci designed chair using a platinum bowl and spoon all paid for by the taxpayer of course. :rolleyes:

Pure hearsay and worse anti PS propganda is all thats in this post!
The only truthful thing that I can take from your post is that your family are wasters ("they do tell me of the wastage") although why you would announce this on a public forum is anyones guess.

Yes, recently nurses bikes subsidised up to 50% to buy bikes, some I know bought bikes but they thought it was hilarious that a place in town was giving invoices for bikes when in reality they bought lawnmowers. When my sister in law starting working in her ward 10 years there was one manager now there are nine! My sister is doing meaningless courses to get a day off work once a week.

Lumbo

femur61 wrote: »

Yes, recently nurses bikes subsidised up to 50% to buy bikes, some I know bought bikes but they thought it was hilarious that a place in town was giving invoices for bikes when in reality they bought lawnmowers.

That's not a perk, that's fraud :rolleyes: ffs The bull**** I read on here.

Also, the bike scheme is open to all employers, not just the Public Sector.

http://www.bikescheme.ie/

Gumbo

femur61 wrote: »

Yes, recently nurses bikes subsidised up to 50% to buy bikes, some I know bought bikes but they thought it was hilarious that a place in town was giving invoices for bikes when in reality they bought lawnmowers. .

Im sorry, but i call BS.

The bike scheme is a tax offer available to every single person working in the country.......


www.bikescheme.ie

Edit - beaten to it by Lumbo.

ParkRunner

fliball123 wrote: »

I to date have had a 15% cut have not had a pay rise over the last 5 years I am expected to do more hours .... and the oblivious point of all ps including teachers starting today when there is a recruitment freeze so how am I an idiot how does someone starting in the ps today get 35% less when there is a recruitment freeze on ...

fliball123 wrote: »

Have you got figures of new entrants coming in vs existing vs retired...as you have to have a look at what we are paying over all..I would hazard a guess at less than 5% of people working in the PS fall into the remit of the "new entrant" rule...Or do you have figures to prove me wrong. And as for the sad tale of the poor teacher having to do 6/7 hours to get their foot in the door well welcome to the world of the private sector..they have the same choice as the rest of us..Change job or leave the country...Surely they claim social welfare for the rest of the days they dont work..So I have no sympathy for any teacher

Why not change job yourself to improve your own circumstances rather than look for someone else to take pain because you are?

sollar

femur61 wrote: »

Yes, recently nurses bikes subsidised up to 50% to buy bikes, some I know bought bikes but they thought it was hilarious that a place in town was giving invoices for bikes when in reality they bought lawnmowers.

These people wouldn't be so smart if they were sacked for fraud.

RobbieTheRobber

sarumite wrote: »

Is it your argument that there is no inefficiencies (or 'waste') within the public sector?

Nope otherwise I would have said that I would have expected.
If you read my post you'll get my point.

femur61 wrote: »

Yes, recently nurses bikes subsidised up to 50% to buy bikes, some I know bought bikes but they thought it was hilarious that a place in town was giving invoices for bikes when in reality they bought lawnmowers. When my sister in law starting working in her ward 10 years there was one manager now there are nine! My sister is doing meaningless courses to get a day off work once a week.

So private sector enterprises cooperated with HSE staff in scamming the government is this your point?
If it is PM me and we will both ensure they are reported to the relevant people in the government and the garda as this is a criminal matter. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

senordingdong

mickeyk wrote: »

Areas of the PS are wildly overpaid, particularly in the semi state sector,

I don't think it's 'areas' so much as it's 'individuals'.
We all saw the scandalous amount that the CEO of the ESB is getting, despite his voluntary reductions and the fact that their rates are going up.

But I'll bet if you checked with your average Joe Soap ESB worker, you'll find that they are enduring cuts etc... just as much as the private sector.

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Nope otherwise I would have said that I would have expected.
If you read my post you'll get my point.

I did read your post and it confused me so I asked the question. The way I read your post,it implied that the only people who spot wastage are the wasters. Thats the point I got from your post.
It is possible to spot waste within an organisation without being the person responsible for the waste. I would actually say the best employees are those that spot waste as they are actively engaged with their job rather than just going in and doing the motions.

Degsy

fliball123 wrote: »

Wel Moan Burton has been on Newstalk stating that social welfare will have to hit in some measure..

Good.About time too.

Degsy

sarumite wrote: »

The problem is that the state cannot afford it. We are broke. The private sector which is required to generate the income to pay for the public sector is slowly eroding. As such, spending must come down. Currently the two elephants in the room are SW and PS pay and pensions which are both too high considering the current economic situation. As such both will have to come down, whether you call some a begrudger( or a nazi ....begrudger is the new Godwins law afterall :pac:) or not.

Corporation tax is too low in this country..it needs to be increased substantially to provide more tax revenue.

And it will be!

sarumite

Degsy wrote: »

Corporation tax is too low in this country..it needs to be increased substantially to provide more tax revenue.

And it will be!

I agree. However, we can't tax ourselves out of this problem. We can't cut ourselves out of it either. It will need to be a mix bag of tax increases and spending cuts.

Tim Robbins

fliball123 wrote: »

Wel Moan Burton has been on Newstalk stating that social welfare will have to hit in some measure..

Moan Burton. Genius.

Dannyboy83

3 years later and still the same discussion.............yawn....

All you actually need to know is this:

Irish Taxes are moving within EU Norms.
Irish Public Sector Salaries and Pensions are not.

ardmacha

Irish Public Sector Salaries and Pensions are not.

They are, actually. People in many other EU countries are receiving pay rises and will receive several more by 2014.

fliball123

doc_17 wrote: »

You make a statement (my bold) also without knowing the facts. If the hours were on 5 different days, which they surely would then no welfare can be claimed.

Well how foolish would it be work only 5 hours....or 5 (1 hour days) ...

fliball123

EF wrote: »

Why not change job yourself to improve your own circumstances rather than look for someone else to take pain because you are?

That option is also open for PS employees when they get a pay cut.... As I say I dont see why I should be paying more and more tax , whilst those less fortunate on the dole will get a cut and vital services which my tax euro should be paying for such as A&E services are being cut yet the 300k PS will have no cuts...Why not renage on all PS contracts and say sorry we cant afford it your now on temp contract...pay for your own damn pension and if your not working hard your sacked...Thats what happens in the private sector..and being honest I like my job I get some personal satisfaction but if I get another cut i will probably have to do as you say so I can earn more as I am not only getting pay cuts I am paying through the nostrel in taxes aswell

fliball123

Degsy wrote: »

Corporation tax is too low in this country..it needs to be increased substantially to provide more tax revenue.

And it will be!

If it is there will be a mass evacutation of MMCs do you want more on the dole and less private sector tax payers who are paying your wage...be careful what you wish for...I suppose when we are down to 400k or 500k private sector workers and the rest on the dole instead of cutting public sector pay reductions you will want to see 90% tax on employees and people cut off from the dole..once you keep your pay perks and penions in tact

ardmacha

As I say I dont see why I should be paying more and more tax , whilst those less fortunate on the dole will get a cut and vital services which my tax euro should be paying for such as A&E services are being cut yet the 300k PS will have no cuts.

.

You will be paying the same increase in tax as every other citizen, including those in the PS. As citizen you have responsibility, please stop trying to wriggle out of it.

Count Dooku

ardmacha wrote: »

.

You will be paying the same increase in tax as every other citizen, including those in the PS. As citizen you have responsibility, please stop trying to wriggle out of it.

The only difference that private sector workers will be not able to afford pay so much for their pension due abolition of tax relief and levy on pension savings, while PS pension will be left untouched

sarumite

ardmacha wrote: »

.

You will be paying the same increase in tax as every other citizen, including those in the PS. As citizen you have responsibility, please stop trying to wriggle out of it.

While I absolutely agree with this sentiment, it would add that an increase in tax would at least benefit the PS worker (in terms of keeping their wages static) and as such would be less of burden.

Count Dooku

ardmacha wrote: »

They are, actually. People in many other EU countries are receiving pay rises and will receive several more by 2014.

Because their countries can afford it, Ireland cannot

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

.

You will be paying the same increase in tax as every other citizen, including those in the PS. As citizen you have responsibility, please stop trying to wriggle out of it.

I am sorry I believe I have a right to be pissed off seeing all sectors and services bar one (ps) continuing to be cut and yet one section will not be and I will be asked to keep these people in the manner which they are accustomed...Thanks but no thanks as I say if things are not done in a fair manner in the next budget I will be doing more than wriggling I will be out protesting

Gumbo

fliball123 wrote: »

...pay for your own damn pension

i'd gladly take back my pension contributions and sort out my own pension.

sarumite

kceire wrote: »

i'd gladly take back my pension contributions and sort out my own pension.

(free bit of advice, don't)

fliball123

kceire wrote: »

i'd gladly take back my pension contributions and sort out my own pension.

Well Kc the other side of it is that some in the ps are paying through the nose to keep some of their collegues in their garenteed big pot pension..It would be fairer to turn to all in the ps and say if you want it pay for it yourself if you dont then dont...

miju

fliball123 wrote: »

But sure lets see how december goes but Mr Kenny better show some sack and do whats right

By doing right if you mean hammering the crap out of the long term doleys then I am 100% in agreement

COYW wrote: »

Social welfare and more so the fraudulent claiming of same, needs to be tackled just as much as the public sector finances.

QFT, a serious hatchet needs to be taken to Welfare first, it's actually ridiculous the amounts that alot of people are getting.

I find it galling that pensioners seem to be possibly getting hit before doleys to be honest.

fliball123 wrote: »

It would be fairer to turn to all in the ps and say if you want it pay for it yourself if you dont then dont...

Theres many in the PS that would take the option of not paying for it but they dont have that option when they join.

Though I'm sure someone will be along shortly to explain how thats the normal PS workers fault too :rolleyes::rolleyes:

fliball123

miju wrote: »

By doing right if you mean hammering the crap out of the long term doleys then I am 100% in agreement



QFT, a serious hatchet needs to be taken to Welfare first, it's actually ridiculous the amounts that alot of people are getting.

I find it galling that pensioners seem to be possibly getting hit before doleys to be honest.



Theres many in the PS that would take the option of not paying for it but they dont have that option when they join.

Though I'm sure someone will be along shortly to explain how thats the normal PS workers fault too :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I aggree with the long term Dolees but Public sector pay pension and perks should not be off the table for cuts..

miju

fliball123 wrote: »

I aggree with the long term Dolees but Public sector pay pension and perks should not be off the table for cuts..

BTW long term dole I'm talking 6 - 12 months MAX after all as everyone keeps bleating on about the country has no money.

Also , what exactly are the perks that PS workers get in the main I'm very curious as to what you think they get?

Pensions I would disagree with. Theres no fair way of doing it how to make sure a newly entered PS worker pension gets hit to the same level as a PS worker who's been paying into the pension for say 10 - 20 years ?

Not so easy to implement

Count Dooku

miju wrote: »

Pensions I would disagree with. Theres no fair way of doing it how to make sure a newly entered PS worker pension gets hit to the same level as a PS worker who's been paying into the pension for say 10 - 20 years ?

Not so easy to implement

Most of PS workers who retired or will retire soon are pre-95 and didn't contributed much into their pension. This is why it make more sense to reduce basic pay, it will reduce pensions of already retired PS workers and compensate it (partially) some other way (removal pension levy, introduction special performance related bonus etc)
BTW, typical retired PS workers will cost for state not much less then somebody working and paying taxes

ardmacha

BTW, typical retired PS workers will cost for state not much less then somebody working and paying taxes

I'm all in favour of retirees being reduced in line with people working, otherwise you make eejits of those that are keeping services going.

However, retirees too pay taxes.

murphaph

miju wrote: »

I find it galling that pensioners seem to be possibly getting hit before doleys to be honest.

Why? The pensioners have been totally isolated from any burden sharing thus far in this crisis. It's been 3 or 4 years now and they haven't been touched! The private worker has seen his taxes increased and new USC introduced, the "doley" has seen his welfare reduced and the PS worker has seen some pay cuts and their pension levy. Why on earth should one of the most cosseted sections of Irish society remain untouchable like this?

There needs to be further measures taken in all sectors tbh. Those receiving pensions should not be excluded.

irishh_bob

miju wrote: »

By doing right if you mean hammering the crap out of the long term doleys then I am 100% in agreement



QFT, a serious hatchet needs to be taken to Welfare first, it's actually ridiculous the amounts that alot of people are getting.

I find it galling that pensioners seem to be possibly getting hit before doleys to be honest.



Theres many in the PS that would take the option of not paying for it but they dont have that option when they join.

Though I'm sure someone will be along shortly to explain how thats the normal PS workers fault too :rolleyes::rolleyes:

pensioners havent faced any cuts since the onset of the rescession in 2008 , thier the group who is most due a dose of austerity , the blind , disabled and everyone else has been hit in order to shield this most important voting bloc

irishh_bob

murphaph wrote: »

Why? The pensioners have been totally isolated from any burden sharing thus far in this crisis. It's been 3 or 4 years now and they haven't been touched! The private worker has seen his taxes increased and new USC introduced, the "doley" has seen his welfare reduced and the PS worker has seen some pay cuts and their pension levy. Why on earth should one of the most cosseted sections of Irish society remain untouchable like this?

There needs to be further measures taken in all sectors tbh. Those receiving pensions should not be excluded.

pensioners havent been cut because politicans have nothing to gain from cutting them and everything to loose , due to our sentimental nature , most people subscribe to the notion that pensioners are universally poverty stricken and vulnerable , this is rarely true such is the generosity of the rate of old age pension in this country