Genocide in South Africa

easychair

jmayo wrote: »

I know I am going to be accused of all sorts with this statement, but I do think black African states are incapable of managing their own affairs.

Actually, the same could be said for Ireland and other countries around reh world. So it's not limited to some "black african states". I mean, the evidence is thst some African countries are poorly or badly led. I have worries about the future in SA myself. But I also look at Ireland and think your statement also applies, for example, and it's not just Africam states where we see evidence.

walshb

gerryandliza wrote: »

With the greatest amount of respect, wake up and smell the coffee

I'm confused?

easychair

walshb wrote: »

I'm confused?

Me too. Posts where no actual argument is advanced seem to make little or no sense, and telling someone to "wake up and smell the coffee" is a slogan, and seems pointless.

Brian?

gerryandliza wrote: »

The elections were so free and fair that when voting stations ran out of ballot papers, IEC officials ran across the road to get more from a private house!

Come on now, are you trying to say that the ANC aren't the democratically elected goverment of South Africa?

Brian?

Mohammed Future Suburbia wrote: »

What you're saying is that apartheid would have been democratic if it had the backing of the majority. Electorally, yes, it reflected the wishes of the people, but in reality it wasn't democratic as equality and freedom were trampled on, just as the aspirations of many white south africans are trampled upon in today's SA due to BEE.

It wasn't democratic because the majority of people DID NOT get to vote. That's quite the strawman you built there.

Also, it was hardly democratic of Mbeki to do everything within his power to force the Inthaka Freedom Party into merging with the ANC, and also his obsession with floor-crossing in the SA parliament over the course of the last decade - bribing many opposition politicians into joining the ANC. He was so hell bent he even managed to capture the New National Party, who's predecessors were the chief proponents of Apartheid - ideology gone out the window there - anything for entrenchment of power.

Maybe the ANC would have become another Zanu-PF if a meaningful opposition had existed in SA, but we'll never know. Given the ANC's unequivocal support of Zanu-PF - to the point that they were convinced that Zimbabwe was holding free and fair elections in 2005, there are grounds to believe this scenario.

I never said that the system in SA is perfect. All I said is that it was a democratic society. It has a huge amount of problems and they're problems that need to be solved. In historical terms, it's still a relativly new country, give that it only became a proper democratic state with the fall of Apartheid.

Brian?

jmayo wrote: »

You almost make it sound ok with your reappropriation, but it is not reappropriation it is theft for the betterment of a few, where the land is not given to the black workers on the farm who actually can farm but it is given to high ranking members and supporters of the ruling party.

You're twisting my words.

I never said what happened in Zimbabwe was right. In fact my point was that it was without a doubt wrong. I was saying you can't compare what's happening in SA with what Mugabe did. The murder of South African farmers is wrong, but it is not state sponsered theft* which is what happened in Zimbabwe.

*Yes I do believe it was theft. Reappropriation was not the right word.

g5fd6ow0hseima

briankeating wrote: »

It wasn't democratic because the majority of people DID NOT get to vote. That's quite the strawman you built there.

I'm merely probing whether the poster felt that abuses of human rights of a minority are 'democratic' if carried out by an elected government. Of course I'm going to have to use some crazy scenario in this instance.

sipuser

endabob1 wrote: »

Lets start with Malema; He is a piece of work no doubt but those calling him a member of the ruling party & suggesting him as the next president are off the mark, in real terms he's an irrelevance.

To suggest that nothing is being done about his outbursts is also not true, the ANC have censored him in the past (in relation to the "kill the Boer" song, which was at a particularly sensitive time here with the death of Eugene Terblanche)

There is a lot of rubbish that comes out of SA from all sides but the reality is 95% of violent crime happens in the townships because that's where the poorest people live, look at the riots in London if you want evidence that it's the same the world over. The farm crimes are a lot rarer than is being perceived, not denigrating it but in a country where 46 people are murdered daily, the numbers of farm killings are low compared to those killed in township violence.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=74016698

Now to Bishop Tutu - He has been a consistent voice of reason amid the clatter of nonsense in South Africa in the last decade, He has been critical of SA's stance on Zim & Mugabe


His so-called criticism of White South Africans is in fact correct, almost all my friends here are white and almost all of them have university educations, because they're parents prospered during apartheid, does this make them bad people? Not at all, it's a fact of life here, that's how things were and still are, change is slow and people living in the poorest townships have had 2 decades of being told things will get better, it's hard not to sympathise with their plight; That said the black on black xenophobia we have seen in the last few years here shows a different side of things.

I've lived here for 4 years, I've travelled a lot in the world and in SA, I know a bloke who was killed on his farm in Zim, I know someone shot on the street here in Cape Town for his Cell Phone, I'm not immune to it but I can contextualise it. I have lived in big cities and been the victim of petty crtime, my mother has been burgled in small town rural Ireland, maybe I've been lucky in SA but I've had no bad experiences here, I know there is crime, I also know that 95% of it happens in areas I would never be. Maybe that makes me a selfish racist, who knows but I like living here and I'm intelligent enough to see through the bullsh!t to get the real story.

Hi all,
I have been following this thread and decided to give my 2 cent worth. sorry about not using the quotes properly not sure how to insert them properly. Anyway would like to pick up on points made above.
I too lived in Cape Town for about 4 years up to last year and monitor events there very closely.
Firstly Malema, "in real terms he's an irrelevance" - if only this was true, he is an extremely dangerous individual who is operating without control, the current PR stunt of the ANC to dicipline him is another in many over the past couple of years, he has defied High Court Orders and in his trial earlier this year been found guilty of Hate Speech and incitement- yet he continues to publicly sing "Shoot the Boer". I would like to add that to our national embarrassment Bono earlier this year was partying with this idiot malema and encouraging him to keep singing the song. So as far as I am concerned Bono is supporting Hate Speech and incitement to murder. Many of our freedom fighters stood with the Boer on the fields of the Transvaal during the Boer war against the british.
Malema has the ear of the masses who have seen nothing from democracy, its easier to blame the whites and apartheid which ended 16 years ago than blame the corrupt ruling class of SA and specifically the ANC.

I disagree with endabob when he says 95% of crime is in the townships- true it is bad but in the suburbs and cities it is also really bad. I lived in Kommetjie a small seaside town on the peninsula, in the last year I had at least one attempt a week to break into the house, our dog was poisoned and there were shoot-out between burglars and police regularly. I had 24hr armed response linked to the alarm which I did have to call on occasions. What I think people must realise is if your house is broken into in Ireland, and yes it happens, you will not get shot, stabbed, have your wife gang raped in front of you and then killed. You simply cannot compare being broken into in Ireland with South Africa. I dont doubt that your mother being burgled in Ireland was a very traumatic experience for her but I am sure you are glad it happened in Ireland and not in SA. I think you have been lucky, I too did only had my car broken into once there, but dammit they tried hard to get into the house. Cape Town is by SA standards relatively safe.


Tutu's recent call for a "white tax" is racist and cannot be seen as anything else. Yes my white friends in Cape Town also were well educated but most were self employed, as a white professional or skilled worker you cannot get a job or promotion due to affirmative action where a person of colour HAS to be given priority regardless of qualifications or experience, this had led to the brain drain in recent years and the inevitable chaos caused by under qualified people running critical public services- eg the lack of maintenance at power plants leading to rolling power cuts all the time. The level of unemployment and increasing poverty within the white population is undeniable and largely due to reverse discrimination.

In my business activities in SA I faced huge hurdles in getting business contracts not because of economic reasons but because of government policies towards the colour of my skin- Black Economic Empowerment Policy meant that for my business to prosper I would have to sign over 48% of Equity to a Black "Investor". In reality these elite of BEE non executive directors are the cronies of the ANC and the gateway to government and civil contracts, even to supply companies I would in effect have to give a 48% bribe- and that is policy. It is there to enrich the ruling ANC not create employment or provide advancement for the ordinary black kids who are trying their best at school and college.

Ok in relation to farm attacks and genocide, anyone can argue one way or the other and get stuck on nitty details and individual points of view- from my perspective it is patently clear that the Xhosa Government of South Africa are engaged in an attempt to drive the whites out of SA, the notion of a Rainbow Nation is nonsense and a joke. Malema is the agent provocateur to stir up hatred amongst the poor masses and he IS succeeding.
I do not agree that farm attacks are rarer than perceived, it is simply the case that the South African Police stopped recording many of these events in isolation to other crimes in 2007. The nature of these attacks and the level of prolonged torture of the victims clearly defines this as a hate crime and not an "ordinary robbery murder".
One previous post disputed the comparison with ZIM saying Mugabe sent gangs of thugs to terrorise the white farmers, well if you look at the farm attacks it is exactly the same as the early days in ZIM. There are gangs of thugs ( and in fact a scary amount of police have been implicated) terrorising farms, killing off the occupants and driving survivors off the land because of fear.
The fact that genocide watch has elevated SA to level 6 and named whites and women as the at risk group cannot be ignored and dismissed. It is all too easy for us from afar to blame it on apartheid and say" well whites should leave" if we ignore the fact that whites are been systematically targeted and forced out by direct violence and economic policies and add all the comments about land ceasures and "nationalising" of mines then we are ignoring the final preparations for a violent marxist revolution in which whites will be slaughtered. The Boer have as much right to be there as any other ethnic group in SA, they are the decendants of our european forefathers, just as the Americans and Australians are.
We will see in time just what develops in SA but all the signs are bad for the future, I would love to have the optimism that I had a few years ago but the reality is somewhat different.
This tread is trying to highlight the direction that SA is going in, I sadly must agree with what has been highlighted by this tread.

walshb

That is sickening to hear that Bonehead Bono would be encouraging that behaviour. Though, problems and isues in Africa, Bono and his meddling has caused many.

irishh_bob

caseyann wrote: »

I think they should all move out of there and back to their ancestral homes offered housing by their ancestral homes.And leave those countries to their own devices. Compensated by The government of Africa.

the netherland and england is full enough already although the conservative partys in each country would benefit

Corsendonk

caseyann wrote: »

I think they should all move out of there and back to their ancestral homes offered housing by their ancestral homes.And leave those countries to their own devices. Compensated by The government of Africa.

They have, have you not noticed the amount of white South Africans working in Spars in Ireland!

I worked with plenty of white South Africans over the years, most would open up about South Africa and family life there when you got to know them, most that I knew well had only one or 2 relatives left there who were either too old to move or were waiting for the kids to finish school before joining there family here. The suicide rate among the whites is very high too, with whites replaced in jobs overnight. Of the 6 rail companies in South Africa, 5 went bankrupt when the MD was replaced with a black, the 6th company was still run by a white south african.

walshb

Corsendonk wrote: »

Of the 6 rail companies in South Africa, 5 went bankrupt when the MD was replaced with a black, the 6th company was still run by a white south african.

Those kinda' statistics will get you in trouble here.

g5fd6ow0hseima

Corsendonk wrote: »

Of the 6 rail companies in South Africa, 5 went bankrupt when the MD was replaced with a black, the 6th company was still run by a white south african.

Exactly. South African Airways earned a profit of 240 million rand in 1995 and by 1998 it had arrived at a 1 billion loss. What this shows us is that the Post-apartheid government don't care for economic performance once there's racial considerations involved. They'd rather see a competitive company ran into the ground by a bunch of brilliantly inept black people than ran well right by whites - disgusting.

Now, I know that some form of black empowerment was necessary in SA to ward off civic unrest, but in fairness, all rationality just went out the window. Given the total lack of black entrepreneurship prior to 1994, it was ludicrous to even contemplate overhauling entire industries by sacking successful individuals on the basis of race and replacing them with inadequate folk who qualify solely on the basis of their skin colour. Not to mention the ANC government put pressure on the banks to loan out exhorbitant sums to black individuals wishing to buy up white owned companies, something which MNCs profited enormously from. This, as you will know, is absolute insanity.

If SA didnt have vast mineral wealth it might just have arrived at where Zimbabwe finds itself right now, for the thinking of Mugabe & the ANC folk isn't a mile apart

sipuser

walshb wrote: »

Those kinda' statistics will get you in trouble here.

Unfortunately even if those statistics have implied racist remarks, it cannot be denied or censored. This is a huge problem when discussing any criticism of the South African Government, its ok for members of the ruling party to sing openly about shooting whites, but if you criticise them you are automatically seen as a racist!!
It is probably the main reason why western media are avoiding the subject, its just not politcally correct.
In a press conference earlier this year when Malema was going on about the poor of South Africa a BBC journalist dared to ask him how can he be representing the poor when he himself is living in Sandton (very affluent suburb of Jo'burg) and had a fleet of Merc's and Range Rovers- Malema threw the BBC guy out of the press conference calling him a "white agent" ! That journalist is now banned from ANC press conferences as far as I remember.

gerryandliza

sipuser wrote: »

Unfortunately even if those statistics have implied racist remarks, it cannot be denied or censored. This is a huge problem when discussing any criticism of the South African Government, its ok for members of the ruling party to sing openly about shooting whites, but if you criticise them you are automatically seen as a racist!!
It is probably the main reason why western media are avoiding the subject, its just not politcally correct.
In a press conference earlier this year when Malema was going on about the poor of South Africa a BBC journalist dared to ask him how can he be representing the poor when he himself is living in Sandton (very affluent suburb of Jo'burg) and had a fleet of Merc's and Range Rovers- Malema threw the BBC guy out of the press conference calling him a "white agent" ! That journalist is now banned from ANC press conferences as far as I remember.

Well said!

gerryandliza

http://www.eyewitnessnews.co.za/Story.aspx?Id=72766

Another interesting site:

http://www.censorbugbear.org/

jmayo

irishh_bob wrote: »

good post

afrikanners have a lot in common with ulster unionists , they had the upper hand for so long , they hate having to be on equal terms with thier black fellow citizens , going from a situation where your taught to believe that blacks are inherently inferior to having to perhaps work for a black is as difficult for a protestant afrikanner as it is for a protestant unionist having to get a job where a catholic nationalist is in charge , both peoples have an inbuilt arrogance and superiority complex which makes coming to terms with equality a daunting task

So then it is ok to terrorise them as some sort of punishment then ?

caseyann wrote: »

I think they should all move out of there and back to their ancestral homes offered housing by their ancestral homes.And leave those countries to their own devices. Compensated by The government of Africa.

Ehh most of these people bar the recent immigrants were born and reared in Africa and go back many generations.

Woudl you also agree that Ireland should take in 40 odd million people of Irish descend form the Americas ?

Fook with that mindset lets all of mankind head back to the horn of Africa.
Can't wait to see how concern will feed us all. :rolleyes:

easychair wrote: »

Actually, the same could be said for Ireland and other countries around reh world. So it's not limited to some "black african states". I mean, the evidence is thst some African countries are poorly or badly led. I have worries about the future in SA myself. But I also look at Ireland and think your statement also applies, for example, and it's not just Africam states where we see evidence.

Ahh FFS much hyperbole.
Ireland got independence (partial some would day) had our civil war, but then we just got on with it.
One can argue Ireland has been poorly run since independence.
We have had a particular religious group given too much influence, we had condoning of insitutional child abuse and we had some corruption where certain party connected ones did well and eventually the economy and banking system was allowed collapse.

So far we have not engaged in military coups, one party state, wars leading to mass starvation and ethnic clensing or any of the other things that Africa is noted for.

Please compare Ireland or for that matter most Eurpoean, American or Asian states to lets say :
Angola which got independence in 1975 and then proceeded to have a civil war for over 20 years with one side funded by diamonds and the other funded by oil resources.
Zimbabwe got independence and black leadership in 1979, then engaged in the Matabeleland Massacres in the early to mid 80s, then in the forced repatriation of white farms and industry from the 90s on which has turned one of the richest agricultural areas in the world into a famine starved country.
Rwanda need I go through their history
Kenya which since independence in 1963/64 have had primarily single party rule (Kenyatta and arap Moi) and at one stage had an election where the secret ballot was done away with in preference to people lining up behind their favoured candidate. :rolleyes:
Zaire/Congo - how many wars at one time are going on there.
Chana which was the first one independent in 1957 and was actually richer than South Korea at the time, yet had numerous military coups from 1965 to jerry rawlings one in 1981.
Ethiopia which had been an indpendent African state under Haile Selassie until 1974, but ended up fighting a civil wars/border wars, etc from 75 until 2000 even though the Western world were keeping a fair chunk of their population from starving to death.

Now one can say some of the above is due to colonial lines drawn on maps, outside interference by the Western world, but when the fook are Africans going to taking responsibility and start running things for the good of themselves.

Ethopian government recently asked for international aid for famine victims and the next week the government announced it was upping military spending because of border concerns with Eritrea.
Go figure that one.

anymore

gerryandliza wrote: »

I always had a lot of respect for Tutu until i read this article below

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/Politics/Tutus-white-tax-is-racist-20110813

After nearly 20 years of so called democracy, i think it is time to stop blaming apartheid for the problems that sa faces now

I hadn't read that article before - I suppose one could be generous and say it was partly on account of his age - but it is a little bit much to hear an archbishop of the Anglican Community taking that line on the wealthy - he seems to have no problems hanging out with the mega wealthy himself.

gerryandliza

anymore wrote: »

I hadn't read that article before - I suppose one could be generous and say it was partly on account of his age - but it is a little bit much to hear an archbishop of the Anglican Community taking that line on the wealthy - he seems to have no problems hanging out with the mega wealthy himself.

Desmond Tutu specified taxing the whites of South Africa.

I found a clip of it on Youtube, only the first bit isnt in english.

http://youtu.be/mfH8rQoAnRg

anymore

gerryandliza wrote: »

Desmond Tutu specified taxing the whites of South Africa.

I found a clip of it on Youtube, only the first bit isnt in english.

http://youtu.be/mfH8rQoAnRg

It would appear that quite a few ANC politicians have become quite wealthy.

gerryandliza

anymore wrote: »

It would appear that quite a few ANC politicians have become quite wealthy.

You are so right, this while so many in Sa are starving, living in shacks and dying of aids. I also want to add, that it is not widely known, but there are indeed whites living in these conditions as well. The fact that on the ads on TV asking for monetary donations for the poor african kids we only see black faces is blatant propoganda.

Nodin

walshb wrote: »

............. Similar to the racist Orangemen who oppressed Irish people in the North for so so long.

Orangemen were "racist"?

Jmayo wrote:

.............
where the leader of the youth wing of the ruling party, a guy even touted as future leader of the country is bascially espousing the forced removal of white and foreign owners of property and businesses..

This would be the same Malema there are moves to expel from the ANC?

Mohammed Future Suburbia wrote:

I'm merely probing (........) scenario in this instance. ..

You might get back to me on this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74022291&postcount=44

g5fd6ow0hseima

Nodin wrote: »

And would you apply the same thought to America with its 'Affirmative action' policy?

Discriminating against an educated, competent majority in favour of an underprivileged minority isn't the same scenario as discriminating against an educated, privileged minority in favour of a grossly incompetent majority. Now, if uneducated black people in the USA were getting top jobs over whites who then found themselves jobless due to their skin colour, then I guess we could compare, but nothing of the like has taken place in the USA - although I stand to be corrected on that one. In the USA, it was an attempt at genuine empowerment, whereas in SA, it was simply racially motivated quest to rid whites of their wealth. Putting semi-literate ANC croneys on to the boards of massive companies cannot be compared to initiatives to 'force' universities into accepting more non-whites.

Nodin

Mohammed Future Suburbia wrote: »

......... whereas in SA, it was simply racially motivated quest to rid whites of their wealth. .........

...according to you.

g5fd6ow0hseima

What else but racism could motivate the ANC to implement such economically suicidal policies?

Brian?

Mohammed Future Suburbia wrote: »

What else but racism could motivate the ANC to implement such economically suicidal policies?

Incompetitance?

I never said they were good at ruling.

SamHarris

briankeating wrote: »

Yes I can. They have free and fair elections. That is the basis of a democracy. If the majority of people vote for a Goverment with implements a particular policy, this is therefore also democratic.

No it makes it a mob rule state - elections alone do not make a democratic state, free and fair or not. For most it requires an impartiality on the part of state systems that does not exist in SA, you would not say it was democratic if it was black minority beign so clearly discriminated against. That you are so much more comfortable with the people being white is irrelevant.

Id also recommend everyone rationalising / playing down the South African states actions read the "denying genocide" article on the same site.

I would also call into question anyones opinion that so powerfully disagrees with that of organisations with no affiliations that state what is happening. How much independant research have you done that allows you to disagree so profoundly? Seems to me it is motivated by nothing more than cognitave disonance "whitey is the bad guy, not the victim" so when it looks like they MAY be the victim, something is most assuredly up.

caseyann

jmayo wrote: »

Ehh most of these people bar the recent immigrants were born and reared in Africa and go back many generations.

Woudl you also agree that Ireland should take in 40 odd million people of Irish descend form the Americas ?

Fook with that mindset lets all of mankind head back to the horn of Africa.
Can't wait to see how concern will feed us all. :rolleyes:



.

With what mindset.They arent wanted there,rather than live in fear of being murdered or tortured or terrorized,they should get the hell out of there and live in countries where they wont be.But guess what i dont believe white Africans get much look in for being refugees? Does not matter where they were born by generations they are hated so rather than die for land get the hell out.

Would i agree what?Are Irish being threatened and murdered in their thousands in America and Australia etc... :rolleyes:


You move to horn of Africa,The only interest in Africa i have is the wild life.;)

caseyann

Corsendonk wrote: »

They have, have you not noticed the amount of white South Africans working in Spars in Ireland!

I worked with plenty of white South Africans over the years, most would open up about South Africa and family life there when you got to know them, most that I knew well had only one or 2 relatives left there who were either too old to move or were waiting for the kids to finish school before joining there family here. The suicide rate among the whites is very high too, with whites replaced in jobs overnight. Of the 6 rail companies in South Africa, 5 went bankrupt when the MD was replaced with a black, the 6th company was still run by a white south african.

Yeah i have a few friends told me a story or two and will never ever go back.
Its awful to hear and always the same old story comes up but whites did it and what do they expect back.
Mind you alot of black Africans are also suffering at the hands of these people.
The only solution is for them all to get the hell out of there and leave the country to what they want it to be(No whites).And if they **** up so be it and if they dont good for them.

Nodin

Mohammed Future Suburbia wrote: »

What else but racism could motivate the ANC to implement such economically suicidal policies?

If racism is required for bad economic decisions, Europe has been in large parts run either by the Klan or Robert Mugabe.

Sam Harris wrote:

............ For most it requires an impartiality on the part of state systems that does not exist in SA, ..........

...I was unaware that had been proven,

SamHarris

caseyann wrote: »

With what mindset.They arent wanted there,rather than live in fear of being murdered or tortured or terrorized,they should get the hell out of there and live in countries where they wont be.But guess what i dont believe white Africans get much look in for being refugees? Does not matter where they were born by generations they are hated so rather than die for land get the hell out.

Would i agree what?Are Irish being threatened and murdered in their thousands in America and Australia etc... :rolleyes:


You move to horn of Africa,The only interest in Africa i have is the wild life.;)

Charming. Im sure you think those damn Arabs should go back to the desert from Palestine too? Not only is what you say rascist an childish, it is absoultly unworkable on every level.

SamHarris

Nodin wrote: »

If racism is required for bad economic decisions, Europe has been in large parts run either by the Klan or Robert Mugabe.



...I was unaware that had been proven,

I beleive someone else already pointed out the enforced "positive" discrimination?

Brian?

SamHarris wrote: »

No it makes it a mob rule state - elections alone do not make a democratic state, free and fair or not. For most it requires an impartiality on the part of state systems that does not exist in SA, you would not say it was democratic if it was black minority beign so clearly discriminated against. That you are so much more comfortable with the people being white is irrelevant.

What? Where have I said that I am comfortable that with people are being discriminated againest? I am not comfortable with anyone being discriminated againest.

I merely stated that the situation in SA was down to lawlessness and criminality and not an orchestrated government campaign of discrimination and violence againest white people.

Like it or not, SA is a democratic state. A flawed democracy, but a democracy.

Id also recommend everyone rationalising / playing down the South African states actions read the "denying genocide" article on the same site.

I would also call into question anyones opinion that so powerfully disagrees with that of organisations with no affiliations that state what is happening. How much independant research have you done that allows you to disagree so profoundly? Seems to me it is motivated by nothing more than cognitave disonance "whitey is the bad guy, not the victim" so when it looks like they MAY be the victim, something is most assuredly up.

The part in bold makes no sense to me at all. I am not being a smartarse but it really doesn't.

Everything I say is motivated by the truth. Whitey used to be the bad guy, but he saw sense and made peace with the black people of SA. Good for him. In fact I couldn't give a flying **** what colour he is. I feel sorry for the murder victims, it's terrible. But it is not a state orchestrated genocide, THAT is my point.

Nodin

SamHarris wrote: »

I beleive someone else already pointed out the enforced "positive" discrimination?

...as some could argue its merely a more robust version of Affirmative action, its hardly proof positive.

caseyann

SamHarris wrote: »

Charming. Im sure you think those damn Arabs should go back to the desert from Palestine too? Not only is what you say rascist an childish, it is absoultly unworkable on every level.

Racist???????????????????????????????????????????????????? lmao
God you are grasping at straws now,trying to create something that is not in slightest bit there.
Like the situation over there has any solution but that.

Oh p.s leave Palestine out of it.

g5fd6ow0hseima

Nodin wrote: »

If racism is required for bad economic decisions, Europe has been in large parts run either by the Klan or Robert Mugabe.

I'd imagine these bad economic decisions you allude to are the neo-liberal policies that the EU have caught on to in the past number of decades. Neoliberalism gained salience throughout the academic world in the 1980s. What the ANC have done is a classical case of cutting off their nose to spite their face - that they'd rather starve than have whites in powerful positions. Hardly 'economic' thinking, rather sheer childishness.

Corsendonk

caseyann wrote: »

Yeah i have a few friends told me a story or two and will never ever go back.
Its awful to hear and always the same old story comes up but whites did it and what do they expect back.
Mind you alot of black Africans are also suffering at the hands of these people.
The only solution is for them all to get the hell out of there and leave the country to what they want it to be(No whites).And if they **** up so be it and if they dont good for them.

How well do you know your white south african friends? Any of the South Africans or Zimmies that I know miss Southern Africa with a passion. Its been there families home for 200 years, they are no longer dutch or english. Its very easy solution for you to turn around and say they all should leave but thats there home, not Europe. Its a very simple view of life that seems to imply that we should stick to our own countries and not go mixing with foreign peoples. Would you want to send the Irish with Viking blood back to the Nordic Countries?

endabob1

sipuser wrote: »

Firstly Malema, "in real terms he's an irrelevance" - if only this was true, he is an extremely dangerous individual who is operating without control, the current PR stunt of the ANC to dicipline him is another in many over the past couple of years, he has defied High Court Orders and in his trial earlier this year been found guilty of Hate Speech and incitement- yet he continues to publicly sing "Shoot the Boer". I would like to add that to our national embarrassment Bono earlier this year was partying with this idiot malema and encouraging him to keep singing the song. So as far as I am concerned Bono is supporting Hate Speech and incitement to murder. Many of our freedom fighters stood with the Boer on the fields of the Transvaal during the Boer war against the british.
Malema has the ear of the masses who have seen nothing from democracy, its easier to blame the whites and apartheid which ended 16 years ago than blame the corrupt ruling class of SA and specifically the ANC.

My point was is that Malema is not running uncensored, he is currently being censored by the ANC and is under investigation from the Hawks & I provided links to substantiate it.
Also Malema is an irrelevance in the governing of the country, he is not in government, he probably never will be. I used the example of both Winnie Mandela, a similar rabble rousing, self styled, leader of the poor type politician who like Malema is a political irrelevance and also Malema's predecessor as ANCYL leader who was a similarly vociferous character, he has toned down his rhetoric and toed the party line.

I haven't quoted the rest of your post because of it's size but I don't dispute that there is crime in SA, I know people who have been affected & I know I have been lucky but also I have been sensible and don't take unnecessary risks, but it doesn't stop me living a great life here.
There are 46 murders a day, how many of them are white farm owners & how many are poor black people living in poverty. Now where's the genocide? The simple facts are that white media reports crimes on white people because it's more newsworthy to it's readership. The statistics show that many more black people suffer violent deaths here than white people.
In my opinion, it's not a race thing it's an economic one.

jmayo

Nodin wrote: »

...
This would be the same Malema there are moves to expel from the ANC?

It is harder to be expelled from the ANC than from ff.
Why is it taking them so long and why is he allowed just spout utter drivel.
He has given the two fingers to the ANC leadership and yet he remains in his position.
He went to Zimbabwe and stuck his nose in at the same time as zuma was actually supposedly trying to broker a peace deal between mugabe and Tsvangirai.
In fact malema went out of his way to attack Tsvangirai party and returned to South Africa and got the ANC youth league to issue statements saying South African youth should follow mugabe's example.

Weird thing is zuma gave the visit his blessing which kinda shows that ANC leadership are tolerating this guy and that leads me to believe that just maybe his utterances or ideas aren't a million miles from their own.

He has attacked journalists including having the ANC youth league release private information of a journalist who questioned his state contracts.
He has been convicted of hate speech and supposedly censored for singing "Shoot the Boer".
In fact the singing of the song was found by a court to be an incitement to hatred and even murder, but guess what the ANC have appealed the ruling.:rolleyes:

The guy has at some stage or other gone against the leadership including having a go at zuma yet there he is still the leader of the Youth League, still espousing the redistribution of land without compensation, the nationalisation of the mines and inciting hatred against whites. :rolleyes:

caseyann wrote: »

With what mindset.They arent wanted there,rather than live in fear of being murdered or tortured or terrorized,they should get the hell out of there and live in countries where they wont be.But guess what i dont believe white Africans get much look in for being refugees? Does not matter where they were born by generations they are hated so rather than die for land get the hell out.

Would i agree what?Are Irish being threatened and murdered in their thousands in America and Australia etc... :rolleyes:

You move to horn of Africa,The only interest in Africa i have is the wild life.;)

Another poster accused you of racism and being simplistic.
I don't agree with the first part, but I do with the second.
Should the Catholic nationalists have moved out of Northern Ireland in 1923 ?
After all they were not wanted by the majority and were downtrodden.
Should the protestant unionists move out of Northern Ireland now ?
Some of the whites living in South Africa havealready fled from Zimbabwe and made their homes there.
Some of the whites living in South Africa have never seen the Uk or the Netherlands, their ancestors left 2 or 3 hundred years ago.

I do conceed you do have a valid point that at some stage they may, for their own safety, be better off getting to hell out and leaving the place to the so called natives.

The other interesting thing is what about people of Indian descent, should they also leave as happened in Uganda?

Nodin wrote: »

If racism is required for bad economic decisions, Europe has been in large parts run either by the Klan or Robert Mugabe.

There are bad economic decisions European or Irish style and their bad economic decisions African style.
Comparing the two is like comparing apples and potatoes.

The bad economic decisions in Ireland or Europe normally don't involve the rulers and their families leaving with suitcases full of loot for a Swiss bank as they sell out their own people and their nations resources.
AFAIK as bad as ff were I reckon they didn't leave with suitcases stashed full of loot and their bad economic decisions pale into insignificance to some of the stuff that has gone in Africa.
Then again one might never know about ones like john "mugabe" o'donoghue.

AlekSmart

SamHarris wrote: »

No it makes it a mob rule state - elections alone do not make a democratic state, free and fair or not. For most it requires an impartiality on the part of state systems that does not exist in SA, you would not say it was democratic if it was black minority beign so clearly discriminated against. That you are so much more comfortable with the people being white is irrelevant.

A very interesting point and with relevance far beyond just S.A.
There is a somewhat naieve belief amongst many that the "Free & Fair" Election is a panacea for many if not all Ill's.

Such elections merely facilitate a given political/social situation,it's what the resultant Governments actually DO that makes the equation whole !

Nodin

Mohammed Future Suburbia wrote: »

............. What the ANC have done is a classical case of cutting off their nose to spite their face - that they'd rather starve than have whites in powerful positions. ............

Thats your take of it, which would seem to vary greatly from the reality.

jmayo wrote:

Why is it taking them so long and why is he allowed just spout utter drivel.

The whole "freedom of speech" and democratic/judicial process thing, that some others seem to think doesn't exist in South Africa.

sipuser

endabob1 wrote: »

My point was is that Malema is not running uncensored, he is currently being censored by the ANC and is under investigation from the Hawks & I provided links to substantiate it.
Also Malema is an irrelevance in the governing of the country, he is not in government, he probably never will be.

We can agree to dissagree about Malema, I could also provide a multitude of links supporting the fact that despite numerous previous ANC "disciplinary" hearings, investigations and high court interdicts he has not been silenced from inciting the uneducated masses to kill whites. His influence unfortunately cannot be underestimated.

endabob1 wrote: »

There are 46 murders a day, how many of them are white farm owners & how many are poor black people living in poverty. Now where's the genocide?

Undoubtedly there are many crimes against the black community, murder rape robbery. Of the 46 murders per day at least a few are farm attacks with other black on white race motivated. I think what is important is to differentiate between these types of murders. The shocking nature of the farm attacks where there is prolonged torture and dehumanisation of the victims is why it is being classified as genocide.

The original post on this tread is highlighting the fact that Genocidewatch an internationally respected NGO with many leading Human rights scholars and International Law experts ( http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutus/directorsandadvisors.html ), it has now elevated whites and women (of all races) to level 6 of the 8 stages of Genocide. True mass exterminations are not happening yet, Level 6 is a warning to the world, that unless something drastic changes it is recognised that mass genocide is very likely to occur.

To remind everyone of the status as it NOW:

[FONT=arial, verdana, sans-serif]6. PREPARATION: Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. Death lists are drawn up. Members of victim groups are forced to wear identifying symbols. Their property is expropriated. They are often segregated into ghettoes, deported into concentration camps, or confined to a famine-struck region and starved. At this stage, a Genocide Emergency must be declared. If the political will of the great powers, regional alliances, or the U.N. Security Council can be mobilized, armed international intervention should be prepared, or heavy assistance provided to the victim group to prepare for its self-defense. Otherwise, at least humanitarian assistance should be organized by the U.N. and private relief groups for the inevitable tide of refugees to come.[/FONT]

Level 7 is Extermination!

If you look at the description and look at some of the rhetoric from the ANC and ANC youth and then for example the constitutional court only yesterday clearing the way for Land to be taken without compensation for the national interest. There have been numerous government ministers who have indicated that nationalisation of the mining sector will happen.
Take into account ANC's open support and praise of Mugabe's model, look at how they have been supporting Gadaffi over the past months and only yesterday blocked attempts to release frozen Gadaffi assets to the Lybian people.

Amongst the black community in South Africa this impending genocide of whites even has a name "Uhuru" - google it and see, search for it on facebook and see some of the open hate speech on these groups. It is pretty disturbing. The catalyst for Uhuru is the death of Mandela, which by all recent accounts of his health cannot be too far away.

The bottom line is this, South Africa is on the brink of full scale genocide, Genocidewatch is recognised by the UN, and under the UN charter as of last week all white South Africans have the legal right to claim political asylum.

Nodin

sipuser wrote: »

...........

The bottom line is this, South Africa is on the brink of full scale genocide, Genocidewatch is recognised by the UN, and under the UN charter as of last week all white South Africans have the legal right to claim political asylum.

Bit of a failure in the chain of logic there. The UN have to rule that Genocide is in fact occurring. Seeing as in fact they haven't when it undisputably was in the past, a simple declaration from a single NGO is hardly going to cut it now.

endabob1

sipuser wrote: »

The bottom line is this, South Africa is on the brink of full scale genocide, Genocidewatch is recognised by the UN, and under the UN charter as of last week all white South Africans have the legal right to claim political asylum.

Honestly the only "evidence" to back this claim up is the genocidewatch web site, where it makes no claim to be recognised by the UN.....

And white south Africans have already claimed asylum
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/01/canada-south-africa-asylum-seeker

I'm going to back out of this because I feel there is an agenda behind it.

I read the paper every day, I live and breathe with South African air, I watch the news both independent and not so independent, I know there are problems here "on the brink of full scale genocide" is not one of them.

Jelle1880

It's used as a resource for the UN.

gerryandliza

endabob1 wrote: »

I'm going to back out of this because I feel there is an agenda behind it.

I started this thread to raise awareness of what is really happening in SA and the direction in which the country is going. I have read through all the responses and would to thank everyone for their comments and input.

I don't know how you can say that you feel there is a hidden agenda here, facts are facts. We can chose to ignore or deny them or can debate them in a mature and constructive way.

South Africa IS heading downhill fast and this is now being recognised by a well respected organisation who do report to the UN on their findings.

Jelle1880

To be fair to the OP, before the World Cup in SA I was shown a link to someone's blog which depicted the decline of Johannesburg.

It's shocking, parts of the city look like the favella's you'd find in Rio de Janeiro etc., this all from a place which used to be one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

http://deathofjohannesburg.blogspot.com/

Nodin

Jelle1880 wrote: »

To be fair to the OP, before the World Cup in SA I was shown a link to someone's blog which depicted the decline of Johannesburg.

It's shocking, parts of the city look like the favella's you'd find in Rio de Janeiro etc., this all from a place which used to be one of the most beautiful cities in the world.

http://deathofjohannesburg.blogspot.com/

This is what happens when you can't put the poor people in a truck and throw them in a bantustan.

Jelle1880

Nodin wrote: »

This is what happens when you can't put the poor people in a truck and throw them in a bantustan.

Or when you give certain jobs to people based on the color of their skin, instead of qualifications.

Nodin

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Or when you give certain jobs to people based on the color of their skin, instead of qualifications.

The democratically elected government that came to power in 1994 inherited an economy wracked by long years of internal conflict and external sanctions. Against that backdrop, economic performance since 1994 has been impressive.

http://www.oecd.org/document/63/0,3343,en_2649_34577_40981951_1_1_1_1,00.html


No, you'll find its what I said. Seeing as people aren't herded into the bantustans, and there are no racial restrictions on areas anymore, poverty is no longer confined to townships, nor is the crime and violence.