cruciate ligaments injury

awman

hi,

sorry if this is a bit long winded.....

My 20 month old female bullmastiff was suffering from pyometra (womb infection) and therefore had her spayed. When she had the pyometra she also started limping on her back leg. The vet seemed to think she was limping because she was so tender with the womb infection (it was a very bad infection) and we were told that once we had her spayed and the womb infection all sorted that she should stop limping. She was spayed two weeks ago and we had to bring her to vet on Monday to get her stitches out. we told the vet that the limping hadn't improved. He took a closer look at her leg and said there seemed to be grinding of bones around her knee so we straight away booked her in with a vet in the city (our vet only has a small practice and doesnt have any way of doing xrays etc). We brought her to the new vet yesterday evening. He seems to think that its a problem with her "cruciate ligament" in her knee. He kept her over night to do xrays today. We were told to ring them at 3 o'clock today. When we rang the girl on reception wouldnt tell us anything, just said the vet would rather speak to us himself this evening. I'm so worried. If it is a problem with the cruciate ligament (which i've myself convinced it is!) then she'll need major surgery. Really i'm just wondering has anybody else had any experience of this? I know it is going to cost a small fortune but that's not bothering me, i'll beg, steal and borrow the money if i have to. I dont care as long as she will be ok. i'm going out of my mind with worry

andreac

Have you got your dog insured?

Cruciate ligament injuries are quite common in larger breeds. It is a big op, but they do recover from it but its a very long recovery process with a lot of restricted exercise, cage rest etc so be prepared to have to deal with this and it can months to fully heal from this.

awman

no unfortunately we dont have her insured

Will she be able to walk after surgery or will she have to be carried to the toilet etc? do they put some kind of cast on her leg or is it free to move etc? its going to be so hard to keep her from damaging it again. she is a bullmastiff so she's pretty big. my husband can lift her (just about) but there's no way that i can.

I dont even know for sure yet if that is what is wrong but I have a gut feeling it is. The vet more or less said it was but i suppose he didnt want to say for sure until he did the xrays. We have to go in at 6.30 this evening to speak to him.

does anyone have any idea roughly what the cost of this surgery is? obviously whatever it is i'll have to find from somewhere because there's no other option.

andreac

She will be able to walk, she will prob just hold the leg up. Dogs can manage quite well on 3 legs actually.

She wont be allowed off the lead at all at the start and you will probably have to crate her to stop her moving around.

Its not an easy process but you have to be prepared to put in the work and not rush the recovery process. I know a lot of people with rotties that have had their cruciates repaired and it can take up to 6 months to fully heal. Its a slow, gradual process.

I dont think they put a cast on the leg, maybe a bandage initially to protect the wound and the stitches.

I think the cost will be over €1000, or in and around that.

awman

Andreac, thank you so much for replying. I'm relieved to hear that she will be able to walk afterwards. i was so worried that she would have to be lifted in and out to the toilet. i understand though that movement will be very restricted and she will have to be practically wrapped in cotton wool for a few months after surgery. I'm willing to do whatever it takes for her to be happy and healthy again.

There's Nothing worse than seeing her unwell. First the pyometra, then the operation for her to be spayed which she has only barely recovered from and now this.... the poor thing is really having a rough time of it!

andreac

You poor thing, you must be so worried about your little girl. Pyo can be very serious so you are lucky you caught it and she is going to be ok from that.

Yeah the Cruciate is a tough one but the main thing is that you take your time and dont rush the recovery, they can and do make a full recovery. I know someone whos dog had both their cruciates operated on and theres not a bother on him now so try not to worry too much;)

DBB

Jayney Awman,
Your poor oul dog is really in the wars, isn't she?:o
Cruciate surgery is quite a common procedure these days, but not all vets have the specific expertise to do the surgery. It is an expensive procedure, Andreac is probably not too far off the mark with her estimate.
What part of the country are you in, in case you'd like recommendations for vets who specialise in this surgery? My vet is shockingly affordable for ops that usually cost a blue fortune, and is highly trained in orthopaedic surgery. I'd think she does at least one cruciate surgery a week.

tk123

My dog has a hock deformity and had one of his legs straightened last year. The operation was pretty similar to a TPLO so a wedge of bone cut out and the bones were aligned with a plate and pins. it cost around €1800 which included him staying down in Cork for 5 nights as I couldn't get time off during the week - we left him down on the Sunday and collected him the following Saturday - the longest drive ever lol to go and get him
He was able to walk on it but it was well bandaged up - he actually surprised me because he seemed to bear weight on it and didn't hop as much as i thought he would. At his first dressing change our vet put a big bulky bandage on to try and immobilise him and slow him down more lol because he was walking on it. He had 2 wound checks/dressing changes with our vet then the stitches came out 10 days after the op - it felt safer with the dressing on - his leg looked really vunerable to being whacked off the crate etc once the dressings were off and stitches were out! He was on strict crate rest for 4 weeks - only allowed out 3 times a day to go to the loo and on the lead at all times. I got hall runners in Ikea for €11 each and laid them along the path from the crate to the doors so he wouldn't slip on the wooden floors. After the 4 weeks he was allowed out of the crate and short walks starting at 10 mins and increasing by 5 every few days - NB the mistake I made here was letting my guy out of the crate full time rather than supervised time for the first few weeks - he hurt himself after 2 weeks and had to go back in the crate for 2 weeks . It was very very scary as we didn't know if a pin had come loose but he was ok. After that I let him out a few hours a day until he got used to being out - any messing like jumping around and he'd be back in the crate. 13 weeks after the op he was allowed off lead - it was brilliant Since the op he basically has a life - he can walk for an hour and not get sore, he swims and does hydrotherapy, he goes to daycare twice a week, he can run off lead with his friends - before after 20 mins walking we'd have to head home because he'd get sore and tired. Also he's not on any medication which had worried me when he was on it for a while before the op as I had read it can cause eg liver problems. He was down for a review on Monday and the vet was really pleased with him and how well he's done. He's going to be getting the second leg done in October and it's not scary this time around as we know what to expect and what to do. As the vet said the operation itself isn't that difficult it's taking the time and effort needed to allow it to heal

Tips
Get a crate or fence off an enclosed area in advance to get her used to it - the area needs to be big enough for the dog to stand up and turn around. We had 2 crates and split his time between the kitchen in the morning and then the sitting room in the evening so he'd have company
Feed her meals in Kongs when she's in the crate
Get some nylabones and chew toys - i wouldn't recommend giving bones as it'll mess up the bedding in the crate
Get some extra bedding as it gets a bit smelly with them sitting on it all the time - we just used bath towels and changed it every day
If you have wooden floors/tiles get some mats to prevent slipping
Work out what your routine will be - once you get her into a routine she'll be more settled in the crate
Get a clicker and a book/look up some tricks that can be done with the dog lying/sitting down eg leave/take it,touch, which hand, look, stay(build up time you can leave her in the crate), wipe your nose etc
Once the dressings are off take pictures of the leg every day - this way you can compare pictures eg if you think the leg is swollen all of a sudden
Take a photo of the xray when the vet shows you after the op - I didn't do it last time but will do it this time. When i saw the xray after he hurt himself it was a big wake up call seeing it again and realizing it was still healing etc. Also I know it'll help everyone stay focused on why he's on crate rest - "aww can we not let him out and lie there etc etc"
Be TOUGH - don't give in to the saucer eyes asking to be let out, keep them on the lead, don't feel guilty because it's for their own good.

Blueprint

tk123 has given you some great advice there.

I'm on week seven after a traditional repair with my terrier cross - he was on restricted exercise for months before hand as the vet was convinced that a dog of his weight and age should heal on his own but he didn't, so we had to go with the surgery in the end.

My guy had a traditional repair, which is less invasive, but since it only stabilises the knee for a while and then relies on scar tissue to form to actually hold the knee in place long term, the recovery time is longer than with the TPLO and I've read that it's best to restrict exercise for up to a full year after the traditional as there's no way of telling how strong the scar tissue is. The TPLO is stable as soon as the bone heals (8-10 weeks typically) and after that it's all just rehab.

My dog is easy to carry at 13.5KG, which was a huge help, but he could walk on 3 legs for peeing etc. no problem. He started taking his first few steps on it when looking for a place to pee at day 8, after which he was using it slightly more each day. He was crated except for toilet breaks for the first 3 weeks and then I blocked off a section of the living room for him so he had his crate and a bit of an area to stretch out in next to it. I also got him an X pen for outside so he could sit in the garden for a bit of and sniff - we're still using that so it was worth it.

I won't lie to you, the first week was pretty tough, but after that we got into a routine and at 4 weeks we got the go ahead to start short walks a few times a day (we started with 5 minutes and are upping it by 5 mins a week), which really helps you feel you're making progress.

Loads of chewy stuff is invaluable - I couldn't really do any clicker training with my guy as he gets over excited and tends to try and jump around when doing it!

There's a brilliant support group on Yahoo called Orthodogs that have loads of files with good suggestions and support which is well worth joining even if you don't want to post on it. They all swear by the ruffwear harness for helping you support your dog when walking etc: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/search/ref=sr_nr_scat_471382031_ln?rh=n%3A471382031%2Ck%3Aruffwear&keywords=ruffwear&ie=UTF8&qid=1314283621&scn=471382031&h=b825699179aeb1a750f1d86bf60850d6dc92f7f7

At 7 weeks, he's now walking pretty well as long as he goes slowly and he is allowed to follow me around the house a bit, I have the living room gated off for him to hang out in when I can't supervise him. It's still quite hard in a way, as there are days he limps a bit more than others and I'm freaking out that the surgery has failed, but the nerves are settling down a bit at this stage. My real milestone will be when he finally consistently puts weight on the leg when he's standing, as this was his first symptom of having a cruciate issue.

awman

thank you so much to everyone for replying. ye have given me such good advice about the aftercare. i'm really freaking out but i know it has to be done.

We went in to see the vet on Wednesday evening but unfortunately he was in the middle of surgery when we got there so we had to speak with the other vet in the practice. she doesnt do any of the surgery so she wasnt really able to tell us that much about what will be happening. Basically she showed us the xrays and it is definitely her cruciate ligament that is the problem so she definitely needs the surgery. We were told to bring lulu home for a few days and that the vet would phone us and let us know what our options are, the cost involved etc. There's no other option in our eyes other than getting this surgery that she needs done so we've made up our minds already that we'll be going ahead with it. The last thing we want is for her to be in pain or for it to get worse. The lady vet told us that she already has arthiritis (the poor thing, she's only 20 months) so i suppose the quicker we get the surgery done the better.

We havent received a phone call from the vet yet to go through everything with us but most likely we'll be getting the surgery done next week. Hate putting her through it as its only been 2 and a half weeks since we had her spayed because she got pyometra. They gave us pain killers for her so hopefully she's not in too much discomfort. i'm only working part time at the moment so i've literally been lying beside her since she got home wed nite. its all ahead of us next week and i'm so worried about it but i suppose the sooner its done the better.

i'll have to buy one of those crates to put her in cause we dont have one. where can u buy them and are they expensive? She's not gonna be happy about that at all!! she's used to taking up the whole couch and me sitting on the edge squashed, being put into a crate is going to be an ordeal in itself! my husband starts work earlier than i do so i'm normally in bed for about an hour after he gets up and lulu's used to getting up on the bed and cuddling with me for the hour, there'll be no more of that! god it's going to be so hard on her

I really hope the vet that we are bringing her to is good. I'm living in county limerick so our normal vet has only a small practice in the country. the vet we are bringing her to for the surgery is in the city. we have never used him before so we dont know what he's like. he seems really nice, i just hope he's good at what he does.

Thanks again to everyone who replied. fingers crossed that everything will go according to plan and she'll be right as reign in a few months time.

andreac

Try not to worry, im sure it sounds terrible but you will get through it. You sounds like a very caring owner so im sure your dog will be just fine.

Regarding the crate, look online for 2nd hand ones in the likes of adverts.ie, donedeal and gumtree, there are loads. For your dog you will need at least a 42" one to be comfortable enough in. I recently got a 36" one for 35 from adverts.ie so keep an eye out and dont be afraid to bargain or make an offer which is what i did and got it cheaper than what was advertised.

Dont worry about her not liking the crate as most dogs actually love it. Its like a little safe haven or den for them. My big male rottie loves his and stands outside it waiting for me to open the door so he can go in all the time.

Just make it pleasant for her, lots of nice treats, chews, toys etc when shes in there so she associates it with nice things. You might not even need to use it as much as you think, as she could be a really good patient and not need to be put into it too much so just play it by ear.

tk123

I can't seem to find the thread but think it was TillyGirl who recommended this site (the site has a new name since the thread) - http://www.jebbtools.ie/Category/Dog-crates?gclid=CLjGqP7t7KoCFUOHDgodamd_Pg
They're really good prices for the bigger crates. If I go with one from here I'll be getting XXLarge for my retriever.
I start feeding my guy's meals in Kongs for the weeks leading up to the surgery to get him used to the crate. Once he was stuffing his face he forgot he was in it lol! Try and get her used to the crate asap so she associates it with food and treats and sees it as a secure/comforting den.

It's hard the first few days but once you get into a routine it'll fly by. Someone on here gave me the same advice when we were starting out (thanks whoever it was lol) - once you get the first week over the rest will fly by. You'll be taking care of the leg, watching it for changes etc so having that job and responsibility will give you the strength to stay tough and get on with the task at hand.

Here's what our routine was like. As he got into a routine he'd sleep most of the day so he may not have had a loo break at lunchtime - he'd tell us if he wanted to go out. Also I cheated and would give him 4 or even 5 loo breaks if needed to tie in with when he'd usually go eg in the morning. He would only poo out the front but if he got distracted by a noise he wouldn't do anything so we'd have to try again later. :rolleyes:

6:30am - Out to loo (wee)

6:35am - Breakfast in an XL Kong - I made the kongs up the day before and left them in the fridge so they'd last him longer - freezing doesn't work for him as he gets frustrated and cries lol I started with 1 then 2 then 4 XL kongs - 2 on the go and 2 in the dishwasher :pac: Also I played it safe with his meals and fed him senstivity control

7:25 - out to the loo again (poo), some kong paste/mamite/peanut butter on his nylabone and I'd go to work (my mam was minding him)

12:00 - dental stick/treat - possibly out to the loo again if he was up, paste etc on the nylabone

4:00 - dindins

5:00 - Home from work - out to the loo. Some clicker games for a while to settle him, he'd snooze and then some more games

9:00 - Out to the loo, bonio before bed and a chew on his nylabone

awman

We had to postpone the surgery for a little while as the painkillers that the vet prescribed for her did not agree with her. she was on them about 5 days when she started vomiting and had very bad diarrhea. The poor thing was passing alot of blood too. She was so sick. We brought her to the vet the next morning and he kept her in for the day. He sent her home that evening with medication to rectify the damage that the painkillers had done to her stomach. So we had no choice but to put off the surgery on her knee for a while. She came right after a week or two and we booked her in for the surgery for last monday (the 19th sept). everything went ok thank god. The only thing the vet said was unfortunate was that the cartilage was so badly damaged that he had to completely remove it. He says that this will inevitably result in her having arthiritis in the future. Other than that everything went good. Its 7 days today since she had the operation. She is doing fairly well but because of her size and weight (she's 40kg) its very difficult to manage her. My husband has to lift her in and out to the toilet which is proving almost impossible but we're getting there. She has to take a trip to the vet this evening to have the bandage removed, i'm not looking forward to trying to get her into the car again! i'm finding it tough to be honest. I feel so sorry for her. She always seems to be so uncomfortable. She's no sooner in a position when she's trying to shift to another position. We have her on a different type of painkiller which seems to be giving her some relief. I just find it really hard to see her so down. Myself and my husband were off work all last week so we were at home with her 24/7 which was great. Today though we are both back to work so i've had to leave her in the crate with that horrible cone thing on so that she cant go at the stitches. She looked so sad this morning when i was leaving, i feel so guilty. wish i could be at home with her for a few more days, at least until she gets the stitches out but unfortunately i cant. I cant wait until the stitches are out and she wont have to wear the cone around her head any more! she HATES it!!!

awman

Myself and my husband both work near to home so we went home at lunch time today to check on her and bring her out to the toilet etc. She had made smithereens (sp?) of the cone! literally was hanging off her in a few pieces when we got home. We had to leave her for the rest of the day with none on. I hope to god she wont go at the stitches. I knew she'd make it her business to get it off, she was trying her devil best this morning before i left for work. fingers crossed when we go home this evening she wont have gone at her stitches. She still has the bandage on but it has slipped down quite a bit over the last few days and there are probably about 5 stitches showing now. She'll be getting the bandage off this evening so all the stitches will be easy to reach once that's off. I left her kong in the crate with her and i also gave her a treat of a jumbone cause she loves them. What do ye normally put into the kong? I only bought it recently enough and i'm not sure what to put into it. I've just been putting in small little treats but she gets them out easily enough and it doesnt really keep her occupied for very long. Are you supposed to freeze it?
By the way, just want to say thanks to tk123 for recommending the jebbtools website for the crates. that's where we ended up getting the crate for her as it was very reasonably priced.

Cutie18Ireland

I put peanut butter in kongs here and then freeze it, puppies love it

tk123

I put his meals in the kongs - so one for breakfast and one for dinner. I packed it in and left them in the fridge overnight - if i freeze them he gives out lol. The countdown is on for us - he's booked in for the 25th of october - in and out in the same day! His new crate came last week - I can comfortabley sit in it and take up half of it lol so he'll have plenty of space. For the cone and stitches i'm not sure what to suggest (we told him to leave it and he did so we didn't need a cone) - i did overhear a call down in the vets where somebody was having the same issue and wanted to know if they could put a baskerville muzzle on their dog and the nurses said it'd be fine. Not sure if that's an option for you - would she get upset with it on also would it be safe to leave it on unattended?

awman

when we got home from work yesterday evening she hadnt gone at the stiches anyway thank god. we brought her to the local vet to get the bandage removed. He actually put on a clean bandage so at least now her stitches are covered again and we wont have to worry about her going at them. she seemed to be a bit happier in herself last night and seems to be getting used to the crate. i put peanut butter and some crunchy treats into the kong last night and put it in the freezer. i gave it to her this morning when i was leaving to go to work and she seemed to love it. when i went home at lunch time she still hadnt everything eaten out of it so at least its keeping her occupied for a good length of time.

tk123, we were the same, we dropped our dog in for the surgery at 9am and collected her again that evening at 6pm to bring her home. The poor thing was fairly zonked out of it. All the best of luck for your dog... i hope the surgery goes well.