Red Arrows - GAAW

celty

Discodog wrote: »

Rubbish. The Airshow drew huge crowds, easily the biggest for any local event. That is real democracy. The Council didn't support it & the GAAW opposed it. Some of the local businesses that made money out of it also didn't want to contribute to what was a free event for the public.

You will notice that plenty of other towns & Cities in Ireland are happy to run an Airshow & welcome military aircraft.

Even though we are on different sides of this debate, Discodog, it is a very valid point to say that some local businesses didn't support it. Basically, many businesses in Salthill made a fortune by having 100,000 people in the area, but never put a cent in to helping out the organisers. That's been the way in Salthill for 20 years, it was once the 'night life zone' of Galway but all the business drifted away because the pubs and clubs put little or nothing back in.

Anyway, I'm glad the airshow doesn't exist any more. I find it objectionable to bring children out to the sea front to celebrate planes which glorify war and the destruction or annihilation of innocent people. It seemed to become more and more militarised in the later years.

Discodog

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So the ELECTED Council VOTED to not support it? How much more democratic do you want, huh?
The people of Galway therefore decided they didn't want the airshow. Blame freedom baby.

So Councils & Governments enact the will of the people ?
Did we vote for financial chaos ?
Did we vote for traffic chaos in Galway ?
And we didn't vote to stop the Airshow

celty wrote: »

Anyway, I'm glad the airshow doesn't exist any more. I find it objectionable to bring children out to the sea front to celebrate planes which glorify war and the destruction or annihilation of innocent people. It seemed to become more and more militarised in the later years.

Clearly the 100,000 spectators would not agree.

Dan_Solo

Discodog wrote: »

So Councils & Governments enact the will of the people ?
Did we vote for financial chaos ?
Did we vote for traffic chaos in Galway ?
And we didn't vote to stop the Airshow

No, we voted in a council to do more or less as they will. They don't want an airshow. If you have a problem with that you shouldn't have voted for that particular council.
100,000 people might have gone to Salthill, but they didn't "vote" for anything. 99.99% don't appear to have even raised a peep when the airshow was cancelled by the council they elected.
Hallelujah democracy!

yer man!

I know when I was there as a young child I never really thought about the war side of things, I knew SOME of these planes were used in war but I was there to see the pilots skills in maneuvering the aircraft. Seeing the red arrows fly in formation and suddenly fly vertically up into the clouds was just really cool to watch. I was even impressed to see how agile some of the commercial airliners were who took part in the show. I wasn't there to glorify war I know war isn't right...., I just thought these machines were very impressive bits of engineering. If we're talking about glorifying war then should we stop all army recruitment ads on television, stop the army from taking part in the st. patricks day parade? Seeing a tank drive through town is sorta glorifying war too, I know we're a neutral country but it can still kill people...

Eman Resu

No more than guns, millitary aircraft don't kill people, other people do, an F-16 would rust apart without a pilot (/government with an agenda) to keep it running! You might as well hang around outside a maternity ward and give out about all the "potential killers" being manufactured in the place! I guess stop blaming technology for how it is used?

lucianot

I see children playing in front of my house every day, the pretend to kill each other. Jsut that, is in our nature. You can forbid all the airshows you like, all the weapons you want but someone will come up reinventing the bow.

biko

Eman Resu wrote: »

No more than guns, millitary aircraft don't kill people, other people do, an F-16 would rust apart without a pilot (/government with an agenda) to keep it running! You might as well hang around outside a maternity ward and give out about all the "potential killers" being manufactured in the place! I guess stop blaming technology for how it is used?

"People don't post on boards, computers do..."
I think the gun/plane helps a lot, don't you?

scholar007

celty wrote: »

Anyway, I'm glad the airshow doesn't exist any more. I find it objectionable to bring children out to the sea front to celebrate planes which glorify war and the destruction or annihilation of innocent people. It seemed to become more and more militarised in the later years.

Then don't bring the childer out to see it - Simples!

Military aircraft are meant to be manouverable and thrown about to some extent. Commercial airliners are not. No matter what way you look at it Aer Arann flying up and down in a straight line is just not sexy. Give me a good ol fighter jet anyday!

Predalien

Discodog wrote: »

So Councils & Governments enact the will of the people ?
Did we vote for financial chaos ?
Did we vote for traffic chaos in Galway ?
And we didn't vote to stop the Airshow

No but we chose to ignore all the warnings and continued to elect a government and party obsessed with cheap vote buying policies - we were told by europe (and many economists) to stop increasing spending at the same time as lowering taxes, but most didn't mind because there was more money in our pockets.

We didn't vote for traffic chaos but we have an obsession with car ownership and an unusual reluctance to embrace public transport, walking, cycling. Combine this with an obession with home ownership which allowed for huge population bases to develop in areas miles from employment, schools etc. and you get traffic chaos. You get the government and policies you deserve, that's democracy.

As for the airshow, it simply wasn't viable, an afternoon of mostly families (who rarely spend much on food, drink, shopping etc.) visiting the city didn't bring in enough money to make it suitable for local business to support it with the funds necessary, we didn't spend enough, so it wasn't viable - that's democracy. I'll say it again even though the point has been made, the GAAW didn't get the airshow cancelled, lack of funding did, their protests had no impact on the crowds attending and barely raised a murmur amongst most people.

Dan_Solo

Eman Resu wrote: »

No more than guns, millitary aircraft don't kill people, other people do, an F-16 would rust apart without a pilot (/government with an agenda) to keep it running! You might as well hang around outside a maternity ward and give out about all the "potential killers" being manufactured in the place! I guess stop blaming technology for how it is used?

In that case a boycott of the people flying them would be more appropriate I suppose? You can send your planes, but no pilots, thanks!:D

squonk

Reading this thread makes me mad that there are a bunch of people out there with little better to do with their time than object to airshows.

The fact is, no large nation is suddenly going to ground their fleet of F-16's military aircraft because there's no Galway Air Show anymore. Frankly, if you want to adopt the anti-war excuse for boycotting the air show, then you might as well extend that to Athletics as well because sports such as Javelin evolved from spear throwing, which was a pretty useful skill to have in war. People who could run like the clappers made good soldiers and people who could run marathons made good reconnaissance officers. War has been happening for thousands of years and, sadly, will continue for thousands of years to come. it's our nature and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Just as I love to watch the 100m Olympic final, I love watching air displays by the Red Arrows or any other display team also at airshows. Getting to see a few bi-planes, the CASA and an Aer Arann turbo prop is good but seeing some fighters is far better, and incredibly impressive. I've been thrilled to bits the times I saw these aircraft doing their thing. I'd be equally thrilled to bits if a 787 or A380 did a low fly by because it's the technology that excites me and is a testament to how far we've come in just over 100 years since manned flight began. Yes I know that a lot of the aircraft could be used to drop bombs in a war setting but I personally don't have the ability to single-handedly stop wars just because I want to. If I felt a great enough objection I'd stay at home probably but I'm a lover of science and technology and that will keep me coming back to airshows again and again wherever they are held.

Finally, we were/are neutral in name only. During WW2 we hapilly repatriated downed allied pilots across the border and if we weren't conveniently close enough to the border they were conveniently allowed to escape. We weren't too hard on our German PoW's either but they didn't really have the luxury of escaping back german occupied teritory. Still they were allowed out and about and watched. We were allowed to play the game we did because we are a very small country who don't matter at the end of the day when the big boys sit around the table. Like it or not, we were unofficially aligned with the allied side and that's how it always was and how it is now.

Finally, if we were attacked by another nation anytime in the near future, the people defending our airspace would be the RAF as we are incapable of defending it with the equipment we have in a modern setting. For Britain, there would be the vested interest in protecting their own airspace, not to mention that it's as easy defent our area for them as to defend their own. Those people out protesting at airshows would do well to realise this.

celty

squonk wrote: »

Finally, if we were attacked by another nation anytime in the near future, the people defending our airspace would be the RAF as we are incapable of defending it with the equipment we have in a modern setting. For Britain, there would be the vested interest in protecting their own airspace, not to mention that it's as easy defent our area for them as to defend their own. Those people out protesting at airshows would do well to realise this.

Who the hell would want to attack this little hole? Sure, we've all ready been attacked, assaulted, and torn apart by bankers, politicians, and priests

Of course we were neutral! Sure, wasn't Dev one of the few European leaders to send condolences to the Germans upon the death of Hitler!

scholar007

squonk wrote: »

Reading this thread makes me mad that there are a bunch of people out there with little better to do with their time than object to airshows.

The fact is, no large nation is suddenly going to ground their fleet of F-16's military aircraft because there's no Galway Air Show anymore. Frankly, if you want to adopt the anti-war excuse for boycotting the air show, then you might as well extend that to Athletics as well because sports such as Javelin evolved from spear throwing, which was a pretty useful skill to have in war. People who could run like the clappers made good soldiers and people who could run marathons made good reconnaissance officers. War has been happening for thousands of years and, sadly, will continue for thousands of years to come. it's our nature and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Just as I love to watch the 100m Olympic final, I love watching air displays by the Red Arrows or any other display team also at airshows. Getting to see a few bi-planes, the CASA and an Aer Arann turbo prop is good but seeing some fighters is far better, and incredibly impressive. I've been thrilled to bits the times I saw these aircraft doing their thing. I'd be equally thrilled to bits if a 787 or A380 did a low fly by because it's the technology that excites me and is a testament to how far we've come in just over 100 years since manned flight began. Yes I know that a lot of the aircraft could be used to drop bombs in a war setting but I personally don't have the ability to single-handedly stop wars just because I want to. If I felt a great enough objection I'd stay at home probably but I'm a lover of science and technology and that will keep me coming back to airshows again and again wherever they are held.

Finally, we were/are neutral in name only. During WW2 we hapilly repatriated downed allied pilots across the border and if we weren't conveniently close enough to the border they were conveniently allowed to escape. We weren't too hard on our German PoW's either but they didn't really have the luxury of escaping back german occupied teritory. Still they were allowed out and about and watched. We were allowed to play the game we did because we are a very small country who don't matter at the end of the day when the big boys sit around the table. Like it or not, we were unofficially aligned with the allied side and that's how it always was and how it is now.

Finally, if we were attacked by another nation anytime in the near future, the people defending our airspace would be the RAF as we are incapable of defending it with the equipment we have in a modern setting. For Britain, there would be the vested interest in protecting their own airspace, not to mention that it's as easy defent our area for them as to defend their own. Those people out protesting at airshows would do well to realise this.

Well said Sir!

Dan_Solo

squonk wrote: »

Reading this thread makes me mad that there are a bunch of people out there with little better to do with their time than object to airshows.

It doesn't actually take me all my time to write a post here. Does it with you?
Anyway, I'm not even particularly pushed either way on it, but if nobody wants to part with a red cent to hold an airshow, why should I get all teary about it?
Take your moaning to Galway City Council, not GAAW who nothing to do with it.

samdeman

have been told by a very informed source that that the organisers of the volvo ocean race are in negotiations with "Team 60" and not the red arrows for next years event in galway. Team 60 are the aerobatic demonstration team of the swedish royal air force. Guess the GAAW will have to splash out on new banners now

galwayrush

samdeman wrote: »

have been told by a very informed source that that the organisers of the volvo ocean race are in negotiations with "Team 60" and not the red arrows for next years event in galway. Team 60 are the aerobatic demonstration team of the swedish royal air force. Guess the GAAW will have to splash out on new banners now

Unless they link the Swedes as being imperialistic from Viking times.:pac::pac:

Dan_Solo

samdeman wrote: »

have been told by a very informed source that that the organisers of the volvo ocean race are in negotiations with "Team 60" and not the red arrows for next years event in galway. Team 60 are the aerobatic demonstration team of the swedish royal air force. Guess the GAAW will have to splash out on new banners now

Considering Sweden haven't been involved in a war in close to 200 years, it's unlikely they'll be bombing Iraqi villages for cheap oil any time soon.

samdeman

they did manufacture ball bearings for the allied forces during world war two. these were used in the manufacture of weapons, warplanes, tanks etc. if you ask me those swedes were worse than the nazis!

pleasant Co.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Considering Sweden haven't been involved in a war in close to 200 years, it's unlikely they'll be bombing Iraqi villages for cheap oil any time soon.

Don't think the red arrows themselves have been involved in bombing iraqi villages either? Please correct me if i'm factually wrong.

Storm 10

The Swedish Defence Forces are in Afghanistan as part of the ISAF Force they have over 550 troops stationed there and over 1500 in Iraq.

Predalien

Storm 10 wrote: »

The Swedish Defence Forces are in Afghanistan as part of the ISAF Force they have over 550 troops stationed there and over 1500 in Iraq.

Massive difference in being part of a peacekeeping and reconstruction mission as opposed to a violent invasion.

On a separate note according to wikipedia it costs £9,000 for a display by the red arrows, if people feel so strongly about it then I'd suggest they organise some sort of fundraising group to raise the money to bring back the airshow.

lucianot

Only £9000? Potentially I can book them for my birthday. I hope they can maneuver in my backyard, I mean the Red Arrows. :P

Dan_Solo

Mactard wrote: »

Don't think the red arrows themselves have been involved in bombing iraqi villages either? Please correct me if i'm factually wrong.

Sorry to be so bloody obvious, but I bet the Adolf Hitler marching band didn't kill a lot of people either.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/

Many of the Red Arrows’ pilots and support staff have recently returned from Afghanistan and Iraq

pleasant Co.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Sorry to be so bloody obvious, but I bet the Adolf Hitler marching band didn't kill a lot of people either.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/reds/

Yeay, you brought up hitler...you have lost the match.

At the very least you learned that the red arrows weren't involved in bombing iraqi villages, that's something anyway.

Dan_Solo

Mactard wrote: »

Yeay, you brought up hitler...you have lost the match.

Not the guy who brought up the "the left" welcoming a Russian invasion oh no. Not a whiff of hyperbole there. What kind of fascist are you anyway, deciding who has won and lost a board discussion?

Mactard wrote: »

At the very least you learned that the red arrows weren't involved in bombing iraqi villages, that's something anyway.

Yes, in fact The Red Arrows, as in the pilots who fly those planes, were involved in bombing Iraqi villages. The Red Arrows are an "Aerobatic Team", i.e. the pilots, not the planes themselves.
No, that's OK, nobody expected you to know that.

xflyer

Not aware of Godwin's law are you Dan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

You lose!

LOL:p

Sponge Bob

OMG :eek: a Godwins Law Invocation , time for a quick IBTL from me so!

pleasant Co.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Not the guy who brought up the "the left" welcoming a Russian invasion oh no. Not a whiff of hyperbole there. What kind of fascist are you anyway, deciding who has won and lost a board discussion?

"that's OK, nobody expected you to know" about Godwin's law ok that's not true, I expected you to know about it, but I could hardly not quote you, the irony meter is bubbling over!

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, in fact The Red Arrows, as in the pilots who fly those planes, were involved in bombing Iraqi villages. The Red Arrows are an "Aerobatic Team", i.e. the pilots, not the planes themselves.
No, that's OK, nobody expected you to know that.

Lets get this clear, the Red Arrows, as in the team, the whole package, under the "Red Arrows" team name/label/banner, have never bombed iraqi villages.

Whether or not all their pilots have bombed iraqi villages outside of (before joining) the Red Arrows I'm not at all certain, but as part of the Red Arrows (while flying the aircraft that make them part of the Red Arrows) they most definitely and irrefutably have not done so.

Gleefully awaiting your next dickish remark, you could try underlining something next time, or typing a word and then putting a strike though it, that'd definitely show me a thing or two, it'd really put me in my place.

biko

Wrap it up folks, I'm sending in the jet fighters tomorrow morning.

samdeman

biko wrote: »

Wrap it up folks, I'm sending in the jet fighters tomorrow morning.

i thought you were a peacekeeper biko?!!!:D