"Invitation to schools to reflect in silence on Friday 9th September 2011"

sitstill

Our Principal told us today about this circular that was issued over the Summer.

Basically they want us to have a period of silence to reflect on those who died in the Famine.

Am I the only one who does not see the point of this?!

http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/insp_ltr_famine.pdf?language=EN

Boober Fraggle

That seems odd in the extreme to me.

E.T.

I can't see any harm in it? Especially if it highlights current famines as referred to here:

"This year's commemoration is particularly appropriate in light of the catastrophic
events unfolding in Somalia and throughout East Africa."

implausible

E.T. wrote: »

"This year's commemoration is particularly appropriate in light of the catastrophic events unfolding in Somalia and throughout East Africa."

Now, that bit makes sense. A collection for Goal or another charity would be appropriate in conjunction with it.

Rosita

sitstill wrote: »

Am I the only one who does not see the point of this?!

Not at all. In a post-colonial society there'll be thousands like you.

spurious

Is this really what civil servants spend their time dreaming up?

byhookorbycrook

Is this going to form some of this extra time we are supposed to find for maths and literacy?

evolving_doors

Fair enough if Jimmy D wants to get kudos for linking it to somalia or whatever but please...STOP WASTING OUR TIME .. Do we really have have to make this our own 9/11.. This is as bad as Arthurs Day Celebrations...Ya lets all get together and commemorate and then feel warm and fuzzy after..

Maybe we should all commemorate the extinction of the dinosaurs to remind us of how short life is for us humans.

khan86

Don't really see how this is any different to Holocaust Memorial Days. It's only a minute silence, not sure what the big deal is. Arthur's Day is a day of "celebration" - another pathetic excuse to promote alcohol, it's like Paddy's Day part two. This is a day of commemoration, I would have no problem observing it. I agree with E.T., what harm is it?

looksee

khan86 wrote: »

Don't really see how this is any different to Holocaust Memorial Days. It's only a minute silence, not sure what the big deal is. Arthur's Day is a day of "celebration" - another pathetic excuse to promote alcohol, it's like Paddy's Day part two. This is a day of commemoration, I would have no problem observing it. I agree with E.T., what harm is it?

Possibly because someone has to take time off from what they are teaching, give a rational argument about why the class is doing it, listen to the objections and general giving out that is engaged in as a time waster, then supervise the class while unable to break the silence to tell people to stop giggling, whispering or texting.

I am not suggesting all this would happen for, say, remembering death of a fellow student or an event that has immediate impact for the class, then they show respect, but honestly this is just makey-upey stuff.

rainbowtrout

looksee wrote: »

Possibly because someone has to take time off from what they are teaching, give a rational argument about why the class is doing it, listen to the objections and general giving out that is engaged in as a time waster, then supervise the class while unable to break the silence to tell people to stop giggling, whispering or texting.

I am not suggesting all this would happen for, say, remembering death of a fellow student or an event that has immediate impact for the class, then they show respect, but honestly this is just makey-upey stuff.

That was what I thought too..I can see some of the students I have doing all that and asking questions such as 'How come it's taken 160 years to decide to remember the famine?' or 'Why is it today? How do they know the famine started on the 9th September?' :rolleyes:

We have a morning prayer over the intercom and sometimes there is some story of something that is in the news. Sometimes it is a bit waffley and rambling and doesn't really have anything to do with anything. Most of the students aren't listening, start giving out, say it's a waste of time and ask what's the point. I can see them having the same reaction for this.

Rosita

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Is this going to form some of this extra time we are supposed to find for maths and literacy?

If teachers were genuinely interested in finding extra time for Maths and literacy they could so do by working an extra seven weeks in the summer like their UK counterparts (who manage to hold and correct exams too)...goes the very obvious riposte to this comment. We need to take note of the rather large glasshouse around us before we chuck that particular stone.

Also remember that there are many people out there who don't see the point of Christmas or Easter either but we get a few weeks off and tend not to question it. The 'what's the point?' argument cited by the opening poster could be applied to a lot of things.

It is one minute that is being requested...one minute! A million people died in the famine (okay, for many it was a Malthusian god-send as they were only gaelic-speaking peasants in the West that were no loss to anyone anyway and they'd have been grand if they'd just popped down to Starbucks when the spuds didn't smell too good) and giving up one minute of one day is hardly going necessitate students attending a counsellor. Students are often quite happy to disrupt classes themselves for a lot longer than a minute themselves without feeling the need for providing an explanation.

And might the average History teacher not be quite happy for students to be asking what was the point? It might stoke some kind of interest in a topic that is on the Junior Cert course.

I just don't get the objections to a voluntary and extremely short matter.

byhookorbycrook

I am objecting because I am fed up of all the stuff foisted on schools. Not a week goes past without some gobdaw demanding that "schools should do something" about everything from headlice to drinkdiving.

So, a minute of silence for famines, what about 1798?1916?The people who died in world wars?The soldiers killed overseas with the UN?All worthy, but where do you draw the line? Seems more like a pr move then a genuine movement.

Rosita

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I am objecting because I am fed up of all the stuff foisted on schools. Not a week goes past without some gobdaw demanding that "schools should do something" about everything from headlice to drinkdiving.

Not a week? Much of this stuff goes over my head then I have to say (and I say that as a class tutor who would tend to be asked to bring people to assemblies or to read out stuff to the class). Last year the Guards came in a couple of times and there was also some lady to do with saving the planet. The students were delighted - anything to get out of class. And all the school had to do was provide the room. Others gave the talks.

Rosita

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

So, a minute of silence for famines, what about 1798?1916?The people who died in world wars?The soldiers killed overseas with the UN?All worthy, but where do you draw the line? Seems more like a pr move then a genuine movement.

Where do you draw the line? This argument could be used to prevent anybody doing anything. But in an Irish context maybe a death toll of a million might be a reasonable place to draw the line? Infinitely more Irish died in the Famine than any of the other events you mentioned. It might also be argued that the rest are politically sensitive while surely only a churl would refuse to acknowledge the horror of Famine.

looksee

No-one is denying the horror of famine. And yes, it is only a minute, but that is not the point. If you are a school that has assemblies, then a minute during assembly would be fine. If you happen to teach history or a similarly appropriate subject, then fair enough, though it seems a bit odd.

'Today we are going to talk about the Famine, both the Irish famine and the one that is happening in Africa at the moment. We will first have a one minute silence to remember all who have died in famines'

'Today's lesson is about the First World War...the Spanish Flu epidemic...the slave trade...the struggle for independence...' 'No, we will not be having a minute's silence...yes I know lots of people died...yes of course we feel sorry for them...well its hard to say whether the slave trade was worse than the Famine...' and so on.

Its a bit random though to suddenly discover after 160+ years a need to remember the Famine with a minute's silence. How many students are likely to spend that minute contemplating the Famine? It would be much more useful to direct their attention to the Africa famine(s) linking it to the Irish famine and possibly doing something practical to raise awareness or money.

Rosita

looksee wrote: »

It would be much more useful to direct their attention to the Africa famine(s) linking it to the Irish famine and possibly doing something practical to raise awareness or money.

Well, if you read the circular you will see that it is linked to the famine in East Africa and people are specifically asked to remember those victims.

As for raising awareness I'd have thought that raising awareness was the whole point - to make it a talking point. It's hardly a tribute to Simon & Garfunkel's 'Sound if Silence'. If people are genuinely interested in raising awareness further as opposed to just picking holes in the whole idea then surely it creates a brilliant opportunity to do just that. Inevitably some students will ask why it's happening and it provides a teacher with an excellent opportunity to raise awareness about famine. The average student will not normally walk into a room and ask about famines, but this is likely to provide an opportunity to discuss the issue in some sort of context.

And any teacher that feels contributing 'practially' by raising money hardly needs a circular to tell them to do so. This seems an ideal springboard for those with such initiative.

I don't understand your point about doing it in assembly. If you object to it then surely it's a bad idea whenever or wherever it happens? Surely it's also far better to have the silence in class rather than assembly so that the teachers who don't give a fiddler's about famines (and other knee-jerk objectors to everything) the chance to not participate without having to walk out of an assembly in protest or whatever and making a scene - and it is voluntary let us remember.

looksee

I don't see any 'knee jerk objectors' or people who don't give a fiddlers about famines here. To use your own argument, why do you need a circular about 'minute silence' to remember the Famine, or indeed any other event?

And the famine in Africa surely deserves more than a minute, but it will not get it if the minute happens in maths or science or a discussion about Hamlet. Right that's the famine sorted, now lets get on with the lesson.

This whole idea is just an attack of pc sentimentality by someone who has a quota of official memos to get out.

Rosita

looksee wrote: »

I don't see any 'knee jerk objectors' or people who don't give a fiddlers about famines here. To use your own argument, why do you need a circular about 'minute silence' to remember the Famine, or indeed any other event?

And the famine in Africa surely deserves more than a minute, but it will not get it if the minute happens in maths or science or a discussion about Hamlet. Right that's the famine sorted, now lets get on with the lesson.

This whole idea is just an attack of pc sentimentality by someone who has a quota of official memos to get out.

I don't see any 'knee jerk objectors' or people who don't give a fiddlers about famines here.

I never said they were here - I simply wouldn't know that. I referred to them being in schools. Staff-rooms, as a cross-section of society, will inevitably have them, though of course they would never acknowledge themselves as such.

To use your own argument, why do you need a circular about 'minute silence' to remember the Famine, or indeed any other event?

Two reasons I can think of: 1) Presumably because it is assumed that the school day is not already punctuated by such rememberances with silences at various stages to commemorate different things, and 2) It coincides with national famine commemoration day so they are more likely to do that sort of stuff at that time, no? (nobody died in Dublin in the Famine so therefore it's not really an issue for the chattering classes but the commemoration day is still there) As for why one would need a circular to remember 'any other event', I can't say that I give every significant event that has ever occurred daily though. I'd probably need a circular or two to stoke my memory. I'd say most people are too engrossed in the banalities of everyday life to be otherwise.

And the famine in Africa surely deserves more than a minute, but it will not get it if the minute happens in maths or science or a discussion about Hamlet. Right that's the famine sorted, now lets get on with the lesson.

Earlier on a minute for the Famine/famines was too much, now it's not enough? Let's be honest a school could find half an hour throughout the year for famine awareness if the desire is really there - they allow free time for far more frivilous reasons.

And finally you seem to, on the one hand, want more time devoted to famine awareness but at the same time the "whole idea is just an attack of pc sentimentality by someone who has a quota of official memos to get out".

You don't seem to be quite sure where you stand on the matter it appears to me.

evolving_doors

9/11 is 'taken' at the moment,
maybe we could remember the two in one go, or maybe we just remember everyone (even neanderthals) who every walked and died on this planet,,I know that's a bit glib but where do you draw the line, just because of some idiot politician who sits in his office with nothing to do and hands down some directive to get him on the radio for a day, anyone who's against it has no say really,,, for me he can get stuffed as I have work to do

Might be appropriate for cspe or religion class as a weak exposition though

byhookorbycrook

We support Goal each year and have taken classes to the local famine grave as well as exploring famine in depth in 5th/6th. We don't need a contrived media event to make us remember.

sitstill

I have no issue with covering topics like famines in my CSPE or Religion classes. I have organised masses when such topics have been prayed for and have had students raised money for Concern.

This minute's silence is ridiculous. It is for the media and to get sound bites for the MInister in question. It will do nothing to encourage my students at least to think about the Irish famine or any other.

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

9/11 is 'taken' at the moment,
maybe we could remember the two in one go, or maybe we just remember everyone (even neanderthals) who every walked and died on this planet,,I know that's a bit glib but where do you draw the line, just because of some idiot politician who sits in his office with nothing to do and hands down some directive to get him on the radio for a day, anyone who's against it has no say really,,, for me he can get stuffed as I have work to do

Might be appropriate for cspe or religion class as a weak exposition though

As I have already suggested maybe draw the line at events in Ireland where a million or more people have died?

I can understand (if not agree with) objections on the basis that people really don't give a sh*t about the Famine. It's a fairly insecure post-colonial society and this is one of the inevitable reactions.

But attempts to retrospectively rationalise the objections by asking a question such as 'where do you draw the line?' are ludricous given the singular nature of the event in Irish history.

There is no even remotely comparable event in Irish history in terms of numbers dying so the idea that it cannot be ring-fenced as an event is risible. Drawing the line is the easy bit.

Rosita

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

We support Goal each year and have taken classes to the local famine grave as well as exploring famine in depth in 5th/6th. We don't need a contrived media event to make us remember.

Maybe they are aiming at lesser mortals.

Powerhouse

Armelodie wrote: »

9/11 is 'taken' at the moment,
maybe we could remember the two in one go,

Ah, I think Pinochet is old news at this stage. And it did happen thousands of miles away. I wouldn't worry about the date. Anyway the actual date of commemoration this year in the 10th September which is a Saturday and for some reason we can't have school that day...and they talk about productivity?

looksee

Rosita wrote: »

As I have already suggested maybe draw the line at events in Ireland where a million or more people have died?

I can understand (if not agree with) objections on the basis that people really don't give a sh*t about the Famine. It's a fairly insecure post-colonial society and this is one of the inevitable reactions.

But attempts to retrospectively rationalise the objections by asking a question such as 'where do you draw the line?' are ludricous given the singular nature of the event in Irish history.

There is no even remotely comparable event in Irish history in terms of numbers dying so the idea that it cannot be ring-fenced as an event is risible. Drawing the line is the easy bit.

Let me see if I can put this any more clearly:

No-one on this thread - so far as I can see - has any problems with awareness of the Irish famine or any other famine, or indeed any similar type event.

What is not wanted is a 'one minute silence' inflicted on classes by bored beaurocrats. dictated by the department or any other agency outside the school.

It's that simple. Nothing to do with any specific crisis at all, it is the notion of the 'one minute silence' for a non-immediate issue (like the death of a fellow student, for example) that is the problem.

Fulton Crown

Armelodie wrote: »

Fair enough if Jimmy D wants to get kudos for linking it to somalia or whatever but please...STOP WASTING OUR TIME .. Do we really have have to make this our own 9/11.. This is as bad as Arthurs Day Celebrations...Ya lets all get together and commemorate and then feel warm and fuzzy after..

Maybe we should all commemorate the extinction of the dinosaurs to remind us of how short life is for us humans.

Yeah ...excellent point poster..too freekin right !

Rosita

looksee wrote: »

What is not wanted is a 'one minute silence' dictated by the department or any other agency outside the school.

But that's missing the whole point...it's voluntary. It needn't impinge on any teacher who's offended or whose lesson is so tightly planned that one minute out will torpedo it.

I would have severe difficulty with a dictat myself. But cannot see the problem here at all.

wantano

let's just on with work and remember what you want in your own time. I support al ot of charities, i know they exist, thanks a lot, I'm a teacher to teach.

looksee

Rosita wrote: »

But that's missing the whole point...it's voluntary. It needn't impinge on any teacher who's offended or whose lesson is so tightly planned that one minute out will torpedo it.

I would have severe difficulty with a dictat myself. But cannot see the problem here at all.

OK I'm out of this 'discussion' before I get personal.

Powerhouse

wantano wrote: »

I'm a teacher to teach.

I think this bolsters one of the points that Rosita made, that is that these objections are grand until people try to put them in a broader intellectual farmework as if the objection is part of some consistent belief system you have.

If you want to "get on with the work" and are "a teacher to teach" then you would object to non-teaching activities like school trips, sports in school, yard supervision, exam supervision and may even staff meetings. It seems unlikely that you do, so objecting to this proposed minute's silence on the basis that you do holds little water.

Far better and more honest just to say "I don't want to do it".

Powerhouse

looksee wrote: »

OK I'm out of this 'discussion' before I get personal.

WTF?!

evolving_doors

Powerhouse wrote: »

.....objecting to this proposed minute's silence on the basis that you do holds little water.

Far better and more honest just to say "I don't want to do it".

And herein lies the problem started by Jimmy Deenihan TD...
objecting to the proposed minutes silence for WHATEVER reason doesn't really hold water, it's like saying we should all take a minutes silence to denounce communism and anyone who doesn't is obviously a communist...

People should really look to the origins of this..

minister in office with nothing to do but organise something to get him in the news... if you play along with this you're a sap

Far better and more honest to say " I'm a sheep and I'll do whatever some minister who I have knowledge of tells me to"

evolving_doors

Rosita wrote: »

As I have already suggested maybe draw the line at events in Ireland where a million or more people have died?

I can understand (if not agree with) objections on the basis that people really don't give a sh*t about the Famine. It's a fairly insecure post-colonial society and this is one of the inevitable reactions.

But attempts to retrospectively rationalise the objections by asking a question such as 'where do you draw the line?' are ludricous given the singular nature of the event in Irish history.

There is no even remotely comparable event in Irish history in terms of numbers dying so the idea that it cannot be ring-fenced as an event is risible. Drawing the line is the easy bit.

And there it is on a plate.. I won't choose to 'play along' with this TD Jimmy Deenihan's directive to observe a minutes silence .. therefore I "don't give a sh*t about the famine"


Anyway why draw the line at 1 million people = 1minute ,,,how about 999,000 people, are their lives worth less? how about 1 person (michael Collins maybe!!) how about people killed in 1916 (oh wait politicians are rubbing there hands waiting for this commemoration in 5 years time) how about civil war, orOmagh, how about Norman invasion.

Are they worth less or more, of course not but the main point is that you're almost obliged to say how high when an idiot minister says Jump.

Godge

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I am objecting because I am fed up of all the stuff foisted on schools. Not a week goes past without some gobdaw demanding that "schools should do something" about everything from headlice to drinkdiving.

.

This is the type of attitude that gives teachers such a bad reputation.

If we took away all the stuff that has been foisted on schools for the last thirty years, children would be taught the same way and the same stuff at thirty years ago. What would be the point in that?

Have you noticed from your cocoon that the world is changing faster than ever? As a result schools need to change faster than ever and that can mean doing something about all the new and old problems from headlice to drinkdriving and everything else.

You know, if you are fed up, maybe you should change jobs and find something else useful to do in society, that is, if you are able to catch up with the rest of the world out there who have been living with all the things foisted on them for the last thirty years.

byhookorbycrook

No, I don't agree. I have no issue with properly thought out curricula, it's the local loud mouth talking to Joe demanding the school should do something taken up by the likes of the Healy Raes and co. I dislike.

Schools are dynamic places, we react to change and to pupils' needs as a matter of course, before other places even see the issues.

implausible

Godge wrote: »

If we took away all the stuff that has been foisted on schools for the last thirty years, children would be taught the same way and the same stuff at thirty years ago. What would be the point in that?

Have you noticed from your cocoon that the world is changing faster than ever? As a result schools need to change faster than ever and that can mean doing something about all the new and old problems from headlice to drinkdriving and everything else.

Ok, so thinking that a minute's silence for the Famine is a waste of time means that we are living in a cocoon?

The things that the poster object to being foisted upon teachers are the kind of things that result in Junior Certs doing up to 14 subjects and the erosion of core subjects. That has worked so well the Dept has had to cut it back again to 8 now:rolleyes:

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

And there it is on a plate.. I won't choose to 'play along' with this TD Jimmy Deenihan's directive to observe a minutes silence .. therefore I "don't give a sh*t about the famine"

This is a bit melodramatic! You should have read my post more carefully.
What I wrote was: I can understand (if not agree with) objections on the basis that people really don't give a sh*t about the Famine.

Nothing in that to imply that this is the only possible objection. I have no notion of your feelings on the Famine.

Incidentally, your use of the word 'directive' is inappropriate and suggests someone who has not read the circular. It is far more nuanced and soft-focus than something which might justify being called a 'directive' - as least as I understand the use of the word in normal discourse. The minute's silence is quite clearly voluntary.

byhookorbycrook

So,what has else has Jimmy Deenihan done for education recently?If he were serious about this being more than a media opp he'd make a good pack of resource material available to schools.

And wait until we get back to school and get a few days of fine weather for the inevitable local gobdaw saying childen should get a few days off to enjoy the good weather...

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

Anyway why draw the line at 1 million people = 1minute ,,,how about 999,000 people, are their lives worth less? how about 1 person (michael Collins maybe!!) how about people killed in 1916 (oh wait politicians are rubbing there hands waiting for this commemoration in 5 years time) how about civil war, orOmagh, how about Norman invasion.

Why draw the line at 1 million people? At one level there is absolutely no reason. But someone did ask where do we draw the line. I suggested events where over one million people died simply to show that a line can be drawn. At least that figure died in the Famine and no other historical event in Ireland comes within an ass's roar of that figure. The figure is not arbitrary.

Of course you could always commemorate they type of stuff you mention if you are not prepared to accept that a line can be drawn. But I thought you were against the idea of such commemorations??

Rosita

deemark wrote: »

The things that the poster object to being foisted upon teachers are the kind of things that result in Junior Certs doing up to 14 subjects and the erosion of core subjects. That has worked so well the Dept has had to cut it back again to 8 now:rolleyes:

I think it's important to recall the core issue. The circular (which has not been mentioned in my school yet anyway) suggests a voluntary minute's silence. Frankly, that could be had (in my school anyway) during a tutor class first thing in the morning when stuff which is not directly curricular is normally dealt with.

This idea that this is the latest attack on study time and will play havoc with students' subjects is the epitomy of the silly over-reaction to a real non-issue on this thread. If some teachers are getting into such a strop over something like this they must have little to worry them.

evolving_doors

Rosita wrote: »

Where do you draw the line? This argument could be used to prevent anybody doing anything. But in an Irish context maybe a death toll of a million might be a reasonable place to draw the line? Infinitely more Irish died in the Famine than any of the other events you mentioned. It might also be argued that the rest are politically sensitive while surely only a churl would refuse to acknowledge the horror of Famine.

And there it is... "only a churl would refuse to acknowledge the horror of famine".. so from your logic because someone doesn't want to play along with this politicians attempt at PR grabbing they are refusing to 'acknowledge the horror etc,,

Put it this way Rosita.. if i issued a directive to the school to acknowledge the 'horror' of say.. the sinking of the Titanic.. and you decided not too because

A. It's not a reasonable amount of deaths to merit remembrance.
B. Not really Irish enough
C. You see it as a political headline grabber that only serves to keep my name in the media..

Therefore you are refusing to acknowledge the horror of a shipping tragedy and thus a 'churl'

Does a teacher have the right to say no to this charade without being called names?

evolving_doors

Rosita wrote: »

This is a bit melodramatic! You should have read my post more carefully.
What I wrote was: I can understand (if not agree with) objections on the basis that people really don't give a sh*t about the Famine.

Nothing in that to imply that this is the only possible objection. I have no notion of your feelings on the Famine.

Incidentally, your use of the word 'directive' is inappropriate and suggests someone who has not read the circular. It is far more nuanced and soft-focus than something which might justify being called a 'directive' - as least as I understand the use of the word in normal discourse. The minute's silence is quite clearly voluntary.

Apologies for using the word directive I was incorrect, it is of course a voluntary invitation...but, if I invite you to voluntarily denounce or support something as a teacher then that is putting you in a compromising position.

Also I have read the 'nuanced' comments by JD especially when he says

"To date, the Irish Government has provided some €7.7 million in relief through Irish Aid. This is the largest contribution to a single emergency from the Government in 2011 and shows that as a people we care deeply about adults and children who are literally starving to death."

sounds like we should be thankful to him. And of course it's nuanced, because it's probably been worked on for a week by his personal assistant...

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

Does a teacher have the right to say no to this charade without being called names?

People will always draw inferences from actions or inactions. Such is life.

Godge

deemark wrote: »

Ok, so thinking that a minute's silence for the Famine is a waste of time means that we are living in a cocoon?

The things that the poster object to being foisted upon teachers are the kind of things that result in Junior Certs doing up to 14 subjects and the erosion of core subjects. That has worked so well the Dept has had to cut it back again to 8 now:rolleyes:

well done on the misquoting. The poster I referred to was complaining about all of the things foisted on teachers. My comments were therefore related to that rather than to the single issue of the Famine silence.

Nothing necessarily wrong with Junior Certs doing up to 14 subjects, subjecting them to 14 terminal exams that determine their future is wrong. Remind me why we need an exam for religion - is it for the children's greater good or is it so the religion teachers can jump on the exam payments gravy train?

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

Apologies for using the word directive I was incorrect, it is of course a voluntary invitation...but, if I invite you to voluntarily denounce or support something as a teacher then that is putting you in a compromising position.

People make decisions, consciously and unconsciously, every minute of every day. This is just another (very minor) one. You are not being asked to give a twenty minute address to the nation on why the Famine should not be commemorated. Just make your own mind up and get on with it. It's not dropping the atom bomb.

All I have ever argued is that it is not an unreasonable request given the nature of the event in question and that the negativity towards it is totally unwarranted since it is a very significant event with huge loss of life and the gesture is voluntary.

evolving_doors

My main argument is that it is not really voluntary and it IS an unreasonable request , not for the issue of famine but for the motives behind the ' voluntary' request.
Put it like this... if I want to raise awareness for down syndrome and decide to do a cycle race (like Enda kenny is doing) then well and good, however if I wanted to raise awareness by inviting groups of people like the GAA or teachers to do x,y or z then I'd be aprehensive about doing it, simply because it makes me look insensitive our like a 'churl' if I decline.

Believe me, I have made up my mind and gotten on with things the minute I heard of JD's media grab. He's no different than a charity mugger.

spurious

The schools are losing subjects, losing staff, jamming kids in large classes, cutting support for children who need it and the paper shufflers are sending out circulars about having a minute's silence?

It's like an episode of 'Yes Minister'.

Rosita

Armelodie wrote: »

My main argument is that it is not really voluntary and it IS an unreasonable request , not for the issue of famine but for the motives behind the ' voluntary' request.

Okay, let's be practical about this. I will refuse to have the minute's silence do when the time comes and I'll let you know what happens. That is the best test of whether it is voluntary or not. I will be surprised if anybody cares less, but maybe you're right.

Rosita

spurious wrote: »

The schools are losing subjects, losing staff, jamming kids in large classes, cutting support for children who need it and the paper shufflers are sending out circulars about having a minute's silence?

It's like an episode of 'Yes Minister'.

Well, we are in that economic situation and teachers are still in school less than half the days of the year and cannot be given a paycut for three years under terms the unions negotiated. Some would say (and say quite vehemently) that that leaves the 'paper shufflers' in the ha'penny place when we consider our overall problems. We need to think of the glasshouse.

implausible

Godge wrote: »

well done on the misquoting. The poster I referred to was complaining about all of the things foisted on teachers. My comments were therefore related to that rather than to the single issue of the Famine silence.

Nothing necessarily wrong with Junior Certs doing up to 14 subjects, subjecting them to 14 terminal exams that determine their future is wrong. Remind me why we need an exam for religion - is it for the children's greater good or is it so the religion teachers can jump on the exam payments gravy train?

And the poster was including the Famine silence in amongst these things.

I'm confused now - so we should take on board every single whim of the Govt, but you, who presumably is not in the education sector, can disagree with bits and pieces of it i.e. Religion. You are giving out to teachers for disagreeing with the same things you disagree with

As for the "exam payments gravy train" comment - any teacher of any subject can apply to superintend the exams. The vast majority of Religion teachers have a second subject and are free to mark the exams if they wish. It being an exam subject is irrelevant.