Make Drogheda Toll Free

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There is no conspiracy to victimise the people of Drogheda.

The design and layout of the bypass road network would not support your claim.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Yes, I could explain it. But I won't, because you should already know......

I will ask the same question again and just maybe we can get a glimpse of the thinking behind the construction of the Drogheda Bypass.
'Can you please explain why local traffic and through traffic have free use of the PPP. M1 when bypassing Dundalk and Dunleer yet when you arrive at Drogheda the main artery road into the town has a ramp TOLL'.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

From the M1, having paid the toll.

You must have an alternative route. Ingenious traffic management could disincentivise people from using it

So you support the ramp TOLL on entering Drogheda and you advocate a weight restriction on HGV entering the town thus forcing commercial vehicles through the Donore Road TOLL and on top of all that you would like to use ‘ingenious traffic management’ to disincentivise people from using the town. Would this ingenious traffic management be a codeword for more traffic lights?

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

locum-motion wrote: »

I love the fact that when Ken is asked to justify his "Make Drogheda toll free" campaign, he always brings up how inconvenient and/or expensive the toll is for people who live in a village 7km outside the town.

The people that apply for a social house to Drogheda Borough Council may end up with a house in Tullyallen. They would have been born in the town have family in the town when to funerals, weddings and christenings in the town. Their centre of interest is the Town. For many the ramp TOLL is a barrier that they can ill afford and the cause of great hardship.

locum-motion

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

The people that apply for a social house to Drogheda Borough Council may end up with a house in Tullyallen. They would have been born in the town have family in the town when to funerals, weddings and christenings in the town. Their centre of interest is the Town. For many the ramp TOLL is a barrier that they can ill afford and the cause of great hardship.

In reading my reply, Ken, and in formulating your own response to it, please bear in mind that you were the person who introduced this multitude of townies who live in social housing in Tullyallen as being your primary example of people who suffer hardship because of the tolls.

1. How many people are we talking about?
2. What parts of Drogheda does their inability to pay a toll prevent them from reaching easily?

In answer to 1, I would guess that the people affected are numbered in tens, not thousands or even hundreds.

Regarding 2:
Look at a map. Coming townwards (if that's a word!) from Tullyallen, one reaches the M1/N51 junction. One arrives at the same junction if coming from Slane, Collon, Dunleer, Ardee, Dundalk and all other points north from there.
Let's just say that your Tullyallen Townie has a sister on the Donore Road. You think he should be allowed to visit his sister without paying the toll.
I say
a) he can, he just has to go through the town, and
b) why should someone from Tullyallen be allowed visit his relative without paying the toll, while his 3 brothers (who live in social housing in Dunleer, Ardee and Dundalk respectively) can't?
In either case (and this is the main point I wanted to make in relation to 2), the vast, vast majority of the town would be far, far easier and quicker to reach via the Mell road when coming from that junction. It's only a very small part of the town in the Donore Rd area and poss. Duleek Rd area that would be shorter/quicker/easier via motorway.

I asked this before: what two parts of the town are easier/quicker/shorter to travel between via the toll road than via usual streets. The only example that a KOH supporter came back to me with was Ballsgrove to the Hospital. That particular journey, when I checked it out, turned out to be over 3x further via the motorway than via the ordinary roads (>9km as opposed to about 3, if I recall correctly).

At the end of the day, everyone has a choice; use the tolled section of road, or don't. You have consistently failed to produce credible, realistic examples of anyone who suffers any genuine hardship from being unable to drive from any given A to any given B without paying a toll.

ps. If your Tullyallen Townie can afford to drive a car to a family wedding, with all that that entails, he can afford €1.80 for the toll.

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

If that is the case, then I'd be quite happy to back down. If that's the type of deal that the Counciller is looking for, fair enough. But I don't think it is. I get the feeling the Counciller is not looking for a reneogitian of terms and a financial settlement, but rather looking for a complete abolishment. Tbh, I don't think the Counciller has looked beyond the basic premise of removing the tolls and the ins-and-outs of such a venture; by his own admission, he's apparently not even seen the contract which was signed when the tolls were agreed upon.

This isn't a campaign where a plan is being offered which would let the company controlling the tolls to continue to recieve the moneys they were promised (For example, it's not being proposed the toll be halfed but the time frame doubled. I can't imagine anyone will step forward and pay off a chunk of what they'd be owed in compensation). That's why I stand by what I said; this is a PR campaign for the Counciller.

I was part of a delegation from Drogheda Borough Council and we met with and made a number of proposals to the NRA and Celtic Roads. As part of the delegation I sought the removal of the ramp TOLLs on the J9 Donore Road other proposal were discussed.
The Drogheda Chamber of Commerce also sent a delegation to the NRA and they put separate proposals forward that would see no drop in revenue for the TOLL operators.

Other issue discussed by DBC delegation as follows: summery)
· An extension of the 3 hour re-entry to facilitate north -south and south - north journeys.
· We discussed the absence of information signage for the 3 hour re-entry and the need to have same erected.

Neither Drogheda Borough Council nor Drogheda Chamber has had any positive feed back. The only tangible evidence was the erection of one sign on the Southbound ramp TOLL by Celtic Roads Group. They have failed to erect suitable signage at the northbound lanes at the main Toll Plaza.

This campaign is well structured, organised and enjoys broad cross community support and its prepared for the long haul.

locum-motion

locum-motion wrote: »

...
b) why should someone from Tullyallen be allowed visit his relative without paying the toll, while his 3 brothers (who live in social housing in Dunleer, Ardee and Dundalk respectively) can't?
...

I've just spotted a flaw in my own argument in this part of my post, and in fairness to Ken, I thought I'd point it out myself first.

I'm fairly sure that Ken's proposal isn't that the toll should be free for people who live in the Drogheda area, but that the Jct 9 tolls should be abolished altogether. In which case, of course, the other 3 brothers would also be able to visit their sister for free.

It was a different poster who suggested that the toll should be free for locals. Also, it might not even have been in this thread.

P. Breathnach

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

The design and layout of the bypass road network would not support your claim.

Do you really believe that there is a conspiracy to victimise the people of Drogheda? Words don't often fail me, but ...

I will ask the same question again and just maybe we can get a glimpse of the thinking behind the construction of the Drogheda Bypass.
'Can you please explain why local traffic and through traffic have free use of the PPP. M1 when bypassing Dundalk and Dunleer yet when you arrive at Drogheda the main artery road into the town has a ramp TOLL'.

And again I won't answer it, because you have no business campaigning on the tolling of the road if you have not already figured that one out for yourself.

So you support the ramp TOLL on entering Drogheda and you advocate a weight restriction on HGV entering the town

Perhaps you have noticed that I am able to speak for myself. Don't try to speak for me, and attribute to me things I did not say.

thus forcing commercial vehicles through the Donore Road TOLL and on top of all that you would like to use ‘ingenious traffic management’ to disincentivise people from using the town.

I don't want to disincentivise people from using the town except in one limited and important way: I think it would be good for Drogheda if people did not use it as their route between places north and south of the town. You know, free it up for people who actually want to be in Drogheda.

Would this ingenious traffic management be a codeword for more traffic lights?

There is more to life - even political life - than populist attitudinising.

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And again I won't answer it, because you have no business campaigning on the tolling of the road if you have not already figured that one out for yourself.

Maybe you would answer this part of the question? 'Can you please explain why local traffic and through traffic have free use of the PPP. M1 when bypassing Dundalk and Dunleer'.

P. Breathnach

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

Maybe you would answer this part of the question? 'Can you please explain why local traffic and through traffic have free use of the PPP. M1 when bypassing Dundalk and Dunleer'.

It's part of the great conspiracy to do down Drogheda.

CMpunked

Heres a mad thought.
What if the company who erected the toll plaza on the south side of the town does in fact end up removing it, only to erect one on the opposite side of the bridge at the mell/tullyallen entrance to the motorway? :pac:

Lord TSC

Neither Drogheda Borough Council nor Drogheda Chamber has had any positive feed back. The only tangible evidence was the erection of one sign on the Southbound ramp TOLL by Celtic Roads Group. They have failed to erect suitable signage at the northbound lanes at the main Toll Plaza.

This campaign is well structured, organised and enjoys broad cross community support and its prepared for the long haul.

So in five years, you've managed to have a sign erected? That's some progress. :P Out of interest, could the DBC not erect signs in the nearby vicinity of the toll roads themselves? Obviously not right beside the tolls, as I presume that ground is owned by the people who run the tolls, but at least nearby?

Also, can I ask how you measure the support you say you have for this? Again I refer to the fact that the pictures of your protests on your own website seem to be of you and no one else. How come, if there's such a broad level of support, are people not turning out in their droves to protest these things with you?

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

could the DBC not erect signs in the nearby vicinity of the toll roads themselves? Obviously not right beside the tolls, as I presume that ground is owned by the people who run the tolls, but at least nearby?

The M1 is just out side the Borough Boundary and J9 Donore Road is in Co. Meath. The ground is not owned by the TOLLS company it was acquired by way of CPO’s.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Also, can I ask how you measure the support you say you have for this? Again I refer to the fact that the pictures of your protests on your own website seem to be of you and no one else. How come, if there's such a broad level of support, are people not turning out in their droves to protest these things with you?

The support for the removal of the ramp TOLLS can be measured by the unanimous vote by Drogheda Borough Council and they represent a sizeable majority of the Towns population also the campaign has received the support of the Drogheda Chamber who represent the local commercial sector.
The protest is held on New Years Day to coincide with the yearly price change and I use the opportunity to raise awareness. The number of people that stopped and signed the petition on the day was about 200. When the petition is ended I will publish the final number. The petition is part of the protest and yes people are signing?
The petition will run until the end of May and this will also be used to measure opposition to the ramp TOLLS.

Scotty #

P. Breathnach wrote: »

[...] you have no business campaigning on the tolling of the road if you have not already figured that one out for yourself.

The Cllr has also admitted he has no idea how many jobs would be lost as a result of the closure of the toll booths, how many jobs (if any) would be created by the abolishment of the tolls, or indeed has not provided any actual facts/studies to support any of his claims.

positron

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's total bollocks. There is no conspiracy to victimise the people of Drogheda.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Yes, I could explain it. But I won't, because you should already know why if you are campaigning to bring about change, and if you don't know why, then you should not be campaigning.

Based on the tone of your response, I am starting to think your interest on this debate is not about M1, tolls etc, but personal - are you a political / other opponent of the Counsiller? In either case, what is the point on debating something if you have nothing to contribute / care to contribute?

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

So in five years, you've managed to have a sign erected? That's some progress. :P

I think you are just being tounge-in-cheek, but you failed to acknowledge that he answered your concern about removing the tolls - you had assumed Councillor is proposing some sort of illegal demolish without discussion sort of thing - and here he clarified that they are in discussion with the concerned parties - nothing illegal etc. I suppose we have to give credit where it's due.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Also, can I ask how you measure the support you say you have for this? Again I refer to the fact that the pictures of your protests on your own website seem to be of you and no one else. How come, if there's such a broad level of support, are people not turning out in their droves to protest these things with you?

From what I have read so far, I am supporting this. I am sure there's a few others who have expressed support here in this thread. I don't know about his photos etc - may be he can explain?

Scotty # wrote: »

The Cllr has also admitted he has no idea how many jobs would be lost as a result of the closure of the toll booths, how many jobs (if any) would be created by the abolishment of the tolls, or indeed has not provided any actual facts/studies to support any of his claims.

There should be some sort of research into this alright. But when that comes out, I am sure there would be doubters who would question the quality of the research or assumptions etc, but it's better than nothing!

Now, I thought Councillor made it clear that there won't be any job loses directly related to the toll booths closure, I thought I read something about the retail shops representative making some sort of positive comment about the idea, not sure if that was here on this thread or not..!

P. Breathnach

positron wrote: »

Based on the tone of your response, I am starting to think your interest on this debate is not about M1, tolls etc, but personal - are you a political / other opponent of the Counsiller? In either case, what is the point on debating something if you have nothing to contribute / care to contribute?...

Don't try to imply that my participation in this thread is in any way dishonest. Neither is it fair to imply that I have nothing to contribute. I said I was a user of the road, and expressed concerns about the safety implications of using it as a local road. My safety, and that of other road users, is a very good reason for putting my point of view forward here.

The tone of my responses indicates my exasperation with the game Cllr. Ken O Heiligh is playing. At best, he is being disingenuous, but now that he is moving towards CT-land, I feel that is is fair to describe his claim as bollocks.

Should I now question your right to post here?

positron

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Don't try to imply that my participation in this thread is in any way dishonest. Neither is it fair to imply that I have nothing to contribute. I said I was a user of the road, and expressed concerns about the safety implications of using it as a local road. My safety, and that of other road users, is a very good reason for putting my point of view forward here.

I didn't imply any of that. I was purely referring your tone and ridiculing, which as we all know, never helps any discussion in any setting.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

The tone of my responses indicates my exasperation with the game Cllr. Ken O Heiligh is playing. At best, he is being disingenuous, but now that he is moving towards CT-land, I feel that is is fair to describe his claim as bollocks.

And this too. If I recall the exchange, he said 'it's very clever engineering', and you said 'there is no conspiracy', and I think he replied 'its no accident'. You suggested Ken is calling it a CT, and now you are saying he's 'bollocks' fo thinking its CT. That's how I see it, feel free to disagree.

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Should I now question your right to post here?

Are you implying that I questioned your "right" to post here? Anyway, please fee free to! I will do my best (within reason) to defend myself!

P. Breathnach

positron wrote: »

...
And this too. If I recall the exchange, he said 'it's very clever engineering', and you said 'there is no conspiracy', and I think he replied 'its no accident'. You suggested Ken is calling it a CT, and now you are saying he's 'bollocks' fo thinking its CT. That's how I see it, feel free to disagree....

I didn't say that he's 'bollocks'; I said that his claim that "The TOLL on Drogheda is no accident but very clever engineering" was "total bollocks" (you understand, attacking the post but not the poster).

Lord TSC

I think you are just being tounge-in-cheek, but you failed to acknowledge that he answered your concern about removing the tolls - you had assumed Councillor is proposing some sort of illegal demolish without discussion sort of thing - and here he clarified that they are in discussion with the concerned parties - nothing illegal etc. I suppose we have to give credit where it's due.

Ah now, hang on. It's not that I'm trying to say he's going to personally take a sledgehammer and that one morning, we'll wake to find him standing over the remains of the place. I'm not suggesting he wants to do anything illegal; I'm saying he doesn't have a legal foot to stand on in terms of asking the toll to be abolished, but thats not the same as saying I think he's about to do something illegal.

From what I have read so far, I am supporting this. I am sure there's a few others who have expressed support here in this thread. I don't know about his photos etc - may be he can explain?

And have you ever attended any of the protests? Have you done anything to actually further the campaign?

If I can use a metaphor, it's all well and good when politicans get people to agree to vote for them when canvasing door to door, but if people don't go to the polls, support means nothing...
I highly doubt an online petition with a few hundred names means anything to the company involved when they are collecting money from thousands of people every week. A few supportive messages on a forum board means nothing if the supporters don't actually do anything of real value...

kwoods

The problem here is that only a very short stretch of road is tolled. The rest of it is free. You can go from one side of drogheda to the other and pay a toll. But you can drive from belfast to dublin on motorway, skip one little stretch and drogheda and pay nothing.

That makes NO sense. It should work like it does in france, you pay for the portion you use. Id have no problem paying 10cents to go from one side of drogheda to the other. Drivers going belfast-dublin should pay a much higher fee, with no incentive for skipping the bridge at drogheda.

Banana republic. Fine whoever aint gonna fix it. Neither will the lefty technical group headbangers or the unions. Need a revolution.

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

southlouth type wrote: »

How about the entire toll system being few miles north to dundalk ? would love see how much you are in favour off it then FFS Why should the toll be in Drogheda and not dundalk , Balbrigan etc . Why Drogheda ?

I would not wish nor support such a proposal. As the placing of a TOLL on entering Dundalk or Balbriggan would be equally damaging as the Drogheda TOLL is on us.
But you have raised a legitimate question and those that advocate the Ramp Toll on the Donore Road have so far failed to address this question.

CMpunked wrote: »

What if the company who erected the toll plaza on the south side of the town does in fact end up removing it, only to erect one on the opposite side of the bridge at the mell/tullyallen entrance to the motorway?

The focus of the campaign is to have the ramp TOLLS removed and Make Drogheda Toll Free. A proposal such as the one proffered may not lend itself to the build environment.
I am heartened that contributors are now looking at the Donore Road J9 without Tolls and that should be viewed as a positive move.

Scotty # wrote: »

jobs would be lost as a result of the closure of the toll booths,.

I have sought the removal of the Donore Road Ramp Toll and clearly stated that the company would suffer no job losses due to the reform of the TOLLS.

Scotty # wrote: »

I think there is a serious flaw in our toll system in this country. eg. Someone driving from Balbriggan to Whitehall pays nothing. Someone driving from Drogheda to Balbriggan pays €3.60. Why should the people who have to use the part where the toll booth is located be the ones to pay for the WHOLE motorway??.

I agree the system is seriously flawed.

Lord TSC

I have sought the removal of the Donore Road Ramp Toll and clearly stated that the company would suffer no job losses due to the reform of the TOLLS.

So what happens the people who operate the tolls when the toll boths are removed?

CMpunked

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

that the company would suffer no job losses due to the reform of the TOLLS.

Reform? Your going to reform the tolls?
So your either going to have them relocated or going to try and make an arrangement to lower the cost or something?
Either way there is no way to abolish the TOLLS totally without those who work in it losing their jobs.

Scotty #

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

I have sought the removal of the Donore Road Ramp Toll and clearly stated that the company would suffer no job losses due to the reform of the TOLLS.

This is nonsense!! Plain and simple. There would absolutely be job losses as a result of the closure or do you expect all other staff to take a reduction in hours (and income) to divide up the workload with the surplus staff? Please give details of this 'Toll Reform' you mention.

Do you have any fact/figures/statistics/studies to support any of your claims regarding the numbers avoiding the toll? what reduction in traffic will the by-roads have? what extra traffic will be using the new 'rat run' between the ramps? what are the current figures? Do you know any of this information?????

The €2.5M the tax payer has earned from the toll... can we afford to give that up or do you have any suggestion where that can be recouped in future?

Do you honestly believe the time and effort you are investing in this campaign is worth it considering what other causes are out there at the moment?

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

So what happens the people who operate the tolls when the toll boths are removed?

The reform of the Drogheda TOLLS regime will require agreement on all sides and any speculation or statements by me on the possible outcome would be inappropriate at this time.

Scotty #

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

The reform of the Drogheda TOLLS regime will require agreement on all sides and any speculation or statements by me on the possible outcome would be inappropriate at this time.

You've just stated there would be no job losses and now your saying statements from you would be inappropriate!!

Your credibility is taking a blow with every word you utter on here, it really is.

Lord TSC

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

The reform of the Drogheda TOLLS regime will require agreement on all sides and any speculation or statements by me on the possible outcome would be inappropriate at this time.

But all you've been doing for weeks is making speculations? What changed this monring that you now realise it's inappropriate to make grandoise claims like "No jobs will be lost"?

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

Scotty # wrote: »

This is nonsense!! Plain and simple. There would absolutely be job losses as a result of the closure or do you expect all other staff to take a reduction in hours (and income) to divide up the workload with the surplus staff? Please give details of this 'Toll Reform' you mention.

Do you have any fact/figures/statistics/studies to support any of your claims regarding the numbers avoiding the toll? what reduction in traffic will the by-roads have? what extra traffic will be using the new 'rat run' between the ramps? what are the current figures? Do you know any of this information?????

The €2.5M the tax payer has earned from the toll... can we afford to give that up or do you have any suggestion where that can be recouped in future?

Do you honestly believe the time and effort you are investing in this campaign is worth it considering what other causes are out there at the moment?

At present the Toll booths have attendance in place for 18hours and the remaining time is by self service / electronic barriers. This cost saving measure by the Toll operators has resulted in delayed journey times.

At our face to face meeting with the NRA it was agreed to carry out a joint study of the through traffic diverting onto the local road network to avoid the M1 TOLLS. It is accepted that of the 30.000 vehicles per day that use the M1 a significant number are diverting.

A survey on the Make Drogheda Toll Free web site confirms that 84% vehicles avoid the Tolls and 16% pay and use the Donore Road.

I agree there is many worthwhile causes and I have been to the forefront in supporting two other groups recently such as Drogheda Homeless Aid 24hr sleep out and the Save Drogheda Cottage Hospital campaign.

The Make Drogheda Toll Free campaign is an achievable goal.

Lord TSC

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

At present the Toll booths have attendance in place for 18hours and the remaining time is by self service / electronic barriers. This cost saving measure by the Toll operators has resulted in delayed journey times.

What cost saving measure? The fact there's a self-service barrirer for 6 of the 24 hours during the day? Out of interest, at what times are the self-service barriers in use? One would imagine it's only late at night and not at rush hour traffic, so I can't see that causing a huge delay. If anything, I would have presume not having to sit waiting for change from a physical person would actually make it faster going through....

At our face to face meeting with the NRA it was agreed to carry out a joint study of the through traffic diverting onto the local road network to avoid the M1 TOLLS. It is accepted that of the 30.000 vehicles per day that use the M1 a significant number are diverting.

A survey on the Make Drogheda Toll Free web site confirms that 84% vehicles avoid the Tolls and 16% pay and use the Donore Road.

I see what you're trying there. You're trying to make it look like you know for sure that 84% of the 30,000 avoid the tolls, when that's not the facts at all. You've thrown two completly seperate set of stats up in the hopes people will take them as corelated.

No offence, but a survey on your obviously biased website is not going to be a very credible source. How many people have filled out this survey? How many people, in comparison, have visited your site and chosen not to fill it out? Is there any figures from non-biased sources? Have the NRA carried out it's own study? What are the results from that study? Where has this figure of 30,000 come from? You're going to need to provide a lot more data before we can accept those figures as being credible.

The Make Drogheda Toll Free campaign is an achievable goal.

So achieveable that after five years, you've had zero progress. What's the time frame on this goal, out of interest? How long do you see this campaign lasting? What goals have you for this time next year, or two years time? Or five? How long do you think this goal will take to achieve?

Also, you may not have seen this question in the other topic, but on average, how long does it take you to reply to emails? I sent one to you last Friday and have yet to get a reply...

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Also, you may not have seen this question in the other topic, but on average, how long does it take you to reply to emails? I sent one to you last Friday and have yet to get a reply...

I did'nt recive an email from you.

Lord TSC

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

I did'nt recive an email from you.

Really? I sent it to the address listed here. Namely the ken.oheiligh@droghedaboro.ie address. Is that out of date now? If so, could you get someone to fix that up?

Also, care to address any of the other questions?

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Really? I sent it to the address listed here. Namely the ken.oheiligh@droghedaboro.ie address. Is that out of date now? If so, could you get someone to fix that up? QUOTE]

If you care to check the details on the Council Web site you will notice that there are two email addresses published. The first email address is my personal one and I have no access to Council email.