Make Drogheda Toll Free

Lord TSC

K nacker wrote: »

I think a lot posters are missing the point here. The petition is to abolish the RAMP toll on the Donore road(which Im all for) not the M1 motorway toll. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Surely that makes no sense; what would be to stop people driving down one ramp and up another? Surely that would simply to encourage people to come off the motorway and drive through town roads, thus worsening the traffic problems people are complaining about?

Anyway,I hd said I'd respond to Kaylee but I think everything I was going to respond with has been said now anyway, short of driving the topic down a different direction.

However, I lose respect for politicians who come on boards.ie to try and gain publicity and then disappear the second someone starts asking "tough" questions. What I find funny is I can't imagine the questions we, simple internet message board users, are asking are any more difficult than those which will be asked by the people who actually run the toll bridge itself and those whose support would be needed to change things. Its not that we're asking the really tough or akward questions...

borderlinemeath

locum-motion wrote: »

No, I don't. I now live in Cork, but I'm from Dundalk. So now, when I go home for the weekend, I go through 4 tolls. Do you hear me complaining about it?

For most of the last 8 or so years, I was living in Dundalk and working predominantly in Dublin. Did you hear me complaining about the toll then?

If you bothered to read my earlier posts I have no problem using tolls when I am using the motorway for a decent distance. ie Drogheda to Dundalk or Dublin. It's having to pay to go the distance between one or two exits. I live slightly south of J9 and would far rather use the motorway to get to J10 rather than going through the town. But paying a toll for such a short distance is not worth it, so I suffer the traffic through the town to reach my destination, be it the M1 retail Pk or even the Lourdes Hospital is easier to reach via the motorway from my home.

So you still don't really have an answer for how you decide who gets your "rebate", do you? I mean, how do you decide what "a Drogheda address" is?
And anyway, what makes a person with a Drogheda address so fecking special that they get a rebate and someone with a Donore/Duleek/Monasterboice/
Dunleer or even Dundalk address doesn't? Why should you get to use the motorway for free and I shouldn't?

If you're from Dundalk, you can use the motorway to get from one end of Dundalk town to the other for free. So why should Drogheda residents have to pay to do the same in their town??

I'm baffled. Perhaps you could enlighten me as to which 2 parts of Drogheda you would use the toll road to get to and from (IF it wasn't tolled), that aren't easier to travel between along the dual-carriageway and the Bridge of Peace anyway?
If I wanted to get from, say, Ballsgrove to Mell, I wouldn't go anywhere near the motorway anyway, toll or no toll.

A lot of shoppers go between the two retail parks.

If you lived in Ballsgrove/Rathmullen Pk and needed to get to the Lourdes the quickest way would be via the motorway, exit at J9, enter at J10, through the roundabouts, then via Crosslanes. Otherwise go through the town, through at least 7 sets of traffic lights on the most direct route. Luckily I haven't had to test the route in an emergency, because it takes about 20 minutes off peak and can take twice as long during rush hour or bad weather.

Lord TSC

Well, I'd hope in an emergency, the idea of paying 3€ wouldn't put someone off taking the quickest route to the hospital? :P

CMpunked

borderlinemeath wrote: »

If you bothered to read my earlier posts I have no problem using tolls when I am using the motorway for a decent distance. ie Drogheda to Dundalk or Dublin. It's having to pay to go the distance between one or two exits. I live slightly south of J9 and would far rather use the motorway to get to J10 rather than going through the town.
A lot of shoppers go between the two retail parks.

Your missing the point here also, the bridge ISNT MEANT for drogheda residents to be able to get from one side of the river to the other quickly.
Its for vehicles traveling from dundalk to dublin, belfast to dublin, whatever.
Not for the likes of some people who would like to check the prices between homebase and woodies.

Also, would the €1.80 charge not be a lot cheaper than going into the town and as you said, stoping and starting so much that ends up costing you more €1.80?

If you lived in Ballsgrove/Rathmullen Pk and needed to get to the Lourdes the quickest way would be via the motorway, exit at J9, enter at J10, through the roundabouts, then via Crosslanes. Otherwise go through the town, through at least 7 sets of traffic lights on the most direct route. Luckily I haven't had to test the route in an emergency, because it takes about 20 minutes off peak and can take twice as long during rush hour or bad weather.

IF i was in an emergency situation i dont think i would have any problem paying the toll to, as you said, get to the hospital quicker. I dont see the problem in this.

CMpunked

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Well, I'd hope in an emergency, the idea of paying 3€ wouldn't put someone off taking the quickest route to the hospital? :P

Cheaper than an ambulance! :pac:

K nacker

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Surely that makes no sense; what would be to stop people driving down one ramp and up another? Surely that would simply to encourage people to come off the motorway and drive through town roads, thus worsening the traffic problems people are complaining about?

Driving from Dundalk to Dublin or vise versa. They pay at the toll to get into the Drogheda Retail Park and pay at the toll to get back onto the motorway. Does make sense.

borderlinemeath

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Well, I'd hope in an emergency, the idea of paying 3€ wouldn't put someone off taking the quickest route to the hospital? :P

I would hope in an emergency I would have spare change in the car, I wouldn't be guaranteed to have cash on me all the time.

borderlinemeath

CMpunked wrote: »

Your missing the point here also, the bridge ISNT MEANT for drogheda residents to be able to get from one side of the river to the other quickly.
Its for vehicles traveling from dundalk to dublin, belfast to dublin, whatever.
Not for the likes of some people who would like to check the prices between homebase and woodies.

You're missing the point, my issue isn't the bridge, it's the charge to get out of Drogheda/into Drogheda onto the motorway at this point. The charge is not in Dundalk/Swords/Balbriggan or any other exit on the motorway except Drogheda.

Also, would the €1.80 charge not be a lot cheaper than going into the town and as you said, stoping and starting so much that ends up costing you more €1.80?

I doubt it, I have a very economical car.

IF i was in an emergency situation i dont think i would have any problem paying the toll to, as you said, get to the hospital quicker. I dont see the problem in this.

Neither would I, but there's plenty of people living hand to mouth that might not have the spare change. I usually carry a bit of spare change in the car, but I've got less and less due to using it to buy groceries, essentials etc.

Lord TSC

K nacker wrote: »

Driving from Dundalk to Dublin or vise versa. They pay at the toll to get into the Drogheda Retail Park and pay at the toll to get back onto the motorway. Does make sense.

Why are we speaking in a bigger font than the default one?
You're the second person to do it now. If one was a conspiracy theorist, one could make assumptions

Regardless, my point stands. The idea of getting rid of the tolls at the ramps would be open hugely to abuse. If the idea was to move them to another ramp, fair and good, or to a stretch of road where there wasn't a chance to escape and abuse the system, fine. But just removing them for entering and exiting the town, and not making overhauls to the main one as well, would lead to even more people coming into the town to avoid the toll, thus leading to more congestion.

As for the emergency part, I'd argue that's more of a case for a toll tag system rather than an abolition of the toll. If there was a way of going through the toll and paying it afterwards, ala the one closer to Dublin, that would make the arguement about not having cash in an emergency void.

EDIT:
Someone here at home spotted this quote...

Neither would I, but there's plenty of people living hand to mouth that might not have the spare change.

...and responded that if you're really having trouble affording the toll, then being able to afford the car nessecary to be in the situation to be tolled could be called into question as well...

digitaldarragh

CMpunked, As I said on Friday, the change in font was not intentional. There are no font changes in Braille.

K nacker

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Why are we speaking in a bigger font than the default one?
You're the second person to do it now. If one was a conspiracy theorist, one could make assumptions


SORRY ABOUT THAT.

Joking aside ,I cant spell to save my life. so its a case of Word cut and paste.

conspircy theory put to bed.

Lord TSC

@DD

1. It wasn't CMPunked who brought it up again, I did <_<
2. I wasn't addressing the DigitalDaragh account that time, I was talking to k nacker.

@K
3. To close quotes, add [/quote] to the end of the quoted section.

EDIT:

@DD again

4. Now you've resurfaced, are you going to address the question both you and your father have now ignored, or are we going to keep pretending it doesn't exist...

Lord TSC

K nacker wrote: »

Joking aside ,I cant spell to save my life. so its a case of Word cut and paste.

conspircy theory put to bed.

Huh, didn't realise it would copy over formatting as well. That's cool if it does, but trying on word, and I can't figure out how to do that? What word processor are you using?

K nacker

Microsoft office word 2003.

now back to the business end, We loveTolls.

southlouth type

How about the entire toll system being few miles north to dundalk ? would love see how much you are in favour off it then FFS :mad: Why should the toll be in Drogheda and not dundalk , Balbrigan etc . Why Drogheda ?

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

Mr_Hat wrote: »

It seems to me that what Cllr Healy should focus on is not wasting his time on some populist tosh about abolishing toll, that might get him in the paper. But look at a new traffic bridge across the Boyne. Which he might just be able to pull off. I actually think he has a better chance of getting two new bridges across the boyne. Then abolishing the toll.

But I suppose that would require some real polticking and not just silly stunts and polls that get you in the paper.

I also see Cllr Healy hasnt come back to answer any of the questions put to him. Says it all really

The point you raised about an additional bridge crossing is a valid one and just to explain that in 2007 I carried out an assessment of the internal road network and identified a suitable location for such a crossing at upper Mell connecting to the upper Rathmullen Road.
I put the following motion to the Borough Council which received the full support of the Council and the Development Plan for the Town was amended accordingly.

“That this Borough Council identify and reserve free from future development a western link road between the north and south of the town that will cater for future traffic flows and that the Development Plan be amended to incorporate such a route.”

So on this point we are in agreement and while I face an uphill battle just getting one bridge in place it will be a tall ask to get two, but thank you for the support.

borderlinemeath

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Regardless, my point stands. The idea of getting rid of the tolls at the ramps would be open hugely to abuse. If the idea was to move them to another ramp, fair and good, or to a stretch of road where there wasn't a chance to escape and abuse the system, fine. But just removing them for entering and exiting the town, and not making overhauls to the main one as well, would lead to even more people coming into the town to avoid the toll, thus leading to more congestion.

I don't know anybody who drives the whole way through Drogheda (from Julianstown to J10, Drogheda North) to avoid the toll. I'm sure there are some people with a spare half an hr/40mins to spare, but if I was bypassing the town, I would use the toll.

However, If I were coming from Dundalk to go home and if I had the time, I would exit at J10 rather than J9 and avoid the toll. As a Drogheda resident it is worth it to come off the motorway one exit early. Not so good for the congestion and town residents but If the ramp toll was lifted I would use J9 and avoid 8 sets of traffic lights and not block up the town.

CMpunked

digitaldarragh wrote: »

CMpunked, As I said on Friday, the change in font was not intentional. There are no font changes in Braille.

Whew! Thought i was getting a rap from a mod there.

I do find the similar font sizes between yourself and the councillor a little too coincidental. But i suppose thats what i get for subscribing to the conspiracy forum.

Mr_Hat

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

The point you raised about an additional bridge crossing is a valid one and just to explain that in 2007 I carried out an assessment of the internal road network and identified a suitable location for such a crossing at upper Mell connecting to the upper Rathmullen Road.
I put the following motion to the Borough Council which received the full support of the Council and the Development Plan for the Town was amended accordingly.

“That this Borough Council identify and reserve free from future development a western link road between the north and south of the town that will cater for future traffic flows and that the Development Plan be amended to incorporate such a route.”

So on this point we are in agreement and while I face an uphill battle just getting one bridge in place it will be a tall ask to get two, but thank you for the support.

Thanks for the response. I wish you would focus your energies on acquiring funding for a new bridge new bridge. Then on silly publicity stunts and all this nonsense of abolishing tolls. I would also have a lot more respect for you.

It would be great if you could respond to the other questions put to you be the rest of the posters.

Mr_Hat

Nice font

locum-motion

borderlinemeath wrote: »

...If you lived in Ballsgrove/Rathmullen Pk and needed to get to the Lourdes the quickest way would be via the motorway, exit at J9, enter at J10, through the roundabouts, then via Crosslanes. Otherwise go through the town, through at least 7 sets of traffic lights on the most direct route. Luckily I haven't had to test the route in an emergency, because it takes about 20 minutes off peak and can take twice as long during rush hour or bad weather.

Horse****!

Look at the attached images from Google Maps for iPhone.
The first shows a route from Rathmullan Park to the Hospital. It's 3km.
The second and third between them show the route via junctions 9 and 10. It totals 9.5km, of which 3.1km is motorway (the 4th image).

There is absolutely no way that it is faster to drive along 6.4km of non-motorway + 3.1km of motorway than it is to drive the 3.0km through the town!

http://yfrog.com/mf1w3cj
http://yfrog.com/keirjkoj
http://yfrog.com/me673wj
http://yfrog.com/h6gw5kvj

Scotty #

I have no problem paying tolls as long as it means faster journeys on better roads but I think there is a serious flaw in our toll system in this country.

eg. Someone driving from Balbriggan to Whitehall pays nothing. Someone driving from Drogheda to Balbriggan pays €3.60. Why should the people who have to use the part where the toll booth is located be the ones to pay for the WHOLE motorway while many thousands of other drivers (who may use the road for a further distance) never have to pay anything??


You should be charged for the amount of motorway you use. Lets say, about 20c for every exit you pass. With the camera license plate reading technology they have now this should be very easy to implement.

Lord TSC

It's one thing that strikes me about travel in America; rather than one big toll, they have regular toll booths that are only $1 each, meaning you pay as you drive as Scotty says.

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

locum-motion wrote: »

I can confirm that there is no toll to enter any town anywhere in the country.
In various locations, there are tolls to use certain specified stretches of motorway.
In the case of the Drogheda area, the relevant section is between the junction at CityNorth hotel and the junction just north of the river.
It's simple, if you wish to use that section, you pay. If you don't want to pay, then don't use that section.
As has been pointed out, the toll doesn't deny the use of any pre-existing road to those who are unwilling to pay.

One major problem with the 'let the locals use it for free' argument is how to decide who gets to use it for free. Should it be everyone who lives in Drogheda, within a mile/2 miles/5 miles/whatever of the Donore junction? What about people who don't live in that radius, but do work within it? If the radius is set at say 2 miles, then what about the people who live 2.1 miles away? I say 'Bugger that!' If you start introducing exemptions, where do you stop? And anyway, it could easily be argued that those who live in Drogheda get the greatest benefit from the road's existence, as their quality of life must be greatly improved by the removal of so much traffic from the town. If locals don't have to pay, then those who benefit most don't have to pay. Sorry, but that's just unfair.

Another argument is this one: Tolls are an expense involved in running a car in this country, and should be regarded as such. Tax, Insurance, Fuel, Maintenance, Tolls. You all (hopefully!) pay the first four on that list. You aren't complaining about them. The fifth is just another fact of life. Quit whining, pay the effing toll if you want to use the road, and if you don't want to pay, don't use the road.

Your choice.

I would take the view that the Tolls on the Donore Road is in effect a second Toll and its strategic positioning is all about maximising the cash flow at the expense of local commuters and businesses.
You state “In various locations, there are tolls to use certain specified stretches of motorway”. While this may be the case I would argue that the Donore Road ramp tolls ability to produce revenue would not exceed the financial losses that our citizens and business have experienced since their arrival.

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

Scotty # wrote: »

I have no problem paying tolls as long as it means faster journeys on better roads but I think there is a serious flaw in our toll system in this country.

eg. Someone driving from Balbriggan to Whitehall pays nothing. Someone driving from Drogheda to Balbriggan pays €3.60. Why should the people who have to use the part where the toll booth is located be the ones to pay for the WHOLE motorway while many thousands of other drivers (who may use the road for a further distance) never have to pay anything??


You should be charged for the amount of motorway you use. Lets say, about 20c for every exit you pass. With the camera license plate reading technology they have now this should be very easy to implement.

Well Scotty I can agree with the eg. and it often made me wonder why we in Drogheda are forced to carry such a heavy burden.

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

locum-motion wrote: »

Horse****!

Look at the attached images from Google Maps for iPhone.
The first shows a route from Rathmullan Park to the Hospital. It's 3km.
The second and third between them show the route via junctions 9 and 10. It totals 9.5km, of which 3.1km is motorway (the 4th image).

There is absolutely no way that it is faster to drive along 6.4km of non-motorway + 3.1km of motorway than it is to drive the 3.0km through the town!

http://yfrog.com/mf1w3cj
http://yfrog.com/keirjkoj
http://yfrog.com/me673wj
http://yfrog.com/h6gw5kvj

It is an interesting hypostatises but the facts on the ground don’t back it up

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

bigneacy wrote: »

And where would you suggest they put the tolls then? Or, is the toll - in your wise opinion, not necessary?

How is this toll a strangehold on Drogheda? Is it impossible to access the town without using the motorway?

I'd also love to hear about the negative effects the toll is having on Drogheda? The two thriving retail parks, north and south? The huge motor-dealer complex on the Donore road? The designer shopping centre Scotch Hall? These were all developed after the motorway and tolls came.

West street? That's been in decline a long time, before the motorway - and the drogheda borough council put the nail in that coffin when they destroyed the street. And, even still, it's nowhere near as bad as Dundalk's clanbrassil street....

The motorway isn't there for Drogheda residents to get their kids to school or get from one part of Drogheda to another - it was never promised for that and never intended for such a use - there are plenty of backroads to get around the town. It wasn't built as a slip road for you to get to aunty mary's house, and if you wish to use it in that way - pay the €1.80, and don't forget your 'going through' pass.

So, for the life of me - I can't see what damage the motorway and toll plaza's are doing to Drogheda - enlighten me? I can't see Homebase, blackstone motors, TK Maxx, Tesco, etc. etc. complaining about it either, for that matter.

For your enlightenment the following is the wording of the Make Drogheda Toll Free petition:

“We, the undersigned, formally petition you to remove the Toll Ramps on the Donore Road which is the main artery road into Drogheda, Junction 9 from the M1. We say that the Toll Booths are a barrier to daily local vehicular use, for schools and for employment and partitions our two main shopping retail parks. Direct access to our Industrial Area and IDA Park is channelled via the Ramp Toll. We call on you to Make Drogheda Toll Free”.
I welcome the announcement that the business community is preparing action against the negative effects of the Donore Road Ramp Tolls. Padraic Kierans, President of the Drogheda & District Chamber who is launching a very visible press, poster and car bumper campaign, under the slogan Drogheda goal: No More Toll. This will be launched early September.
On election as President Padraic Kierans issued a letter to the National Roads Authority seeking a meeting with their CEO to call for the immediate removal of the Toll On / Off Ramp at the Donore Road entrance to Drogheda. Padraic Kierans, President said, This is in effect a TAX on the citizens and business people of Drogheda. It is unjust, unfair and downright unacceptable.

Lord TSC

Counciller.

While I would welcome the dismissal of the tolls, I have to ask the question again, and I ask it because I presume it would have been the first question asked to you when you proposed this change to the people behind the tolls, but which has been widely ignored by yourself and your son...

Building the road cost money and obviously the tolls are designed to recoup some of that money in order to pay for the benefits brought on my the motorway. If the tolls were abolished on the ramps, how would you propose the money be made up, given this would case a huge loss in revenue? I would imagine (and you're the one with the research in this area, presumably) that when the road was built, a price was given for the road and that it is still being paid back and the money recouped; are you proposing that we should just ignore the fact we owe money for the road or have you an alternative as to how that money could be collected?

Also, can I ask (and I don't mean this smartly; genuinely interested in the answer) did you oppose the introductions of the tolls back when they were first implemented? Did you fight hard back when this was still in the planning stages, development stages, construction stages and the time straight after their completion? (presumably if you did, there's proof and you can offer us examples of your actions).

Or is this really just a recent project started up by you to garner some positive publicity? A project you know will go nowhere (cause truth be told I have no doubt this will fall on deaf ears and the tolls will remain) but will make you look very good to the local people of Drogheda?


EDIT: Just to add...I think what really annoys me about this is you obviously want to get the publicity by going after something thats affecting people's way of life, but in a town like Drogheda, there's far better uses of your time. Drogheda is suffering as a town rife with unemployment and social problems, problems which really deserve a lot more attention than the tolls, but instead of tackling a real problem, you're dealing with what really amounts to an inconvience. If you're doing this cause you believe it will help the town then fine. But there are so many worse problems in the town right now, first and foremost the staggering unemployment rates, that I wonder why you're doing this campaign and not one to tackle genuine problems.

bigneacy

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

For your enlightenment the following is the wording of the Make Drogheda Toll Free petition:

“We, the undersigned, formally petition you to remove the Toll Ramps on the Donore Road which is the main artery road into Drogheda, Junction 9 from the M1. We say that the Toll Booths are a barrier to daily local vehicular use, for schools and for employment and partitions our two main shopping retail parks. Direct access to our Industrial Area and IDA Park is channelled via the Ramp Toll. We call on you to Make Drogheda Toll Free”.
I welcome the announcement that the business community is preparing action against the negative effects of the Donore Road Ramp Tolls. Padraic Kierans, President of the Drogheda & District Chamber who is launching a very visible press, poster and car bumper campaign, under the slogan Drogheda goal: No More Toll. This will be launched early September.
On election as President Padraic Kierans issued a letter to the National Roads Authority seeking a meeting with their CEO to call for the immediate removal of the Toll On / Off Ramp at the Donore Road entrance to Drogheda. Padraic Kierans, President said, This is in effect a TAX on the citizens and business people of Drogheda. It is unjust, unfair and downright unacceptable.

?!

You've just copy and pasted a random paragraph from your website - Its not even in reference to what I said in my post.

You didn't address any of my post at all!?! If you are going to respond then actually read my post, and contruct a response - don't paste the opening paragraph from your website, especially if its just publicity chit chat that in no way extends beyond the question avoidance you and your son have already been practicing on this forum.

Do you even know why you are protesting the toll booth other than "traffic"? Do you honestly have any reason other than that!?!

Traffic congestion is not a good enough reason Cllr. - Drogheda was congested LONG before the motorway came along.

The two retail parks are doing fantastically well, as are the Motor dealers and IDA park and industrial units. This is all despite the "crippling" toll booths.

Believe it or not the M1 motorway was not built so Mrs O Reilly could get Jack and Sarah to school in record time, it was also not built for her to get from TX Maxx to Jackie Skellies for her 11am Spinning class without having to drive past McDonald's.

So, I ask again Cllr. Please enlighten me and the rest of the Louth forum, why exactly should the M1, Donore Road on-off ramp tolls be removed?

EDIT: Just to note - I am also not in favour of tolls in general - I HATE having to fork over that money, but things have to be paid for - and as I already said I'd rather pay my 1.80 than have to suffer another stealth tax or have further taxes imposed on the poorest of our country just because we didn't want to pay a toll. I agree wholeheartledly with everything Teamshadowclan said above. Please stop treating your constituents like mindless morons and actually do something that will benefit them and not your career and your (more than likely it seems) upcoming campaign for Dáil Éireann.

borderlinemeath

locum-motion wrote: »

Horse****!

Look at the attached images from Google Maps for iPhone.
The first shows a route from Rathmullan Park to the Hospital. It's 3km.
The second and third between them show the route via junctions 9 and 10. It totals 9.5km, of which 3.1km is motorway (the 4th image).

There is absolutely no way that it is faster to drive along 6.4km of non-motorway + 3.1km of motorway than it is to drive the 3.0km through the town!

http://yfrog.com/mf1w3cj
http://yfrog.com/keirjkoj
http://yfrog.com/me673wj
http://yfrog.com/h6gw5kvj

It is actually can be quicker due to the lack of traffic lights, and speed limits both on the motorway and the N51/NI North Rd.

There was a day last year when I spent an hour getting from my house to the fairgreen. Traffic was backed up, weather was bad (it wasn't snowing or freezing) and generally it took at least 2/3 turns to get through sets of traffic lights at Mary St/Dublin Rd and the set at the Donore Rd.