Make Drogheda Toll Free

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

CMpunked wrote: »

Dont want to drag the thread off topic, but i really hope it does go somewhere.
Whatever the reasons that it had been halted have been written to history, but i really do hope that sometime in the near future it gets restarted again.
I still know a few people around my age (early 20s) who were only teenagers when the campaign was started, who would be still very much interested in starting it again.
Is there any hope at this stage, ken, honestly?

I believe that if a unified group representing all skateboards agreed on a site. We would then be in a much stronger position to progress the project.

CMpunked

Ken, in effort not to derail the thread, but still continue asking your opinion on the skateboarding issue, ive moved my questions into the more open thread. If you could answer them there and free up space here for anyone discussing the tolls.

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

Lilah Small Pilot wrote: »

Drogheda businesses have actually been fairing better than their counterparts in Dundalk for the past 3 years.

Drogheda’s percentage of people on the Live Register has been consistently higher than Dundalk over the past three years. The most recent figure shows 28.3% of Drogheda population on the live register compared to Dundalk 24.2%. That equates to Drogheda having 1104 extra people on the live register. So Drogheda is consistently hit harder and is not fairing better than TOLL free Dundalk.

I would request any on Board users that are in agreement with the removal of the Donore Road ramp toll to visit www.makedroghedatollfree.com and sign the petition.

Peppa Pig

This project is fully funded through the collection of tolls located south of the Boyne near Drogheda.
The above is from Celtic Road Groups.

I presume this is the toll at Gormanstown.
So what happens to the money collected at the Donore road? Genuine question, btw

Lord TSC

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

Drogheda’s percentage of people on the Live Register has been consistently higher than Dundalk over the past three years. The most recent figure shows 28.3% of Drogheda population on the live register compared to Dundalk 24.2%. That equates to Drogheda having 1104 extra people on the live register. So Drogheda is consistently hit harder and is not fairing better than TOLL free Dundalk.
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It really irks me that the implication is that it's the toll's fault Drogheda has a higher rate of unemployment. I get abolishing the toll would be handy and would save some money but this constant line that the toll is causing Drogheda's higher rate of unemployment is ridiculous.

You know what causes Drogheda's higher rate of unemployment? The fact that it's seen as a legit lifestyle in Drogheda to have kids young, families by 20 and be on multiple state benefits as quickly as possible. It's acceptable in Drogheda to have a life fully funded by the government. It's not the damn tolls. It's the social aspect of Drogheda that its perfectly accepted by a hugh group of people in the town that you can live a certain lifestyle which is benefited by being unemployed. On top of that, the town has a massive drinking culture, which is countrywide but far more prevelant in Drogheda, whereby you go out drinking 6 nights a week and pay for that by being unemployed.

If you really believe that the tolls are the reason Drogheda has a higher rate of unemployment, I have to say you're deluded...

Fingers Mcginty

*petition signed* ....Realistically though what are the chances of getting this toll removed specifically the Drogheda entrance/exit?

Scotty #

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It really irks me that the implication is that it's the toll's fault Drogheda has a higher rate of unemployment. I get abolishing the toll would be handy and would save some money but this constant line that the toll is causing Drogheda's higher rate of unemployment is ridiculous.

You know what causes Drogheda's higher rate of unemployment? The fact that it's seen as a legit lifestyle in Drogheda to have kids young, families by 20 and be on multiple state benefits as quickly as possible. It's acceptable in Drogheda to have a life fully funded by the government. It's not the damn tolls. It's the social aspect of Drogheda that its perfectly accepted by a hugh group of people in the town that you can live a certain lifestyle which is benefited by being unemployed. On top of that, the town has a massive drinking culture, which is countrywide but far more prevelant in Drogheda, whereby you go out drinking 6 nights a week and pay for that by being unemployed.

If you really believe that the tolls are the reason Drogheda has a higher rate of unemployment, I have to say you're deluded...

I agree that tolls have liitle or no impact (still waiting on evidence on other thread) on the towns economics.

But I would disagree that socially Drogheda is different to any other similar sized town in the country. Not that I have noticed anyway.

I put Drogheda's higher rate of unemployment down to the fact that it is probably more of an industrial town than Dundalk and other similar sized towns. It relied more on industry than tourism, agriculture, fishing, etc and is suffering for it now.

Lord TSC

I know what I said may be a little bit contraversial, but I do really think that it is a major problem in Drogheda. I've never noticed half the number of "scangers" in any other town, except in Dublin. Yeah, other towns have the same problems, but not nearly to the same extent that our town does.

I also know that the failing industry thing is affecting Drogheda, as you said. I also know someone's going to twist that into a "Industry is failing cause there's tolls" arguement but that requires you to ignore the fact industry in Ireland is in major decline. Every day, you hear of Aviva or TalkTalk or the likes up and leaving far nicer areas than Drogheda.

Drogheda doesn't value education. It doesn't provide the same basics other towns do and it's suffering as a result. Rather, we've got a huge number of people who prefer to live on benefits, and we're stuck in a recession whereby it's impossible to create new industry. Even when people do want to make a change, it's near impossible to do so. And that's not the tolls fault. There's a list of reasons, and the tolls are on that list, but waay, waaaay down the bottom of it. And then you've got problems like Coke suffered where you had people utterly unwilling to take a cut despite the decline in Ireland's economic stability, and so companies up and move abroad (again, see Aviva and TalkTalk).

I'd also love to know the figures of unemployment in Drogheda and Dundalk before the toll was established as well. Presumably if Ken is going to say there's an imbalance in recent years, he can back it up by providing figures from before the tolls and showing there was a balance back then.

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh

Fingers Mcginty wrote: »

*petition signed* ....Realistically though what are the chances of getting this toll removed specifically the Drogheda entrance/exit?

Every signature added to the petition makes our case stronger. Thank you for signing the petition.
We will petition the Minister, the NRA and Celtic Roads Group. The Borough Council is hosting a petition booklet in the main reception area of the Council Offices. This is a first for any local Authority anywhere in the state. We are making history and our plan is consign the Donore Road Ramp Toll to the history books as well.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Cllr. Ken O Heiligh wrote: »

Drogheda’s percentage of people on the Live Register has been consistently higher than Dundalk over the past three years. The most recent figure shows 28.3% of Drogheda population on the live register compared to Dundalk 24.2%. That equates to Drogheda having 1104 extra people on the live register. So Drogheda is consistently hit harder and is not fairing better than TOLL free Dundalk.

Good God, Ken! There is a difference in how local businesses are performing and the live register figures. Ever hear of any people commuting? Not every person currently unemployed in Drogheda, or Dundalk worked in a local business in the town. Not all were in Retail either. If you look at this month's stats you'll see that people worked in Dublin and elsewhere and were made redundant. They live locally and are on the local register but the business that failed is eleswhere. This is the nonsense when people use bits and pieces of information to their cause but omit the bigger picture. It was referring to local business and in particular the retail trade (as that is who you claim tolls affect). While West Street in pitiful to see at the moment, there are many more empty units in Bridge st, Church st, Clanbrassil & Park St in Dundalk than you'll see in Drogheda. Even the newer retail parks and shopping centre there have many empty units - AND without the huge toll price drive customers away. Thats what I said and I don't appreciate you twisting it. Either you just refuse to accept a point or you throw it back suggesing it's wrong.

A great listening representative you are. Am I wrong or are public representatives meant to listen to their constituants and act on thier behalves rather than argue against every point they make.

Anyway, back to the unanswered questions: How much more damage has the toll done than the pay parking (yes you opposed it many moons ago yadda yadda; still goes on with you doing nothing about it) or the high level of rates being charged in Drogheda at the moment.

EI_Flyboy

Motorways are the safest roads to travel. Putting tolls on them is unsafe because people who avoid them push up the traffic volume on B roads leading to an increase in accidents and fatalities. Is the toll worth that?

Scotty #

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Motorways are the safest roads to travel. Putting tolls on them is unsafe because people who avoid them push up the traffic volume on B roads leading to an increase in accidents and fatalities. Is the toll worth that?

No toll = No motorway.

borderlinemeath

Please somebody clarify if I'm incorrect in stating this - but I do recall in the past reading that Dundalk was in receipt of extra state funding due to the nature of it being a border town - (going way back pre boom times) ie it was always viewed that Dundalk had a natural geographical disadvantage and extra funds were made available to compensate.

This may be a reason for unemployment being lower in Dundalk. May be.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Motorways are the safest roads to travel. Putting tolls on them is unsafe because people who avoid them push up the traffic volume on B roads leading to an increase in accidents and fatalities. Is the toll worth that?

Think about what you said there. If there was no motorway there would be even more cars on the minor roads, leading to more accidents. Motorways reduce accidents. Tools do not increase them.

Oh, and if there were no Tolls there would be no motorway.

P. Breathnach

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Motorways are the safest roads to travel. Putting tolls on them is unsafe because people who avoid them push up the traffic volume on B roads leading to an increase in accidents and fatalities. Is the toll worth that?

On an open road, mixing local traffic (usually travelling at a modest speed) with long-distance traffic (usually moving fairly fast) is not safe.

When I am travelling to or from Dublin, I don't want to get involved with people on school runs or going to the local shop to buy a newspaper and a carton of milk. Their driving and mine are likely to be quite different.

EI_Flyboy

Lilah Small Pilot wrote: »

Think about what you said there. If there was no motorway there would be even more cars on the minor roads, leading to more accidents. Motorways reduce accidents. Tools do not increase them.

Oh, and if there were no Tolls there would be no motorway.

Obtuse. You mean to say there'd be no motorway without money. There are other ways of generating money. There are lots of monies that the government is failing to collect, this and the last government. A sensible road tax is another one. It's just this state is in a shambles and we're to quick to take the easy option even when it's the most costly in the longrun. Too few people take the long view and too many are more interested in lining their own pockets or their immediate career.

Lord TSC

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

A sensible road tax is another one.

"Lets get rid of tolls...."

YEAY!

"...and replace them with taxes which hit everyone even if they don't use that road!"

.....

Yeah, can't see that one going down well with some people :P

EI_Flyboy

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

"Lets get rid of tolls...."

YEAY!

"...and replace them with taxes which hit everyone even if they don't use that road!"

.....

Yeah, can't see that one going down well with some people :P

Ya know, my taxes pay for roads down in Ballygobackwards that I'm never ever ever going to use. Do I think my taxes shouldn't pay for such roads? No.

Really, can't you even be bothered to come up with even a half thought out argument or are you purely nay-saying for the attention it gets you? I don't know.

Some people are just purely negative. Haven't you heard of "progression?" If the world was run by people with such an outlook, we'd probably never have left the homely comfort of our caves.

Lord TSC

Tbh, I wasn't commenting on my own personal opinion. At least taxes would be an alternative, which is something that hadn't been offered at all by Ken and his side of the debates. My point was I highly doubt the likes of Ken will ever propose a tax to replace the toll, since it counters the positive PR; I'd have no problem paying a tax for it, and I'm one of the people on this board who achknowledges there's a need for tax hikes in the country, but it wouldn't get good PR. People, in general, will object along the same line of (what is stupid) logic I used...

Scotty #

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Really, can't you even be bothered to come up with even a half thought out argument or are you purely nay-saying for the attention it gets you? I don't know.

You are suggesting scraping tolls in favour of raised taxes and yet you are accusing other people of coming up with 'half thought out arguments'?

When you want a road that cost hundreds of millions of euro to build the most logical way to pay for it is to toll it. This has been done all over the world and has proved extremely successful. The system in Ireland is unfair. But tolling is still the best way to fund it.

EI_Flyboy

Scotty # wrote: »

You are suggesting scraping tolls in favour of raised taxes and yet you are accusing other people of coming up with 'half thought out arguments'?

When you want a road that cost hundreds of millions of euro to build the most logical way to pay for it is to toll it. This has been done all over the world and has proved extremely successful. The system in Ireland is unfair. But tolling is still the best way to fund it.

A sensible tax. Toll roads have a hidden blood tax that goes with them but if you want to stick to fiscal values each work hour, let alone life that is lost, also costs the state money. Tolls are an archaic tax system which only truly work when there is no way to avoid them. Unless you're going to have a system like in Singapore or the London congestion charge which are completely unavoidable there will always be rat-runs and on these rat-runs there will be more accidents and possibile fatalities. Are you suggesting that the toll is more valuable than human life?

Scotty #

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Toll roads have a hidden blood tax that goes with them.

Source for this claim?

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Tolls are an archaic tax system which only truly work when there is no way to avoid them.

I agree that the system is flawed. Particularly in Drogheda. But abandoning the tolls with no regard for the consequences is where my problem lies with the councillor. He doesn't seem to have thought it through. Shame.

EI_Flyboy

Source: http://tomvanderbilt.com/traffic/

Get it, read it. It will make you a better driver. Everyone who uses a road should read it. Besides, I think it's pretty obvious that increasing traffic volume on a road is going to lead to a higher accident rate along it.

Many of the obvious solutions to traffic problems are often counter productive. However bad you think the councillor's argument is doesn't take away from the fact that the toll is a bad idea. Plus just because everyone along the way failed to see the problem doesn't mean the existing problem should be tolerated either. The toll company was quite happy to overcharge on that route and when they were asked to lower it down they gave us two fingers, I for one am not going to feel sorry for the cheeky fecks if they're made to scrap it.

Scotty #

Err nothing on that page regarding tolls causing an increase in accidents. Can you provide an actual link to your claim please?

EI_Flyboy

Scotty # wrote: »

Err nothing on that page regarding tolls causing an increase in accidents. Can you provide an actual link to your claim please?

My apologies, I wasn't clear! I meant the book:

http://tomvanderbilt.com/traffic/buy-the-book/

Chapters in Dublin usually have it discounted in their nonfiction section. A very interesting read.

Here's an article showing how callous toll companies are:

http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/23/local/me-56844

Here's an interesting Swiss system, bottom of the article:

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2004/08/toll_roads_and_.html

More:

http://salcostello.blogspot.com/2008/01/study-toll-roads-divert-traffic.html

http://cdn.publicinterestnetwork.org/assets/4b143c066a84d7144e0fa68cc4ee3bae/p3-fact-sheet-8-09.pdf

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

EI_Flyboy wrote: »

Source: http://tomvanderbilt.com/traffic/
I think it's pretty obvious that increasing traffic volume on a road is going to lead to a higher accident rate along it.

Of course it's obvious but you still don't seem to get the point. The motorway reduces volumes on the minor roads thus leaving them safer. If there was no motorway the old roads would be back to the chaos we put up with for decades. Do you rememebr when a run to the Airport took 1.5 hours? Probably not. If people choose to take the minor roads then that is their choice - the road is still an awful lot more quite than pre-motorway.
The motorway has reduced accidents and speeded journies. If the price of that is a toll then I am certainly willing to pay it.

That comment about "hidden blood tax" is beneath you, comical, and so off the wall as to be astounding that anybody could think that way. :P

Scotty #

Srameen you are correct. The statistics that flyboy speaks of (and has linked to) refer to where tolls have been added to existing roads, where there was no toll to begin with. This is completely different to the scenario in Ireland.

I also remember several people being killed in Julianstown over the years. How many have been killed there in the 10 years after the motorway opened compared to the 10 years before I wonder?

EI_Flyboy

Ya know, I enjoy a bit of black comedy as much as anybody else, I like the Cohen Brothers and even appreciate the odd Quentin Tarantino movie but when it's up close and personal, I don't find accidents or death very funny. There are other ways of raising the cash to build motorays that don't involve throwing a bone to builders/developers so they can shaft us indefinitely. Here's another comical yet true traffic fact for you, the more corrupt a country's government, the more traffic accidents there are. Hilarious, huh?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Who was laughing at accidents? I know I was laughing at your naivety. And just for clarity, have we dropped the accident causing tolls now in favour of the corrupt buliders? Honestly. Things may not be perfect in this world but it's a sad day when everything, or everybody, is thought to be corrupt.

That said, I have better things to do than argue over such nonsense. Carry on with the conspiracy theories etc. Life's too short for such nonsense. Do you even drive?????

EI_Flyboy

Scotty # wrote: »

Srameen you are correct. The statistics that flyboy speaks of (and has linked to) refer to where tolls have been added to existing roads, where there was no toll to begin with. This is completely different to the scenario in Ireland.

I also remember several people being killed in Julianstown over the years. How many have been killed there in the 10 years after the motorway opened compared to the 10 years before I wonder?

Wikipedia:

The R132 was until recently the main Dublin to Belfast road and it runs through the centre of Julianstown. Despite the completion of the M1 motorway the volume of traffic on the R132 has continued to increase. Traffic lights have recently been installed in the village.

Julianstown has chronic levels of traffic. More than 22,000 vehicles per day go through the village. At peak times there are aver 1750 vehicles per hour, and in the morning rush hour traffic levels exceed those on the M1 motorway which Meath County Council maintains is a bypass for Julianstown. Indeed traffic in Julianstown is at two thirds the motorway level. The local authority has only recently installed traffic lights, which help greatly whilst crossing the busy road.

http://www.drogheda-independent.ie/news/lsquoreduce-toll-price-to-keep-trucks-out-of-julianstownrsquo-753914.html

If there has been a drop in accidents at Julianstown, it's not because of the toll.