Establishing your FTP

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

What do people recommend for best/accurate results for establishing your FTP a 20,30,45 or 60 minute test? How hard do you go whilst testing, easy enough to last the test duration but hard enough to be gripping the bars for dear life towards the end before you fall off:)

Lumen

I have followed the test protocol described in "Training and Racing with a Powermeter".

This involves (from memory) a structured warm up, five minutes flat out (leg emptier), a few minutes of recovery then 20 minutes of maximum steady state effort, at the end of which you should be wishing for the soft embrace of death.

Raam

The one I did was a warm up at 100 watts for about 10 minutes. Then start at 200 watts for 2 minutes, take a 30 second break then jump by 20 watts and repeat till death.

shotgunmcos

What do people recommend for best/accurate results for establishing your FTP a 20,30,45 or 60 minute test? How hard do you go whilst testing, easy enough to last the test duration but hard enough to be gripping the bars for dear life towards the end before you fall off:)

JB you probably know what your turbo range is over all the miles on it for the IM. You can do a T20 and multiply your avg watts by 95% or go mad and do the whole hog T60. I did this once and it aint fun!

Warm up for 10 mins including 6*30 sec bursts at your target wattage or 2 mins hard, then 5 mins easy

Then 20 mins at your best sustainable power. Just go off at a good hard rate that is right on the threshold (your run -10bpm if you know that). It will feel solid but comfortable for a few minutes and start to bite around half way. If you have the gas build from 5 minutes out every minute to empty the tank.

I'd advise putting a towel over the data and just go for 20 mins on feel.

You will have avg power and HR benchmarks to work from at least.

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

The one I did was a warm up at 100 watts for about 10 minutes. Then start at 200 watts for 2 minutes, take a 30 second break then jump by 20 watts and repeat till death.

That's a ramp test. Did you have blood lactate measured?

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

That's a ramp test. Did you have blood lactate measured?

I did. And plenty of other stuff too.

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

I did. And plenty of other stuff too.

Right, but that's way overkill for FTP measurement, and AFAIK you can only crudely estimate FTP from a ramp test without the bloods.

If all you have is a power meter, a steady state test is necessary (happy to be corrected).

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Ok will look at doing the 20 minutes FTP test next week. There seems to be mixed opinions online with some suggesting 60 minutes is the most accurate and others like suggested on here doing the 20 minute test.
Looking back at previous training data over the year on the turbo i have never done one of these tests but similar duration/effort would have me around 270 watts which would have my FTP at 266 watts using the 95% rule and my aerobic range around 143-194 using this calculator.
Looking forward to embracing training by power for next season!!

Lumen

Omari Loud Foxhound wrote: »

Ok will look at doing the 20 minutes FTP test next week. There seems to be mixed opinions online with some suggesting 60 minutes is the most accurate and others like suggested on here doing the 20 minute test.

Since FTP is by definition 60 minute power, a 60 minute test will necessarily be more accurate.

The purpose of the shorter test is to allow shorter recovery time, especially when testing frequently. And because it hurts less.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Lumen wrote: »

Since FTP is by definition 60 minute power, a 60 minute test will necessarily be more accurate.

The purpose of the shorter test is to allow shorter recovery time, especially when testing frequently. And because it hurts less.

So given its near end of season for me the 60 minute session could be done as recovery would not be an issue and future testing could use the 20 minute test.
Does the same warm up apply for the 60 minute test and I assume then you do not apply the 95% rule? Should you test every 4 weeks or so?

Nwm2

Omari Loud Foxhound wrote: »

What do people recommend for best/accurate results for establishing your FTP a 20,30,45 or 60 minute test? How hard do you go whilst testing, easy enough to last the test duration but hard enough to be gripping the bars for dear life towards the end before you fall off:)

I have done it several ways (all variants of a CP20 test however) - on the turbo, as a test outdoors, and from a weekly 15km TT (taking about 23 mins - hey, it ain't flat ok?).

I prefer the TT method, as it guarantees I'm going all out. I try to get a decent warm up, including some greater than race pace intervals, but I don't follow the TARWAPM protocol with the all-out intervals.

Naturally, since I normally use the PM for pacing during the TT, on the occasions that I am testing I either have to hide it or say to myself I'm trying to average 320W rather than 310W say.

I'm perfectly willing to accept the inaccuracies of the 20 min test in order to avoid a repeated 60 min one done under test (not race) conditions! If I had a local 40k TT that would be ideal. I do suspect my ability to keep to my FTP for the hour as I've never actually done it - I'm normally doing 40k after staggering out of the water after a 1500m swim and even then I'm only aiming for 85-95% FTP.

PS Don't grip on the bars for dear life, relax your arms in order to let them help clear the lactic acid. Or so the theory goes anyway.

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

Right, but that's way overkill for FTP measurement, and AFAIK you can only crudely estimate FTP from a ramp test without the bloods.

If all you have is a power meter, a steady state test is necessary (happy to be corrected).

Ah OK. I just let the man in the lab do his thing.

Nwm2

Omari Loud Foxhound wrote: »

So given its near end of season for me the 60 minute session could be done as recovery would not be an issue and future testing could use the 20 minute test.
Does the same warm up apply for the 60 minute test and I assume then you do not apply the 95% rule? Should you test every 4 weeks or so?

To me the main reason for the 20 min test is that doing a 60 min all out session purely for test purposes would be a freakin nightmare, and I'll always give more in a competitive situation.

Also, there is a well known effect where your power on the turbo is less than outdoors. Might be due to cooling, so make sure you have a big fan or two. People will say the effect SHOULDN'T exist, but enough people report it that we can be sure it does. Might be a few percent difference.

As to how often to test - kind of depends what training you are doing. Are you working to build FTP or in base building? What training program will you follow - retesting should be built in. I would guess that every six weeks during an FTP-build phase is what I have seen people do.

You say you are at end of season - sure it would be interesting to get a test result now, but mainly it depends what your next few months looks like. The key result will be when you start serious training again - ie trying to get your FTP up. Your FTP will probably drop between now and then.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Nwm2 wrote: »

To me the main reason for the 20 min test is that doing a 60 min all out session purely for test purposes would be a freakin nightmare, and I'll always give more in a competitive situation.

Also, there is a well known effect where your power on the turbo is less than outdoors. Might be due to cooling, so make sure you have a big fan or two. People will say the effect SHOULDN'T exist, but enough people report it that we can be sure it does. Might be a few percent difference.

As to how often to test - kind of depends what training you are doing. Are you working to build FTP or in base building? What training program will you follow - retesting should be built in. I would guess that every six weeks during an FTP-build phase is what I have seen people do.

You say you are at end of season - sure it would be interesting to get a test result now, but mainly it depends what your next few months looks like. The key result will be when you start serious training again - ie trying to get your FTP up. Your FTP will probably drop between now and then.

Not sure what the training programme looks like at the moment as i have to agree one with my coach. I will be IM training so will be looking to build on my FTP right through the training programme as i already have a solid base to work off. By improving my FTP it will increase my ability to hold a higher aerobic pace for the long bike.
I will be taking a short break before i kick into my next training programme so i would imagine testing before jumping into the next batch of training so the FTP should not drop that much.
Interesting point on the turbo vs pm differences. I will have a PM in the next few weeks so i will be able to see what the % difference is between the turbo and PM and factor that into testing indoors on the turbo.

shotgunmcos

Nwm2 wrote: »

I have done it several ways (all variants of a CP20 test however) - on the turbo, as a test outdoors, and from a weekly 15km TT (taking about 23 mins - hey, it ain't flat ok?).
.

Is that the one in Shannon? If so 23 aint too shabby at all

Nwm2

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Is that the one in Shannon? If so 23 aint too shabby at all

23ish. Let's just say I'm not in your league Shotgun!

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

I think Lumen captured the feeling after one of these tests:)
"at the end of which you should be wishing for the soft embrace of death".

I completed a 20 minute test last night and it was bloody tough, kudos to those who regularly do the 60 minute test:eek: Numbers dissapointing but you have to start somewhere, 276 watts averaged so my FTP is 262.

Nwm2

Omari Loud Foxhound wrote: »

I think Lumen captured the feeling after one of these tests:)
"at the end of which you should be wishing for the soft embrace of death".

I completed a 20 minute test last night and it was bloody tough, kudos to those who regularly do the 60 minute test:eek: Numbers dissapointing but you have to start somewhere, 276 watts averaged so my FTP is 262.

Was that indoors? On a powertap? (Make sure you calibrate/zero it first).

276 could well be very good - how long have you been cycling & training seriously?

Are you road racing or time trialling/triathloning?

If the former, it is probably watts/kg that is important due to climbing and accelerating. Here is a chart (I think from TARWAPM book originally):

Lumen

I wouldn't put too much faith in that chart. It has Cat 3 at about 4W/kg for 5 minutes.

I reckon in Irish A4 races you need to be putting out around 4.5W/kg on a 5 minute climb just to avoid getting dropped, and closer to 5W/kg to be doing damage at the front.

Nwm2

Lumen wrote: »

I wouldn't put too much faith in that chart. It has Cat 3 at about 4W/kg for 5 minutes.

I reckon in Irish A4 races you need to be putting out around 4.5W/kg on a 5 minute climb just to avoid getting dropped, and closer to 5W/kg to be doing damage at the front.

I refuse to accept that I am not at the low end of Cat 2!! I am ignoring all other signals and just going by the chart.

BTW, it's easier to put out the watts when going uphill isn't it? Climbing watts/kg and flat watts/kg tend to be different.

Beasty

Nwm2 wrote: »

I refuse to accept that I am not at the low end of Cat 2!! I am ignoring all other signals and just going by the chart.

BTW, it's easier to put out the watts when going uphill isn't it? Climbing watts/kg and flat watts/kg tend to be different.

It's easier to push out high watts consistently on an incline - the problem with a decline is you tend to spin out without hitting your potential wattage

However flat w/kg are exactly the same as climbing w/kg - it's just that when climbing w/kg is more relevant than on the flat when absolute power counts for more

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Nwm2 wrote: »

Was that indoors? On a powertap? (Make sure you calibrate/zero it first).

276 could well be very good - how long have you been cycling & training seriously?

Are you road racing or time trialling/triathloning?

If the former, it is probably watts/kg that is important due to climbing and accelerating. Here is a chart (I think from TARWAPM book originally):

This was done on a turbo and i will re test when my power meter arrives in a few weeks. Claibrated to zero and test done on Tacx Fortius VR. Cannot solely rely on these numbers but for the purposes on turbo training until i get the PM it will do the job.
Background is triathlon (IM distance) and only cycling a year. My watts/kg reading was 4.05.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Beasty wrote: »

It's easier to push out high watts consistently on an incline - the problem with a decline is you tend to spin out without hitting your potential wattage

However flat w/kg are exactly the same as climbing w/kg - it's just that when climbing w/kg is more relevant than on the flat when absolute power counts for more

Yeah much easier to put out higher wattage on inclines. For the purposes of my test and ongoing tests the slope setting is set to zero.