German Shephard being phased out as police dogs . . . . in Germany!!!

Cherry Blossom

The GSD is being slowly replaced by 'healthier, more robust breeds'. If that isn't a wake up call that drastic action needs to be taken to undo the damage that has been done to the breed then I don't know what is!

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20110822-37117.html

Bullseye1

This doesn't make sense. There are breeders of working GSDs which don't have the distorted front to back splay.

Cherry Blossom

Of course there are, clearly not enough of them though by the looks of it.

mymo

That is it exactly, maybe 100 dogs will be chosen to train and by the time they are grown and health tested, temperament tested and finally trained, they may only get one or two dogs that are good enough.
If the working strain dogs are only being bred by a few breeders, firstly the numbers available are limited and secondly the gene pool will be smaller so more chance of issues with health.
Sadly I think the GSD is never going to be the dog it was meant to be again, all due to this trend for sloped back not fit for purpose dogs.
I remember seeing UK police dogs come to my school as a child, they leapt over 6ft fences with ease, ran and climbed at amazing speed. I haven't seen a good strong GSD capable of that in years.

Carol555

Well said mymo and Adrenalinjukie. It's very sad news for GSD and the few people breeding working dogs without exaggerated angulation. It also shows that there is no improvement despite Kennel Club’s attempts to influence breeders.

Bullseye1

Are working standards allowed into these dog events? If so the judges should award them best in breed. It's the only way to change the standard.

Chris_Heilong

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Are working standards allowed into these dog events? If so the judges should award them best in breed. It's the only way to change the standard.

you are right, intead of the Dog shows being glorified Fashion shows it should be all about the ability of what the dog was bred for, its just as important as conformaton and they need trials to determine this.

Alun

I don't know whether they still use them, but I remember seeing Airedales being used as police dogs in Germany when I lived there.

**Vai**

Bad form, we might be ruining one of the best breeds we have. Bout time people stopped breeding those horrid looking mutant GSDs. Mine has a flat back and shes better looking than any showdog GSD Ive seen.

Whispered

Opening a can of worms here - but you know they way people (myself included) always push contacting the relevant breed club etc for a breeder. Would this be adding to the problem?

Where would you say the best place to get a healthy, strong, elegant looking gsd would be now?

**Vai**

Whispered wrote: »

Opening a can of worms here - but you know they way people (myself included) always push contacting the relevant breed club etc for a breeder. Would this be adding to the problem?

Could be Whispered, depends on the quality of the breeders and their dogs I suppose. The go-to response for people looking for pedigreee dogs is, contact the kennel club, maybe there is a better way. Maybe the kennel clubs dont have the same ideas as us about how a GSD should look. I dont know myself but ideas would be appreciated.

Whispered wrote: »

Where would you say the best place to get a healthy, strong, elegant looking gsd would be now?

I got mine from an unwanted litter, I was very lucky I realise. Both her parents are healthy, strong, elegant, flat back GSDs.


I dont get the part in that article about how GSDs are not useful for sniffer dog duties. That has to be wrong surely? Ive seen GSDs do tracking work in the past.

Could well be time to start going the way of the Old English bulldog and mixing the gene pool up a bit with the Malinois or similar breed.

Whispered

I remember hearing somewhere that greyhounds are among the healthiest PB dogs you can get, because they were bred and bred for a purpose rather than looks. I'm sure there are other PBs the same. The poor GSD's seem to be among those who have suffered the most. Such gorgeous dogs too.

At one stage didn't they begin mixing pointer with dalmatians to try breed out the deafness problem too? The fact it has been done, more than once is a good sign.

mymo

The question is, do they try to correct a problem by breeding in another breed, or do they stick with the working lines and go from there.
Personally I'd like to see them pick the working strain and the very best of the show strain (least sloped backed) and try to strengthen the breed they have, but I think it may be too late for that. Belgian sheppard or similar may have to be introduced.
Not to get too off topic but there is the same problem in a few breeds now and I do wonder about contacting the IKC for certain breeds.

Shammy

Something like

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=482525

Bullseye1

Everything except that back legs looks beautiful. Where did the obsession with this profile begin?

lrushe

I would love to see working titles on a dogs papers aswell as confirmation before breeding, even a Chihuahua can compete in agility for example so there is no excuse.
My last German Shephard came from a long line of champions, every dog in her lineage had a mix of confimation and obedience, tracking and agility titles. Daisy died at 13 of old age, she was fit and healthy for most of her life ( she slowed down alot towards the end), I put that down to her good breeding. While confirmation has it's place in a dogs make up, it can't be the be all and end all, health must come first imo.

Shammy

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Everything except that back legs looks beautiful. Where did the obsession with this profile begin?

Obession with what profile

Bullseye1

The shorter back legs?

Shammy

Bullseye1 wrote: »

The shorter back legs?

So i've shown you a dog that is full of health , va1 at last years world sieger , has also working lines in his pedigree , but you make a comment on how he looks ?

Bullseye1

I grew up with German Shepards looking like this.

Cherry Blossom

Whispered wrote: »

Opening a can of worms here - but you know they way people (myself included) always push contacting the relevant breed club etc for a breeder. Would this be adding to the problem?

I do believe it would.

Whispered wrote: »

Where would you say the best place to get a healthy, strong, elegant looking gsd would be now?

There have been a few threads started by people looking for good working strain GSD's and there has been a distinct lack of replies. I'm not sure if there are specific trials for them other than the Schutzhund dogs and these have more bred into them than just a healthy skeleton, so basicly these are a lot of GSD for the ordinary person to handle. They seem stuck between a rock and a hard place which I find very sad I certainly wouldn't be recommending that the two types be bred together which could possible ruin both strains (which is likely how they ended up in such a state) so I do think bringing in some 'distant relative' blood is the only answer.

In all honesty, they are an impressive dog but I would never own one personally and for the same reasons. There are much healthier breeds out there and it may be much easier to breed the traits that are wanted into these than to breed the problems out of the GSD. If I was ever tempted, a cross from an accidental litter/rescue/pound is the way I would be more inclined to go.

Bullseye1

Shammy wrote: »

So i've shown you a dog that is full of health , va1 at last years world sieger , has also working lines in his pedigree , but you make a comment on how he looks ?

They didn't always look like that though. Isn't looks a major reason people breed dogs for showing? I don't get your point.

lrushe

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Everything except that back legs looks beautiful. Where did the obsession with this profile begin?

The German Shephard is supposed to have an effortless gait which allows it to work tirelessly for hours on end. To achieve this gait there was a need for a slightly sloped back (few dogs have a completely straight back), when the breed was discovered by Americans after World War 2 they were taken from a serious working dog to a show dog. They changed the breeds name to Alsatian and began to over exaggerate it's profile as they thought it looked better leading to the extreme sloping we see today.

Shammy

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I grew up with German Shepards looking like this.

Times change , through human intervention the gsd's build has changed , like it or not its the way its going .
To me looks arent important , the most important thing is that the dog is healthy and has the gs temperment .

Shammy

Bullseye1 wrote: »

They didn't always look like that though. Isn't looks a major reason people breed dogs for showing? I don't get your point.

You dont get my point because you are of the belief that all show dogs cant work . You would be incorrect to think that.

Bullseye1

Absolutely. As long as there is a pure working strain like the picture I posted both camps of the argument will be happy. But it is getting harder to find a working line breeder producing the dog in my picture.

Bullseye1

Shammy wrote: »

You dont get my point because you are of the belief that all show dogs cant work . You would be incorrect to think that.

I don't think that. I'm sure they can work but the original breed could work also.

lrushe

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

I'm not sure if there are specific trials for them other than the Schutzhund dogs and these have more bred into them than just a healthy skeleton, so basicly these are a lot of GSD for the ordinary person to handle. They seem stuck between a rock and a hard place which I find very sad

Schutzhund GSD's are alot of dog for the average person but I don't believe this to be a bad thing, I hate to see breeds like this 'dumbed down' so people can own them, not every breed is for everyone. Imo if you're looking for a dog who can be everyone's friend get a Golden Retriever don't water down an existing breed, just my 2 cents worth.

Shammy

lrushe wrote: »

Schutzhund GSD's are alot of dog for the average person but I don't believe this to be a bad thing, I hate to see breeds like this 'dumbed down' so people can own them, not every breed is for everyone. Imo if you're looking for a dog who can be everyone's friend get a Golden Retriever don't water down an existing breed, just my 2 cents worth.

One of the reasons i moved away from the working strain . I felt that the dogs were becoming too highly strung , over agressive or over shy which is not the temperment of the gsd .

lrushe

Shammy wrote: »

One of the reasons i moved away from the working strain . I felt that the dogs were becoming too highly strung , over agressive or over shy which is not the temperment of the gsd .

There is a world of difference between a highly strung or over agressive temperament and a 'wait and see', self assured one. The correct temperament for a German Shephard is not one that is instantly everyone's friend like a 6 month old pup but rather one who will watch a situation, calmly assess it and if ok'd by it's handler then approach. To create a goofy, waggy-tailed version of this breed is unfair to the breed imo and it is part of the reason this breed was so overly bred and changed, people wanted the breed but they wanted their version of the breed instead of taking it as it was supposed to be.

Cherry Blossom

lrushe wrote: »

Schutzhund GSD's are alot of dog for the average person but I don't believe this to be a bad thing, I hate to see breeds like this 'dumbed down' so people can own them, not every breed is for everyone.

Yes but surely this is another result of evolution of the breed, surely a 'shepherd' was originally bred as a herding dog, to be strongly loyal yet capable of working independently without the sharpness of the schutzhund lines, there are other breeds that were developed for that purpose. I appreciate that this is the reason for their suitability for police work in the first place, but to me what a GSD temperament should be, would closely resemble that of the border collie.

I suppose their adaptability contributes to what got them in trouble in the first place. How can a dog be fit for purpose if it's purpose keeps changing or opinions of what that purpose is are so divided?