German Shephard being phased out as police dogs . . . . in Germany!!!

Cherry Blossom

Sorry lrushe, I cross-posted with you there! . I certainly got the idea also that the Schutzhund GSDs were highly driven and somewhat highly-strung, perhaps wrongly so!

lrushe

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Yes but surely this is another result of evolution of the breed, surely a 'shepherd' was originally bred as a herding dog, to be strongly loyal yet capable of working independently without the sharpness of the schutzhund lines, there are other breeds that were developed for that purpose.

It depends on you interpretation of 'sharp'. If you are used to soppy dogs who are everyone's best friend then a GSD with what I would call a true temperament might appear sharp, however sharp should never be mistaken for aggression or aggressive tendancies. They may be a bit more stand offish and not falling all over you to be your friend, they show alot more independance and are calm and self assured.
The Boarder Collie was bred to be a herding dog only, GSD had the job of herding and guarding so they needed to be a bit more dog than a Boarder Collie.

ETA: Sorry AJ just saw your follow up post!

Shammy

lrushe wrote: »

There is a world of difference between a highly strung or over agressive temperament and a 'wait and see', self assured one. The correct temperament for a German Shephard is not one that is instantly everyone's friend like a 6 month old pup but rather one who will watch a situation, calmly assess it and if ok'd by it's handler then approach. To create a goofy, waggy-tailed version of this breed is unfair to the breed imo and it is part of the reason this breed was so overly bred and changed, people wanted the breed but they wanted their version of the breed instead of taking it as it was supposed to be.

To create an over-agressive / over -shy , way too highly strung gsd is also unfair to the breed.
You are right , the correct temperament is aloofness with strangers .

Dyr

lrushe wrote: »

The German Shephard is supposed to have an effortless gait which allows it to work tirelessly for hours on end. To achieve this gait there was a need for a slightly sloped back (few dogs have a completely straight back), when the breed was discovered by Americans after World War 2 they were taken from a serious working dog to a show dog. They changed the breeds name to Alsatian and began to over exaggerate it's profile as they thought it looked better leading to the extreme sloping we see today.

The name Alsatian came after world war 1 from the british. The push for frog dogs came from breeders all over the place. Don't go blaming this debacle on the yanks

caseyann

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I grew up with German Shepards looking like this.

Mine were the same aswell.The ones i have now are also like that.


Its not that big here is it?

lrushe

Bambi wrote: »

The name Alsatian came after world war 1 from the british. The push for frog dogs came from breeders all over the place. Don't go blaming this debacle on the yanks

Britian first recognised the breed as an Alsatian they didn't give the breed the name.

Shammy

Bambi wrote: »

The name Alsatian came after world war 1 from the british. The push for frog dogs came from breeders all over the place. Don't go blaming this debacle on the yanks

It was the akc that started the over angulation.

lrushe wrote: »

Britian first recognised the breed as an Alsatian they didn't give the breed the name.

I nearly sure they did as there was bad feeling they changed the name to alsatian wolf dog .

lrushe

Shammy wrote: »

I nearly sure they did as there was bad feeling they changed the name to alsatian wolf dog .

My understanding of the name came when the breed was discovered by American soldiers in an area boarding France and Germany called Alasce. But you are correct Britian did favour the name Alsatian as they didn't like anything associated with Germany.

Shammy

lrushe wrote: »

My understanding of the name came when the breed was discovered by American soldiers in an area boarding France and Germany called Alasce. But you are correct Britian did favour the name Alsatian as they didn't like anything associated with Germany.

I heard that tale too, but the gsd was introduced to the States in 1907

lrushe

Shammy wrote: »

I heard that tale too, but the gsd was introduced to the States in 1907

True, I can only presume the soliders either didn't recognied the breed as it didn't really become a popular breed until around 1913 and thought they'd found a new breed or maybe like the British tried to distance the breed from it's country of origin so brought back a 'new' breed called the Alsatian.

Whispered

What an interesting thread!

The effortless gait is interesting, I've never heard of the lower legs meaning they can work longer thing. So if Harley has a slightly higher bum than his middle back, in line with his shoulders, does that mean he might tire more easily? It's pronounced enough that my sister refers to it as his Shakira bum.

Oranage2

I blame the show rings. It makes me sick to see people suggest gettin dogs from them. They recommend altering dogs crop ears and docking tails for cosmetic reasons. Sure the dog might look pretty but can't even run around for an hour. Same goes for the gsd, the slop back may be standard but no way practical

Cherry Blossom

Oranage2 wrote: »

I blame the show rings. It makes me sick to see people suggest gettin dogs from them. They recommend altering dogs crop ears and docking tails for cosmetic reasons. Sure the dog might look pretty but can't even run around for an hour. Same goes for the gsd, the slop back may be standard but no way practical

Ear cropping is illegal in this country and practically every other country as well. Never in my life have I seen a GSD with a docked tail. If you are going to make a statement like:

I blame the show rings. It makes me sick to see people suggest gettin dogs from them

at least back it up with actual facts instead of something you just made up.

lrushe

Whispered wrote: »

The effortless gait is interesting, I've never heard of the lower legs meaning they can work longer thing. So if Harley has a slightly higher bum than his middle back, in line with his shoulders, does that mean he might tire more easily? It's pronounced enough that my sister refers to it as his Shakira bum.

The idea is that with the slight slope the dog can get its legs better under its body giving it a more powerful take off with each stride with less effort hence using less energy and aiding the dog in working for longer.
It would depend on what Harley was doing, in a flat out run like what a greyhound would do a slight slope would be a disadvantage but with stop, start, constant work like what a herding dog would do, developers of the breeder found the slight slope to be an advantage.

Oranage2

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Oranage2 wrote: »

I blame the show rings. It makes me sick to see people suggest gettin dogs from them. They recommend altering dogs crop ears and docking tails for cosmetic reasons. Sure the dog might look pretty but can't even run around for an hour. Same goes for the gsd, the slop back may be standard but no way practical

Ear cropping is illegal in this country and practically every other country as well. Never in my life have I seen a GSD with a docked tail. If you are going to make a statement like:

I blame the show rings. It makes me sick to see people suggest gettin dogs from them

at least back it up with actual facts instead of something you just made up.

Firstly practically every country? Well that's a lie, in Europe maybe but that's hardly every country now. Also i wasn't just talkin about docking and cropping gsd, and its a not so quiet secret that some breeds do better in show rings while the non ones won't even get a look in. Also some dogs that are show quality just aren't practical for the breed.

Shammy

Oranage2 wrote: »

Firstly practically every country? Well that's a lie, in Europe maybe but that's hardly every country now. Also i wasn't just talkin about docking and cropping gsd, and its a not so quiet secret that some breeds do better in show rings while the non ones won't even get a look in. Also some dogs that are show quality just aren't practical for the breed.

The same could be said about some working dogs , hell the same could be said for every type of dog.

andreac

My dog is docked and i show him and he is well able to run around for more than an hour so please dont generalise with those type of statements.
Cropping is illegal in this country and no doubt the docking ban will be brought in soon, its illegal in the UK alright but still legal in Ireland to dock, although you wont find many, if any vets that will do it at the moment.

There are no cropped dogs to be allowed to be shown at any IKC run dog shows in Ireland and same applies to the UK.

Have you ever been to a proper dog show before or know people involved in dog showing? Im guessing not as a lot of the people i know involved in dog showing work their dogs so they are well able to do the job they were bred for.

Cherry Blossom

Oranage2 wrote: »

Also i wasn't just talkin about docking and cropping gsd, and its a not so quiet secret that some breeds do better in show rings while the non ones won't even get a look in. Also some dogs that are show quality just aren't practical for the breed.

Funny enough, the same laws apply to all breeds in regards to mutilation, this is a thread about GSD's not other breeds, and to be more exact, it's a thread about working GSDs, back on topic then so . . .

Bullseye1

lrushe wrote: »

The idea is that with the slight slope the dog can get its legs better under its body giving it a more powerful take off with each stride with less effort hence using less energy and aiding the dog in working for longer.
It would depend on what Harley was doing, in a flat out run like what a greyhound would do a slight slope would be a disadvantage but with stop, start, constant work like what a herding dog would do, developers of the breeder found the slight slope to be an advantage.

Interesting but I find this very strange. Why is the Border Collie considered the best herding dog if that is the case? Isn't it the case that the German Shepard is no longer just a herding dog but essentially an all-rounder. I am not disputing the theory behind the altered gate of the dog but IMO it has been done for aesthetics.

Nearly every breed has been man altered but that is not to say its been for the better.

Cherry Blossom

Have you never seen the back end of a working border collie, or seen one at work herding sheep? Because it's described exactly in the post you quoted.

<ETA>
From the border collie breed standard:

Hindquarters
Broad, muscular, in profile sloping gracefully to set on of tail. Thighs long, deep and muscular with well turned stifles and strong well let down hocks. From hock to ground, hindlegs well boned and parallel when viewed from rear.

Gait/Movement
Free, smooth and tireless, with minimum lift of feet, conveying impression of ability to move with great stealth and speed.

Source: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/130

Bullseye1

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Have you never seen the back end of a working border collie, or seen one at work herding sheep? Because it's described exactly in the post you quoted.

<ETA>
From the border collie breed standard:


Source: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/130

I've seen many BC's which do not have an exaggerated gait.

Cherry Blossom

Can you define what you mean by 'exaggerated gait', they are not supposed to have an exaggerated gait, the term 'minimum lift of feet' means the opposite. The term lrushe used was effortless gait not exaggerated, exaggerated was the word used to describe the profile of the GSD when the slope was taken too far.

For sake of comparison the GSD breed standard states:

Hindquarters
Overall strong, broad and well muscled, enabling effortless forward propulsion. Upper and lower thigh are approximately of equal length. Hind angulation sufficient if imaginary line dropped from point of buttocks cuts through lower thigh just in front of hock, continuing down slightly in front of hindfeet. Angulations corresponding approximately with front angulation, without over-angulation. Seen from rear, the hind legs are straight and parallel to each other. The hocks are strong and firm. The rear pasterns are vertical. Any tendency towards over-angulation of hindquarters, weak hocks, cow hocks or sickle hocks, is to be heavily penalised as this reduces firmness and endurance in movement.

Gait/Movement
Sequence of step follows diagonal pattern, moving foreleg and opposite hindleg forward simultaneously; hindfoot thrust forward to midpoint of body and having equally long reach with forefeet without any noticeable change in backline. Absolute soundness of movement essential.

Source: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/136

The GSD standard is much more detailed, there are too many fine points in it (imo). If it was stripped back a bit more in line with the BC standard there would be more room to manoeuvre and more emphasis could be put on health and less on aesthetics.

Yes I know they are still very different breeds but this comes back to fitness for purpose, (if you are of the opinion they should be first and foremost herding dogs of course).

Oranage2

andreac wrote: »

My dog is docked and i show him and he is well able to run around for more than an hour so please dont generalise with those type of statements.
Cropping is illegal in this country and no doubt the docking ban will be brought in soon, its illegal in the UK alright but still legal in Ireland to dock, although you wont find many, if any vets that will do it at the moment.

There are no cropped dogs to be allowed to be shown at any IKC run dog shows in Ireland and same applies to the UK.

Have you ever been to a proper dog show before or know people involved in dog showing? Im guessing not as a lot of the people i know involved in dog showing work their dogs so they are well able to do the job they were bred for.

your right i don't go to shows, id ratherwatch proper dogs running around fields then be at one of those Nazi dog genetics program.

Also is that why you docked your dogs tails because you work them.

Doubt it, you mutilated your dog so it looks 'pretty '. Might as well get his ears pierced and a tattoo

star-pants

Oranage2 wrote: »

your right i don't go to shows, id ratherwatch proper dogs running around fields then be at one of those Nazi dog genetics program.

Also is that why you docked your dogs tails because you work them.

Doubt it, you mutilated your dog so it looks 'pretty '. Might as well get his ears pierced and a tattoo

Oranage2 I suggest you either support your posts with facts / stop being so aggressive towards posters or you'll be given a break from the forum. It's perfectly fine to say you don't like cropping or docking etc. and have your opinion but there's no need to to attack the poster and not the post.

Again - to everyone - on topic/relevant posts please so that a civilised discussion can perhaps be had.
No need to respond to this post on thread - any issues - PM.
Anyone taking things off topic after this post will be red carded/1 day ban.

**Vai**

Shammy wrote: »

Something like

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=482525

I know its a champion or whatever but to me it looks disgusting. Theres nothing wrong with a SLIGHTLY sloping back but that just looks wrong. I'd rather have a mongrel than something like that.

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I grew up with German Shepards looking like this.

Thats what a GSD should look like.

Shammy

**Vai** wrote: »

I know its a champion or whatever but to me it looks disgusting. Theres nothing wrong with a SLIGHTLY sloping back but that just looks wrong. I'd rather have a mongrel than something like that.



Thats what a GSD should look like.

Funny because he has the correct gsd temperament , he has all the attributes of the gsd breed , but yet you would not have him because of the way he looks ......

**Vai**

Not so funny because to me that looks like a dog that has been overbred and has a much larger chance of having serious medical problems in later life. Attributes according to the kennel club, which Ive already said on here, I dont necessarily think they have the health of the breed in mind, just the looks. I have a GSD with a flat back who also has the GSD temperment and attributes of the breed. All the good points of that dog plus, no hip or back problems.

Please dont try making me out to be some kind of shallow dog owner who wouldnt own a dog because of looks. You could not be further from the truth. I wouldnt own a dog who looks like that because of the inevitable medical issues. I also wouldnt own it on the grounds that I think that is a mutation of the GSD breed. They didnt always look like that and what we have been discussing on here is how we would like to see them go back to 'normal'.

If a dog like that needed a home I would take it in but I certainly wouldnt breed it to carry on the mistakes that have been made. And I definitely wouldnt be paying thousands to own one of its offspring.

Shammy

**Vai** wrote: »

Not so funny because to me that looks like a dog that has been overbred and has a much larger chance of having serious medical problems in later life. Attributes according to the kennel club, which Ive already said on here, I dont necessarily think they have the health of the breed in mind, just the looks. I have a GSD with a flat back who also has the GSD temperment and attributes of the breed. All the good points of that dog plus, no hip or back problems.

Please dont try making me out to be some kind of shallow dog owner who wouldnt own a dog because of looks. You could not be further from the truth. I wouldnt own a dog who looks like that because of the inevitable medical issues. I also wouldnt own it on the grounds that I think that is a mutation of the GSD breed. They didnt always look like that and what we have been discussing on here is how we would like to see them go back to 'normal'.

If a dog like that needed a home I would take it in but I certainly wouldnt breed it to carry on the mistakes that have been made. And I definitely wouldnt be paying thousands to own one of its offspring.

He has grade a hips and elbows , you talk about going back to normal , can you define normal because the gsd in the pic that you posted wouldnt be orginal either .
We can disscuss this until the cows come home but i dont think we'll get anywhere.

**Vai**

Normal to me is something along the lines of that second picture. As has been mentioned before, the kind of GSD that we all grew up seeing. I never mentioned original, that would involve wolves. All Im saying is I would prefer a dog that looks like a normal dog, not something that has been bred for the slope in its back (among other attributes obviously).

The whole point of this thread is to discuss. Im not looking for a solution from you. Its just a matter of opinion. I would like to see the GSD going back to what it used to look like. To me that would be the preference.

EDIT: BTW I didnt post that pic of the GSD, I just quoted it.

Shammy

**Vai** wrote: »

Normal to me is something along the lines of that second picture. As has been mentioned before, the kind of GSD that we all grew up seeing

Just because its normal to you does not mean its right

**Vai** wrote: »

. I never mentioned original, that would involve wolves. All Im saying is I would prefer a dog that looks like a normal dog, not something that has been bred for the slope in its back (among other attributes obviously).

No it wouldnt involve wolves .

[QUOTE=**Vai**;74058843
The whole point of this thread is to discuss. Im not looking for a solution from you. Its just a matter of opinion. I would like to see the GSD going back to what it used to look like. To me that would be the preference.
.[/QUOTE]


Your contradicting yourself there.

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

The GSD is being slowly replaced by 'healthier, more robust breeds'. If that isn't a wake up call that drastic action needs to be taken to undo the damage that has been done to the breed then I don't know what is!

http://www.thelocal.de/society/20110822-37117.html

The Malinois is a superb working dog and is out performing the working german shepherds both here and abroad . there are quotes there that i do not agree with as i think the gsd is great at tracking .

I dont think the gsd can ever be as good as it was , there are too many types from the show dog , to the larger straight back and to the working strain.