German Shephard being phased out as police dogs . . . . in Germany!!!

**Vai**

Wheres the contradiction??

From what Ive seen, the type of dog you posted is in the minority, luckily. Any GSDs Ive seen around my area are fine looking examples of the breed and they do not look like the show dogs. To me, the dog you posted looks like a parody of a GSD. I dont have any problem with people who show dogs but in my opinion the GSD has been taken too far. You seem to be taking offence to anyone who doesnt agree with your view on this so I think Ill just leave it there.

lrushe

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Hindquarters
Hind angulation sufficient if imaginary line dropped from point of buttocks cuts through lower thigh just in front of hock, continuing down slightly in front of hindfeet. Angulations corresponding approximately with front angulation, without over-angulation. Seen from rear, the hind legs are straight and parallel to each other. The hocks are strong and firm. The rear pasterns are vertical.

Just to point out also that the above description is how the dog should look in a stacked position standing still. As soon as the dog is asked to move it should gather up, the back should only have the slight slope needed to achieve that fluid forward motion.

tonsiltickler

I work in orthopedics so I think i can add a different perspective to this argument. Consider the straight back GSD's and imagine their bodies as horizontal beams. These horizontal beams are supported at either end by the front and hind legs. This beam will be in compression due to the body weight of the dog and will act downward through the legs. Since the front and hind legs are relatively vertical the compressional force downwards is in equilibrium.

Now consider the sloping back frog leg GSD's. At the hind legs the force due to the weight of the dog is still acting downwards. But the reactionary force from the hind legs is no longer vertically upwards, but at an angle. The force downwards works to push the legs further back. The sloping angle of the back will exaggerate this effect. As time goes on the degree of splay will get larger and larger.

Hip Scoring: If you test a dog at 1 yr old and get excellent scores that's fine, but the ball of the joint will move further and further away as the dog ages so hip scores at 1yr old mean nothing at say 5yrs old.

TLDR: From biomechanics pov the sloping back frog legs thing is a disaster.

lrushe

Vai, while I'm not familiar with the dog Shammy posted it is standing in the show position known as stacking, the dog with the more straight looking back is standing naturally. You would have to see both dogs move before making up your mind which was better

**Vai**

lrushe wrote: »

Vai, while I'm not familiar with the dog Shammy posted it is standing in the show position known as stacking, the dog with the more straight looking back is standing naturally. You would have to see both dogs move before making up your mind which was better

Yeah I realise the slope isnt actually that severe but in general the show dogs are quite slope backed and splay legged whereas any dogs Ive seen in real life dont have the same degree of slope.

Shammy

**Vai** wrote: »

Wheres the contradiction??

From what Ive seen, the type of dog you posted is in the minority, luckily. Any GSDs Ive seen around my area are fine looking examples of the breed and they do not look like the show dogs. To me, the dog you posted looks like a parody of a GSD. I dont have any problem with people who show dogs but in my opinion the GSD has been taken too far. You seem to be taking offence to anyone who doesnt agree with your view on this so I think Ill just leave it there.

The contradiction is in different colours.

My only concern is for the german shepherd , i dont take offence if people dont agree with my posts this is a forum after all and if we all agreed with each other then it would be a boring place .
What i do take offence is to looks , i dont care what a gsd looks like as long as it has all the right drives . Personally i dont like the straight backs (like in the pic) when looking for a pup before, i found the parents lacked drives .(i looked at maybe 5 litters) . The working line , imo in the last 10/15 years i think the dogs are becoming overly highly strung . I found a balance with a show dog.
If we were to talk about looks i'd like to go back to the east german/cech working line . Perfect size imo .

**Vai**

Yeah thats fine and all, you obviously work with them in some manner and you found the right drive for you in a show dog. I dont believe that has anything to do with the type of dog however, I think its an individual thing. Im sure there are plenty of show dogs who you would consider highly strung too. As I said, my preference is for the flat back GSD, the kind Ive seen around for years and happily, continue to see around. If we're only talking about looks then I'd go for a wolf

I still dont get where you think Im contradicting myself. I said Im not looking for a solution from you and then said I'd like to see them go back to what they used to look like. The 2 points have nothing to do with each other.

Shammy

**Vai** wrote: »

Yeah thats fine and all, you obviously work with them in some manner and you found the right drive for you in a show dog. I dont believe that has anything to do with the type of dog however, I think its an individual thing. Im sure there are plenty of show dogs who you would consider highly strung too. As I said, my preference is for the flat back GSD, the kind Ive seen around for years and happily, continue to see around. If we're only talking about looks then I'd go for a wolf

I still dont get where you think Im contradicting myself. I said Im not looking for a solution from you and then said I'd like to see them go back to what they used to look like. The 2 points have nothing to do with each other.

No i'm afraid not (in regards to the bold bit) my concern for show gsds is that the emphasis is too much on looks and the temperament is being bred out of them .But thats just with some breeders

**Vai**

Well (shock horror) I think thats something we definitely agree on. Its not that I care about the looks of the dog, its that Im concerned about the underlying health issues etc when I see a dog like the one you used as an example. Most people will be more concerned about the hips and condition of the spine than what the dogs drive is like. In the end, unless you are working with them, drive just isnt as important as health.

Bullseye1

Can you explain how it is not right?

Shammy wrote: »

Just because its normal to you does not mean its right



No it wouldnt involve wolves .




Your contradicting yourself there.





The Malinois is a superb working dog and is out performing the working german shepherds both here and abroad . there are quotes there that i do not agree with as i think the gsd is great at tracking .

I dont think the gsd can ever be as good as it was , there are too many types from the show dog , to the larger straight back and to the working strain.

boomerang

Just throwing this into the conversation. It generated a good bit of debate as a lot of viewers felt the two videos did not offer a fair comparison of show v working GSDs.

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2011/08/m-is-for.html

Shammy

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Can you explain how it is not right?

To quote the founder of the breed
Von Stephanitz had become alarmed at the trend in the breed toward oversized square dogs. Other problems included lack of steady temperament and faults of dentition.

Bullseye1

As by no means am I an expert on the breed just someone who grew up with the "square" type, is it the case that the original GSD looked like the show dogs of today, was then "squared off" and is now reverting back to it's original shape?

Shammy

Bullseye1 wrote: »

As by no means am I an expert on the breed just someone who grew up with the "square" type, is it the case that the original GSD looked like the show dogs of today, was then "squared off" and is now reverting back to it's original shape?

No its not reverting back to its orginal state. I am no expert on the breed , i just know bits and pieces .
It was in 1925 that Von Stephanitz was worried about the larger squarer type of gsd that was coming about so he selected a different type of dog Klodo von Boxberg to be the winner of that years sieger , this dog was of lower station, deeper and longer in body, short in loin and with a far-reaching gait . He was sold to the States the same year , he is thought to be largely responsible for the faults which are there today in the American line.

“The shepherd dog is a working dog; he was born so, and only as such can he remain a ‘shepherd dog’; the dog which we value and love. His abundance of joy in life must be used and he must be allowed to work even when kept by an amateur.”
– von Stephanitz

I am not promoting the show dog , i am not attacking your type , i have said it before in this thread its the temperament and drives of the gsd that i am after first and foremost. I dont know where the gsd will go from here , the state of the show gsd in the States is terrible imo and i hope we dont get as bad . People have their preference as to how the gsd should look/would like it to look , thats fair enough , as long as the temperament is still there , that will do me.

Bullseye1

I appreciate the information. I haven't a clue on the history of the breed so I appreciate your effort to answer the question.

kylith

Shammy wrote: »

Funny because he has the correct gsd temperament , he has all the attributes of the gsd breed , but yet you would not have him because of the way he looks ......

Personally I would much prefer to have an 'original' straight-backed GSD. Not only would I worry about a roach-backed one's hips, but, imo, they look like they're constantly mid-poo.

Cherry Blossom

boomerang wrote: »

Just throwing this into the conversation. It generated a good bit of debate as a lot of viewers felt the two videos did not offer a fair comparison of show v working GSDs.

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2011/08/m-is-for.html

Finally got around to reading that. I'm afraid personally I don't have enough of an interest in the breed to delve into the matter much further. I've been inspired enough to consider enrolling on a canine anatomy course though, it seems to be an area there isn't enough knowledge of within the general population.

**Vai**

boomerang wrote: »

Just throwing this into the conversation. It generated a good bit of debate as a lot of viewers felt the two videos did not offer a fair comparison of show v working GSDs.

http://pedigreedogsexposed.blogspot.com/2011/08/m-is-for.html

My god. I havent see anything that bad in a long time. Those poor dogs walking around on what look to be a seals back legs. Not trying to make light of it but, genuinely thats what it looks like. I feel extra justified in what Ive been saying now. Whoever bred those dogs to look like that should be shot. I didnt even look at the second video. I dont need to, I have a comparison sitting beside me right now and she does not look or walk like that.

Shammy

**Vai** wrote: »

My god. I havent see anything that bad in a long time. Those poor dogs walking around on what look to be a seals back legs. .

That is pretty much like all american show dogs , unfortunately you have breeders here and in europe who seem to like this type of dog . Way too over angulated , not steady .
Videx (david payne) is a very well known breeder in england (first vid) i cant understand why he would breed and promote a dog like that.

DBB

Shammy wrote: »

That is pretty much like all american show dogs , unfortunately you have breeders here and in europe who seem to like this type of dog . Way too over angulated , not steady .
Videx (david payne) is a very well known breeder in england (first vid) i cant understand why he would breed and promote a dog like that.

Because that's what's winning in the show ring! Look at the GSD who won BoB and BoG in Crufts this year! I was very hopeful that the KC was taking real stpes to combat the frogdog problem, but when this dog won this year, I lost all faith in the KC.
Even in pics where the dog is stacked, I repeatedly see the handler pushing the butt down further, giving the dog an even more exagerrated frogdog appearance... frogdogs win shows! Dogs who win shows make money!
Until all judges start selecting dogs with a healthy conformation, as long as some judges continue to allow frogdogs to win, breeders must feel they have little choice but to produce frogdogs, even if they know it's wrong.

Carol555

Agree DBB. I can't see anything changing as long as dogs with exaggerated features are being awarded at shows and this would require attitude change from KC, judges and breeders themselves.

I found this document online: http://www.videxgsd.com/PDF/GSD-KC-REALITY%20final.pdf
Two interesting quotes:

Kennel Club’s effectiveness over implementing significant changes to bring about major improvements in the health and welfare of pedigree dogs is seriously compromised by their clear priority of protecting and maximising their REGISTRATION income and the Kennel Club show entries.

and

The GSD Partnership (GSDP), and indeed the World Union of Shepherd Dog Clubs (WUSV), is well aware of a degree of unsoundness in the hindquarters of some German Shepherds. This is neither correct nor welcome, but can only be overcome by an educated judging system being put in place, alongside an awareness campaign throughout the GSD breed.