The EU and European identity

fontanalis

Namlub wrote: »

A lot of people don't know the difference between Europe and the EU...

Some countries from Europe pay more into the EU than others!

Seanchai

dilbert2 wrote: »

Do you believe that a European identity exists?

Of course. I'm Irish and European. I am immensely proud to be associated with both. I don't feel alien in the art galleries of Firenze or the amazing streets of old Strasbourg, where Irish monks were so important as long ago as the sixteenth century. When I walk into the Irish Colleges in Louvain, Paris, Roma or Salamanca or see the grave of Aodh Rua Ó Dónaill in the Franciscan monastery in Valladolid in Spain it is clear that Ireland's past, as well as Ireland's future, is intrinsically connected with European history and identity.

Only somebody ignorant of Irish history, or brainwashed into accepting British nationalist narratives on Ireland's historic position, could deny that we, the Irish people, are European as well as Irish.

charlemont

One point I think is that if Ireland didnt join the EEC in 73, We would be an even worse gombeen state then we are now, Possibly still under the cloak of Catholicism and its paedophile friends.

Son Of A Vidic

Despite the best efforts of the Reichsführer Merkel and her urgent drive towards a European superstate. The 'European identity' will never exist, to compare it with the United States is folly. The United States is one nation, the European superstate will always be a conglomerate of many nations/identities.

mickthemick

fontanalis wrote: »

Hopefully those dictators get removed at their respective countries next election.

On 19 November 2009, Van Rompuy was chosen unanimously by the European Council, at an informal meeting in Brussels, to be the first full-time President of the European Councilfor the period of 1 December 2009 until 31 May 2012. He took up his position officially on 1 January 2010.

I didn't get to vote for him. We had no say. We should have.

The EU make over 80 percent of our laws. I like Europe, but I dislike the EU. It's obvious that there is a political elite in in Europe that want to make the EU into a superstate to rival China and the US.

Also they made us vote twice for Lisbon and Nice. They hate democracy!

pickarooney

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

I voted NO in the poll , But upon reflection have changed my mind and would now like to vote YES.

Just wait a couple of months until the poll is re-run.

prinz

Yes I consider myself European. A lot closer to European culture, politics, society, history, ideals, and outlooks than American or anything else. However it is pointless to compare it to the US, not even the EU compares to the US. What we have is uniquely European.

humanji

mickthemick wrote: »

On 19 November 2009, Van Rompuy was chosen unanimously by the European Council, at an informal meeting in Brussels, to be the first full-time President of the European Councilfor the period of 1 December 2009 until 31 May 2012. He took up his position officially on 1 January 2010.

I didn't get to vote for him. We had no say. We should have.

We voted in the people who voted on it.

The EU make over 80 percent of our laws.

No they don't.

I like Europe, but I dislike the EU. It's obvious that there is a political elite in in Europe that want to make the EU into a superstate to rival China and the US.

It's only obvious that people are spreading misinformation and passing it on as fact.

Also they made us vote twice for Lisbon and Nice. They hate democracy!

If they hated democracy then there wouldn't have been a vote in the first place. And it was the will of the people to accept both treaties the second time around.

The EU has enough wrong with it without having to make crap up.

mickthemick

humanji wrote: »

We voted in the people who voted on it.

What are you serious? Do you think in America the party should vote on a president, not the people?

humanji wrote: »

The EU has enough wrong with it without having to make crap up.

Yeah don't even be open to the ideas of what I'm saying. Nice job as a moderator.

Also 'The will of the people' voted in Lisbon. No, fear mongering and bullying did it. We voted No and they FORCED us again to vote. And they would of kept forcing a referendum on us. They only have one thing in mind and that is the centralisation of power.
If you want a United Europe I have no problem with your opinion. But our politicians and the Eurocrats have lead us down this path by not been fully honest. They want to build a Superstate. It's blatantly obvious.

They actually are in discussion to have a EU flag on national teams football jersey's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zatw17-bqT0

They forced us to take the bailouts, because they didn't want the banks to take a hit. The Federal Gov. in the US did the same.

There solution to everything is further integration fiscally, culturally and economically.

But keep supporting them and there anti democratic ways. Anything for the United Europe yeah?

humanji

mickthemick wrote: »

What are you serious? Do you think in America the party should vote on a president, not the people?

The president of the US has actual power. The president of the european council is a chairman. There's a world of difference.

Yeah don't even be open to the ideas of what I'm saying. Nice job as a moderator.

Do you want to point out where I was wrong? And what has me being a moderator on another forum have to do with a thread on this forum?

Also 'The will of the people' voted in Lisbon. No, fear mongering and bullying did it. We voted No and they FORCED us again to vote. And they would of kept forcing a referendum on us. They only have one thing in mind and that is the centralisation of power.

There's plenty of statistics that show is was fear mongering and lack of understanding that caused the first "no" vote. And stop pretending you were shanghaied into voting a second time. The government (that were democratically elected on a pro-EU mandate) were well within their constitutional rights to hold the referendum again. Nobody had to change their minds. It's funny how you can claim that democracy is being usurped, yet complain that the people were asked their opinon a second time. People changed their minds. Get over it.

If you want a United Europe I have no problem with your opinion. But our politicians and the Eurocrats have lead us down this path by not been fully honest. They want to build a Superstate. It's blatantly obvious.

It's not that obvious. It's the slippery slope argument that people use to come to the conclusion that X must happen because it's possible X could happen. Many countries in the EU are against a superstate (even Germany has shown that the majority of people don't want it).

They actually are in discussion to have a EU flag on national teams football jersey's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zatw17-bqT0

I highlighted the important part. They discuss all sorts of things that don't come to pass.

They forced us to take the bailouts, because they didn't want the banks to take a hit. The Federal Gov. in the US did the same.

They didn't force us.

There solution to everything is further integration fiscally, culturally and economically.

No it's not. It seems fairly evident that the larger countries want shot of the smaller, economically troubled ones

But keep supporting them and there anti democratic ways. Anything for the United Europe yeah?

Repeatedly claiming they're anti-democratic doesn't make it true.

You're a perfect example why there can't be a European identity similar to the US identity. There's too much mistrust between nations, however misplaced it might be.

LondonIrish90

mickthemick wrote: »

They actually are in discussion to have a EU flag on national teams football jersey's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zatw17-bqT0

One quote from that evil looking woman summed up the EU for me perfectly: "We should not listen to the British press".

Newspapers have become finely tuned to the opinions and beliefs of the public in Britain over the centuries, they have had to to survive. If many of them are (it was the Express, Mail, telegraph, Mirror, Sun and I think the times) running the story then it suggests that a significant number of the population are very much opposed to this proposition.

The fact the German dismisses this possibility completely tells you all you need to know about the EU.

Zebra3

grenache wrote: »

Lets not forget that America has some outlandish right wing movements such as the Tea Party and other christian fundamentalist groups, something that is not commonplace in central/southern Europe.

You're not aware of how right-wing Italy is?

Read more, before making your big, bs posts.

mickthemick

humanji wrote: »

It's funny how you can claim that democracy is being usurped, yet complain that the people were asked their opinon a second time. People changed their minds. Get over it.

It's not funny. Democracy is been usurped. Get over it.

The Lisbon Treaty was forced on us again! You and the Eurocrats have only one idea for Europe and that is the more centralized and integrated the better. A democracy works when the people of a country decide there own futures and how they want to live. Not by a political elite who think they know what's good for us.

I suppose we're just looking at it from different angels. You like the EU and for some reason, you are totally unable to criticise it. Even when the only thing they want us to vote on is pro EU national parties that will hand over more of our sovereignty to them and allow them to enact further ridiculous directives and regulations.

So really, it's not very funny at all.

humanji wrote: »

The president of the US has actual power. The president of the european council is a chairman. There's a world of difference.

What do you mean by chairman? The EU president is the principal representative of the European Union on the world stage, and the person presiding over and driving forward the work of the European Council. This institution comprises the college of heads of state or government of EU member states as well as the President of the European Commission, and provides political direction to the European Union. So I don't think he's just some chairman.

humanji wrote: »

Repeatedly claiming they're anti-democratic doesn't make it true.

Your right, but the fact that the EU is anti-democratic is why it is true to say that the EU is anti-democratic. You know, because it is fact.

Also

humanji wrote: »

You're a perfect example why there can't be a European identity similar to the US identity. There's too much mistrust between nations, however misplaced it might be.

Who said anything about mistrusting nations. I don't trust the 'EU'. It's not a nation. It's a falling attempt at a Super State. I don't trust them, because they've proven time and time again that they really do hate democracy in all shapes and forms. Come on man, I love all the different nations in Europe that are so different culturally and geographically. My 'mistrust' isn't misplaced. I know who exactly I don't trust. I don't trust the EU.

mickthemick

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

One quote from that evil looking woman summed up the EU for me perfectly: "We should not listen to the British press".

Your dead right. The EU hate populism! In other words democracy.

MetalDog

If you vote "No" to this poll, will you be made vote again? :P

humanji

mickthemick wrote: »

It's not funny. Democracy is been usurped. Get over it.

How? At what point were the peoples wishes not upheld? And don't bother using the second referenda as an excuse, because they were democratic votes where the people chose. The original vote was upheld until the second vote. Democracy in action.

The Lisbon Treaty was forced on us again!

By our own democratically elected government using their constitutional right. How is that not democratic? It's not exactly fair play, but it's completely, 100% democratic.

You and the Eurocrats have only one idea for Europe and that is the more centralized and integrated the better. A democracy works when the people of a country decide there own futures and how they want to live. Not by a political elite who think they know what's good for us.

You're very quick to assume I want a more centralised Europe. I don't. I'm simply pointing out that what you've been told is wrong.

I suppose we're just looking at it from different angels. You like the EU and for some reason, you are totally unable to criticise it. Even when the only thing they want us to vote on is pro EU national parties that will hand over more of our sovereignty to them and allow them to enact further ridiculous directives and regulations.

I'm more than able to criticise the EU and I think it's got a hell of a lot of problems. That's why I said that in my first post on this thread. And that's why I said there's no point making up stuff to complain about when you can just use actual facts to complain about it.

Your right, but the fact that the EU is anti-democratic is why it is true to say that the EU is anti-democratic. You know, because it is fact.

Again, you're just saying it's anti-democratic over and over when I've shown that you're wrong.

Who said anything about mistrusting nations. I don't truth the 'EU'. It's not a nation. It's a falling attempt at a Super State. I don't trust them, because they've proved time and time again that they really do hate democracy in all shapes and forms. Come on man, I love all the different nations in Europe that are so different culturally and geographically. I hate the EU, that's different.

The EU is made up of, and run by nations. I'm not saying that people are having a mistrust of the general populace of a country, but that a lot of people have a problem with the general idea of another nation having any sort of say in their own nation.

Morlar

I love Europe and european culture, history and tradition, always have and always will. Personally I'd see Russia as being more of a part of Europe than say, Turkey. I think cultural diversity and richness is a very different thing to an eu-wide eu-legislation enforced homogenous identity or character. I think the eu over legislates in national affairs and this trend is only going in one direction as far as I can make out.

So I am more and more pro-Europe but anti-eu.

This goes back to lison I and II, also to tyrants running around like Daniel Cohn Bendit speaking down to the Czech leader ;

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/christopherbooker/3757520/Czech-leader-in-shock-after-EU-assault.html

The arrogance of people like Baroso and so on. Nowadays when something like france24/euronews comes on it feels more and more like eu taxpayer funded propaganda.

mickthemick

humanji wrote: »

I'm simply pointing out that what you've been told is wrong.

No, I listened to the news, just like you. However I formed my own opinion on the EU. I know forming an opinion, especiality one that may be different from the EU elite sounds strange and unusual. But that's what I did. I can actually form opinions of my own. Amazing. You should really try it. However I must warn you, if you do actually think for yourself you might form opinions that could be euro-skeptic.

I think this nails my argument on the head. You think people can't have differenting opinions on things like the EU ect.. If it is politically correct there can't be anything wrong (sarcasm alert, I have the feeling you could have trouble detecting it). If my EU masters, that are so benevolent, say something, than it must be true. They would never lie or corrupt the system.

So my advise to you is question what you hear more. Try it at least once a day for the next month. I guaranty you'll see differences in the opinions you form. If not you can have your money back..

humanji wrote: »

Again, you're just saying it's anti-democratic over and over when I've shown that you're wrong.

There you go again with the anti-democtaric thing you do. You can't comprehend that people can actually have different opinions on things. You are wrong. I know you FEEL what your saying is right. But see I look at the facts, with no emotionaly connection (face reality) and I form an opinion. Your wrong and I'm right. But you're allowed to have your opinion. I'm not. Irish people are not. That's why we were forced to vote again on Lisbon.

P S

humanji wrote: »

At what point were the peoples wishes not upheld? And don't bother using the second referenda as an excuse

One of the funniest lines I've read all day. The amount of doublespeak coming from you is hilarious. A career in comedy could be a wise choice my friend. You're a funny guy.

On a side note, I'm really surprised at how Eurosceptic this thread has gotten. There's a lot of Lisbon No voters in the house!

humanji wrote: »

but that a lot of people have a problem with the general idea of another nation having any sort of say in their own nation.

No I have a problem with a bunch of Eurocrats (including Irish) that are controlling us like in Soviet Russia. I don't like the idea of a EU superstate. An opinion I formed myself. I didn't just hear it somewhere. I suppose you can't see that. And can only see things through one perspective.

humanji

Oh for god's sake. Look at my first post here and you'll see that I went through yours and pointed out where you were wrong. Not where you had a different opinion, but where your facts were 100% wrong.

You've read up on anti-EU sites and taken it as true. There's no way you could hold the same opinions if you actually read and/or researched the real facts. You're coming from an angle that is anti-EU and so every opinion you then form is biased towards that. You'll only accept what compliments that theory while disregarding anything that proves it wrong.

Sure you've ignored half my posts in order to attack strawmen.

Out of curiosity, can you name a good thing the EU has done? Maybe you can, but I'm guessing you'll have to google it.

And this is why we can't have an EU identity. Instead of finding out for themselves, people just believe what they're told. I'll say it for a third time, and I know I'll be ignored for a third time. The EU has many, many problems. So there's no need to make up some.

mickthemick

humanji wrote: »

Out of curiosity, can you name a good thing the EU has done? Maybe you can, but I'm guessing you'll have to google it.

I can't name one. However there are examples that have both positive and negitives. But the negatives outweigh the positives. Like the single currency.

Actually there is one thing the EU is good for. And that's the free trade area. Everything else is pointless.

I didn't just go on anti EU sites. I formed an opinion for myself that the EU is bad. Why can't you understand that. I think Ireland would be better off outside the EU.

Does every euroskeptic just hear wrong information? Or do they see the erosion of freedom that has taken place in Europe.

You just can't comprehend that people can form different opinions. I suppose the only angle I come from is that I like been an individual and i like freedom. Could that influence my opinions. You probably like political correctness and a central European Government.

Don't worry I have read all your posts. Including your first one. You just lied in it. We were pressured to vote on the treaties again. Then we were lied to, the politicans and corporte media lied to us and scared us. Then we voted yes. That's what happed. Big business loves Euroupe, because they inact regulations that help them. Politicans love the EU because they feel more powerful controlling half a billion people. I used reason to come up with this opinion. Not emotion.

I have a right to a different opinion. Do you not believe people can have there own opinions on things?

Your the type of person that probably thinks Obama is way better that Bush. Even though Obama expanded the War in Afghanistan, Libya and Pakistan. You just like him because he's a democrat. Obama is as bad as that idiot Bush.

Your not reasoning things through. Your going on emotion. Your picking things together like Lisbon 2 was democracy at work. Your whole argument was hypocritical. It makes no sense. Lisbon 2 was pressured on us by the EU. I don't remember hearing people on the street complaining that we need to vote on it again. It was decided by the EU for us to vote on it again. The Irish Gov. did what it was told. And then all the fear mongering began with the media and our political parties. That's what happened. That's a fact. You can't deny that.

You probably think I'm some redneck conservative. But I'm not, I support gay marriage and the decriminalization of drugs. I just like freedom and I don't like been told how I should live my life by a bunch of Eurocrats.

humanji

mickthemick wrote: »

I can't name one. However there are examples that have both positive and negitives. But the negatives outweigh the positives. Like the single currency.

As I assumed. You haven't actually read up on the EU at all, have you?

Actually there is one thing the EU is good for. And that's the free trade area.

Well even that has it's bad points. Oops, sorry I take that back, otherwise you might realise that I don't blindly support everything the EU does .

I didn't just go on anti EU sites. I formed an opinion for myself that the EU is bad. Why can't you understand that. I think Ireland would be better off outside the EU.

Then can you explain the figure of 80% you came up with for the amount of laws forced on us poor Irish?

Does every euroskeptic just hear wrong information? Or do they see the erosion of freedom that has taken place in Europe.

Is it that black and white to you? Not all euroskeptics think the EU is a runaway monster. Many have actual valid points they can bring to the table instead of rattling off disproven mystery "facts".

You just can't comprehend that people can form different opinions. I suppose the only angle I come from is that I like been an individual and i like freedom. Could that influence my opinions. You probably like political correctness and a central European Government

.
You see, this is called a strawman argument. Instead of replying to anything I say, you falsely claim I said something else and argue against that. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. In fact, and ironically, it's one of the pivotal points of the EU. My problem is with people claiming something is a fact when it has been proven not to be.

Don't worry I have read all your posts. Including your first one. You just lied in it.

Point out where I lied. (Don't worry, I know you can't. Just ignore this like you ignored all the other points).

We were pressured to vote on the treaties again. Then we were lied to, the politicans and corporte media lied to us and scared us.

We were free to still vote "No". I mean, the lies and fear mongering from the no side didn't work the second time round, so why do you think the yes side must have won because of it?

Then we voted yes. That's what happed. Big business loves Euroupe, because they inact regulations that help them. Politicans love the EU because they feel more powerful controlling half a billion people. I used reason to come up with this opinion. Not emotion.

You used biased information to form an opinion. You're perfectly entitled to this opinion. But again, when you provide false statements to back yourself up you should expect people to question them and not follow you blindly.

I have a right to a different opinion. Do you not believe people can have there own opinions on things?

Another strawman. I never said otherwise.

Your the type of person that probably thinks Obama is way better that Bush. Even though Obama expanded the War in Afghanistan, Libya and Pakistan. You just like him because he's a democrat. Obama is as bad as that idiot Bush.

You're the type of person who can't defend a point and builds strawmen instead. When did I mention Bush or Obama?

Your not reasoning things through. Your going on emotion. Your picking things together like Lisbon 2 was democracy at work. Your whole argument was hypocritical.

I assume there's no reason to ask you to explain this?

It makes no sense. Lisbon 2 was pressured on us by the EU. I don't remember hearing people on the street complaining that we need to vote on it again.

There were actually plenty of people complaining.

It was decided by the EU for us to vote on it again. The Irish Gov. did what it was told.

In your opinion.

And then all the fear mongering began with the media and our political parties. That's what happened. That's a fact. You can't deny that.

I never said the Yes side didn't use the same tactics the no side did.

You probably think I'm some redneck conservative. But I'm not, I support gay marriage and the decriminalization of drugs. I just like freedom and I don't like been told how I should live my life by a bunch of Eurocrats.

Again with the strawmen. I said no such thing, so why pretend that that's what I think?

JMSE

Personally I don't identify myself as European. Most other European countries used us down the centuries for their own gains.

Dionysus

LondonIrish90 wrote: »

One quote from that evil looking woman summed up the EU for me perfectly: "We should not listen to the British press".

Newspapers have become finely tuned to the opinions and beliefs of the public in Britain over the centuries, they have had to to survive. If many of them are (it was the Express, Mail, telegraph, Mirror, Sun and I think the times) running the story then it suggests that a significant number of the population are very much opposed to this proposition.

The fact the German dismisses this possibility completely tells you all you need to know about the EU.

You have got to be taking the piss - or else you're a British rightwinger yourself? If I recall from your previous posts you are both British and a europhobe. Boards.ie certainly gets them!

The British rightwing press is horrendous on all things relating to the EU. It is Yellow Press dross, europhobic, xenophobic and precisely the same section of the British media which has detested the Irish for so, so long. It perenially takes the most belligerant anti-foreigner position imaginable. It rallies the troops, be it behind campaigns to release convicted British Army murderers such as Lee Clegg or campaigns to discredit innocent bystanders like Carmen Proetta or to cheer when 323 people were murdered by the British state in international waters. They bring "faith and fatherland" nationlistic politics to a new level. These are the same British nationalist newspapers which described the 27 unarmed Irish civil rights protesters who were shot on Bloody Sunday as "terrorists". The culture of these "newspapers" is immoral - offensive in the extreme - to any impartial outside observer. Tapping phones is only the tip of the iceberg of what the europhobic British tabloids have been up to. Yet to you, they are "representative". Jesus wept.

In contrast to this ignominious role, the EU has been brilliant for Ireland and those Irish people who are fortunate enough to live in that part of the country which is free from British rule. The vast, vast majority of educated Irish people would acknowledge this, while being justifiably pissed off at the shenanigans of Sarkozy and Merkel in particular.

So, what are you doing on an Irish forum spreading your British nationalist, anti-Irish europhobic tabloid agenda? Wouldn't you people just love if Ireland left the EU and you could hammer ten shades of shíte out of the Irish people for another few centuries.

The Britsh Empire is over. You people are patently having difficulty accepting this. It is, nevertheless, decidedly over. Long live the European Union, better roads, cleaner towns, greater environmental consciousness, the ECHR, greater social justice, greater cultural openness, and so, so much more. It is long past the time that the cultural and political dominance of British nationalist ideas had some competition in Ireland. And the EU is the institution which has been, and will continue to, do that. Ireland is an increasingly healthy and more balanced society because of that challenge. The old days of all Irish roads leading to England were truly dark, myopic, suffocating days in our country's history. Being British, you are clearly oblivious to the path upon which the Irish have travelled.

/end rant. :mad:

LondonIrish90

Dionysus wrote: »

You have got to be taking the piss - or else you're a British rightwinger yourself? If I recall from your previous posts you are both British and a europhobe. Boards.ie certainly gets them!

The British rightwing press is horrendous on all things relating to the EU. It is Yellow Press dross, europhobic, xenophobic and precisely the same section of the British media which has detested the Irish for so, so long. It perenially takes the most belligerant anti-foreigner position imaginable. It rallies the troops, be it behind campaigns to release convicted British Army murderers such as Lee Clegg or campaigns to discredit innocent bystanders like Carmen Proetta or to cheer when 323 people were murdered by the British state in international waters. They bring "faith and fatherland" nationlistic politics to a new level. These are the same British nationalist newspapers which described the 27 unarmed Irish civil rights protesters who were shot on Bloody Sunday as "terrorists". The culture of these "newspapers" is immoral - offensive in the extreme - to any impartial outside observer. Tapping phones is only the tip of the iceberg of what the europhobic British tabloids have been up to. Yet to you, they are "representative". Jesus wept.

In contrast to this ignominious role, the EU has been brilliant for Ireland and those Irish people who are fortunate enough to live in that part of the country which is free from British rule. The vast, vast majority of educated Irish people would acknowledge this, while being justifiably pissed off at the shenanigans of Sarkozy and Merkel in particular.

So, what are you doing on an Irish forum spreading your British nationalist, anti-Irish europhobic tabloid agenda? Wouldn't you people just love if Ireland left the EU and you could hammer ten shades of shíte out of the Irish people for another few centuries.

The Britsh Empire is over. You people are patently having difficulty accepting this. It is, nevertheless, decidedly over. Long live the European Union, better roads, cleaner towns, greater environmental consciousness, the ECHR, greater social justice, greater cultural openness, and so, so much more. It is long past the time that the cultural and political dominance of British nationalist ideas had some competition in Ireland. And the EU is the institution which has been, and will continue to, do that. Ireland is an increasingly healthy and more balanced society because of that challenge. The old days of all Irish roads leading to England were truly dark, myopic, suffocating days in our country's history. Being British, you are clearly oblivious to the path upon which the Irish have travelled.

/end rant. :mad:

Errr, ok.

I dislike the EU because of their invasion of British sovereignty. I dislike the fact that decisions on how people in Britain live are decided not in our own parliament, but in the European parliament. I dislike the fact that we give far more money to the rest of the EU than we get back. These are my reasons.

I'm not quite sure where you have got the idea that I want to see the second coming of the British Empire or the destruction of the Irish nation from. Yes, I am British. I was born in Britain and have grown up in Britain so obviously I have been massively influenced by the country. I have Irish parents who moved to Britain before my birth however so my connection to your country is still quite strong. I think you have just taken a sledgehammer and created an opening to give us your (irrelevant in the context of this thread) anti-British views. The fact you describe a nation of 60 million as "you people" shows just how high your levels of contempt are.

I'm very sorry if I don't welcome the EU with open arms. I'm sure you will however notice than many in this thread who live in Ireland share similar reservations but you didn't verbally fill them in in the manner you have my post.

grenache

conorhal wrote: »

I don't watch a lot of Spanish soap operas, and while I'm a film buff that does watch French and German films, I'd say the bulk of TV and film I watch comes from America and that creates a cultural commonality and familiarity that does not exist for me with many other European nations. I love the British sense of humor for example, it's quite close to the Irish sense of humor and so most of the comedy I watch comes from the UK, have you ever seen Itallian 'comedy' (Jesus, even the Germans are funnier).

In media/cultural popularism terms we are maybe closer to America, i will admit, but certainly from less individualistic, religious, political and commericial point of view we are closer to our fellow Europeans. Yes our sense of humour is similar to that of the dry British sort, but Britain is European too. For what its worth Italian and Spanish humour is very similar to ours and Britain's, extremely dry.

conorhal wrote: »

You have a strangely homogenious view of the States. I'd say Greece and Poland were just as religously fervent at the Southern states. I think the Irish are pretty politically conservative.

We were politically conservative; now that the power of the church has decrased significantly, on the whole i do not think you could still call us conservative.

conorhal wrote: »

I find America to be a very tolerant place, it's the most harmoniously multicultural place on earth, sure there are problems and nobody could deny them, but given that it's population was created from the migrants of hundreds of different countries, with a vast array of religious and cultural practices, it's a tribute to the brilliance of the US constitution, a document that guarantees freedom of religious practice and expression that accommodates individualism and yet manages to weave all these disparate people into such a cohesive nation.

It's not been very tolerant of blacks and catholics down throughout the years!

conorhal wrote: »

As for the bunkum about Communism, if you'd fought a few wars with Communist nations and gone to the brink of Nuclear Armageddon with the USSR you might be a little culturally leery of that bankrupt ideology too.

America chose to fight those wars against Communism. Nobody forced her. It wasn't like the British in WWII who had no choice but to defend herself against German aggression on her doorstep. America had no business going into Vietnam or Korea - there is a case to be made for Cuba as it's so near. Likewise they had right to go into Latin and South America and support dictatorships that led to mass killings such as in Chile and Argentina. America needs to stop interfering in other countries business.

conorhal wrote: »

Oh you're one of those people that gets sniffy about the yanks and gun ownership. You clearly know feck all about our European friends, Ireland because if it's history with paramilitaries is a bit of an abboration, gun ownership his actually pretty common on the continent in quite a few countries, and most of those uber liberal Nordic countries you're so find of are armed to the teeth. I guess it's a product of the same fronteerism that fosterd popular gun ownership in the US.

Of course i have a problem with gun ownership. I think i'm entitled to walk down a street in New York without having to worry if the man walking towards me is carrying a gun! There is zero need for guns. Most of my argument is based around central and southern Europe, i never claimed we have much in common with the Nordic countries (we don't bar Viking blood ties). I abhor the US gun licensing laws, they are incredibly out-dated and serve no purpose in today's society. They come from the time of the war of independence when colonists were allowed to arm themselves against British aggression.

conorhal wrote: »

Closer to Boston then Berlin in my opinion, I think the Irish share that American averice and individualism. Don't get me wrong,I like my European neighbors, but I also figure that good fences make good neighbors.

How us Irish actually think is more closer to Berlin, we think in far more similar terms to the Europeans. We'll have to agree to disagree on this.

Zebra3 wrote: »

You're not aware of how right-wing Italy is?

Read more, before making your big, bs posts.

As a frequent visitor to Italy i'm aware of its right wing tendencies. Let me also tell you there is as big a liberal lefty division in Italy (the Italian Communist Party was the biggest in Europe for many years) as there is a conservative one.

Now, go and learn some manners my son. While you're at it, learn some Italian history before i set the Brigato Rosso on you

KeithAFC

No.

dfx-

Yes.

Given the insignificance and irrelevance of Ireland in global terms standing alone (we don't stand for anything, have much impact, have any contrasting political parties or ideals since they're all the same shade of grey), it's easier to describe myself within European terms of reference when abroad.