Submariners - the elite of a navy ?

HellsAngel

It's quite vague, but I think I once remember hearing on a documentary that the crew of a submarine weren't just your average sailor, but were highly trained/elite from the regular navy. Any truth to it ?

Also do you have to have a certain amount of service before applying to join the submarine service and how rigorous etc is the training ?

johnny_doyle

HellsAngel wrote: »

It's quite vague, but I think I once remember hearing on a documentary that the crew of a submarine weren't just your average sailor, but were highly trained/elite from the regular navy. Any truth to it ?

no truth at all as far as the Royal Navy is concerned. There are generally 4 types in the RN Submarine Service :

1. the ugly naval ratings that need to be hidden when Navy recruitment photos and videos are being taken.
2. the shy naval ratings who don't want to appear in Navy recruitment photos and videos
3. those with a belly button fluff fetish and a penchant for vacuum cleaners, hence the term "navel man hoovers"
4. naval ratings that suffer from sea sickness

All are thoroughly tested to ensure that they don't know how to use a tin opener.

OK, I jest, pop along to the following webpage

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/careers/explore-jobs/fleet/submarines/index.htm

OS119

HellsAngel wrote: »

It's quite vague, but I think I once remember hearing on a documentary that the crew of a submarine weren't just your average sailor, but were highly trained/elite from the regular navy. Any truth to it ?

Also do you have to have a certain amount of service before applying to join the submarine service and how rigorous etc is the training ?

i think theres a 'non-official' element of selection for submarine service that goes further than that for general, surface service - you do have to be a bit 'special' to live and work in a steel tube containing a nuclear reactor for three months without seeing the sky, and thats probably not something you can test for on paper, or even with the ubiquitous oil drums, rope, planks and shark infested custard.

an additional element is that the 'maybes', the people who scrape through but don't inspire confidence - and every organisation has them - are probably not sent to submarines: if you turn out to be **** on a Frigate the navy can fly someone out to replace you, if you do the same on a 3 month deterence patrol the sub is stuck with you and can't get a replacement.

and Frigates don't carry lots of 200kt nuclear warheads.

iceage

Also the ability to hot bunk somebody elses farts.... Nails mate, they have nerves of bloody steel.

alanmcqueen

You might remember this?:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375551/HMS-Astute-shooting-Submarine-leaves-scene-crime.html

Fratton Fred

Apart from training to use a different machine, the is a very intensive submarine escape training course.

There is a tower in Gosport that is basically a big vertical swimming pool with a hatch at the bottom that they use.

alanmcqueen

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Apart from training to use a different machine, the is a very intensive submarine escape training course.

There is a tower in Gosport that is basically a big vertical swimming pool with a hatch at the bottom that they use.

I saw that on a documentary once, very scary. If I remember correctly they had to exhale all the way through the ascent as the lungs expand. A plastic bag sent up first exploded on the ascent which vividly demonstrated the importance of exhaling to prevent lung damage or worse.

Always had an interest in submarines and I found this book simply riveting:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Time-Die-Disaster-Robert-Moore/dp/0553813854/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1314396039&sr=8-3

Mahatma coat

Its nice that the Navy maintains its tradition of Burial at sea, but I think its a bit much to make them drive the Coffin out there first.
:D:D

On the subject of Subs tho

what are people opinions on Australias 'State of the Art' DIESEL Colins Class Subs??

OS119

Mahatma coat wrote: »

...what are people opinions on Australias 'State of the Art' DIESEL Colins Class Subs??

they'll make excellent artificial reefs.

HellsAngel

johnny_doyle wrote: »

no truth at all as far as the Royal Navy is concerned. There are generally 4 types in the RN Submarine Service :

1. the ugly naval ratings that need to be hidden when Navy recruitment photos and videos are being taken.
2. the shy naval ratings who don't want to appear in Navy recruitment photos and videos
3. those with a belly button fluff fetish and a penchant for vacuum cleaners, hence the term "navel man hoovers"
4. naval ratings that suffer from sea sickness

All are thoroughly tested to ensure that they don't know how to use a tin opener.

OK, I jest, pop along to the following webpage

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/careers/explore-jobs/fleet/submarines/index.htm

alanmcqueen

Still, Submariners I'm sure are above the average Sailor:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article1655018.ece

How could life aboard a sub compare to the horror of having your iPod taken off you?

Fratton Fred

alanmcqueen wrote: »

I saw that on a documentary once, very scary. If I remember correctly they had to exhale all the way through the ascent as the lungs expand. A plastic bag sent up first exploded on the ascent which vividly demonstrated the importance of exhaling to prevent lung damage or worse.

Always had an interest in submarines and I found this book simply riveting:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Time-Die-Disasteri-Robert-Moore/dp/0553813854/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1314396039&sr=8-3

The theory is what you would learn when scuba diving, these guys just perfect the art and do it from a greater depth.

They used to run demonstrations on a Sunday morning in the tower, but that has probably stopped now.

Capt'n Midnight

OS119 wrote: »

and shark infested custard.

You can just walk across the custard :pac:

Raging_Ninja

Mahatma coat wrote: »

what are people opinions on Australias 'State of the Art' DIESEL Colins Class Subs??

I'm no expert, but I've been led to believe that diesel-elecric subs are fairly stealthy while submerged due to the fact that there is less machinery involved in moving it around while underwater (no moving parts in a battery) as compared to a nuclear sub. Their prime weakness is being caught recharging at or near the surface using the diesel engine.

Capt'n Midnight

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

I'm no expert, but I've been led to believe that diesel-elecric subs are fairly stealthy while submerged due to the fact that there is less machinery involved in moving it around while underwater (no moving parts in a battery) as compared to a nuclear sub. Their prime weakness is being caught recharging at or near the surface using the diesel engine.

you can get AIP systems

Swedes use stirling engines
can also store O2 in torroidal sections , ie make the hull from the gas cylinders, and you compress the CO2 and store it in the same cylinders

HTP - hydrogen peroxide is just nasty stuff, but you can travel quite far / fast with it

problem with nukes is that you need pumps and stuff running to keep the reactors cool so they can never be totally steatly unless you go for passive cooling, and even then you still have to get rid of waste heat

HellsAngel

Well since we're on about subs, here's the trailer from the German made Das Boot, one of the most intense, riveting TV series you will ever see. If you have not seen it - see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMj0_wCn6jM&feature=related

Capt'n Midnight

HellsAngel wrote: »

Well since we're on about subs, here's the trailer from the German made Das Boot, one of the most intense, riveting TV series you will ever see. If you have not seen it - see it.

If you ever get a chance have a read of Pig Boats by Theodore Roscoe, it's about US subs in the Pacific in WWII

Capt'n Midnight

BTW
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056370966
Das Boot (2 Disc Director's Cut Mini Series - Blu-ray - Pre-order) - €11 delivered

Mahatma coat

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

I'm no expert, but I've been led to believe that diesel-elecric subs are fairly stealthy while submerged due to the fact that there is less machinery involved in moving it around while underwater (no moving parts in a battery) as compared to a nuclear sub. Their prime weakness is being caught recharging at or near the surface using the diesel engine.

As I recall the main technical issue with them when discussion came up with Australians was their Limited Range which is about 1000 miles in Ideal circumstances mostly on the surface, which is really feck all use when the distance between some of the cities can be over 2000 miles along the coast.

Also they built 6 but can only crew 2

Rovi

Don't think this has been posted anywhere else here, and this thread seems suitable.

The New Jersey National Guard have an elite unit of submariners too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X79gNYpYO3k

HellsAngel

Watching a program on one of the Discovery channels yesterday it told of how when subs were first introduced the admirals of every navy thought that submarine warfare was ungentlemanly and said if they ever got submariners alive they would hang them as a pirate !!!!

Tabnabs

HellsAngel wrote: »

Well since we're on about subs, here's the trailer from the German made Das Boot, one of the most intense, riveting TV series you will ever see. If you have not seen it - see it.

Do yourself a favour and buy the book as well. If you think the movie is good, the book is much better again.

Tabnabs

On other interesting Sub news - Germany Sells Israel More Dolphin Subs

A few interesting points here:

The German government is picking up 1/3 of the cost (don't mention the War )

• The Dolphins are quiet diesel-electric attack submarines that evolved from Germany’s famous and ubiquitous U209 Class.

• You may notice the subs have a blue tint to their colouring, this is due to the water colour in the area of operation. It is believed they will blend in a little better than the traditional black colour.

HellsAngel

Tabnabs wrote: »

On other interesting Sub news - Germany Sells Israel More Dolphin Subs

A few interesting points here:

• The German government is picking up 1/3 of the cost (don't mention the War )

• The Dolphins are quiet diesel-electric attack submarines that evolved from Germany’s famous and ubiquitous U209 Class.

• You may notice the subs have a blue tint to their colouring, this is due to the water colour in the area of operation. It is believed they will blend in a little better than the traditional black colour.

And don't mention the Holocaust Industry !!!!!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_Industry

HellsAngel

One thing I wonder, the giant Soviet subs, were they practical ?l For example would the huge engines to drive them give them away etc

Fratton Fred

HellsAngel wrote: »

One thing I wonder, the giant Soviet subs, were they practical ?l For example would the huge engines to drive them give them away etc

For a nuclear sub, it was the coolant systems that were noisy because they had to be constantly pumping water, diesel electric were much quieter but had a shorter range.

For all subs, it was the propeller that was the biggest problem though.

Rovi

HellsAngel wrote: »

Watching a program on one of the Discovery channels yesterday it told of how when subs were first introduced the admirals of every navy thought that submarine warfare was ungentlemanly and said if they ever got submariners alive they would hang them as a pirate !!!!

This allegedly led to the submarine service taking on the Jolly Roger as an unofficial emblem, a tradition that, again allegedly, continues to this day:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolly_Roger#By_submarines

Capt'n Midnight

HellsAngel wrote: »

One thing I wonder, the giant Soviet subs, were they practical ?l For example would the huge engines to drive them give them away etc

The plan for the giant Soviet subs was to sit motionless on the bottom for months ready to launch. Once they launched it's kinda academic in the grand scheme of things what happens to them.


re large engines, during the Vietman war one of the US carriers was heading there and americans detected a soviet sub following them. They played a game of cat and mouse. The carrier would slowly accellerate. This meant the sub couldn't stop to get instructions as they would loose contact. So the plan was to tempt them to go flat out to keep following. They did. The americans got a huge shock. The sub was detected because it was an older noisy one. And it was able to keep up with a carrier which meant the the newer quieter ones could too. This meant that the US reliance on carrier speed to evade subs was history.

Note this just meant that the sub had a high probablilty of getting a firing solution at an oncoming carrier rather than the sub being able to intercept a carrier at full speed under any circumstances.

Foghladh

I'm trying madly to recall the name of a German submariner who published a book on his wartime experiences. I'm thinking Hirschman or Hirschfeld, but I do remember him referring to personality tests that indicated he was better suited to either small boats or submarines. I assume the tests indicated that he showed prowess at acting unilaterally and without higher prompting. And presumably immune to claustrophobia!

Rovi

Foghladh wrote: »

I'm trying madly to recall the name of a German submariner who published a book on his wartime experiences. I'm thinking Hirschman or Hirschfeld, but I do remember him referring to personality tests that indicated he was better suited to either small boats or submarines. I assume the tests indicated that he showed prowess at acting unilaterally and without higher prompting. And presumably immune to claustrophobia!

Is this it?:
Another Place, Another Time: A U-boat Officer's Wartime Album (Werner Hirschmann)

Full description for Another Place, Another Time
Neither Sharks nor Wolves: The Men of Nazi Germany's U-Boat Arm, 1939-1945. As a boy growing up in Germany, Werner Hirschmann dreamed of going to sea. In 1940, he was accepted as an officer cadet in the Kriegsmarine, the German navy, and after rigorous training became an engineer officer in the elite U-Boot-Waffe or submarine service. Using his wartime diaries and remarkable photograph albums, as well as historical documents, Werner Hirschmann recounts the many interesting episodes in his naval career, including serving on a destroyer that escorted Bismarck on her last operation, U-boat operations in the Atlantic and Mediterranean, being besieged by the Americans at the U-boat base at Lorient in France, and his last patrol to North America in 1945, on which his submarine, U-190, sank HMCS Esquimalt, the last Canadian warship lost during the war. Hirschmann provides a unique view of the day-to-day life of a U-boat officer who, like young men on both sides, did his best to enjoy life while trying to do his duty. An epilogue describes his postwar life as a prisoner-of-war in Canada and Britain. After the war, he moved to Canada, where he pursued a successful career and eventually became an honorary member of the veterans' association of HMCS Esquimalt. A key feature for many readers is the technical section that provides a detailed pictorial tour of the Type IX/C40 U-boat, including many previously unpublished photographs discovered in Canadian archives. "Another Place, Another Time" was first published in 2004 and is regarded as a classic of U-boat literature. This paperback edition is printed on the same high-quality paper as the original hardcover to ensure the best reproduction of the many superb photographs.

Fratton Fred

I'm surprised no one has mentioned John Phillip Holland yet.

Foghladh

Rovi wrote: »

Is this it?:
Another Place, Another Time: A U-boat Officer's Wartime Album (Werner Hirschmann)

I'm thinking no but that's probably because I've mis-quoted the name
The guy I was referring to was a radio operator on board a U-boat and as far as I recall he was a petty officer. I went through a mad U-boat phase a few years ago and bought every book I could find. Most of which are sitting in boxes in my garage, until I build that oak panelled study, and not very accessible. Incidentally one of my favourite accounts was a British officer by the name of Edward Young. I believe he was the first RNVR to command a sub. Maybe it was the tone of his writings but it seemed less gritty than the other stories I'd read

HellsAngel

Here's an interesting little article on the first use of a submarine type craft The Turtle which was developed by the Americans to attach explosives to the undersides of British warships in the American War of Independence. It was tried several times but failed.




" The Silent Service " http://www.subadventures.net/Sub_03_History.htm