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Tricky Lease Issue

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  • 27-08-2011 1:38pm
    #1
    D_D
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭


    Hi Guys,

    Just wondering if I can get some opinions on something. Myself and a mate signed up for a 12 month lease, September 2010 - September 2011. We have finished the lease that we have signed and planned to move out once it was complete, so in two weeks time we planned to move out.

    We got in contact with the letting agency to say we're moving out once the lease is up, but they're saying that two weeks is not enough of a notice. So now they want us to stay on for another month so they have full notice.

    Does the fact that we signed for a 12 month lease, which we respected, not fullfil our agreement? Four weeks before the lease was up we tried to get in contact with the letting agency by email etc., but they made no effort to get in contact with us and never responded to my emails. Is it not their responsibility to contact the tenant once the end of a lease is approaching to find out if they plan to stay on or not?

    I know no legal advice is allowed to be given here, but I just want to get a general reaction to this.

    Cheers!


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    #2
    sophia25
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭sophia25


    The letting agent is incorrect.

    http://public.prtb.ie/act.htm


    Look under deposit refund

    According to PRTB a tenant does not have to give notice at the termination of the lease, direct the agent to the PRTB website. :)


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    #3
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,399 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    I imagine its a matter of them not keeping their eye on the ball.
    D_D wrote: »
    Is it not their responsibility to contact the tenant once the end of a lease is approaching to find out if they plan to stay on or not?
    It swings both ways. There is no obligation. However, if you sent a written notice a month in advance, they can hardly blame you.

    Write back saying that you had given notice (attach copy of e-mail), explaining that it isn't your problem that they don't read their e-mails. Ask when they would like to inspect the property for handover.


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    #4
    mebird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭mebird


    D_D wrote: »
    Hi Guys,

    Just wondering if I can get some opinions on something. Myself and a mate signed up for a 12 month lease, September 2010 - September 2011. We have finished the lease that we have signed and planned to move out once it was complete, so in two weeks time we planned to move out.

    We got in contact with the letting agency to say we're moving out once the lease is up, but they're saying that two weeks is not enough of a notice. So now they want us to stay on for another month so they have full notice.

    Does the fact that we signed for a 12 month lease, which we respected, not fullfil our agreement? Four weeks before the lease was up we tried to get in contact with the letting agency by email etc., but they made no effort to get in contact with us and never responded to my emails. Is it not their responsibility to contact the tenant once the end of a lease is approaching to find out if they plan to stay on or not?

    I know no legal advice is allowed to be given here, but I just want to get a general reaction to this.

    Cheers!

    Your letting agent is absolutely correct.

    Once you have been in a tenancy for 6 months you are entitled to a Part 4 tenancy. You are entitled to this minimum security of tenure immediately after your Fixed Term ends.

    You do not therefore have to give notice of your intention to stay on. But you do have to give notice of your intention to quit the tenancy which continues past your 'lease'.


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    #5
    mebird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭mebird


    sophia25 wrote: »
    The letting agent is incorrect.

    http://public.prtb.ie/act.htm


    Look under deposit refund

    According to PRTB a tenant does not have to give notice at the termination of the lease, direct the agent to the PRTB website. :)

    OP can quote this in their defense but I think it is wrong. It also goes onto say that if the tenant decides to stay at the end of the fixed term they must give notice of their intention to stay.... rubbish. Most fixed terms continue into Part 4's with no communication at all and are perfectly valid tenancies.

    Going to have to refer to the original act to support my view on this... I'll be back.

    BTW who why isn't legal advice allowed ?? Only been on Boards a month and all I see is advice...


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    #6
    Agent J
    Registered Users Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭Agent J


    The lease hasn't expired yet so it hasnt reverted to a part 4.

    It is a fixed term lease so usually no notice to quit is required.(It depends exactly what it says in the lease though) I would expect though the landlord/estate agent to contact the tenant at least a month before to find out the situation.

    I suspect they screwed up and will try to cover it.

    You tried to contact them and the lease hasn't actually expired yet.

    They try to withhold the deposit and tell them you'll take a PRTB case.


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    #7
    D_D
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭D_D


    Well that's our problem at the moment. We assume if we try to call them up on it, they will make it hell to try and get the deposit back. We're thinking that it is probably easier to play ball with them... So the notice has been given.

    Also, one thing that I have noted about these fixed term leases is that there are all sorts of clauses of what happens if you want to leave before the expiry date of the lease, and after the expiry date of the lease, but the actual expiry date is just such a grey area.

    I always thought that I signed a contract for a 12 month lease, which I fulfilled as a good tenant, so it should be assumed that I am leaving the day my contract is complete.

    Anyway, they have €1,100 of my money so I think it's probably easier if we go along with her to keep her happy.


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    #8
    shoegirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭shoegirl


    mebird wrote: »
    OP can quote this in their defense but I think it is wrong. It also goes onto say that if the tenant decides to stay at the end of the fixed term they must give notice of their intention to stay.... rubbish. Most fixed terms continue into Part 4's with no communication at all and are perfectly valid tenancies.

    Going to have to refer to the original act to support my view on this... I'll be back.

    BTW who why isn't legal advice allowed ?? Only been on Boards a month and all I see is advice...

    A part 4 tenancy doesn't automatically happen unless you declare your intention to take up your rights in writing. There is considerable ambiguity surrounding leases especially where they conflict with normal rights. It would be expected in any case however that you would give notice in writing even if you were at the end of a 12 month lease.

    Its unfortunate but a large percentage of landlords are using leases to override tenants rights under the PRTB and force people into signing leases where they should not have to.


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    #9
    sophia25
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭sophia25


    shoegirl wrote: »
    A part 4 tenancy doesn't automatically happen unless you declare your intention to take up your rights in writing. There is considerable ambiguity surrounding leases especially where they conflict with normal rights. It would be expected in any case however that you would give notice in writing even if you were at the end of a 12 month lease.

    Its unfortunate but a large percentage of landlords are using leases to override tenants rights under the PRTB and force people into signing leases where they should not have to.

    A part 4 tenancy does automatically exist once tenancy has lasted longer than 6 months and no valid notice was given. Under Section 195 of RTA a tenant should inform a landlord between 3-1 month prior to the expiry of the lease that they intend to continue their tenancy. If they fail to do this they do not lose their Part 4 rights but they may be liable for any cost a landlord incurs if he proceeds to advertise the property again.

    Although there is nowhere specific in the Act that deals with notice to terminate a fixed term lease on the day of expiry, the PRTB have interpreted a lease with a termination date to be considered satisfactory notice. I know precedent is not considered by the PRTB, but their guidelines issued state that the expiry date of a lease in considered in lieu of notice. As they are the adjudicators in any dispute around the RTA, I think that should be sufficient grounds to accept this. To the OP, I understand why you have decided not to risk delaying refund of your €1,100 but I think that is why an independent body needs to retain deposits because as long as the landlord retains the tenants money, he still has control.


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    #10
    mebird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭mebird


    The issue of notice towards the end of a fixed term agreement is not mentioned anywhere in the Act.

    I would disagree with the PRTB's opinion highlighted by sophia25 on the following basis though :
    The Legislation provides the minimum in security of tenure to the landlord and tenant over a four year cycle.
    The legislation is clear as to the notice periods required throughout that four cycle.
    The fixed term agreed is just one year in that four year cycle. It is more often the first, but could be the second, third and / or fourth year.
    However, given the black and white view expressed by the PRTB on the matter, even though I don't agree with it and think they are wrong, I would say that the tenants are entitled not to give notice towards the end of the fixed term and should look to leave on the day with their deposit in full.


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    #11
    sophia25
    Closed Accounts Posts: 265 ✭✭sophia25


    mebird wrote: »
    The issue of notice towards the end of a fixed term agreement is not mentioned anywhere in the Act.

    I would disagree with the PRTB's opinion highlighted by sophia25 on the following basis though :
    The Legislation provides the minimum in security of tenure to the landlord and tenant over a four year cycle.
    The legislation is clear as to the notice periods required throughout that four cycle.
    The fixed term agreed is just one year in that four year cycle. It is more often the first, but could be the second, third and / or fourth year.
    However, given the black and white view expressed by the PRTB on the matter, even though I don't agree with it and think they are wrong, I would say that the tenants are entitled not to give notice towards the end of the fixed term and should look to leave on the day with their deposit in full.

    Mebird,I see where you are coming from but the legislation provides for the minimum notice required, however a lease can not take a way from a tenant's rights but can only add to it. I think the PRTB believe that by specifying a date in the lease, a landlord is conferring on a tenant a right to leave on that date but as a lease can not take away from a tenant's rights,the landlord can not similarly rely on this date without the relevant notice and section 34 reason


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    #12
    mebird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭mebird


    sophia25 wrote: »
    I think the PRTB believe that by specifying a date in the lease, a landlord is conferring on a tenant a right to leave on that date

    I see where they are coming from and I still think notice is required, I won't continue to argue the point because even if I am right, it would be silly for a landlord to withhold the deposit, have the matter go to the PRTB and then dispute / appeal it. It is just not worth it.

    For the record, I think there are only one or two issues that are worth disputing or bringing to the PRTB. I still think the legislation is overly complicated and unnecessary.

    sophia25 wrote: »
    but as a lease can not take away from a tenant's rights,the landlord can not similarly rely on this date without the relevant notice and section 34 reason
    The landlord cannot rely on this date, but the tenant can ? Oops, i am debating the point again !!!;)


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